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View Full Version : The Origin of Species...of Eberron [3.5]



Tanuki Tales
2011-04-03, 10:37 PM
Just want to state right here that even though I marked this as a 3.5 thread I'm willing to take 4.0 answers if there are no options in 3.5.

I'm not the most erudite of scholars when it comes to Eberron as a setting so I'm making this thread and hoping somewhere out there will see it, read it and prove they are so:

Was it ever established or explained at what time(s) and exactly how Shifters and Changelings became established as recognizable race as well as recognized as fellow humanoids instead of monsters to slay? I know this might be a tangent that really is bringing in more science and logic than common sense should dictate being in a game, but it is an important question for me to be answered right now.

Half-Orcs and Half-Elves are easy to explain because they're descended from major humanoid races that are prolific and at least one-half of their parentage is in good standing with the societal web-work of most worlds in general.

But neither Lycanthropes nor Doppelgangers are major, organized races and Lycanthropes at least are supposed to always breed true.

Thanks in advance.

LansXero
2011-04-03, 10:48 PM
Well, you have to consider that there are also a hag controlled, troll/ogre filled nation, a goblinoid nation (and an ancient empire) and a dragon kingdom everyone is afraid of, so "just monsters to slay" isnt as prevalent as in other places. Also, lycanthropes got exterminated to the last not long before the end of the last war iirc, so I doubt shifters are all that recognizable as fellow humanoids.

Tanuki Tales
2011-04-03, 11:01 PM
Well, you have to consider that there are also a hag controlled, troll/ogre filled nation, a goblinoid nation (and an ancient empire) and a dragon kingdom everyone is afraid of, so "just monsters to slay" isnt as prevalent as in other places. Also, lycanthropes got exterminated to the last not long before the end of the last war iirc, so I doubt shifters are all that recognizable as fellow humanoids.

Droaam isn't recognized as a nation by the rest of Khorvaire though and the only time you really see its citizens in normal metropolitan settings are if they're working as mercenaries under the seal of House Tharashk.

Goblinoids have always bred like rabbits and Darguun is really just a powder keg held together by one charismatic barbarian warlord and they just have a cease fire agreement with the Five Kingdoms if I remember correctly.

And if I also remember correctly, though I don't remember why, the Silver Flame ended up excluding Shifters from their corrupt crusade to eliminate Lycans.

Coidzor
2011-04-04, 12:00 AM
Changelings are still mostly hidden, just the same as their doppelganger progenitors, so they're not out in the open and in everyone's face about it, generally.

Tanuki Tales
2011-04-04, 12:15 AM
Changelings are still mostly hidden, just the same as their doppelganger progenitors, so they're not out in the open and in everyone's face about it, generally.

Well, Changelings supposedly form the backbone of most criminal activities in civilized areas and their existence is well known enough for races to distrust them, Dwarves to have little patience for them and Halflings to enjoy being their rivals. So I'm not sure how hidden that makes them.

supermonkeyjoe
2011-04-04, 03:33 AM
Your problem lies in the fact that you've divided the inhabitants of Eberron into "civilized humanoids" and "monsters to slay" this isn't generally how it works.

You call them a "Recognizable" race but what do you mean by that? That they breed true or that they're accepted into society? I'm assuming by your follow on posts that you meant in society but that isn't entirely true. Shifters and Changelings are not entirely accepted in "high society" changelings would often be viewed as untrustworthy and shifters viewed as savages, just because they're in the races section of the ECS doesn't mean that everyone has to like them.

Tanuki Tales
2011-04-04, 09:09 AM
Your problem lies in the fact that you've divided the inhabitants of Eberron into "civilized humanoids" and "monsters to slay" this isn't generally how it works.

You call them a "Recognizable" race but what do you mean by that? That they breed true or that they're accepted into society? I'm assuming by your follow on posts that you meant in society but that isn't entirely true. Shifters and Changelings are not entirely accepted in "high society" changelings would often be viewed as untrustworthy and shifters viewed as savages, just because they're in the races section of the ECS doesn't mean that everyone has to like them.


Recognizable race is one that breeds true and is populous, as my first post had mentioned.

The second part of my post also inquired at what point they were viewed as even second-class citizens instead of something to jut your sword in like Trolls or Harpies or Bulettes.

No, but it means that a human/dwarf/elf/etc. who killed a Shifter or Changeling without dispense from some higher authority or in self defense would/could be viewed as a murderer (especially in more open minded areas like Breland) instead of simply doing away with a "monster".

supermonkeyjoe
2011-04-04, 10:10 AM
Recognizable race is one that breeds true and is populous, as my first post had mentioned.

The second part of my post also inquired at what point they were viewed as even second-class citizens instead of something to jut your sword in like Trolls or Harpies or Bulettes.

No, but it means that a human/dwarf/elf/etc. who killed a Shifter or Changeling without dispense from some higher authority or in self defense would/could be viewed as a murderer (especially in more open minded areas like Breland) instead of simply doing away with a "monster".

I agree that legally they would be regarded as a murderer but by similar extension so would someone killing a goblin in Sharn, whether anyone actually cared enough to enforce the law is another matter. Unfortunately it's not a case of "is this creature a monster y/n" the response is mostly due to societal attitudes; changelings, warforged, goblinoids, shifters and other "lesser" races are all treated as second class citizens even though the law should apply the same to them. The reason they are treated as citizens at all would be due to their familiarity with other "civilised" races, they are all medium or small sized humanoids (shape wise rather than subtype) with a roughly average intelligence score and no other unusual features or dangerous abilities (LA+0 or 1 in game terms).

