Relationship Woes and Advice 18: Finally Legal in Hollywood

[Sarco_Phage]

I forgot my little tongueface that would have indicated I was joking. Tongueface! :smalltongue:

The whole "horse as nice car" thing stems from the fact that material possessions are attractive, because they imply stability and responsibility, or (more negatively) rich parents.

EDIT: This is as "marriage material", or at least for someone in a long-term relationship.

Who would you choose: the boring guy who loves you, has a good place to live, and a steady income, or the special, wild, amazing one who loves you but is a career teacher/artist?

[Jonesh]

Haha well, so today went ok.
I didn't get a proper kiss but I got one and gave her lots, i.e. whenever she did good I complimented her and gave her a kiss.
But she did say outright that a proper kiss will come in the future. We talked a lot about stuff like that, like about nakedness, sex, relationships and stuff like that.
Some examples include but are not limited to;

1st: Her revealing that she isn't very physical and that she didn't even hold hands with her ex (who she had been together with for like three years) so she didn't want to hold my hand (not at work or on the bus home :smallfrown:).
She did not recoil or anything whenever I touched her, so that might just be the most positive response I can get from her at the moment. I'd like, give her a push on her lower back when I wanted her to go forward and try and make a sale and I'd pat her shoulders and caress her cheeks (sometimes) when she did good but ultimately failed to make a sale.
Hell, I even showed her how a guy at a train annoyed me when he made a move and she didn't feel tense or anything. For your information, that was pretty innocent and the whole situation was more annoying than anything else. He laid his arms around my shoulders and touched my crotch with his knee. He was drunk as a skunk so I just told him to piss off :smalltongue:

2nd: Her asking me at what age I'm thinking of marrying (haha uh ohhh) and the resulting discussion about relationships.

3rd: We had a discussion about sex where we both said we had recently gotten tested and she said she was glad because then she wouldn't catch anything from me (haha uh ohhh) and she was pleasantly surprised when I told her I was passionate in bed and would try my best to please the girl, even if she is/was a ONS, as long as she is clean.
You can use your imagination to figure out what kind of acts I'm talking about :smallwink:

4th: Related to the previous one, she said again how I am such an awesome guy that if everyone was like me a whole lot of the world's problem would be gone.

So I think she is just it playing safe :smallredface:

[Sarco_Phage]

Awesome, jonesh, you're doing great! Keep us posted.

[Jonesh]

Haha wow, you're fast! :smalltongue:
But yeah, it looks good. She said I was delicious and complimented me on my looks several times :smallbiggrin:

[Trog]

I forgot my little tongueface that would have indicated I was joking. Tongueface! :smalltongue:

The whole "horse as nice car" thing stems from the fact that material possessions are attractive, because they imply stability and responsibility, or (more negatively) rich parents.

EDIT: This is as "marriage material", or at least for someone in a long-term relationship.
(Heh. "Tongueface.")

I… guess? :smallconfused:

I mean I've been married before and for the most part you build the life you want together as a mutual exercise. Once you are living under the same roof you enjoy some benefits of having lower expenses. That extra cash goes to build the life you want together, hopefully.

In my case it was my ex-wife who liked to take the reigns and say that this is what she wanted and this is what we should do and I obliged. As a cynic you could look at this and say "You, Mr. Man, you work real hard for me and I'll do what I want with the money." But for me, really, it was more "I'm going to have to work for things anyway and you know I'd give you the shirt off my back if you asked so I'm happy to be the one who can help make your dreams come true if you treat me right." My marriage ended because I didn't get the things I needed emotionally from my S.O. In the divorce I voluntarily gave her the house and agreed to keep my name on it for many years because we had locked in such a low interest rate that it would cost a lot to get my name taken of of it and to have it refinanced. Her saving cash would help her afford to keep the house. I've since singed off on it and everyone's happy with the results, including me.

So do I have a house now and a fancy car and great material wealth? No. But I can work hard for any woman I love that treats me with love and respect if that's what she wants. I can be a knight without a castle for now. We can worry about where to build it once the princess decides where and when she would like it built. And we can build it together. That's how I see martial wealth working in marriage. YMMV.

Sorry, rather random and likely too specific example there. And I'm getting way ahead of myself because, as a knight, I am busy charging after windmills and doing silly stuff, currently. Perhaps when I am so moved I shall go questing again. :smallwink:

@v *shrug* nothing wrong with that I suppose. As I said earlier we each choose our own roles. I just don't like guys bemoaning not being treated as a knight when they've chosen the princess role... or uh what have you... if that makes any sense. I feel like the labels get in the way of my point here to a certain extent but hopefully you can see what I mean.

[Sarco_Phage]

Eh, no worries. Myself, I'd rather be the princess than the knight.

[Alarra]

Who would you choose: the boring guy who loves you, has a good place to live, and a steady income, or the special, wild, amazing one who loves you but is a career teacher/artist?

I would choose the artist, because frankly I've dated the guy I found boring before and I don't want to do that again. Material possessions or wealth, to me at least, will never make up for something lacking in their personality or our chemistry. However, if all things are equal, that will become a factor in my choice. As example I was once in the situation of choosing between two guys, both were fun, out-going, fantastic, really liked me and I felt incredibly comfortable with them (which is what I usually base my 'relationship potential' on)...so they were, emotionally and personality wise equals. I chose the one with his own place and a steady income.

[Sarco_Phage]

Yeah, it was a hypothetical directed at everyone in general. Myself, I'd choose the fun, crazy, unstable guy as well, but that's because I have no intention of settling down yet.

[Glass Mouse]

On "wealth and money", it's probably a factor. But it's not simple.

Where I am in life, I'd run screaming from any guy with a car because having a car would mean that he's working so much that a) he'd never have time to see me, and b) he'd be in his grave before 30.
But that's now, and I dunno if a big car would matter in ten years. I suspect not.

