AVATAR v ALIENS: STAT-OUT SMACK-DOWN!

[No brains]

I've seen this bomb dropped on two threads already, so I decided to plant it where nerds play in bomb-disposal suits! Let's end this once and for all!

If a xenomorph presence were to appear on Pandora, how would the planet fare in the face of the infection?

Let's first lay down some rules regarding this conflict. The Alien Universe is MUCH bigger than the Avatar Universe, so if we cite every Alien story, Aliens are psychic, bulletproof, soul-stealing shenanigists. Lets make this an honourable fight by limiting both franchises to their movies. Aliens can use footage, directors commentary, and any other facts just from Alien and Aliens. Same goes to Avatar, even though they only had one movie, Aliens just can't stand by itself without Alien, even if they are equally enjoyable films.

Now that we have the (re)sources for our combatants to draw from evened out, we still need to get both Na'vi and Aliens onto the same scale so that this is more an experiment than an argument. Example: Even though in Aliens the monsters can break down doors steel doors, it would help if we got a reasonable guess into how much force an Alien needs to both exert and withstand in order to achieve this feat. The same goes for Pandoran wildlife. We know Na'vi arrows can break through the windshield of a ship when aimed properly, but what does that mean? What extraordinary force would it take to glance at one degree off X thickness of Y material, but smash right through when shot right? Real world physics need not be the scale we use, but it is definitely a reliable and empirical one.

After we throw down our quotes and know-how, then we can get into that skating rink of speculation as to what exactly could happen. Aliens seem to be a species adapted to wiping out ecosystems, but Pandora has a semi-sapient ecosystem that adds another dimension to this encounter. Could the net react both quickly and accurately enough to contain the infection? Could it even tell what was happening clearly enough to do anything? Worse, could the Aliens subvert this net to their own means?

A last problem is if these rules are flawed. If I goofed and I contradicted myself, or if a conclusion is reached quickly under these specifications and an expanded rematch is wanted, we can switch these around.

Let's all have a good time respectfully discussing this and not giving the mods a blue streak of swears to scrub later. :)

[Primal Fury]

Xenomorphs steal souls? What??? :smallconfused:

[Marnath]

If I understand Pandora's ecosystem correctly, the aliens will be located with pinpoint precision pretty much instantly. Now, what happens next depends on how quickly the Na'vi and their goddess realize the full extent of the threat. If they immediately figure out that the aliens are a threat on a planetary scale, they'll probably bring all the hunters to bear against the threat that they can on short notice, with the possibility of those big cats or the hammerhead elephant things helping stomp aliens. If it goes that way, they win really fast unless the aliens started out in big numbers already.

If they don't appreciate the threat, they probably won't react in any real numbers at first. By the time they do realize the threat the aliens might have numbers enough to make eradicating them a seriously ugly proposition.

I vote for the former, as they seemed pretty perceptive to me.

[Jahkaivah]

I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

[Yora]

In Alien 3 the alien is incubated in a dog, which means that anything with a somewhat similar metabolism and a large enough size would do.
And pandora is choke full with megafauna. Drop one alien queen there and she can start spawning like there's no tomorrow. There are some nasty creatures on pandorra, but I don't think many of them can deal well with the acid blood and none seem to be as fast and agile as the aliens and facehuggers.
I think aliens will very soon become the dominant species.

[Lurkmoar]

I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

I fully endorse this option.

I say we just go with what's in the movies. Once enough facehuggers give sleeping Navis a face full of alien wong, I think the xenomorphs would have a fair shot at winning. Does Pandora endorse the Navi because they're so 'wonderful' or because they're the dominant species? If it's the latter, it would support the xenomorphs. At least, if I was writing the thing.

Then Ripley would drop by and nuke the whole place to get rid of the xenomorphs, declaring Pandora a lost cause.

[Forum Explorer]

I doubt the whole population of Pandora would get involved because I don't think the Aliens are a threat to the trees that control everything else.

So they would likely slowly kill a tribe before it finally asks for help.

I see the Xenomophs slowly becoming the dominate predetor but not managing to wipe out everything due to strength constraints and weird floating islands.

[No brains]

Xenomorphs steal souls? What??? :smallconfused:

There was this one short story about Aliens where the main character is 'reborn' as the alien that burst out of him.


In Alien 3 the alien is incubated in a dog, which means that anything with a somewhat similar metabolism and a large enough size would do.
And pandora is choke full with megafauna. Drop one alien queen there and she can start spawning like there's no tomorrow. There are some nasty creatures on pandorra, but I don't think many of them can deal well with the acid blood and none seem to be as fast and agile as the aliens and facehuggers.
I think aliens will very soon become the dominant species.

Remember that we are only using Aliens and Alien as sources for our data on this conflict. While Aliens becoming a parody of their hosts has become a staple of their lore, was this implied before the release of Alien3? I recall that the Aliens toy line had various Alien hybrids, but I don't know exactly when the creators decided that the traits of an individual alien are dependent upon their incubator.Good job picking Aliens. I knew you were smart! : D That's right. I'm biased...

I fully endorse this option.

I say we just go with what's in the movies. Once enough facehuggers give sleeping Navis a face full of alien wong, I think the xenomorphs would have a fair shot at winning. Does Pandora endorse the Navi because they're so 'wonderful' or because they're the dominant species? If it's the latter, it would support the xenomorphs. At least, if I was writing the thing.

Then Ripley would drop by and nuke the whole place to get rid of the xenomorphs, declaring Pandora a lost cause.

W.W.R.D.?

That's an interesting vague point you made there. Does Aewa (Sic) support the Na'vi specifically, or would it look upon the xenomorphs as a way to make the harmony of the world even more perfect? We should examine this closer. Have an internet.

[Teron]

Remember, the tree-mind only got involved when Mighty Whitey the hero Jake begged and told it that humans are monsters who "killed our mother" and are coming for it next. Somehow, I don't think any of the xenomorphs would do the same, and they have no reason to harm the trees at all. Judging by what failed to get a reaction in the movie, I think the xenomorphs could build up large numbers before the tree-mind reacts, if it ever does.

[No brains]

I doubt the whole population of Pandora would get involved because I don't think the Aliens are a threat to the trees that control everything else.

So they would likely slowly kill a tribe before it finally asks for help.

I see the Xenomophs slowly becoming the dominate predetor but not managing to wipe out everything due to strength constraints and weird floating islands.

The swordsage has a point! The humans in Avatar threatened the trees as much as anything else, which might have prompted the pressing of the I win planet button. If the Aliens don't mess with trees, the planet might not be hostile to them. Would killing every living thing they could and then going into hibernation cut off the way for the trees to get nutrients? Would they care/ notice? Interesting...

[Yora]

Also, tree overmind can only get the animals to stomp down everything in their path. Since aliens are very good climbers they can simply run up the next tree, where the giant birdies can't also get at them because of the branches. And I don't think there are that many giant monkeys and giant squirles on pandora. That's why the smurfs make their home up there in the branches I guess.
By running around on the ground the humans made it very easy for the six legged rhinos.

[Kato]

I... haven't exactly seen Avatar but I'd go with 'If there are enough Xenomorphs to begin with, Xenomorphs win.' Whatever the planet throws at them they are pretty extreme hunters. They can create offspring in a very short time. Hardly any wildlife or Navis stand a real chance in man to man one on one combat.

Though, I don't think the xenos' would limit themselves to the fauna so the trees would suffer either directly or indirectly and if they actually go at them with... planet magic or whatever they might have a chance. But it mostly depends on the number of aliens, I'd say. Given enough of them they could only be stopped by... well, nuking them from orbit. WWRD, indeed.Of course that's no option for Pandora.

[Worira]

Aewa (Sic)

No it isn't.

[Dr.Epic]

I'm actually trying to decide if this would be a worse crossover than Alien V. Predator.

[Flame of Anor]

I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

Let's do this, xenomorphs or no xenomorphs.

[No brains]

Also, tree overmind can only get the animals to stomp down everything in their path. Since aliens are very good climbers they can simply run up the next tree, where the giant birdies can't also get at them because of the branches. And I don't think there are that many giant monkeys and giant squirles on pandora. That's why the smurfs make their home up there in the branches I guess.
By running around on the ground the humans made it very easy for the six legged rhinos.

True tree tactics. Aliens are smart enough to know when they're getting clobbered, and can find lateral solutions to a task. The fauna of Pandora could smash down the trees to get them down, but I don't think they would resort to that. On the note of the monkeys, they are maybe about the perfect size to be hosts for drones, allowing an arboreal existence to be plausible.