The reason why they're only second class and not treated as equals? It's never directly stated but the most obvious reason would be that none of those races can manifest a dragonmark. The dragonmarked houses are so widespread an deeply ingrained in the society of Khorvaire that the races privileged enough to be associated with a house are perceived as having a greater worth and are able to contribute to society in a meaningful way. This leaves the other non-humanoid races as being perceived to have less worth.

Or at least that's my take on it

Tanuki Tales
2011-04-04, 10:22 AM
I agree that legally they would be regarded as a murderer but by similar extension so would someone killing a goblin in Sharn, whether anyone actually cared enough to enforce the law is another matter. Unfortunately it's not a case of "is this creature a monster y/n" the response is mostly due to societal attitudes; changelings, warforged, goblinoids, shifters and other "lesser" races are all treated as second class citizens even though the law should apply the same to them. The reason they are treated as citizens at all would be due to their familiarity with other "civilised" races, they are all medium or small sized humanoids (shape wise rather than subtype) with a roughly average intelligence score and no other unusual features or dangerous abilities (LA+0 or 1 in game terms).

The reason why they're only second class and not treated as equals? It's never directly stated but the most obvious reason would be that none of those races can manifest a dragonmark. The dragonmarked houses are so widespread an deeply ingrained in the society of Khorvaire that the races privileged enough to be associated with a house are perceived as having a greater worth and are able to contribute to society in a meaningful way. This leaves the other non-humanoid races as being perceived to have less worth.

Or at least that's my take on it

Well, that is all well and good, but my questions lie in the when of these things (becoming a race and becoming even second class citizens) and not so much the why. Though for the record, I never claimed goblinoids as "Monsters" instead of "people", that was Lans. :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2011-04-04, 10:26 AM
It probably varies from place to place.

Thrane might not have accepted shifters as "citizens" until late in the Purge- when certain shifters sided with the Silver Flame and won acceptance.

Breland might have accepted them much earlier.

EccentricCircle
2011-04-04, 10:35 AM
yeah, one of the best things about eberron is its shades of grey approach to the traditional distinctions between a person and a monster.
as to when I would say during the last war.
that was the point when the society of khorvaire was shaken up and the factions that had previously been marginalised in the kingdom of Galifar decided to forge their own nations and set themselves up as equals to the humans who had dominated the continent for so long.

some such as the Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings succeeded in creating their own nations. others such as the goblins or the "monsters" of Droam are on their way but still have major problems (be it rulership or the absence of law) and so are generally not recognised or considered civilised.

the reason the shifters weren't exterminated along with the rest of the werekinds is because they allied themselves with the church of the silver flame against other lycanthropes. so that can be seen as the time when they were "officially" declared to be people rather than monsters in need of slaying
although as many people have said. this is Eberron, that definition is in the minds of the characters rather than the writers of the world. Any sentient being in that world is more complicated than "always chaotic evil" but they may not be recognised as such by their more civilised neighbours.

as to changelings i'm not sure. I guess they've always been there and have steadly become more noticiable in society as time has gone on.

I would recommend Races of Eberron if you haven't already read it as it is an interesting discussion of the role of each race within the world and touches on other races as well and the core four and the standard PHB races.

supermonkeyjoe
2011-04-04, 11:30 AM
A lot of the "when" of the races happened at the signing of the Treaty of Thronehold, all of the races officially belonging to the recognised countries (plus warforged) were granted protection under the treaty, if Droaam had been recognised then no doubt ogres, trolls, gnolls etc. would also be recognised as civilized races though this is perhaps one of the reasons why the country wasn't accepted.

askandarion
2011-04-04, 01:07 PM
It's kept nebulous (unless Races of Eberron gives more detail- AFB to check), and I don't recall anything from Keith Baker on the subject, so it's mostly conjecture. My opinion is that they became "recognizable" by day-to-day humans after Galifar I united Khorvaire. This way, humanity has settled through Khorvaire and had plenty of time to be around and intermingle with the lycanthropes and shapeshifters- and more importantly, for the Dragonmarked houses to develop. I think a unified nation and the Dragonmarked houses would do more to make these races understood as distinct races, due to legal and mercantile efforts. I think the houses formed about 1500 years before the last war? So at most 1500 years ago, changelings and shifters came to be noticed as distinct species, and perhaps accepted (to a limited degree) after another 500 years? Give or take how optimistic your version of Eberron is run, that is. Changelings might have taken longer to be accepted due to their secretive nature.

Steveotep
2011-04-04, 04:34 PM
Secrets of Sarlona has a history for shifters going back thousands of years. Some migrated to Khorvaire via the Frostfell frozen north continent.
Shifters claim lycanthropes were descended from them rather than the other way round, but the lycanthropes turned corrupt and evil.

Changelings have no history I have been able to find, but as they are common in Sarlona they probably originated there, and came to Khorvaire hidden among the human refugees. In Sarlona changelings have higher status than humans, and act as spies for the Inspired.

Tanuki Tales
2011-04-04, 04:59 PM
And the last two posts were exactly what I was looking for. Thanks everyone for your input and help!