Also, I (and I suspect other women, I'm not that freakish) wouldn't mind being primary breadwinner. Wealth doesn't impress us much because we can easily create our own either now or in time.

What does impress me is stability. Which wealth CAN indicate, but doesn't guarantee. The hypothetical Car Guy would be rich, but not stable. I wouldn't know how often I'd see him, his affections might be sparse, etc. Add to that that his wealth doesn't say ANYTHING about his emotional stability. For all I know, he could be wildly bipolar.

Bottom line: Stability is desirable, but it comes in many forms, and wealth is only indicative (but not a guarantee) of material stability.
I'm not trying to completely discount the wealth point, but I don't think it's nowhere near as surefire as some guys make it out to be.

Except for golddiggers... but you should probably run from those anyway.


True, you have to take a leap of faith there.
But, how can you be offended by being asked out by a friend? That seems so weird.

I'd be offended if a friend didn't respect me. And asking me out after I've explicitly said I wasn't interested... wouldn't exactly be respectful :smallannoyed:


Edit:
Oh, and Jonesh, congrats! I'm glad to hear things are progressing well!
What happened with your dates, though? Were they cancelled? Or are you just holding juicy details back? :smallwink:

[Sarco_Phage]

Also, I (and I suspect other women, I'm not that freakish) wouldn't mind being primary breadwinner. Wealth doesn't impress us much because we can easily create our own either now or in time.

Uh, dude, this has been pretty much standard since the 90's - women in the corporate world and otherwise are thankfully earning (almost) what they deserve, rather than taking a hit to their wages. However, imagine not just being the primary breadwinner, but the only consistent breadwinner.

Both of you working and earning? Fine.

You, only, working consistently, supporting someone who by all rights should be on his feet? I dunno about you, but that don't sit right with me.

[Glass Mouse]

You, only, working consistently, supporting someone who by all rights should be on his feet? I dunno about you, but that don't sit right with me.

Heh, point. This has actually been one of the few close-to-breaking points with my boyfriend. I'm fine with earning more, but I will not have all the responsibility.

I may have misunderstood you. I heard you arguing that women want wealth, which only rings partially true for me. This is what I argued against.

And I know it's been the norm since the 90's, but the old thought patterns (obviously) still haven't left us as a society, so it's not a moot point.

[Jonesh]

Edit:
Oh, and Jonesh, congrats! I'm glad to hear things are progressing well!
What happened with your dates, though? Were they cancelled? Or are you just holding juicy details back? :smallwink:

Well, the dates aren't until the 20th and the 22nd. I wouldn't hold back any details from you Glass :smallwink:

And yes, thanks, I think it seems like it's going well :smallbiggrin:

One of my closest friends said she thinks I'm "five minutes from the friend zone". But I think she just skimmed through what I wrote so I'm not really worried. I reiterated some of the points that I thought she missed and I think she got it :smalltongue:

[Sarco_Phage]

I may have misunderstood you. I heard you arguing that women want wealth, which only rings partially true for me. This is what I argued against.

Naw, I was arguing that many women would be more attracted to a decent man with the bonus of material possessions because this indicates stability - regardless of the actual existence of that stability. So, only a bit off the mark. :smallsmile:

[Glass Mouse]

One of my closest friends said she thinks I'm "five minutes from the friend zone". But I think she just skimmed through what I wrote so I'm not really worried. I reiterated some of the points that I thought she missed and I think she got it :smalltongue:

Oh great, now you're gonna kickstart that discussion again! XD

Disregard your friend's words. You're flirting heavily, you have a promised kiss and two upcoming dates, you have nothing to worry about at this point.


Naw, I was arguing that many women would be more attracted to a decent man with the bonus of material possessions because this indicates stability - regardless of the actual existence of that stability. So, only a bit off the mark. :smallsmile:

I think most women are smart enough to figure out whether or not the implied stability is real before entering a relationship.

Wealth might be enough to make one turn her head where she otherwise wouldn't have, though. Or, in Alarra's case, be a deciding factor where everything else is equal. I think. Dunno.

[Sarco_Phage]

I think most women are smart enough to figure out whether or not the implied stability is real before entering a relationship.

Wealth might be enough to make one turn her head where she otherwise wouldn't have, though. Or, in Alarra's case, be a deciding factor where everything else is equal. I think. Dunno.

I dunno, my general idea of people, from experience and hearsay, is that we tend to rush in too often.:smallsigh:

[Jonesh]

Oh great, now you're gonna kickstart that discussion again! XD

Disregard your friend's words. You're flirting heavily, you have a promised kiss and two upcoming dates, you have nothing to worry about at this point.


Haha I no rite right!
>mfw when I see the word "friendzone" in the RW&A-thread
>http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTG3vBXulHolea0EN2esAKP7rUxWN6Y8 kGHtPF-61inPLKFc3DmeQ&t=1

No offence Sarco_Phage! :smalltongue:

On the promised kiss, we were sitting on the bus and she had just said she didn't want to hold hands (:smallfrown:) so I put on my most bold smile and asked her about a kiss instead and I leaned forward with a cheek towards and she said something like "It (the kiss) will get there, don't worry"
IN SWEDISH "Det kommer, oroa dig inte."
And well, when we said goodbye I kind of got even bolder so I gently caressed her cheek while I kissed the other one.
I don't know if I overdid it because I didn't get a reaction either way, just a regular goodbye and see ya :smallconfused:
When I told one of my friends about this he said "Oh I figured out the problem between you two. She's FRIGID". Maybe he's right :smalltongue:
Or maybe, she still thinks I'm an unserious playa.