No it isn't.
Oh. i was worried and was too lazy to look it up.


I'm actually trying to decide if this would be a worse crossover than Alien V. Predator.
It wouldn't have to try too hard to be better than Alien V. Predator: Requiem. That movie stunk so bad we went to see I am Legend right afterward to wash the taste out!

This also has the chance to be really cool because of the sci-fi biologies interacting... If you're a nerd...

[Dr.Epic]

It wouldn't have to try too hard to be better than Alien V. Predator: Requiem. That movie stunk so bad we went to see I am Legend right afterward to wash the taste out!

Wow! How bad did that film stink if you went to see I am Legend to experience something better? I never saw any of the films after Alien V. Predator.

[Draconi Redfir]

Requiem was actually really good.


Always i think it would be interesting to see what alien-pandorens would be like. most likely six-legged, and perhaps with antenna-like things that would allow them to connect with one another/the plants and animals. This means they could potentially turn the planets network against itself, either by spreading their influence, coordinating attacks on specific locations, finding any and all life within range of the network, or even possibly taking over the minds of any Na'vi linked up to the network and forcing them to make their way to the nest to be facehuged.


The Na'vi however do have two advantages; Arial power and arrows. Unless those bird-things managed to get facehuged somehow, the Na'vi could probably fly high above a large cluster of Aliens and pick them off with Arrows. Those things look like they could easily pierce even the Queens armor.

I don't think we would need to worry about the hammerheads being facehuged at least; their heads and necks are likely too large for facehuggers to get a decent grip on.

[Coidzor]

I say we just go with what's in the movies. Once enough facehuggers give sleeping Navis a face full of alien wong, I think the xenomorphs would have a fair shot at winning. Does Pandora endorse the Navi because they're so 'wonderful' or because they're the dominant species? If it's the latter, it would support the xenomorphs. At least, if I was writing the thing.

Well, unless the xenomorphs wouldn't be tied into its hive-mind structure at all, which it does seem likely that they would not be, and so they would just ruin Eywa's perfect little playground by killing everything that was.

And if they do join Eywa's perfect little playground... Well, that's a win for Eywa because now she controls aliens rather than them being just invaders.

[Traab]

This depends on a number of factors. The starting strength of the aliens, and how fast they are spotted and assessed by the navi. You mention that they wouldnt be hurting the trees, but try and remember what their hives looked like. It was like playing the zerg in starcraft. That organic material just creeps its way out and takes over an area. Not certain how far it can spread, or if it would even work outside of an enclosed area, but that stuff doesnt look healthy. So environmental impact IS there to some extent.

My vote goes against the aliens and for an eventual standoff. I dont think the aliens would do well in an open forest battle. They are good at hiding in plain sight and swarming attacks, but we saw just how many got mowed down by a group of marines with guns. This is in tight quarters, usually with less than 10 meters of firing space between them. I think the navi would mow them down in an open battle. I think the aliens would do well with taking prisoners to implant in ambush style battles. I dont think they have what it takes to assault their villages and take them down. Not without an absurd amount of drones to work with.

[chiasaur11]

Mowed down?

Official word is the aliens take multiple AP rounds to down. Not invulnerable, but these things are tough. Bows aren't smart guns or pulse rifles (Which, if one reads the specs, are some pretty nice guns.) Less kick, worse rate of fire, whole lot more frequent reloading.

When and if things start getting to critical mass, it ends as easily as it did for Hadley's hope.

Only question is if they reach critical mass. Which they might not, assuming there's a fundamental "not right" vibe infested victims give out.

On the other hand, I doubt there is. These things are built to look harmless for the incubation period. Even a quick glance at X-Rays didn't quite give the tip off (although, admittedly, that was a case of sabotage.) Things start getting bad, they will get worse, and none of the fast and dirty cleaning methods typically used will work.

[Primal Fury]

There was this one short story about Aliens where the main character is 'reborn' as the alien that burst out of him.
I am incredibly intrigued. Where might this story be?

[Coidzor]

Mowed down?

Official word is the aliens take multiple AP rounds to down. Not invulnerable, but these things are tough. Bows aren't smart guns or pulse rifles (Which, if one reads the specs, are some pretty nice guns.) Less kick, worse rate of fire, whole lot more frequent reloading.

Well, considering it only takes multiple rather than an inordinate amount of ordinance, it's still possible to mow them down, one just needs a longer kill corridor than if it only took one or two.


On the other hand, I doubt there is. These things are built to look harmless for the incubation period. Even a quick glance at X-Rays didn't quite give the tip off (although, admittedly, that was a case of sabotage.) Things start getting bad, they will get worse, and none of the fast and dirty cleaning methods typically used will work.

They have a mindraping hivemind of trees that control, monitor, and protect the environment of Pandora, not to mention tap into the nervous systems of all native multicellular lifeforms. I think those might be just a little bit more sensitive to the not-rightness of what's going on.

[Solaris]

Humanity bombards the planet with relativistic kill vehicles until the surface is rendered into magma, thus ending the possibility of freaky Xenomorphed-Na'vi (or other Pandoran lifeform, Xenomorphs aren't picky). It's the only way to be sure.

Pandora vs Aliens: Whoever loses, we win.
Before anyone gets terribly upset, I want them to recall the absurdity of the thread to begin with.

[chiasaur11]

Humanity bombards the planet with relativistic kill vehicles until the surface is rendered into magma, thus ending the possibility of freaky Xenomorphed-Na'vi (or other Pandoran lifeform, Xenomorphs aren't picky). It's the only way to be sure.

Pandora vs Aliens: Whoever loses, we win.
Before anyone gets terribly upset, I want them to recall the absurdity of the thread to begin with.

I'm offended and upset!

That humanity left a planet existing at the end of the bombardment. Poor showing, humans.

[Marnath]

I'm offended and upset!

That humanity left a planet existing at the end of the bombardment. Poor showing, humans.

Ah, don't forget that really expensive mineral they want, gotta leave that intact. :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

Ah, don't forget that really expensive mineral they want, gotta leave that intact. :smallwink:

Easier to get that from an asteroid field than a planet where you can't breathe or work safely and wants to kill you anyway.

[Traab]

Ah, don't forget that really expensive mineral they want, gotta leave that intact. :smallwink:

Pull a draneor. Shatter the planet into several massive chunks, the explosion would wipe out all but a fraction of life there, leaving behind those delicious delicious minerals that our world deserves. Im sure that the earth in that movie land had the technology to fracture a planet without obliterating it.

[Marnath]

Easier to get that from an asteroid field than a planet where you can't breathe or work safely and wants to kill you anyway.

Maybe it's fragile/unstable? Why would they try to take the locals in a battle instead of just doing the orbital bombardment unless it would ruin their loot?

[chiasaur11]

Maybe it's fragile/unstable? Why would they try to take the locals in a battle instead of just doing the orbital bombardment unless it would ruin their loot?

Because they're stupid?

I mean, they use mechs in combat.

Mechs with knives.

[No brains]

Before anyone gets terribly upset, I want them to recall the absurdity of the thread to begin with.

This is a blanking Roleplaying Forum! Absurdity is our blanking currency! Blanking catgirls get blanking blanked all day here! What the blank do you talk about here to consider this piece of blank blanking absurd!?

:smallsmile:

[Lurkmoar]

This is a blanking Roleplaying Forum! Absurdity is our blanking currency! Blanking catgirls get blanking blanked all day here! What the blank do you talk about here to consider this piece of blank blanking absurd!?

:smallsmile:

Um... it's the media discussions area though. :P

Not that Hollywood Science! is terribly accurate. I mean... the Core came from there!

[Coidzor]

Maybe it's fragile/unstable? Why would they try to take the locals in a battle instead of just doing the orbital bombardment unless it would ruin their loot?

Presumably there was some reason they didn't just exterminate the Na'vi from the get-go as well. Indeed, I imagine that was part of it, as well as the novelty of finding a life-bearing planet.

Generally though, you need an atmosphere for something to combust, which is what the whole floating islands thing seemed to think was the concern, so cracking the planet would take care of that pesky problem as well as eliminate much of a need to worry about xenomorphs or pandorans mucking things up. Sure, some of it might be ruined, but most of it is in discontinuous pockets in the crust, apparently, so a good amount of it should survive.

[No brains]

I am incredibly intrigued. Where might this story be?

Sadly, I don't know. I remember wikipedia saying it exists, but not what it was...

Also, quit jackin' mah thread! Git outta here you robot avatars and whatever Coidzor is supposed to be!

