ideas for a werebear pc in an epic campaign?

[jhardin87]

i'm trying to build a werebear pc for an epic campaign. what would be the best way to optimize him for maximum kickassery?

[The Glyphstone]

What level?

[Goonthegoof]

I'd assume between 21 and 30 =P
Anyway you'll probably want black blood hunter from PGtF, it'll let you cast spells while in werebear form. Then you'll probably want to take 20 levels of wizard.
Also you'll probably want to be an infected lycanthrope (+2 instead of +3) and buy off the LA.

Alternately you could forgo the werebear part- assuming you're using an infected black bear, that's 8 ECL that could be going towards something more useful. If you like the bear idea there's about a thousand bearington bearman the bearbarian threads around here, turning into a bear isn't hard to achieve.

[Alleran]

Use level draining to get rid of those RHD, then level back up and take class level HD.

[flabort]

I don't know how many people try that trick.
On the same forum. Several times.

When you level up, you HAVE to take the racial hit-dice back! Level-drain-and-replace DOESN'T WORK. [/nerdrage]

Rather, I recommend a couple levels of Primordial Killer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10678820&postcount=291), which Bhu made for the huge Dinosaur project of LOTRfan. That requires you have racial hit dice to take, and a civilization that hasn't advanced passed the stone age (so, usually awakened or Neo-animal (also on that thread), or such). I'd count lycanthrope on an already somewhat primitive race (such as orcs, who wouldn't normally qualify, being too advanced :smalleek:) as being primitive enough to qualify, but your DM may not agree. And then buy off the LA, meaning you've cut away the whole 8 missing ECL holding you back. Sure, it's a melee class very focused on natural weapons, but you can supplement it with other classes.
Your DM may not allow homebrew, though, so...

[jhardin87]

well i'm looking for something a bit more combat focused for the character and i'll probably be spending most of my time in the hybrid form so i can onehand a greataxe while still leaving two of my natural attacks open. and apparently i'm mistaken on the whole meaning of epic level. basicly we will be around lvl 10 pc's but beefed up stats to make us monstrous for a very difficult campaign. i will be the first to admit i'm a noob so i'm just looking for some tips.

[Urpriest]

well i'm looking for something a bit more combat focused for the character and i'll probably be spending most of my time in the hybrid form so i can onehand a greataxe while still leaving two of my natural attacks open. and apparently i'm mistaken on the whole meaning of epic level. basicly we will be around lvl 10 pc's but beefed up stats to make us monstrous for a very difficult campaign. i will be the first to admit i'm a noob so i'm just looking for some tips.

If you're around lvl 10 then you won't have very many levels beyond the werebear ones. What type of bear is your werebear bear side? If it's the standard one from the monster manual then you've got six racial hit dice from being a bear, and a level adjustment of +2 or +3 (+2 if you became a werebear after being bit by one, +3 if you're a werebear naturally and can change shape whenever you want). So that takes up eight or nine levels. I'd probably put the rest in Barbarian for the strength boost from rage, or Warblade if you're using Tome of Battle.

[TheThan]

were-bear? there bear!

sorry had to be said.

[jhardin87]

lol ya i dont really have access to many sourcebooks other than the basics so i'm pretty much runnin off of homebrew. i was leannin pretty heavily towards barbarian with hopes of prestiging to the stormrider class off of D&DWiki

[Urpriest]

lol ya i dont really have access to many sourcebooks other than the basics so i'm pretty much runnin off of homebrew. i was leannin pretty heavily towards barbarian with hopes of prestiging to the stormrider class off of D&DWiki

One thing you might want to consider that only involves the Player's Handbook: instead of using a greataxe (especially one-handed, since that would mean it's a Medium-sized greataxe and you'd take a penalty to hit with it), take Improved Unarmed Strike. That way you get to attack unarmed (kicking or the like), plus both of your claw attacks and your bite. Don't worry about the low damage die, most of your damage will come from Strength and Power Attack.