I'll see her shortly at least this Sunday and i was thinking I could talk to her a little bit then, see how she reacts.
And maybe say a suave line or something... like... hmm... "Do you believe in love at first sight? *she answers in the affirmative* Well, I didn't. Untill I saw you."
Something like that maybe, I dunno :smallbiggrin:
Or I might just say, "Hey, you know I like you and I can't wait to see you at our dates and get to know you even better".

Well, one thing is for certain. I'll probably never get people :smalltongue:

[Gaelbert]

I'll see her shortly at least this Sunday and i was thinking I could talk to her a little bit then, see how she reacts.
And maybe say a suave line or something... like... hmm... "Do you believe in love at first sight? *she answers in the affirmative* Well, I didn't. Untill I saw you."
Something like that maybe, I dunno :smallbiggrin:
Or I might just say, "Hey, you know I like you and I can't wait to see you at our dates and get to know you even better".

If someone said the first to me, I would probably bust up laughing. I approve of the second, however.

[Jonesh]

If someone said the first to me, I would probably bust up laughing. I approve of the second, however.

Haha well, that's kind of the point also! She thinks I'm funny too so I'll say it with a humorous voice or imitiation (like Barry White or something :smalltongue:) and an obvious wink.
I mean, when this girl told me she had never met a man like me before I said like "Mmm, I love it when girls give me compliments. Keep it up :smallwink:" and it made her laugh a lot :smallbiggrin:

But in all seriousness, I'll probably stick to the second as well.
I'm not a big fan of using the L-word, like, ever :smalltongue:

[cdstephens]

Huh. Well, at least the parents haven't gone so far as to say NO YOU CANNOT SEE THAT BOY.

Have you done anything with the family yet? Ask your gf if she thinks it's the proper time for you to meet the folks, try winning them over.

I met them at the end of March, had lunch with them, etc. It was OK, but I don't think it helped my case very much.

So my gf asked them if she could visit for my grad, and they said "maybe". Not a no, but I'm still not very hopeful. They're major concern is that her flight would have to be the day of the SATs, so right after she takes them. We were thinking maybe if she showed she studied really hard or made a deal with them on how long she studies per week they'd be more willing to let her go. Worst case I can try to make a visit over the summer, but I don't think her parents would let me sleep over at her house, for obvious reasons.

[Starbuck_II]

I'd be offended if a friend didn't respect me. And asking me out after I've explicitly said I wasn't interested... wouldn't exactly be respectful :smallannoyed:


Really, would you end a friendship over that act or just be upset with them?

[Coidzor]

I think you misunderstand me. The manning up and asking her out is for those individuals who like said girl but haven't had the nerve to ask her out or make their feelings clearly known yet.

And yeah if she says no she might possibly end her association with you. *shrug* The chance you take when revealing your feelings to someone who doesn't share them. If remaining her friend is more important than being her boyfriend then say nothing, accept unspoken defeat, and look elsewhere if you like. Nothing wrong with being friends. If being her boyfriend is more important you should say something of course. Trust your feelings, Luke.

As to the waiting in the wings being a lack of manliness I mean come on. Which guy would a woman rather have? Guy A who flirts hard, sweeps in and confesses his feelings of longing to her and carries her off? Or Guy B who is a mild-mannered nice guy who merely stares at her longingly behind her back and is too afraid to make the kind of showing that guy A did?

Sorry, but many many women want guy A because they feel that they should deserve to be treated as special, as desirable, and as worth the risk. And they are. There might be ones who want guy B instead? But I'm fairly certain they're in the vast minority. Most women, in short, want the knight in shining armor because they feel they are worthy of attracting such a man. Just the way things are, man. If you think she's a princess you better damn well bring your knight game.

I was fairly sure I wasn't grokking you, since what I was getting from it didn't seem like something you would say in a thousand Pall Malls. Or Coffin Nails.

I concur that just revealing one's intent from the get-go is better, though it seems to mostly just reveal that I'm considered too ugly to date by most of my female friends that I'm interested in. Which is just kinda depressing since I'm average.

[Sarco_Phage]

Then, um, lower your standards?

[Coidzor]

Then, um, lower your standards?

:smalltongue: Considering that one of the ones who rejected me for being too ugly and stopped being my friend would actually have been me dating down... No, I don't think it's that.

Anyone that aesthetically pleasing just wouldn't want me in their circle of friends in the first place.

My best guess is that they were feeling especially tactless and my ending a relationship of about 3 years in the past year had made me seem like tainted meat due to rebound rules or something.

[Serpentine]

ZombieWoof: Of course a guy has a right to be upset over being turned down. But that does not give him the right to blame her for just not being interested, and does not give him the right to paint all women with the same bitter brush, especially not when it grossly represents the majority of them and potentially leads to misunderstanding and more bitterness.
Be upset, but don't cast aspersions on an entire sex because of it.

Glass Mouse: I was thinking about pretty much that just the other day, up to and including the "I would be willing to be the primary breadwinner" bit. My mother was the primary breadwinner of my family - and incidentally, my father copped a nice bit of sexism over it. Hopefully we've come a bit further since the '80s. And my Boy (who's sorta talking to me again, yay!), his only real long-term career preference is to become a househusband.
So, what did I come up with in my musings...? Ah yes. I think I'd be less likely to be interested in a deadbeat dolebludger who lives in his car, but not because of his material wealth or lack of it, but because of drive, and goals, and things like that. I'm less likely to find such a person intellectually, socially or motivationally stimulating than someone who knows what he wants, how to get it and is on his way to doing it - or even someone who doesn't know what he wants, how to get it and hasn't started, but is looking and trying hard.
Basically, I would be willing to support a partner who is dirt-poor without so much as a bicycle to his name, but only if he's trying to improve himself. Which, of course, doesn't necessarily include working towards being rich as Hell, just... doing something.