I want ideas for battlefields, tactics, and the intelligence involved in a war between two theoretical biologies directed by James Cameron!

[Coidzor]

Because they're stupid?

I mean, they use mechs in combat.

Mechs with knives.

<_<

>_>

Can I change my answer?


Also, quit jackin' mah thread! Git outta here you robot avatars and whatever Coidzor is supposed to be!

I want ideas for battlefields, tactics, and the intelligence involved in a war between two theoretical biologies directed by James Cameron!

Really, the question at that level doesn't matter, unless someone is really going to put forth a strong argument that the Na'vi have to take special steps to harm the xenomorphs at all.

And, well, Eywa does not seem to be very tactically minded, that's about all I can say about it, since the Aliens always seemed like chimp-level at their best and movie-monster/clever dog the rest of the time. So, I think it mostly comes down to whether or not she's going to tap into the consciousness of any aliens spawned from pandoran fauna. If Eywa is able to do so, the aliens are fractured or basically just get assimilated into the ecosystem if she finds them pleasing as tools or toys. If this is post expulsion of the humans (which I believe we're assuming? or are we assuming a Pandora if humanity never existed?)

The Na'vi are only bit players in all of this, anyway, since they're but one small part of the ecosystem protection system, and seem quite unlikely to respond quickly enough for their involvement alone to stem the tide.

...Also, I wanna sig that now...

[Marnath]

Because they're stupid?

I mean, they use mechs in combat.

Mechs with knives.

Which he was only using because his 30 millimeter automatic cannon was broken. But yeah, it had a bayonet on it so I'm not sure that counts against your point.

[The Glyphstone]

Has anyone yet noted that Sigourney Weaver is also in both movies, in addition to them being James Cameron creations?

[Marnath]

Has anyone yet noted that Sigourney Weaver is also in both movies, in addition to them being James Cameron creations?

You say that like it's not a given. Why wouldn't she be in it? He'd be a fool not to at least ask. :smalltongue:

[Mr.Bookworm]

Because they're stupid?

I mean, they use mechs in combat.

Mechs with knives.

The mechs are analogous to the power loader from aliens. It seems pretty clear that none of their vehicles are military issue, and are instead civilian craft with weapons bolted on. Hence why they strap knives onto their mechs.
And why their plan in the climax involves pushing a big bundle of explosives out of the bay in a cargo hauler.
Not to mention that it looks silly, but having a close-combat weapon handy in a hostile environment filled with fast, mobile predators is a really, really good idea.

On the actual topic, the aliens get it. They're probably the stealthiest thing on the planet, and they're not exactly slow. And more lifeforms hanging around just means more chestburster targets.

[Coidzor]

Has anyone yet noted that Sigourney Weaver is also in both movies, in addition to them being James Cameron creations?

Or how she was hotter as an old redhead than as a young brunette? :smallconfused: Which makes me very confused.

[No brains]

Really, the question at that level doesn't matter, unless someone is really going to put forth a strong argument that the Na'vi have to take special steps to harm the xenomorphs at all.

And, well, Eywa does not seem to be very tactically minded, that's about all I can say about it, since the Aliens always seemed like chimp-level at their best and movie-monster/clever dog the rest of the time. So, I think it mostly comes down to whether or not she's going to tap into the consciousness of any aliens spawned from pandoran fauna. If Eywa is able to do so, the aliens are fractured or basically just get assimilated into the ecosystem if she finds them pleasing as tools or toys. If this is post expulsion of the humans (which I believe we're assuming? or are we assuming a Pandora if humanity never existed?)

The Na'vi are only bit players in all of this, anyway, since they're but one small part of the ecosystem protection system, and seem quite unlikely to respond quickly enough for their involvement alone to stem the tide.

...Also, I wanna sig that now...

Be my guest, be my guest BEEEE MY GUEST!

In this thread we're ignoring humans. If it doesn't have carbon fiber or fiber glass or carbon fiber glass in it, it's not being considered here.

One thing I wonder is if Aewa can control the Na'vi rather than just make suggestions to them. And after that, is Aewa strong minded enough to override the Alien's hive mind? There are a few possibilities here.

1. Aewa insta-win. The Aliens inherit the ability to tap the net, but are instantly subverted to the will of the planet.

2. War for dominance. The Aliens can tap into Aewa, but are not subject to its control. Aliens are very adaptable and could maybe even evolve to hack Aewa, making hosts not react to them as if they were dangerous or flat out dominating them and walking them into the nest to take a nap.

3. Fog of War. The Aliens cannot tap Aewa at all and attack as they always would. Discussed earlier was the possibility that Aliens would take to living in trees due to their climbing ability, terrain advantages over mega fauna, and the availability of more vulnerable monkey hosts. In this scenario we find the battle that only the Na'vi could fight because no mounts could follow them into the tightness of the trees. Even in this scenario, the Na'vi have a possible recon advantage with Aewa giving them the location of any existing hives.

So as it looks, in two out of three scenarios, Na'vi have the advantage. This is likely to boil down into a test of racial might. The Aliens may have the mobility advantage, given their superior climbing and communication abilities, but if Na'vi bows are guaranteed to kill them, this might not count for much.

While both races are superb stalkers, the Aliens fare a little better because they are known to ambush from multiple angles at different times, possibly negating the enemy's edge in firepower.

When the fight moves in close, I think the Aliens have the edge. Their tongues can pierce army helmets, and their blood eats through matter fast. While Na'vi have been seen picking up and tossing humans, the Big Chap as it was then called then, sent Parker, a rather large man, flying with a whip of its tail. If a Na'vi is caught off guard and unarmed, they most likely won't be able to bash down an armored drone and will probably die. If armed in melee, they still stand a large chance of dying with their foe.

The way I see it, if the Aliens can keep the casualty ratio at around 1:1, they may win due to their higher reproductive rate. If the Na'vi can keep their range and/or hit the hive early, they stand a better chance of victory.

Lastly, what IS that avatar of yours?:smallsmile:

[Forum Explorer]

I doubt the planet will get involved. Remember it only acted when one guy was crazy enough to beg for help and it was a direct threat to the planet's brain.

[No brains]

Then Alien wins!

For the creatures in Avatar to win, they would need psychic-accurate initiative and knowledge that the Aliens will wreck everything. Since Aewa doesn't get involved unless extreme peril is blatantly obvious, the threat the hive poses is grossly underestimated. The adaptable killers subsume the ecosystem by preying from the trees on smaller fare, climbing and hiding until a more forceful strike is prudent.

Thread over, man! Thread over!

[Trog]

This is a very interesting discussion, I have to say.

The issue of whether or not Aewa would get involved is interesting to speculate on. Being as we are only going off the movies listed in the OP and not any other side material or whatnot (which I don't know/care about anyway) Aewa seems to act like the body's self defense mechanisms, deploying animal life like white blood cells fighting off an infection. So as soon as it became apparent that the Aliens were destructive to their environment (coating it all with mucus and uh... hanging Geiger paintings and such) then there might be a localized response. How much feedback could be given to Aewa is uncertain since in the only case of this happening that we have this worked. Hard to say if such a response would work every time or not.

Ae'wa aside, for sheer muscle mass the Na'vi win hands down, being so large (unless we are talking a queen here). The aliens seem to have the edge in ferocity. Beyond all this the Na'vi have cavalry and air support and ranged weapons. The aliens do not. This is a huge advantage, militarily as any read though history will point out time and again.

So final outcome of this goes to the Na'vi I'd say. Again this is all based on the movies mentioned in the OP. The aliens' technology wasn't shown in action in those movies so it's difficult to say.

[No brains]

This is a very interesting discussion, I have to say.

The issue of whether or not Aewa would get involved is interesting to speculate on. Being as we are only going off the movies listed in the OP and not any other side material or whatnot (which I don't know/care about anyway) Aewa seems to act like the body's self defense mechanisms, deploying animal life like white blood cells fighting off an infection. So as soon as it became apparent that the Aliens were destructive to their environment (coating it all with mucus and uh... hanging Geiger paintings and such) then there might be a localized response. How much feedback could be given to Aewa is uncertain since in the only case of this happening that we have this worked. Hard to say if such a response would work every time or not.

Ae'wa aside, for sheer muscle mass the Na'vi win hands down, being so large (unless we are talking a queen here). The aliens seem to have the edge in ferocity. Beyond all this the Na'vi have cavalry and air support and ranged weapons. The aliens do not. This is a huge advantage, militarily as any read though history will point out time and again.

