3.5 Tier tweak for mid-magic settings

[paddyfool]

Hi all,

I'd like to suggest a kind of nerf for the tier 1 and 2s that has the side effect of fitting a setting better that's a little less high-magic than usual. The basic idea is to make all full-casting classes into prestige classes that require some training to enter. The entry requirements and other tweaks would go along the following lines:

-- Wizard: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks. (Entry postponed until level 4; I picked this with a view to gaining 9th level casting at 20).
--Cleric: Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks
-- Druid: Knowledge (nature) 6 ranks

-- Sorceror: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks. Also, gain bonus feats as Wizard, as compensation and fun.

- New feats: Gift of the arcane. Pick two cantrips. You may cast each of these 1/day with a caster level equal to your total hit die. Knowledge (arcana) is always a class skill for you. Gift of the Divine and Gift of the Wild do the same for Orisons from the obvious list and pertinent knowledge skills.

Entry into these classes therefore requires some application, and they become more aspirational goals for characters than what they start out as. But with a feat, they'd be accessible to any base class (and without that feat, they'd still be available for an appropriate base class, e.g. a Barbarian, Ranger, or Scout could get into Druid easily, a Paladin into Cleric, or a Factotum into anything).

A more limited spell list (without the more broken choices) would also fit a lower magic setting of this kind. Rarer and more expensive magic items might also be appropriate given that there'd be less people to craft them, without a plot justification (e.g. making it a setting where some force has selectively wiped out most or all spellcasters, but left what they'd crafted behind).

My main question, however: would this be worth a try, in your opinion? In particular, would taking levels in a full-casting class remain a fun option, if you had to spend two or three levels on something else first?

[JKTrickster]

You do know that the Bard is the only one who can be a Wizard/Sorcerer without a feat tax right? That's in core though, although out of core I would assume those classes can already cast some kind of magic.

[true_shinken]

Unearthed Arcana did this before you.

[erikun]

Unearthed Arcana only did Rangers, Bards, and Paladins, and assumed there would be full casting base classes. In fact, it was assumed you'd multiclass with the full casters to enter the prestige class.

As for the plan, I'm not sure it quite makes the adjustments you want it to. Grease or Entangle are just as effective at 6th level as they are at 1st. You'll be delaying some of the most abusive spells, but they'll still be there to full effect at the higher levels. Some spells, such as Sleep or Color Spray, end up rather pointless at the level you get them, and some like Flesh to Stone arrive several levels later than they are first needed.

Other than that, you might want to be a bit more specific with the feats. What is the DC for the "spells" gained? Are the spells from Gift of the Arcane Int-based or Cha-based? Are the Spell-Like Abilities, or are they actual spells? Do they need to be prepared? Are they subject to spell failure? Do they increase with caster level, and if yes, which ones? Stuff like that.

[paddyfool]

You do know that the Bard is the only one who can be a Wizard/Sorcerer without a feat tax right? That's in core though, although out of core I would assume those classes can already cast some kind of magic.

I'm OK with a one-feat tax.


As for the plan, I'm not sure it quite makes the adjustments you want it to. Grease or Entangle are just as effective at 6th level as they are at 1st. You'll be delaying some of the most abusive spells, but they'll still be there to full effect at the higher levels. Some spells, such as Sleep or Color Spray, end up rather pointless at the level you get them, and some like Flesh to Stone arrive several levels later than they are first needed.

Grease/Entangle: It'll still be a few levels before you can really spam them, but yeah, these will always be effective (although you might expect a higher proportion of opponents to be able to make the flat DC checks at later levels). Stone-to-Flesh would be hard to come by, it's true, but I'm OK with some magic being hard to come by.


Other than that, you might want to be a bit more specific with the feats. What is the DC for the "spells" gained? Are the spells from Gift of the Arcane Int-based or Cha-based? Are the Spell-Like Abilities, or are they actual spells? Do they need to be prepared? Are they subject to spell failure? Do they increase with caster level, and if yes, which ones? Stuff like that.