[ZombyWoof]

ZombieWoof: Of course a guy has a right to be upset over being turned down. But that does not give him the right to blame her for just not being interested, and does not give him the right to paint all women with the same bitter brush, especially not when it grossly represents the majority of them and potentially leads to misunderstanding and more bitterness.
Be upset, but don't cast aspersions on an entire sex because of it.

You know, you're the one who sounds bitter about this. And I don't think most people who say "ahhh friends zone'd" also think that women are two-dimensional and can only think in basic, exclusive sets. Oh and the ones who do? Don't really matter.

People say dumb stuff when they're frustrated. Get used to it because otherwise your life is going to suck.

As for "primary" or "sole" breadwinners, on my mom's side of the family there are 4 siblings. Each of them is married. In 3/4ths of those families the wife is the primary breadwinner while in 1/2 of those families the wife is the sole breadwinner. On my dad's side, there are 3 families: 1 is a single mom, 1 has a housewife, and the third, my dad, well... he has (since divorcing my mom) been either the sole or primary income of his household.

In short?

My rule is that I need to make enough money to let my wife do whatever she wants to do. If she wants to be a stay-at-home mother, then it's my job to support that. If she wants to have a high-powered career, it's my job to support that.

It also leaves me in a very interesting position, because while I'm very sure there are women out there who face so much opposition they can't do these things or feel pressure to not do these things, none of them are in my particular sphere. And as my mom (or aunt, I can't remember) once said, "You are very spoiled because you grew up in a family of very strong women."

[Serpentine]

Bitter? I'm pissed off at how ubiquitous it is, the way it's taken for granted that it's true, and the disgusting things it suggests the people who believe in it think of women. And it comes up again and again and again. It's stupid, harmful and just plain wrong, and I'm not going to stop fighting it until people stop using it.
It's not people saying dumb stuff when they're frustrated that's the problem. It's everyone else nodding along to it as though it's the most reasonable thing in the world and explains everything.

edit: From my siglinks, as apparently it's relevant again.


I know I said I'd back out of this, but, well, I lied this is an addition from the sidelines.
I'd like to put in a refinement of what I was saying.
The "friend bin" or equivalent, as used everywhere I've seen it, as opposed to being talked about, as in this discussion
Boy: I like you. As in, you know, like.
Girl: You are my friend. You have also been categorised as "a friend who I will never date, ever, no matter what, because you're my Friiiiieeeeeennnnnnd, and I never want you to be any more than that", and therefore I will never date you, ever, no matter what.
Boy: Dang.

Real life
Boy: I like you. As in, you know, like.
Girl: You are my friend. I really like you and enjoy being around you. But, I'm sorry, for one reason or another, you're just not the sort of person I'm interested in dating right now.
Boy: Dang. Is it because I'm in the Friend Bin?

It seems like you imagine the female mind is set up like this -
Not dateable: Friend.
Dateable: You, unless you're a Friend.

Whereas in fact it's probably more like this:
Friend: Funny/intelligent/interesting/clever/etc
Dateable: As above, + "something else" and/or "clicking" + attraction

To take Vorpal Tribble's example (sorry VT), there's an excellent chance he is exactly what she wants. She may even, conciously or not, be taking him as her model for what she does want. But, for some reason, or quite possibly no reason, or at least none she's aware of, she's just not attracted to him in that way right now. That's just the way it is. No categories, no bins, no status, just simply no interest. Unless she thinks he's too good for her..

I have a bit of advice for all you guys (mostly) out there. Give up on the whole "friend bin" thing. If I found out that one of my friends was saying that the only reason I won't snog him is because he is irrevocably in the "friend bin" or equivalent, my response would be outrage: How dare you reduce my entire psyche to such an over-simplification, how dare you presume to know my most intimate emotional workings beyond what I've already expressed to you, and how DARE you shunt all your insecurities and flaws onto me?! I find it downright offensive. Among the innumerable implications are that: a female's emotions and opinions are immobile and constant, her mind is unchangable, and she is in no way effected by outside stimuli; frienships are absolutely inferior to physical relationships; a guy is only hanging out with a girl because he wants to get with her; and that the only real factors in a girl's choice of significant other is whether they're classified as "datable" or "friend". Your female friend may be a) Not interested, b) Secretly interested, c) Just hasn't looked at you in that way yet, or d) Is more interested in someone else. None of these are unchangable! Simply letting them know that you might be interested in them in a way other than friendship could be enough to shift it, or there's also the whole, you know, working on your current relationship with them thing. There is also, of course, the possibility that you're simply not the sort of person she's interested in. You might be able to try to alter yourself to fit better what she does like, but this is probably a good idea only if this change would be for the better. Otherwise, give up and/or hope her taste changes. In any case, is friendship really so terrible that you can't just enjoy it without lamenting over the lack of "something more"? If so, back away. You'll only end up blaming the girl, ruining what you have, and quite possibly making her miserable.

[Sarco_Phage]

You know, you're the one who sounds bitter about this. And I don't think most people who say "ahhh friends zone'd" also think that women are two-dimensional and can only think in basic, exclusive sets. Oh and the ones who do? Don't really matter.

Way to discard a good chunk of the world's population as irrelevant. :smallamused:

[term1nally s1ck]

When everyone knows what someone means by something, even if the way they say it isn't true, then it's let go.

Everyone knows that 'the friend zone' is a way to say that she's not attracted to him and he's stuck being friends with someone he'd raher be more than friends with.

Just because some people blame women for rejecting them doesn't mean there's anything wrong with one way they can choose to express it. If the guy was talking about how she rejected him due to having no feelings for him in that way, because she's only attracted to jerks, you'd be just as angry at him. The idiot guy is the problem, not the terms he uses.