So final outcome of this goes to the Na'vi I'd say. Again this is all based on the movies mentioned in the OP. The aliens' technology wasn't shown in action in those movies so it's difficult to say.

Glad to have you join us! I would like to politely refute your arguments, if you don't mind. :smallsmile:

I discounted the Na'vi's (grammar, huh?) cavalry bonuses because the xenomorphs would take quickly and easily to an existence in either the canopy or understory, far out of the reach of the bigger an nastier allies the Na'vi could have. The raptors have large gliding wings, not the short flapping wings needed to fly effectively in all the branches. The Aliens don't need to worry about big red or thanators until they are ready to go 'siafu' on them.

Na'vi do indeed have a respectable advantage from their bows, but Aliens don't like to fight in a way that make bows useful. Aliens like to take cover and ambush their targets. If my arboreal existence theory holds up, the Aliens can fight in three dimensions with lots of cover and concealment, even using a main force as a distraction or temptation for archers to divert their attention while a secondary assault moves into flanking position, as seen in Aliens.

On the issue of physical might, the issue gets dicey. It seems the Aliens have the ability to close into melee, but are they able to do anything? In Avatar, we see Na'vi perform feats of strength like throwing humans, but I don't remember being able to bash through metal like Aliens can. Another point is that Na'vi have rather human-like physiology, so they don't have any natural weapons. A knife or spear will invite a mutually lethal disgorgement of acid. If the Na'vi had the presence of mind to try to throw the Alien, could they? Aliens are of great might themselves, hauling a fully armored marine stories straight up at shocking speed.

As for Aewa's "I win button", it has not yet been established that non-Jake Na'vi would plead for planet's aid. They dragged their feet to ask when humans bombed their big tree. Also, there isn't any evidence either way that the planet would choose to reject the new species. We don't know if the planet would regard the creatures as an unusual threat as regular predation seems to exist.

I think if we are to settle our differences like real dorks, we should establish if the terrain can indeed be used to the invader's benefit, the comparative forces the species seem to exert, and a solid theory on how Aewa would react to what could appear to be a mere successful predator.:smallamused:

[Trog]

Ah I see so the Aliens would act in a more assassin-type way, basically. As to the issue of Aliens in canopies I seem to recall there's a lot of variety of sized trees on Pandora (skyscraper sized to normal sized) so that would depend.

Basically the aliens, to use their most effective stealth tactics, would have to strike the Na'vi where they live. In the case of the skyscraper-sized tree dwelling types the aliens would have to ascend the tree which would no doubt be covered by Na'vi with bows and arrows and the dragon/pteradon things. The aliens would take heavy losses trying to take this position and the Na'vi can easily evacuate by flying off if overrun.

So the bows would still be useful. Just because the Aliens don't like to fight in a way that leads them to taking arrow fire (i.e. close quarters) doesn't mean the Na'vi can't set it up so that they will have no choice but to do just that in order to inflict losses on them.

Given the acid problem in close quarters it would make the moss sense to simply use their brute strength to break bones or exoskeleton or whatever it is that aliens have. But even with the issue of acid blood if a Na'vi is spilling it then they both might end up dead from their close quarters lethal struggles and, at best, you have a tie with a mutual death.

It's the Na'vi's ability to take out the aliens from afar (as well as controlling the battlefield by being the defenders to the alien's stealth attacks on their home territory that give them the winning edge. Aliens would inflict damages on hunting parties though, surely. But in attacking their homes the advantage is with the defenders.

[Draconi Redfir]

Aliens ae immune to their own blood, as expressed in AVP.

They could also climb up one side of the tree while a secondary force climbs the other side to sneek around behind the Na'vi.


I think one issue we are forgetting is that Aliens adopt the DNA of the host spicies, so any streangth and dexterity the Na'vi have, will quickly be had by the Aliens. Those carbon-fiber bones? now become carbon-fiber exoskeletons.

[Trog]

Aliens ae immune to their own blood, as expressed in AVP.
Yes but they are stabbed and bleeding currently is what I meant. If an Alien is bleeding it's bad on both sides in close quarters, basically because the blood injures and the alien needs to be injured to have the blood be an issue. Injuries all around.

They could also climb up one side of the tree while a secondary force climbs the other side to sneek around behind the Na'vi.
Could, yes. Again we get into the entire breadth of human on human combat scenarios and strategies, basically. Distance weapons still hold a distinct advantage. Flight holds a distinct advantage. The aliens don't have these.


I think one issue we are forgetting is that Aliens adopt the DNA of the host spicies, so any streangth and dexterity the Na'vi have, will quickly be had by the Aliens. Those carbon-fiber bones? now become carbon-fiber exoskeletons.
I don't recall that being mentioned in the first two films which I thought was what was agreed on. But if we take that into account things get interesting indeed. :smallamused:

[Marnath]

Re: acid blood against the Na'vi.... keep in mind gentlemen that 'close-quarters combat' between a spear wielder and an alien will be a lot farther than it seems, because a creature as tall and lanky as a Na'vi is going to have a seriously long reach with an appropriately sized spear. How many feet does this acid blood gush when it comes out? Enough to reach the distance?

[Sacrieur]

The Na'vi have been dramatically overplayed in completely unrealistic ways. Arrows going through bullet proof glass? Sorry, not even BALLISTAS can get through military grades of bullet proof glass-- which mind you are strong enough to repel RIFLE ROUNDS. Realistically, the Na'vi may be fairly strong, but they're no where NEAR the strength required to kick down huge thick steel doors.

Aliens on the other hand... Eek. They're just pure horror. They are strong enough to blow down thick steel doors. They have acid blood...

It's like I can't even envision this being any sort of conflict. It took a ludicrous number of tribes to take out a small number of military forces that had a blunder on the same scale as Custer. It's all of the oggling eyes going, "look how awesome the Na'vi are! They took down modern ****!" No, they took down idiots who went into unknown terrain poorly prepared with far too few men.

The US's modern military force would rape the Na'vi to shreds, and you want to talk about them going against Xenomorphs? You don't even need anything but a bunch of facehuggers. Dem bastards are fast.

[Trog]

The Na'vi have been dramatically overplayed in completely unrealistic ways. Arrows going through bullet proof glass? Sorry, not even BALLISTAS can get through military grades of bullet proof glass-- which mind you are strong enough to repel RIFLE ROUNDS. Realistically, the Na'vi may be fairly strong, but they're no where NEAR the strength required to kick down huge thick steel doors.

Aliens on the other hand... Eek. They're just pure horror. They are strong enough to blow down thick steel doors. They have acid blood...
This argument doesn't hold water. You can't say that what happens in one movie that is okay because you find it to be realistic while the other movie's unrealistic stuff isn't okay. The arrows went through what they went through. There is no exaggeration, it's what they are capable of and it was shown in the movie. All things shown in the movies have to be considered accurate and true. Because if you start down that path then we quickly get into "creatures with acid for blood aren't realistic" and then this whole thread falls apart.

[Sacrieur]

This argument doesn't hold water. You can't say that what happens in one movie that is okay because you find it to be realistic while the other movie's unrealistic stuff isn't okay. The arrows went through what they went through. There is no exaggeration, it's what they are capable of and it was shown in the movie. All things shown in the movies have to be considered accurate and true. Because if you start down that path then we quickly get into "creatures with acid for blood aren't realistic" and then this whole thread falls apart.

So the Na'vi's arrows supply more force than rifles? In that case the Na'vi can punch through several inches of steel, pick up and throw cars, knock over trees by kicking them, etc...

That's fine if you want to go that direction, but then you still have to deal with the facehuggers. Dem buggers are fast. Really fast.

---

And acid is perfectly realistic, I dunno what you're talking about.

[Trog]

So the Na'vi's arrows supply more force than rifles?
As I said the film shows what they are capable of. I'm not making these claims I'm pointing to movie "facts" that we all must accept as documented truth for the purpose of these arguments.

In that case the Na'vi can punch through several inches of steel, pick up and throw cars, knock over trees by kicking them, etc...
I never claimed this. Nor did the movies, iirc. Therefore this is strawmanning.

That's fine if you want to go that direction, but then you still have to deal with the facehuggers. Dem buggers are fast. Really fast.
Their lethality isn't in their quickness, it's in their ability to latch onto a creature's face and impregnate them. Against a human it's a lethal opponent. Against a much stronger and larger creature it will surely pose a lesser threat.
And acid is perfectly realistic, I dunno what you're talking about.
I accept it as being realistic because it exists in the movie, yes. As I said pointing to a specific proven "truth" in the movies and saying "This is an error in the reality we are discussing" doesn't hold water. Or rather it opens up a whole OTHER discussion on the realism of these creatures in the first place. And I'm not going there.