Clarification for Gift of the Arcane: Pick two cantrips from the Sorceror/Wizard spell list. You may cast each of these 1/day as a bard of a level equal to your total hit die (DC and other effects based on the higher of your Int and Cha scores). Knowledge (arcana) is always a class skill for you.

Alternatively, would it be better to base this in the racial SLA mechanics, do you think? (Caster level 1 SLA?)

[erikun]

It would probably be best just to make them actual spells, at caster level 1, until the player takes the appropriate class. The idea is that they'll learning how to cast spells early, correct? Then it seems kind of odd for a potential wizard to get started by naturally learning how to produce light without a spellbook - you'd think someone like that would become a sorcerer.

I'd say break up the feat (Gift of Arcane Study and Gift of Arcane Nature?) and then make the feats represent work towards the particular class. Gift of Arcane Study would grant two 0-level spell slots and two spells scribed in the character's spellbook, with the ability to prepare spells in those two slots. Caster level is 1 unless the character takes levels in the Wizard PrC, then it is equal to Wizard caster level. Knowledge (arcana) is always a class skill for the character, and they retain the extra two spell slots when the become a Wizard - granting then two extra spell slots compared to the normal caster.

Gift of Arcane Study would have the unusual prerequisite of requiring a spellbook, for obvious reasons, but the other feats would be functionally identical, giving an extra two 0-level spell slots.

[Curmudgeon]

I like the basic idea, as long as you retain the need for a spellbook for the Wizard class. You could just make it an entry requirement, with them retaining those couple of cantrips as if they'd had Spell Mastery.

This idea already exists with the Magical Training feat (Player's Guide to Faerûn, page 41). Just don't go above level 0 spells before class entry and you should be fine. (That means killing Precocious Apprentice.)

[paddyfool]

@Erikun,

I like that idea - thank you! Although, looking at it overall... having two spells to put in two slots as prepared casting is actually a tad weaker than the sorcerer's two spells and two slots of spontaneous casting, even before you factor in the spellbook. So they (and the would-be Cleric & Druid) can have a +2 skill bonus to the relevant knowledge checks as small compensation. Fair, do you think?

Gift of Arcane Study
Requirements: ownership of a spellbook
Benefits: You gain two level 0 spell slots and two cantrips from the Sorceror/Wizard list inscribed in your spellbook. You may cast these as a level 1 Wizard unless you have more than one level in Wizard, in which case your Wizard caster level applies. Knowledge(Arcane) becomes a permanent class skill for you and you get a +2 bonus on all Knowledge(Arcane) checks.

Gift of Arcane Talent:
Requirements: none
Benefits: You gain two level 0 spell slots and two cantrips known from the Sorceror/Wizard list. You may cast these as a level 1 Sorcerer unless you have more than one level in Sorcerer, in which case your Sorcerer class level applies. Knowledge(Arcane) becomes a permanent class skill for you.

Gift of the Divine:
Requirements: none (?holy symbol?)
Benefits: You gain two level 0 spell slots and two orisons known from the Cleric list. You may cast these as a level 1 Cleric unless you have more than one level in Cleric, in which case your Cleric caster level applies. Knowledge(Divine) becomes a permanent class skill for you and you get a +2 bonus on all Knowledge(Divine) checks.

Gift of the Wild:
Requirements: none
Benefits: You gain two level 0 spell slots and two orisons known from the Druid list. You may cast these as a level 1 Druid unless you have more than one level in Druid, in which case your Druid caster level applies. Knowledge(Nature) becomes a permanent class skill for you and you get a +2 bonus on all Knowledge(Nature) checks.