[jhardin87]

One thing you might want to consider that only involves the Player's Handbook: instead of using a greataxe (especially one-handed, since that would mean it's a Medium-sized greataxe and you'd take a penalty to hit with it), take Improved Unarmed Strike. That way you get to attack unarmed (kicking or the like), plus both of your claw attacks and your bite. Don't worry about the low damage die, most of your damage will come from Strength and Power Attack.

it still seems like that would average out south of the D12 damage of the greataxe, besides couldnt i aveerage out the two hit with weapon focus or even just an ioun stone? especially since i tend to favor heavily enchanted weapons, and with the stormrider prestige i,ll be pumping out tons of elemental damage every time i rage

[The Glyphstone]

Greataxe does 1d12 (average 6.5) plus 1.5xStrength mod.

Your clawss do 1d8 (average 4.5) plus Strength mod, and you have two of them.

Total, the claw attacks are 2d8 (av. 9) plus 2xStrength - so your damage actually goes up when you use your claws, plus you have two chances to hit for half damage each rather than one all-or-nothing swing. Power Attacking with natural weapons is -1/+1, so no net gain/loss with regards to the 2-hander there either.

[jhardin87]

ok that makes sense. thankyou! :smallbiggrin:

[jhardin87]

wait, no. because in hybrid form you get the full attack claw/bite/axe so it would still be less

[Veyr]

Dip Druid for a Bear Animal Companion. Take Wild Cohort for another. If you can swing it, Paladin 5 and choose some form of Bear for your Special Mount. Be a Barbarian for Rage.

Max Bear Warrior (Complete Warrior) to turn into a Dire Bear while you Rage. Take 9 levels in Sentinel of Bharrai (Book of Exalted Deeds) for the ability to turn into a Dire Bear and Cavalry of Dire Bears 1/week. Levels in Animal Lord (Bear) (Complete Adventurer) are also desirable.

In short, you fight alongside a pair of Bears while riding a Bear, then you turn into a Bear who turns into a Bear with the Aspects of a Bear, and then you get so angry you turn into a Bear again. And then you summon the ****ing Bear Cavalry.

[The Glyphstone]

wait, no. because in hybrid form you get the full attack claw/bite/axe so it would still be less

Except you can't wield a greataxe in one hand unless it's a Medium Greataxe, in which case you are taking a -4 penalty to all your attacks with it. The Medium Axe does 6.5 average, the claw does 4.5 average...you're better off in every possible case losing the -2 damage for +4 to hit.

Though I did make an error in that if you're using a Large Greataxe and two-handing it, the Large greataxe does 3d6 damage (average 10.5). As long as your Strength is at least 18 though( which it will be in hybrid shape) double claws still wins out.

[Alleran]

Dip Druid for a Bear Animal Companion. Take Wild Cohort for another. If you can swing it, Paladin 5 and choose some form of Bear for your Special Mount. Be a Barbarian for Rage.

Max Bear Warrior (Complete Warrior) to turn into a Dire Bear while you Rage. Take 9 levels in Sentinel of Bharrai (Book of Exalted Deeds) for the ability to turn into a Dire Bear and Cavalry of Dire Bears 1/week. Levels in Animal Lord (Bear) (Complete Adventurer) are also desirable.

In short, you fight alongside a pair of Bears while riding a Bear, then you turn into a Bear who turns into a Bear with the Aspects of a Bear, and then you get so angry you turn into a Bear again. And then you summon the ****ing Bear Cavalry.
As amazing as that sounds, how would you go about fitting it into twenty levels? You'd probably have to drop the paladin levels, for one.

[jhardin87]

oh ok i see what your saying.

[Goonthegoof]

Really giving up the werebear part would be your best option. Just take a level of barbarian for rage, take the next 6 levels in whatever seems like a good idea (warblade or dungeoncrasher fighter would work well) then take 5 levels in bear warrior. You're now effectively the same thing except you have better HD, BAB, better class features and no level adjustment.
Then go into warshaper because it rules.

[jhardin87]

Really giving up the werebear part would be your best option. Just take a level of barbarian for rage, take the next 6 levels in whatever seems like a good idea (warblade or dungeoncrasher fighter would work well) then take 5 levels in bear warrior. You're now effectively the same thing except you have better HD, BAB, better class features and no level adjustment.
Then go into warshaper because it rules.

yes but i'm unfortunately extremely limited by my lack of sourcebooks and being dirt poor and unable to buy any. i,m pretty much limited to open source and homebrew.