[Coidzor]

^: Also, Na'vi seem to be much more agile and fast than humans to boot. so stronger, faster, tougher than humans.


Aliens ae immune to their own blood, as expressed in AVP

I think one issue we are forgetting is that Aliens adopt the DNA of the host spicies, so any streangth and dexterity the Na'vi have, will quickly be had by the Aliens. Those carbon-fiber bones? now become carbon-fiber exoskeletons.

Which should negate much of the advantage of their exo-skeletons in regards to their acid if they change what the exoskeleton is made out of.

[chiasaur11]

Which should negate much of the advantage of their exo-skeletons in regards to their acid if they change what the exoskeleton is made out of.

Nah. Exoskeleton varies by host, but it always keeps the immunity bit. Which is good for them, bad for everyone else.

[Traab]

A point about the eco system taking over the aliens thing, arent they already enslaved by the queen of the hive? That could cause an interesting tug of war. Perhaps even adding in a distance from the queen they can travel before her control wavers enough for the planet to take control. I just suddenly had a mental image of an empress being born, then having several queens to follow the drones into battle so they can stay under control. It would be like the zerg with overminds floating overhead.

[Sacrieur]

As I said the film shows what they are capable of. I'm not making these claims I'm pointing to movie "facts" that we all must accept as documented truth for the purpose of these arguments.

I never claimed this. Nor did the movies, iirc. Therefore this is strawmanning.

Their lethality isn't in their quickness, it's in their ability to latch onto a creature's face and impregnate them. Against a human it's a lethal opponent. Against a much stronger and larger creature it will surely pose a lesser threat.
I accept it as being realistic because it exists in the movie, yes. As I said pointing to a specific proven "truth" in the movies and saying "This is an error in the reality we are discussing" doesn't hold water. Or rather it opens up a whole OTHER discussion on the realism of these creatures in the first place. And I'm not going there.

It's not a strawman, because it's my own position that I have not attacked. Like I said, the only conceivable way for that to happen is if they can do all of that other things as well. It's incredibly inconsistent to go, "Well, they can shoot arrows with enough force to go through military grade bullet proof glass, but they can't perform any other tricks of similar strength."

---

I think we're all looking over something here. Creatures impregnated give birth to xenomorphs that take on the traits of their hosts (i.e., predator xenomorphs are tougher than human xenomorphs). If we're playing by that, a Na'vi Xenomorph would be all as bit as powerful, agile, and fast as the Na'vi, if not more.

[Marnath]

I think we're all looking over something here. Creatures impregnated give birth to xenomorphs that take on the traits of their hosts (i.e., predator xenomorphs are tougher than human xenomorphs). If we're playing by that, a Na'vi Xenomorph would be all as bit as powerful, agile, and fast as the Na'vi, if not more.

And it would never happen, because they move too fast, can propbably rip them off their faces since they're stronger than us, and they are tall enough that there's some question of can face-huggers jump ten feet?

[Lurkmoar]

And it would never happen, because they move too fast, can propbably rip them off their faces since they're stronger than us, and they are tall enough that there's some question of can face-huggers jump ten feet?

Simple, the Na'vi could get sucked in the same way poor Dallas did in the original Alien film, finding an egg.

[Sacrieur]

And it would never happen, because they move too fast, can propbably rip them off their faces since they're stronger than us, and they are tall enough that there's some question of can face-huggers jump ten feet?

The young, the sick, the elderly? Are they as capable? And the xenomorphs can impregnate other animals too.

[Trog]

It's incredibly inconsistent to go, "Well, they can shoot arrows with enough force to go through military grade bullet proof glass, but they can't perform any other tricks of similar strength."
The're using bows to generate that force. Give a human an arrow and tell him to walk up and put it through a piece of wood and they couldn't do it. Nock that same arrow in a bow and it can be done. Simple machines ftw.

For an example (and this is just spitballing, here) if a Na'vi bow and arrow was the equivalent of, say, a ballista at up to, say, 1700 ft/lbs that's in the same range as an AK-47 (1500-2000 ft/lbs), give or take. There's various thicknesses of bullet resistant glass and some levels cannot take that kind of force. Some can. We get into a lot of speculation as to just how good the glass is, how much force the Na'vi bows can generate, what material they arrows are made from and that material's strength, etc., etc. Also most bullet resistant glass can only take so many hits before it loses the ability to stop bullets, too. But perhaps there were incidents in the film I am not remembering offhand. Anyhow the point was that whatever type of defenses the humans brought with them the Na'vi could, on occasion, penetrate it.

And anyhow we know that bullets do go into aliens just fine and aliens don't have bullet proof glass the last time I checked so this conversation about the glass is sort of pointless in a way.

EDIT: Also, the last time I checked facehuggers weren't the aliens' front line of attack. They were there for reproducing done in controlled environments behind enemy lines, if you will, so bringing face huggers into a discussion of all-out war is sort of silly. Like dropping babies into catapults. Sure they could hurt you but that's not what they're there for. :smalltongue:

[Traab]

The're using bows to generate that force. Give a human an arrow and tell him to walk up and put it through a piece of wood and they couldn't do it. Nock that same arrow in a bow and it can be done. Simple machines ftw.

For an example (and this is just spitballing, here) if a Na'vi bow and arrow was the equivalent of, say, a ballista at up to, say, 1700 ft/lbs that's in the same range as an AK-47 (1500-2000 ft/lbs), give or take. There's various thicknesses of bullet resistant glass and some levels cannot take that kind of force. Some can. We get into a lot of speculation as to just how good the glass is, how much force the Na'vi bows can generate, what material they arrows are made from and that material's strength, etc., etc. Also most bullet resistant glass can only take so many hits before it loses the ability to stop bullets, too. But perhaps there were incidents in the film I am not remembering offhand. Anyhow the point was that whatever type of defenses the humans brought with them the Na'vi could, on occasion, penetrate it.

And anyhow we know that bullets do go into aliens just fine and aliens don't have bullet proof glass the last time I checked so this conversation about the glass is sort of pointless in a way.

EDIT: Also, the last time I checked facehuggers weren't the aliens' front line of attack. They were there for reproducing done in controlled environments behind enemy lines, if you will, so bringing face huggers into a discussion of all-out war is sort of silly. Like dropping babies into catapults. Sure they could hurt you but that's not what they're there for. :smalltongue:

I dunno, I bet if they hatched a buttload of face huggers and sent them to a smaller encampment in the night, they could sneak their way into the bedrooms and attach themselves nice and fast. Also, to those talking about just ripping the huggers off themselves, they basically wrap their tails around your neck 3-4 times. Its like saying "Just rip the bottle cap off!" Its not that easy. As near as I can tell, they are like pit bulls, once they lock themselves into place, it takes a hell of alot to get them off. No clue on how long it takes for them to impregnate their target either. They may jam an egg down there within 10 seconds of wrapping themselves around your face. Give them another couple days and we might have a full camps worth of navixenomorphs. Then work from there.

[No brains]

The're using bows to generate that force. Give a human an arrow and tell him to walk up and put it through a piece of wood and they couldn't do it. Nock that same arrow in a bow and it can be done. Simple machines ftw.

For an example (and this is just spitballing, here) if a Na'vi bow and arrow was the equivalent of, say, a ballista at up to, say, 1700 ft/lbs that's in the same range as an AK-47 (1500-2000 ft/lbs), give or take. There's various thicknesses of bullet resistant glass and some levels cannot take that kind of force. Some can.

This bit about theorizing the power of Na'vi bows in foot/lbs is some of the good stuff I was talking about! While they can take an utterly dubious and fictitious route to get there (I'm not saying that they do, I just don't know the inherent limits of bowcraft) we want to take a good guess at just what the numbers would be behind the creature's feats of strength!

If it takes x force to penetrate a windshield at the right angle* then we need to compare it to the y force of of stuff that pierced Alien armor. So far, the things that have beaten Alien armor are massive overkill rounds and getting run over by a tank (APC). I don't trust the grappling hook Ripley shot at the creature in at the end as piercing its exoskeleton, even though it seems to have held onto it, because if it did break its skin, the hook would have just dissolved, unless acid doesn't work in a vacuum for some reason.

Without bows, I'm no convinced the Na'vi have a strength edge because a power loader couldn't crush the queen open (although this may be because it was indeed a queen) and Aliens seem to disregard human weight in both of their films. Also acid blood flies far and can still remain potent, as Vasquez shoots a xenomorph that is maybe two meters away from Duke and he still receives a lethal blast of acid.