[erikun]

@Erikun,

I like that idea - thank you! Although, looking at it overall... having two spells to put in two slots as prepared casting is actually a tad weaker than the sorcerer's two spells and two slots of spontaneous casting, even before you factor in the spellbook. So they (and the would-be Cleric & Druid) can have a +2 skill bonus to the relevant knowledge checks as small compensation. Fair, do you think?
Not really. The Wizard gets a spellbook (which means he can start filling the book with cantrips at level 1) but the Sorcerer gets additional spells known, which can be swapped out for higher level spells later, along with his additional spell slots. Clerics and Druids don't get as much, so perhaps just allow them to fill their two 0th-level spell slots with any orisons - in other words, they aren't limited to specific spells like the Wizard/Sorcerer feats are.

Clerics and Druids are plenty strong enough that they don't need a buff beyond that.

[true_shinken]

Unearthed Arcana only did Rangers, Bards, and Paladins, and assumed there would be full casting base classes. In fact, it was assumed you'd multiclass with the full casters to enter the prestige class.

Oh, sorry. It was Complete Warrior.

Another method of limiting access to potent spells is to treat the spellcasting classes much like prestige classes. Any character wishing to begin gaining levels as a spellcaster must first be at least a 3rd-level character with 3 ranks each in Spellcraft and an appropriate Knowledge skill (arcana for bards, sorcerers, or wizards; religion for clerics; nature for druids). This requirement ensures that such characters are significantly behind the power curve of a traditional single-classed spellcaster, but have other talents to fall back on in times of need.

[paddyfool]

Not really. The Wizard gets a spellbook (which means he can start filling the book with cantrips at level 1) but the Sorcerer gets additional spells known, which can be swapped out for higher level spells later, along with his additional spell slots. Clerics and Druids don't get as much, so perhaps just allow them to fill their two 0th-level spell slots with any orisons - in other words, they aren't limited to specific spells like the Wizard/Sorcerer feats are.


Sounds good. One question, though: how would the sorceror swap his spells out for higher level spells?


Oh, sorry. It was Complete Warrior.

Ah. I might have known it wasn't all that novel an idea.

EDIT: New version of the feats following Erikun's critique.

Gift of Arcane Study
Requirements: ownership of a spellbook
Benefits: You gain two level 0 spell slots and two cantrips from the Sorceror/Wizard list inscribed in your spellbook. You may cast these as a level 1 Wizard unless you have more than one level in Wizard, in which case your Wizard caster level applies. Knowledge(Arcana) becomes a permanent class skill for you.

Gift of Arcane Talent:
Requirements: none
Benefits: You gain two level 0 spell slots and two cantrips known from the Sorceror/Wizard list. You may cast these as a level 1 Sorcerer unless you have more than one level in Sorcerer, in which case your Sorcerer class level applies. Knowledge(Arcana) becomes a permanent class skill for you.

Gift of the Divine:
Requirements: none (?holy symbol?)
Benefits: You gain two level 0 spell slots in which you may prepare any two spells from the cleric spell list. You may cast these as a level 1 Cleric unless you have more than one level in Cleric, in which case your Cleric caster level applies. Knowledge(Divine) becomes a permanent class skill for you.

Gift of the Wild:
Requirements: none
Benefits: You gain two level 0 spell slots in which you may prepare any two orisons from the druid spell list. You may cast these as a level 1 Druid unless you have more than one level in Druid, in which case your Druid caster level applies. Knowledge(Nature) becomes a permanent class skill for you.

[erikun]

Sounds good. One question, though: how would the sorceror swap his spells out for higher level spells?
Ah, I think I misread that ability. I was under the assumption that it was any spell of any level for a new spell, as long as the new spell was two levels less than the highest you could cast. (I don't play Sorcerers much... at all, really.)

Other than that, looks good. You don't need a holy symbol as a requirement for Gift of the Divine, as the spells themselves require a holy symbol to use. If the character doesn't have one, they can still take the feat but can't cast the spells.

The reason for a spellbook with Gift of Arcane Study is to have someplace to put the spells.