[ZombyWoof]

Way to discard a good chunk of the world's population as irrelevant. :smallamused:
I really find people who subscribe to racism or sexism to be largely irrelevant. They're irrational and there is virtually no way to correct their way of thinking. Everything they say or do will be hurtful and destructive to society, so it's best to just assume that they'll be there for better or worse and carry on as best as you can knowing that people like that exist.

So I'm faced with either being really upset that there is rampant ignorance in the world that cannot be fixed or just accepting that it's there and trying to work within that framework. One of them leaves me raging on an internet forum (which I do frequently enough as it is :smallwink::smallbiggrin:) about things I can't change, and the other lets me just... let it go.

+1 to Terminally Sick (a phrase I never thought I'd say).

[Gaelbert]

When everyone knows what someone means by something, even if the way they say it isn't true, then it's let go.

Everyone knows that 'the friend zone' is a way to say that she's not attracted to him and he's stuck being friends with someone he'd raher be more than friends with.

Just because some people blame women for rejecting them doesn't mean there's anything wrong with one way they can choose to express it. If the guy was talking about how she rejected him due to having no feelings for him in that way, because she's only attracted to jerks, you'd be just as angry at him. The idiot guy is the problem, not the terms he uses.

Maybe that's obvious to everyone on here, but Serpentine has a point that needs to be made. I've had boys come crying to me that they were rejected because they were in the friend zone. They failed to realize they were in the friend zone for a reason, and so they passed the blame off on the women, e.g. "She only dates jerks." They get so convinced of this that they decide they need to be more of a jerk to avoid the friend zone.
So while this is something the Playground may have down, it's not something the rest of the world gets as much as it should.

[Serpentine]

When everyone knows what someone means by something, even if the way they say it isn't true, then it's let go.

Everyone knows that 'the friend zone' is a way to say that she's not attracted to him and he's stuck being friends with someone he'd raher be more than friends with.

Just because some people blame women for rejecting them doesn't mean there's anything wrong with one way they can choose to express it. If the guy was talking about how she rejected him due to having no feelings for him in that way, because she's only attracted to jerks, you'd be just as angry at him. The idiot guy is the problem, not the terms he uses.Read 1984, and then tell me that collapsing a complex set of ideas and circumstances into a hypersimplified catch-all term that is used constantly isn't a problem.

So I'm faced with either being really upset that there is rampant ignorance in the world that cannot be fixed or just accepting that it's there and trying to work within that framework. One of them leaves me raging on an internet forum (which I do frequently enough as it is :smallwink::smallbiggrin:) about things I can't change, and the other lets me just... let it go.Congratulations! You've just improved the world by a degree of exactly zero.

[ZombyWoof]

Maybe that's obvious to everyone on here, but Serpentine has a point that needs to be made. I've had boys come crying to me that they were rejected because they were in the friend zone. They failed to realize they were in the friend zone for a reason, and so they passed the blame off on the women, e.g. "She only dates jerks." They get so convinced of this that they decide they need to be more of a jerk to avoid the friend zone.
So while this is something the Playground may have down, it's not something the rest of the world gets as much as it should.
They.

Are.

Venting.

I am not sure how to get this across any more. What they are doing is no different than when my friend K comes crying to me because the guy she's kind of having sex with occasionally treats her like crap and then says, "Why do all men suck?" If she hated all men, she wouldn't be complaining to me about this so clearly she doesn't think all men suck. She's just using hyperbole to get her point across.

It is no more malicious than punching a pillow.

EDIT:
@Serp, how much have you fixed the world by being very angry at people for saying dumb things? :smallconfused:

[Sarco_Phage]

Maybe that's obvious to everyone on here, but Serpentine has a point that needs to be made. I've had boys come crying to me that they were rejected because they were in the friend zone. They failed to realize they were in the friend zone for a reason, and so they passed the blame off on the women, e.g. "She only dates jerks."

That sounds less like a problem of the purported "friend zone" and more of the fact that these boys who've come crying to you can't accept the fact that maybe someone doesn't want to date em for reasons that have something else to do than the stereotypical idea that "girls like bad boys".

The thing is, they don't get that if no one wants to date em, maybe they're just not goddamn presentable, attractive, decent, or otherwise, and have a sense of entitlement regarding the world.

EDIT: **** I shifted into frat boy mode again. Gimme a second.

[Serpentine]

Zombiewoof: And then all of his friends listen, and nod understandingly, and agree that the problem is totally that he was stuck in the Friend Zone, and apply that knowledge to their relationships with other girls, and then consider it confirmed when they in turn are rejected, and vent at their friends, who nod understandingly and agree that the problem is totally that he was stuck in the Friend Zone... Oh, and then later they turn up here and are all "waaaaaaah! How do I stop from getting dumped in the Friend Zone! Why doesn't this girl I'm semi-stalking like me! She has me in the Friend Zone! How do I get out!"

And a helluvalot more than just sitting back and letting everyone talk crap without getting called on it. At least that way I have a chance of persuading someone, or letting other people know that that way of thinking is not okay.

[term1nally s1ck]

See, my point is entirely that. He'd be convinced it was her fault that he was rejected, not his, no matter which term he used to describe why. He'd blame her taste in men if she told him 'I'm not attracted to you.' instead of 'I only like you as a friend.'

They'd then convince themselves that she only dates jerks cos they pre-judge the guys she dates, and then convince themselves to act like a jerk to become like those guys.

It's completely separate from the idea of a friend-zone, it's their mantality that is wrong. You can't fix that by changing their language.

If someone was a total racist, stopping them using racist language doesn't change how they behave, nor does it make them a better person.

[Serpentine]

Language is tied into ideas; changing language can change ideas. But that's a much bigger topic than can be properly addressed here, and one I actually don't know all that much about. Others do, but not me. All I can offer is, again, a suggestion to go read 1984.