In regards to the host adaptation trait, I'm still not sure if we should use that because it is not yet clear to me that the Aliens had that power in the first two movies. To decide if we are going to use this, we need to see a reference from something in the first two films that implies this. I do know that the Aliens toy line used this idea, but we have to see if that idea was put into action before the release of Alien3 and if that idea was inspired from something in the movies and not just a (really cool) marketing gimmick.

Interestingly enough, talking about glass DOES have something to do with this conversation as in Alien, the creature is a silicone-based life form that is even described as using chewed glass to mend a wound in the original script.

Thanks for giving me a fun conversation, everyone.:smallsmile: What's your your take?

(*recall that in the film, when the Na'vi shot their bows at the windshield of a ship from the ground, they glanced off, but broke through when shot from above)

[Flame of Anor]

It's all of the oggling eyes going, "look how awesome the Na'vi are! They took down modern ****!" No, they took down idiots who went into unknown terrain poorly prepared with far too few men.


See also: Ewoks vs. Imperial stormtroopers.

[chiasaur11]

See also: Ewoks vs. Imperial stormtroopers.

The forces in Avatar made the Storm Troopers look like a Patton/ Rommel team up special.

[Flame of Anor]

The forces in Avatar made the Storm Troopers look like a Patton/ Rommel team up special.

And again, everything I hear about Avatar makes me even less inclined to see it.

[Forum Explorer]

And again, everything I hear about Avatar makes me even less inclined to see it.

I liked it. But I'm very easily entertained and have the remarkable ability to ignore any messages that come out of a screen so that they don't ruin the enjoyment.

[Traab]

Im like that too. I dont look for hidden meanings in a story movie or anything else, I just enjoy things on their merits.

[Solaris]

And again, everything I hear about Avatar makes me even less inclined to see it.

You're probably better off that way.

[No brains]

And again, everything I hear about Avatar makes me even less inclined to see it.

These sentiments have inspired me to bring another factor into the battle: Who deserves to win?:smallsmile:

Just for a little bit, try to flush the information we've gleaned and let your prejudice show through. Whose victory tells the better story?

I'm gonna be honest: I favor Aliens in this argument. To me, Aliens is (referring to movie, my grammar is right) just more 'win' than Avatar. While Avatar did show a fair deal of imagination, it was mostly a mash-up of organisms and ideas that already existed. Alien and Aliens were about space-truckers in a 'used future' who get attacked by a man-raping parasite that is just totally... 'Alien'. It also displayed the pinnacle of 'man-in-suit' technology, creating and capturing a creature so strange it is easy to forget that it is still just a guy.

Now while I can just be lazy and blurt my racist conclusions, I still want to indulge my higher nerd by knowing what could really happen if these two met. I will get back to the real debate, but just for a recess, which team do you like more?

[Lurkmoar]

Now while I can just be lazy and blurt my racist conclusions, I still want to indulge my higher nerd by knowing what could really happen if these two met. I will get back to the real debate, but just for a recess, which team do you like more?

The Aliens from the Alien movie series. Why would liking the Aliens more then the Na'vi be racist?

[nyarlathotep]

Remember that we are only using Aliens and Alien as sources for our data on this conflict. While Aliens becoming a parody of their hosts has become a staple of their lore, was this implied before the release of Alien3? I recall that the Aliens toy line had various Alien hybrids, but I don't know exactly when the creators decided that the traits of an individual alien are dependent upon their incubator.Good job picking Aliens. I knew you were smart! : D That's right. I'm biased...


Um based on the size of the hole in the chest of the space jockey (not named in movie but its corpse was present) at the vary least host effects the size of the xenomorph if not the morph.

As for who wins if depends on how fast all of Pandora teams up against the invaders and whether xenomorphs can get the banshee's flight. Flying xenomorphs almost always equals a win for team bug.

[No brains]

HAY EVERYONE!!

Accordion to a previous draft of the script of Alien, the alien actually records a false log on the ship's computer after killing Ripley by imitating their voice! Pairing this with the original idea by Dan Obannon's friend of the creature "ing them (to get aboard a space ship without the crew noticing)!" I feel I can infer that [B]xenomorphs were always written with the ability to imitate their hosts.

This means any Alien that infects a Na'vi will have comparable/superior strengths and defenses of a Na'vi. What this means is that Aliens will probably get a bit of that 'naturally occurring carbon fiber' in their exoskeletons, making them 'very hard to kill' even by an armed Na'vi.

This also brings back the possibility of the Aliens interacting with Ey'wa. Now we need to discuss how that will pan out.

[Coidzor]

We've no real idea.

Ey'wa as a mindraping entity that controls all life on Pandora theory proponents have proposed three ways it'd go down, A. Ey'wa will just take control of the aliens in a net win for her and integrate them into her greater ecosystem plan without further disruption, B. the Aliens hack Ey'wa and take control of the entire planet's psychic will and so forth and don't even have any further resistance from anything that jacks into Ey'wa from that point on, and C. there's a fight that's not a curbstomp between Ey'wa and the alien queen that leaves some Pandora-based Xenomorphs getting subverted and others not.

Proponents of the idea that Ey'wa is lazy and doesn't really care unless she's directly threatened have mostly indicated that they believe she won't really care until they've been wrecking up the place, by which point there might not be any places left that they'd be jacking into or she could force jack them into or otherwise try to subvert them if she could.

[No brains]

What gets me thinking about the Ey'wa mind-rape theory is how Jake Sully interacted with it.

Was he turned to the side of the Na'vi on his own or did the beast slowly turn him? When did he first make contact to Ey'wa in the movie?

If Ey'wa is capable of subverting an alien intelligence, Sully is the the only model we have for that theory. It seems he was not conquered by it in an obvious way, but is there any indication that... I don't know... that every time he linked up to something, particularly a tree, he seemed to be more 'drugged' into loving Pandora?

[Forum Explorer]

What gets me thinking about the Ey'wa mind-rape theory is how Jake Sully interacted with it.

Was he turned to the side of the Na'vi on his own or did the beast slowly turn him? When did he first make contact to Ey'wa in the movie?

If Ey'wa is capable of subverting an alien intelligence, Sully is the the only model we have for that theory. It seems he was not conquered by it in an obvious way, but is there any indication that... I don't know... that every time he linked up to something, particularly a tree, he seemed to be more 'drugged' into loving Pandora?

That really makes the line 'I think of my avatar as my real body' a little more scary. :smalleek:

He was also constantly hooking himself in and not taking care of his real body.

[Yora]

Because the navi body had awsome legs.

[profitofrage]

People do realise that Ey'wa had no issue letting the humans tear up large chunks of her ecosystem in the begining of the movie?
In fact they even managed to to destroy a mega tree that I bet Ey'wa was real fond of with no consequences at all.
Indeed it was only after the human convinced it that anything occured at all.

That means that aliens could theoretically muster up a hive the same size if not much larger before she could do anything.
This coupled with the fact XenoMorphes (for proof about there morphing depending on the host..look up the definition of the NAME DAMBIT!! Look at the hole in the Space Jockeys chest? dude its clear thats what they do) would immitate or likewise take on Navi strengths...its pretty clear by the time the Navi learn of the true threat..it will be over.
Do also remember they wont be prepped for war either..they will be all like
"Oh man...the black devils..they haunt the jungles to the south...they steal children in the night...let us pray to Ey'wa that they dont come for us next"
*next night the swarm comes in to impregnate all of them.

[Mr. Scaly]

Because they're stupid?

I mean, they use mechs in combat.

Mechs with knives.

One mech with one knife, to be fair. And I think I remember reading somewhere that that was custom installed.

Anywho, apart from nuking Pandora into next week, in a one on one fight an Alien warrior is going to tear a Navi to pieces. They're bigger, stronger, more durable, and they bleed acid. I suppose arrows would be the best kill method but they'd need to get the kill in one shot before getting mauled by a counter attack.

[Coidzor]

Are they? I thought alien warriors were about 7-8 feet tall while Na'vi are 10-12 feet. :smallconfused:

[SaintRidley]

This coupled with the fact XenoMorphes (for proof about there morphing depending on the host..look up the definition of the NAME DAMBIT!! Look at the hole in the Space Jockeys chest? dude its clear thats what they do)

Just a note - morph derives from the Greek morphe, which means form. Not change.

The name doesn't tell us anything about their capabilities. It literally translates to "foreign form" and, with the appropriate adjustments to fit the ancient Greek inflectional system, would be a more than appropriate word for a denizen of Classical Greece to use to describe an alien from another world.