[jhardin87]

and i just had a thought, if i took levels in frostrager, would the cold damage also aply to the natural bite attack?

[Veyr]

As amazing as that sounds, how would you go about fitting it into twenty levels? You'd probably have to drop the paladin levels, for one.
He did say it was an epic campaign. I didn't see any level given.

[Alleran]

He did say it was an epic campaign. I didn't see any level given.
Oh, I know. I'm just wondering how much of that you could fit into a pre-epic build. It would also help conserve those RHD and keep the ECL down. Epic level, after all, can mean anything from 21st level all the way up past 40th level (though I'd place my bets around about 25-30).

[Goonthegoof]

You could always try the unspoken method of sourcebook obtainage, it's not like there's really any other way to get 3.5 books these days.

[Urpriest]

He did say it was an epic campaign. I didn't see any level given.

Read beyond the first post. He doesn't understand what epic means (which is odd since it's in the core books). His campaign is around level 10.

[Veyr]

Read beyond the first post. He doesn't understand what epic means (which is odd since it's in the core books). His campaign is around level 10.
Sorry, I must have missed that.

Yeah, in that case... Werebear is a bad idea.

[jhardin87]

ya sorry i misunderstood my dm at first. we are not doing an epic campaign i guess she just used that word to describe it being cool or something. what we are doing is using alternative races from the monster manual and using heavily overclocked attributes. i just wanted to go lycanthrope because i really like bears lol. that way i can turn into a bear at will and still rock the hell out of melee combat (i would go druid but i really dont care much for the whole spell casting thing, i normaly play fighter or barbarian, and the druids a little squishy for my taste outside of wildshape). i will be the first to admit i'm pretty green when it comes to D&D so i'm really just looking for tips on how to work it. hell i could even run a lycanthropic minotaur if i wanted but i'm trying to keep it ballanced. and what do you mean by unspoken method of obtainage? bit torrent? i'm still trying to figure out exactly what all is open source and where the legality falls in all this. like would it be ok for someone to scan the pages for a class from a sourcebook they own and email it to me, or would that violate copywrite laws?

[Teln]

Druid 6. Bear animal companion. Take the Natural Spell feat. Wildshape into a bear. Use Natural Spell to cast Summon Nature's Ally III while wildshaped. Summon 1d3 bears. Repeat until you run out of third level spell slots. BEARS EVERYWHERE!

[Urpriest]

jhardin, you've mentioned several times that your DM is letting you use alternative races and boosted attributes. But without knowing the actual houserules in place it's hard to give you advice.

What it sounds like is that your DM is letting you play monstrous characters without having level adjustment. Is this correct? If so, what is your DM doing about racial hit dice (like those six bear hit dice from werebear)? If you don't tell us what rules are in place we can't help you.

[tonberrian]

Dip Druid for a Bear Animal Companion. Take Wild Cohort for another. If you can swing it, Paladin 5 and choose some form of Bear for your Special Mount. Be a Barbarian for Rage.

Max Bear Warrior (Complete Warrior) to turn into a Dire Bear while you Rage. Take 9 levels in Sentinel of Bharrai (Book of Exalted Deeds) for the ability to turn into a Dire Bear and Cavalry of Dire Bears 1/week. Levels in Animal Lord (Bear) (Complete Adventurer) are also desirable.

In short, you fight alongside a pair of Bears while riding a Bear, then you turn into a Bear who turns into a Bear with the Aspects of a Bear, and then you get so angry you turn into a Bear again. And then you summon the ****ing Bear Cavalry.

Also, be sure to use the spell Bite of the Werebear. You can use a staff of it since you've got Druid levels.

[Keld Denar]

Frostrager would actually work out VERY nicely. The improved UAS damage will give you damage comperable to what an actual weapon would give, and would free up both of your hands to make claw attacks with both. Plus, the rend it gives you, along with 1-2 punch, are just plain old sexy.

If you can, Warshaper (CWarrior) is a good direction to build as well, as is Fist of the Forest (CChampion).

I'd also recommend taking Steadfast Determination (PHBII). This'll boost your Will save by your Con score (instead of Wis), which will make you a tough cookie to charm.