[ZombyWoof]

Zombiewoof: And then all of his friends listen, and nod understandingly, and agree that the problem is totally that he was stuck in the Friend Zone, and apply that knowledge to their relationships with other girls, and then consider it confirmed when they in turn are rejected, and vent at their friends, who nod understandingly and agree that the problem is totally that he was stuck in the Friend Zone...
Clearly hyperbole is the devil and should be censored? :smallconfused: I guess I shouldn't say that my bag weighs a ton, because then all of my friends will assume I can exert 2,000 lbs of force on a shoulderbag!




And a helluvalot more than just sitting back and letting everyone talk crap without getting called on it. At least that way I have a chance of persuading someone, or letting other people know that that way of thinking is not okay.
But you're not really persuading anyone. You're just posting on a forum about how annoyed you are that some people use particular words to describe a situation. I don't think anyone here honestly believes that women divide the world into 'friends, not friends' and that 'friends' are not dateable. And yet there are a lot of people here who use the term "friends zone."

And when you come across someone who actually thinks like that (and isn't just using hyperbole to get his frustration across) then you can kindly correct him. Jumping down his throat is just going to either make him feel more firmly that you're in the wrong (people hate being wrong and they HATE taking aggro, especially when they're already feeling like crap about themselves) or just make him really dislike you.

I just don't think you've thought your reaction to the situation through.

@Serp again,

I don't swear just for the hell of it. Language is a poor enough means of communication. I think we should all the words we've got. Besides, there are damn few words that anybody understands.

And you missed the point of 1984 completely: they couldn't change the way people thought by using words. They tried and failed.

P.S. 1984 is fiction.

[Sarco_Phage]

Language is tied into ideas; changing language can change ideas. But that's a much bigger topic than can be properly addressed here, and one I actually don't know all that much about. Others do, but not me. All I can offer is, again, a suggestion to go read 1984.

Oooh, have you read Saussure? Since this is something that appears to be an important concern for you, I suggest you read Ferdinand de Saussure's articles on semiotics. You might find them very interesting as regards the development of the Sign (his word) or you might find it dry and boring as hell.


Clearly hyperbole is the devil and should be censored? :smallconfused: I guess I shouldn't say that my bag weighs a ton, because then all of my friends will assume I can exert 2,000 lbs of force on a shoulderbag!

Why, ZombyWoof, why would you, who has clearly stated your preference for forthrightness and honesty, mislead your friends in such a dishonest manner?! I weep. I weep.

[Serpentine]

Clearly hyperbole is the devil and should be censored? :smallconfused: I guess I shouldn't say that my bag weighs a ton, because then all of my friends will assume I can exert 2,000 lbs of force on a shoulderbag!Yes, that's my point entirely, fo' su' :smallsigh:
This is based on observation. What I've seen right here in this forum. People come here complaining about how they've been "Friend Zoned", and others treat it as though it's a genuine, serious issue that warrants concern and solutions.

I don't think anyone here honestly believes that women divide the world into 'friends, not friends' and that 'friends' are not dateable. And yet there are a lot of people here who use the term "friends zone."Again: I've seen it. Right here.

And when you come across someone who actually thinks like that (and isn't just using hyperbole to get his frustration across) then you can kindly correct him. Jumping down his throat is just going to either make him feel more firmly that you're in the wrong (people hate being wrong and they HATE taking aggro, especially when they're already feeling like crap about themselves) or just make him really dislike you.Then I'm not targetting him, I'm talking to the people who might listen to his bitter rantings and get taken in by them. I'm letting anyone listening know that this is not a good, right or valuable thing to say or think.

And you missed the point of 1984 completely: they couldn't change the way people thought by using words. They tried and failed.Funny. Looked to me like it worked super-well.
But more to the point, that's my main access to this concept of language-afecting-ideas. There's plenty more out there on it, I just haven't read any of it, but I found 1984 a good demonstrator of the concept.
I wish that Hellcat girl was around to help, she knew all about this stuff...

[LOTRfan]

And you missed the point of 1984 completely: they couldn't change the way people thought by using words. They tried and failed.

P.S. 1984 is fiction.


Funny. Looked to me like it worked super-well.

I have no idea how one cannot see that it worked perfectly well. The very concept of doublethink was able to transform the citizenship of Oceania into nothing more than unthinking masses who were tricked into thinking they had control over their own lives.

The children were the secret police of the government, and in another mere thirty years, Newspeak would have become the official language, making communication (along with thinking and emotion) completely obsolete.

Oceania's government (along with Eurasia's and Eastasia's) succeeded in the most complete way possible.

[Sarco_Phage]

It succeeded so completely, in fact, that the question of whether or not Eurasia and Eastasia actually exist is never brought up.

[ZombyWoof]

Then I'm not targetting him, I'm talking to the people who might listen to his bitter rantings and get taken in by them. I'm letting anyone listening know that this is not a good, right or valuable thing to say or think.
You're letting everyone know that using certain words in a phrase is an easy way to piss you off, yes. You're even letting everyone know that you disagree with a certain interpretation of that phrase! What you're also letting everyone know is that you're perfectly willing to crucify anyone who uses that phrase whether or not they happen to agree with your particular interpretation of that phrase.

If you want to give people the impression that women are more than two-dimensional people who think in terms of these simple categories of humans, you would do better, I think, to respond to these instances with a gentle assurance of correction than by jumping on someone's throat because their phrasing doesn't coincide with what you want them to say.

When my friend K tells me that "all men suck" I respond with, "I'm pretty sure we can both agree that not all men suck." Know what she says after? "Yeah, yeah, I know." It's a gentle push to remind people of the truth while letting them vent using hyperbole. It's also much better for your bloodpressure than getting enraged about it every time someone misphrases a forum post.