I'm interested in reading more of everybody's opinions regarding the xenomorph interaction with Ey'wa's link system.

[Flame of Anor]

Just a note - morph derives from the Greek morphe, which means form. Not change.

I'm glad someone pointed this out.

[Mr. Scaly]

Are they? I thought alien warriors were about 7-8 feet tall while Na'vi are 10-12 feet. :smallconfused:

*blinks* Are they really ten or twelve feet? Huh. Bigger than I thought. They died pretty easily to getting shot though. Shouldn't be too hard to kill.

[nyarlathotep]

Are they? I thought alien warriors were about 7-8 feet tall while Na'vi are 10-12 feet. :smallconfused:

Human aliens are, but the space jockey alien would have needed to be at least 20 feet tall.

[Coidzor]

Human aliens are, but the space jockey alien would have needed to be at least 20 feet tall.

So they're based on host size and if they make aliens using the monkey things, then they'll be small like the monkey things, right?

[nyarlathotep]

So they're based on host size and if they make aliens using the monkey things, then they'll be small like the monkey things, right?

Yes and if we allow alien 3 stuff they also gain the host's abilities. In the prior movies it could have been inferred but we don't see any proof on screen until the second movie. Up until then all we know for sure is transferred is the host's size. So na'vi 12 foot tall aliens, monkeys smaller 5 to 7 foot tall (judgin by the monkey's size relative to na'vi, the rhino thing produces huge 20 to 30 foot long aliens.

[Mr. Scaly]

They would get increased strength too. The 'Predalien' from AVP: Requiem was a lot bulkier and stronger seeming than the standard alien warrior. I remember it could physically overpower the hunter Predator, while in the first AVP movie they got tossed around by the predators.

[Hawkfrost000]

ummmmm...

First generation Xenomorphs (before spawning with Pandoran biology) all asphyxiate and die. they (ones in movies) are adapted to a earth standard atmosphere, not a Pandoran one and i cannot see them wearing exopacks.

however if they just introduced a bunch of eggs, and they almost instantly spawned with Pandoran fauna then idunno...

DM

[nyarlathotep]

ummmmm...

First generation Xenomorphs (before spawning with Pandoran biology) all asphyxiate and die. they (ones in movies) are adapted to a earth standard atmosphere, not a Pandoran one and i cannot see them wearing exopacks.

however if they just introduced a bunch of eggs, and they almost instantly spawned with Pandoran fauna then idunno...

DM

Um no.

Aliens are clearly shown to be able to survive without air for no inconsiderable periods of time. In the initial spacejockey ship there was little to no atmosphere and the spacehugger was able to jump and attack Kane. Additionally after being shoved out the airlock the alien in the first film was doing just fine and started climbing around on the ship until the it was killed by the ship's engines.

In short they likely don't need to breathe or at least not in the way humans do. Additionally silicon-based lifeforms with concentrated acid for blood likely have a different enough biology from humans that something poisonous to one is not necessarily poisonous to the other.

[Flame of Anor]

Um no.

Aliens are clearly shown to be able to survive without air for no inconsiderable periods of time. In the initial spacejockey ship there was little to no atmosphere and the spacehugger was able to jump and attack Kane. Additionally after being shoved out the airlock the alien in the first film was doing just fine and started climbing around on the ship until the it was killed by the ship's engines.

In short they likely don't need to breathe or at least not in the way humans do. Additionally silicon-based lifeforms with concentrated acid for blood likely have a different enough biology from humans that something poisonous to one is not necessarily poisonous to the other.

Also, in Aliens, the Queen rode all the way up to orbit in a (presumably depressurized) landing gear bay.

[No brains]

Been pretty quiet around here lately...

Another interesting point in their theoretical battle that I though up was the undermining of the trees the Na'vi live in. Even if the aliens weren't smart/ decisive enough to do it intentionally (are they burrowers in the first two movies or just later on?) a large enough zerg at a tree would leave acidic corpses to eat into the trunk, possibly toppling it. This acid can eat through several decks of spaceship, so this came up as a big concern in my mind.

[nyarlathotep]

Been pretty quiet around here lately...

Another interesting point in their theoretical battle that I though up was the undermining of the trees the Na'vi live in. Even if the aliens weren't smart/ decisive enough to do it intentionally (are they burrowers in the first two movies or just later on?) a large enough zerg at a tree would leave acidic corpses to eat into the trunk, possibly toppling it. This acid can eat through several decks of spaceship, so this came up as a big concern in my mind.

They're smart enough to cut power so I would assume they could understand how the tree works.

[Tiki Snakes]

Here's an angle that doesn't seem to have come up yet.

In the first movie or two, there is something of an implication that the Aliens are less hostile, or possibly even non-violent towards animals and maybe even young children. At the very least, Sentient Adults seem to be the only thing that genuinely motivates them.

This kind of ties in with the idea that they could be some kind of biological weapon.

So, with that in mind, how would that change the battlefield? It certainly seems a step away from them provoking the planet's wrath, if they are able to co-exist with the non-navi life-forms...

[No brains]

Here's an angle that doesn't seem to have come up yet.

In the first movie or two, there is something of an implication that the Aliens are less hostile, or possibly even non-violent towards animals and maybe even young children. At the very least, Sentient Adults seem to be the only thing that genuinely motivates them.

This kind of ties in with the idea that they could be some kind of biological weapon.

So, with that in mind, how would that change the battlefield? It certainly seems a step away from them provoking the planet's wrath, if they are able to co-exist with the non-navi life-forms...

Good point, Tiki, but you're off a little bit.

In Alien, the Big Chap (I heard that is what they called it during filming) avoided Jonesy the cat mostly because kitties are small enough to both cram themselves into areas the alien can't reach and they are only about the size of a facehugger themselves, making them nonviable as hosts. In the extended edition, when the Alien sees the cat inside its space pet carrier, it gazes at it for a moment before knocking it out of the way.

In Aliens, the smallness point comes up again. They simply can't reach Newt where she hides and so they do not pursue her. When an alien does get a hold of her, it doesn't harm her because it did not need to. A quick grab was enough to subdue the child outside of its familiar territory. If they plainly didn't attack children, why is it none of the other kids from the colony survived?

The first goal of xenomorphs in an attack is to procure hosts. If the candidate is an adult human capable of a damaging struggle, they might kill the person by accident. If something isn't big enough to make a suitable host, like a cat, it is ignored so long as it isn't directly in the path a good host.

That's my view anyway. Since the smaller animals on Pandora seem to be (from my best guess) at least as large as a human child, they will probably be fair game. An interesting issue exists on the other side of the spectrum where a creature could be too big to infect, rather than being too small. If this is the case, the mega fauna need to be captured when they are juvenile or wasted.

[Draconi Redfir]

There are three theories i know of regarding Alien origens.

The first is i believe from the directors commentary of the "making of" footage of the first Alien movie, perhaps the wiki i don't know. But somehow i heard one of the makers of the film saying something along the lines of "I (we?) Believe the aliens originated from this planet, and were once much more docile like humans. But then some catastrophe occurred, leaving only the young in the eggs alive" and possibly horribly mutated to make them more violent.

The second is something i read on Wikipidia about the aliens, in which the Aliens were artificially constructed by the space jockeys as biological weapons, they would bomb planets with Alien eggs, wait awhile for the entire planet to be culled, and then either use some space-jockey way to kill all the aliens, or simply wait for some preset small-lifespan timer that has since gone away to run it's coarse.

The third is my own theory. I believe that Aliens come from an extremely hostile planet much like Pandora, but on this planet they are perfectly in balance with the world around them, and do not have massive overpopulation or rapid spread as we see in the movies. It could even be that their natural "hosts" are creatures that require Alien impregnation in order to undergo puberty and be able to reproduce themselves. And since this is such a violent world, everything is killing everything else, preventing the aliens from getting out of control. So in short the Aliens aren't weapons or anything of the sort, just an extreme case of an introduced species gone wrong.

[nyarlathotep]

According to the comics/books the answer is sort of a mix of your personal theory and the space jockey one. The aliens are in a sense a natural species and the closest thing we see to "natural" xenomorphs are weird spider things, but they are being actively used by the space jockeys as weapons. The space jockeys may have engineered them but to what degree is unknown.

[H Birchgrove]

If the Navi were smart enough to swallow some pride, they could possibly make contact with Earth, and trade unobtanium in return for Earth weapons.

[Hawkfrost000]

If the Navi were smart enough to swallow some pride, they could possibly SELL THEIR SOUL TO SATAN, and trade unobtanium in return for Earth weapons.

FTFY

but seriously, how would they make contact with someone 4.5 lightyears away with stone age technology?

[nyarlathotep]

If the Navi were smart enough make a perfectly reasonable trading agreement with humans that weren't cartoon villain evil, they could possibly make contact with Earth, and trade unobtanium in return for Earth weapons.

but yeah repeating the "how?" issue. Besides they don't need anything earth could give them, that includes interstellar communication devices. :smallbiggrin:

[H Birchgrove]

but yeah repeating the "how?" issue. Besides they don't need anything earth could give them, that includes interstellar communication devices. :smallbiggrin:

I'm assuming someone - human or human-turned-Avatar - would have been smart enough to keep a radio. I'm also assuming such a radio would be able to communicate with Earth - or with the starship that may be only halfway or even less from Pandora.

[Hawkfrost000]

I'm assuming someone - human or human-turned-Avatar - would have been smart enough to keep a radio. I'm also assuming such a radio would be able to communicate with Earth - or with the starship that may be only halfway or even less from Pandora.

great so its only 2 years away, and thats assuming they even kept the radio, why would they do that?

[No brains]

I think I already posted this, but there seems to have been some error as I can no longer see it, so sorry if this is a double post.

This thread is about battle between Pandoran creatures and Aliens. Humans are out of the equation. Posters should only consider humans and their tech in terms of how either side fought against it.

Also, if the Na'vi cried for help, it wouldn't be their victory, would it?

[H Birchgrove]

I think I already posted this, but there seems to have been some error as I can no longer see it, so sorry if this is a double post.

This thread is about battle between Pandoran creatures and Aliens. Humans are out of the equation. Posters should only consider humans and their tech in terms of how either side fought against it.

Also, if the Na'vi cried for help, it wouldn't be their victory, would it?

Very well.

The Na'vis are toast, then. The Aliens may be primitive but in their own way they are more versatile than the stubborn Na'vi. :smalltongue:

(I disagree with your last sentence. History shows many times how old and proud civilizations had to use the methods of their new enemies in order to survive, or to co-operate with the enemy/enemies of their enemy, or simply buying rifles by whoever was willing to sell them.)

[Hawkfrost000]

(I disagree with your last sentence. History shows many times how old and proud civilizations had to use the methods of their new enemies in order to survive, or to co-operate with the enemy/enemies of their enemy, or simply buying rifles by whoever was will willing to sell them.)

...
you are applying the standards of a species to another one that follows a completely different evolutionary path and evolved 4.5 light years away?

[nyarlathotep]

...
you are applying the standards of a species to another one that follows a completely different evolutionary path and evolved 4.5 light years away?

Completely different evolutionary path? :smallconfused:

They are humanoid in shape, evolved from ape-like creatures, formed an animist religion, have consciousness similar to if not exactly the same as human, and oh right are close enough to humans genetically to make a hybrid. In short their evolutionary path seems to have gone rather close to humans because of how darn earth-like Pandora is.

[Hawkfrost000]

Completely different evolutionary path? :smallconfused:

They are humanoid in shape, evolved from ape-like creatures, formed an animist religion, have consciousness similar to if not exactly the same as human, and oh right are close enough to humans genetically to make a hybrid. In short their evolutionary path seems to have gone rather close to humans because of how darn earth-like Pandora is.

they have more in common with cats than monkeys. religion/conciousness is not evolution. you can hybridize anything if you can physicaly manipulate the genes (they have nanotech so im pretty sure they can). but here is my big problem with your statement:

Earthlike?????????????????

The high concentration of carbon dioxide in the Pandoran atmosphere makes it extremely poisonous to humans, rendering them unconscious in 20 seconds and causing death in about 4 minutes. The hydrogen sulfide present is also quite poisonous; concentrations over 1000 ppm (and it is about ~1% of the atmosphere) can cause immediate collapse with subsequent loss of breathing, even after inhalation of a single breath.

prime vacation spot you have there

the geology, flora, fauna, atmospherics, magnetic sphere, day-night cycle, orbital period (and the fact it orbits a gas giant), gravity and air pressure are all significantly different than that of earth.

the fact that their bodies are based on Amino Acids is more of a necessary plot device than a scientific fact.

DM

[nyarlathotep]

A rocky planet with earth-like planets and animals is earth-like. If the planet is similar enough to cause convergent evolution to the point that all Pandoran species are nearly identical to a given earth species I'd say it is earth-like.

How do they have more in common with cats than apes? They have thumbs, humanoid shape and movement, and have hominid-like teeth structure.

[Hawkfrost000]

A rocky planet with earth-like planets and animals is earth-like.

no, an earth like planet means a planet with about 1 gee of gravity, made of mostly silicon and oxygen with a smattering of iron and heavier elements. with an atmosphere of ~80% nitrogen ~20% oxygen and some other gasses.

that is not pandora

the atmosphere is so radically different that the fact that the animals of avatar are based on amino acids is only barely believable.


If the planet is similar enough to cause convergent evolution to the point that all Pandoran species are nearly identical to a given earth species I'd say it is earth-like.

yeah because there are a heck of a lot of earth animals that are hexapedal and bio-luminescent


How do they have more in common with cats than apes? They have thumbs, humanoid shape and movement, and have hominid-like teeth structure.

oh, (non prehensile) tails, fangs, pointed ears and a tendency to snarl at opponents.

thumbs are mandatory for any tool making species, but they do only have 4 fingers when almost any mammal has 5

but just look at them, the first think you think when you see them is cat.

[H Birchgrove]

...
you are applying the standards of a species to another one that follows a completely different evolutionary path and evolved 4.5 light years away?

We are talking about a film by James Cameron, who didn't have a problem with basing the culture of the Na'vi on Native Americans. :smallsigh: Now, had we been talking about Arthur C. Clarke's Rama novels or even the Martians in some of Robert A. Heinlein's novels, then you might have had a point. :smallamused:

[nyarlathotep]

the atmosphere is so radically different that the fact that the animals of avatar are based on amino acids is only barely believable.


That is exactly what I'm trying to get at. With how moon itself is the aliens should all be like things out of the Expedition or the Chtorr series. As it stands yes they glow and have six limbs but its not applied in any way to make them truly alien. It's all like the rigged forehead on klingons, just fluff.



oh, (non prehensile) tails, fangs, pointed ears and a tendency to snarl at opponents.

thumbs are mandatory for any tool making species, but they do only have 4 fingers when almost any mammal has 5

but just look at them, the first think you think when you see them is cat.


Chimpanzees have fangs and snarl at opponents, and lemurs have non prehensile tails. They only reason they seem cat-like is because their facial structure is specifically designed to evoke the imagery of a cat or dog. That all being said in the side material na'vi are specifically said to have evolved from those monkey looking things shown earlier in the movie.

[Fan]

no, an earth like planet means a planet with about 1 gee of gravity, made of mostly silicon and oxygen with a smattering of iron and heavier elements. with an atmosphere of ~80% nitrogen ~20% oxygen and some other gasses.

that is not pandora

the atmosphere is so radically different that the fact that the animals of avatar are based on amino acids is only barely believable.



yeah because there are a heck of a lot of earth animals that are hexapedal and bio-luminescent



oh, (non prehensile) tails, fangs, pointed ears and a tendency to snarl at opponents.

thumbs are mandatory for any tool making species, but they do only have 4 fingers when almost any mammal has 5

but just look at them, the first think you think when you see them is cat.

Yes.. There are a lot of animals that are bio luminescent and hexepedal.

They are called Insects, and they outer number humans a billion to one.

[No brains]

The talk of Na'vi interacting with humans detracts from the comparisons of biology that the thread was supposed to cover. We are not seeing the Na'vi so much as a human civilization, more as a specific element in the mean biology of Pandora.

Supposedly, Jim Cameron said the Thanator could eat the Queen Alien for lunch. If the Aliens could have fixed up a nice squad of warriors and hidden up in the trees from the ground-bound beast, I would be tempted to call BS.

Also, Jimmy saying that doesn't automatically give win to Avatar's monsters. I'm dubious toward creators really thinking hard about their creations (especially when the newer one could make them more money). Hell, I call the God guy a bozo on a daily basis!

To summarize, this is a cockfight with weird chickens. Not Rome vs Carthage.

[nyarlathotep]

Based purely on size and ability that giant rhino thing likely would beat the queen, well a human based queen. That being said in a properly operating hive the queen isn't out fighting on the front lines it's inside laying eggs.