EDIT: it didn't work because people still rebelled. That was kind of the point of the whole book. People still grew up in it and rebelled against. If thought-speak was perfect, then our protagonist could not have even considered abandoning the party.

[LOTRfan]

EDIT: it didn't work because people still rebelled. That was kind of the point of the whole book. People still grew up in it and rebelled against. If thought-speak was perfect, then our protagonist could not have even considered abandoning the party.

Newspeak wasn't completed, though. It wouldn't be until the early 2010s. Despite this, they had succeeded in brainwashing the majority of the population's youth.


It succeeded so completely, in fact, that the question of whether or not Eurasia and Eastasia actually exist is never brought up.

Exactly! The descriptions of both rival governments sound so despicable in the propaganda mentioned in the book, but they are just different ways of explaining Oceania's own government. Bringing this up in conjuction with the fact that the missiles launched by the enemies increased by a drastic amount during Hate Week makes one wonder if it was really an "enemy" at all.

1984 is one of those great books that you can talk about for hours and hours... But that would be wrong, as it would hijack this thread. :smallredface:

[Serpentine]

Noone said it was perfect, only that it works. The very point at the end of the book was that the Party was successful in its goals. There might be the occasional peek of dissent, but true revolution is very nearly impossible. The point of the whole book is that this is how totalitarianism can win.

And I would like to point out that, as far as I'm aware, you haven't seen how I respond to people genuinely lamenting the "Friend Zone". Generally, I just direct them to my siglinks, because I am sick and tired of having this conversation at all. All you've seen is how I respond to people saying "who gives a **** what anyone says, even if it's wrong and ****? They're just saying it cuz they're angry! We should let anyone say anything they want when they're cross without question or disagreement, even when it is harmful, ubiquitus, and just plain wrong, and even when it is constantly perpetuated outside of immediate frustration as though it's unquestioned fact and a totally reasonable way to portray women and handle relationships!"

[Sarco_Phage]

EDIT: it didn't work because people still rebelled. That was kind of the point of the whole book. People still grew up in it and rebelled against. If thought-speak was perfect, then our protagonist could not have even considered abandoning the party.

When they rebel, that's when they step on their face. I'm pretty sure O'Brien made that clear.

[Erloas]

As a semi tangent to the friends zone thing and the "women only like jerks" part, is that I believe there are several different versions of the term jerk being used by different parties and that is the part that no one really seems to look at.

Obviously no one would date a jerk. But if you listen to the vast majority of complaints from women about guys they tend to have common themes. Having known a lot of guys, especially when you can hear them talk about women when there is no woman around, it seems like the majority of them are jerks. At least they are jerks the way I would define a jerk.
Of course like many things, some people can hide some things for a long time, or at least not make it too obvious. Of course its not just in relationships either, its also in work situations and any other long term dealings with people.

And I can't really find the right way to really try to decisively define what I'm trying to say. Its either going to be too vague or something more akin to a thesis paper then a forum post.

The short version is that I think women are a lot more lenient in judging men then other men are. And of course the opposite is true too, that women are much more critical of other women then men are towards women.

And if so many people weren't jerks I don't think we would have all the same reasons popping up for relationships ending, even after years.

[Sarco_Phage]

That's probably because they're competing, so to speak, for the same thing for the most part.

[Serpentine]

I've heard it suggested that, for example, women dress up for other women (not sure about men for men). Dunno how true it is, jus' sayin'.
edit: And also there's a fine line between "arrogant prick" and "confident fellow". Interestingly... I know two guys I'd call confident, outgoing and the like, but who other guys I've talked to call arrogant (specifically, my ex by various people (male and female), and a friendly acquaintance by my Boy).

[celtois]

Hey o' RWA thread.

Sorry to broach a completely different topic but I have a rather frustrating problem I would like to address.

Basically it is problem with a certainly friend (We'll call them J). Now I've had a boatload of troubles with this 'friend' before but I'll try and start near the beginning and give you a brief overview.

Warning: Pre-Teen - Teen Drama commences here:


My story starts in grade eight, (To put this in context I'm not in grade 12). When I first met J, being the generally nice person I was I stop up for J despite them being teased on all fronts by pretty much everyone for being different. They have some form of social inability, most likely in the form of a mental illness. I'm probably one of the only people who is nice to J.

Grade Nine Anyways from there J starts to become quite clingy, and some of the people I hang out with notice this and start teasing me and J about how J is chasing after me. Which is not uncommon for middle school. Anyways this goes on for sometime with me being nice to J, and J getting clingy and overly attached. We aren't the closest of friends or anything but J certainly seems to want to be.

Grade Ten, things continue going down hill from here, with a lot of my friends joking that J is trying to screw me. So on so forth, I have no romantic interest in J. At all. J continues to be clingy then starts to try and pursue my I think... in a very roundabout fashion. Me being oblivious doesn't really notice it. They continue to get pushy, then start pushing towards a relationship using a clue bat, I start to get the picture here, and do my best to ignore J/cut them out of my life. This results in a summer of emails where I spend a whole bunch of time trying to deal with this problem. Ya da da, I make it clear to J that I'm uncomfortable being pursued and they seem to get that.

Grade eleven, J starts off this year by talking to me about how they want to make this year drama free. It doesn't last long and this ends up being one of the messiest years of high school. J constantly pursing my time and starting to hang out with my friends only one of which who can stand them. J's crush doesn't really seem to have ebbed at all and they continue to actively pursue me despite me having explained the situation. Situation gets worse and worse them constantly bothering me and my friends, they start talking to one of my friends about their crush they are very emotional all the time thanks to their mental condition and delicate home situation(Which comes into play more later. Basically J feels their parents don't support or care for them, constantly fights with them and lots of friction at home.) My friends eventually insist I talk to J about this crush which I don't reciprocate at all. I explain the situation AGAIN to J when they try to ask me out tell them I'm not interested at all... that's that they agree to back off problem solved and they apparently start crushing on other people. (Also deletes me off then tries to re-add me on facebook. Which is more humorous then anything else.) (Which I find out late down the line was supposed to make me jealous. >.< Dumb people. :smallsigh:)
Anyways situation continues building they apparently having moved on and trying to bring things back to normal, we start talking again.. situation comes to a crescendo when on a several day long school trip person K starts pursing me pretty obviously and J is all frustrated about it, while I am interested in neither they both spend lots of time and energy trying to get my attention. I try and ignore/avoid them pair of them, however on the last day of the trip J tries to start holding my hand, and I pull away from them, they run off, away from the rest of the group... wee, K ends up going to find and talk to J, I have no idea what went down with that, rest of the year passes awkwardly as I try and avoid both of them, which leads up to the second summer of emails. Where I have to talk the situation down again and this time I supposedly succeed and everything is going to be cool again, no more drama this coming year.

Grade 12: Year starts, things go along smoothly enough, conversations with J remain awkward as they have no concept of personal space, or proper hygiene with braces. J apparently is crushing on one of the teaches now, which is a problem for a variety of reasons but I'm grateful J's decided to stop focusing on me. However at this point if I have a bad day or something and I don't want to talk to people J decides to confront me every time about why I don't want to talk to them. They ask why I seem to have an easier time talking to people who are not them, and despite my anti-social tendencies they continually press for my time and attention and start to break down whenever I don't want to or am unable to give to them. I am also their go to source for complaining about all their family problems to.


Basically I have a 'friend' who won't go away is extremely clingy and demanding of my time, however they are extremely emotionally unstable, they have a crappy family condition and I am their only source for dealing with all their problems. As well do to their social condition they have trouble making friends they lack a social network besides me to go to. (They act exceptionally social/come on strong, but most people push them away.) What do you suggest I do? I'm generally an inherently nice person and don't want to hurt them, but I find their desire to try and claim my time and create drama in my life, incredibly hard to deal with, especially as I tend to be the go to person among my friends to rant about emotional baggage, and I already have a lot more of my own this year.

I don't want to hurt them or risk they hurting themselves or others.. but ..yeah also don't want my every action to be analysed and to be confronted about. After all sometimes I just need to be left alone.

So once again the question: what would you do?

EDIT: Not really relevant to the question but I'm totally expecting a bunch of drama with this person when prom gets closer, I'm fairly certain J will ask me despite all this. :smallsigh:

[ZombyWoof]

Let me point out the phraseology in your links, shall I?



The "friend bin" or equivalent, as used everywhere I've seen it, as opposed to being talked about, as in this discussion
Already you're being very aggressive, and in addition, you're making a red herring (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html) fallacy. You're specifically stating that even though what you have to say is irrelevant to what's being discussed, you're still going to rail against it. Even though you're talking about something else.


Boy: I like you. As in, you know, like.
Girl: You are my friend. You have also been categorised as "a friend who I will never date, ever, no matter what, because you're my Friiiiieeeeeennnnnnd, and I never want you to be any more than that", and therefore I will never date you, ever, no matter what.
Boy: Dang.

Heavy use of sarcasm here to get your point across. Sarcasm is typically used aggressively, and is also generally used to imply that your point is obvious.


I have a bit of advice for all you guys (mostly) out there. Give up on the whole "friend bin" thing. If I found out that one of my friends was saying that the only reason I won't snog him is because he is irrevocably in the "friend bin" or equivalent, my response would be outrage: How dare you reduce my entire psyche to such an over-simplification, how dare you presume to know my most intimate emotional workings beyond what I've already expressed to you, and how DARE you shunt all your insecurities and flaws onto me?!
That's extremely aggressive and is pretty much what I've been saying you do: burn the gentleman at the stake for using a phrase you don't seem to like.



Among the innumerable implications are that: a female's emotions and opinions are immobile and constant, her mind is unchangable, and she is in no way effected by outside stimuli;
The implications are that she doesn't like you and that she will not like you for the foreseeable future. You're projecting an assumption of inferiority.


frienships are absolutely inferior to physical relationships;
Again, the complaint is because the man in question doesn't want a friendship, he wants a physical relationship. So yes, to him, a friendship is strictly inferior to a physical relationship. Back to the ice-cream analogy, if I want chocolate I will be upset that they ran out of chocolate whether or not they give me vanilla as a substitute. I may even say something like, "Man, they're always out of chocolate."


a guy is only hanging out with a girl because he wants to get with her;
The reason the guy was hanging out with her was because he wanted to date her. I'm sorry, I don't see the problem with this. When he finds out dating isn't possible, he'll then stop hanging out with her. Isn't that what is known as moving on?



and that the only real factors in a girl's choice of significant other is whether they're classified as "datable" or "friend".
Red herring again. All "man, friends zone" implies is that he recognizes that she doesn't want to date him now or for the foreseeable future. Because she said, "I don't really like you that way."



Your female friend may be a) Not interested, b) Secretly interested, c) Just hasn't looked at you in that way yet, or d) Is more interested in someone else.
a) then I'm moving on because she doesn't see me the way I see her
b) then she's either got to own up to her feelings or a relationship wouldn't work anyways
c) I have yet to see this ever happen, but even if it did, she didn't like me when I liked her. So I moved on.
d) then I'm moving on because settling is bad, and feeling like she's settling will ruin the relationship.



None of these are unchangable!
All I have to ask you is this: Do you really suggest that guys hang around a girl in the desperate hope that she'll change her mind about dating you? I personally cannot and will not suggest that anybody hang around someone else in the radical hopes that they'll some day "see the light" and ask you out.

So yeah, I've seen, read, and re-red your links. I do not disagree with the message behind them, but they are very aggressively worded and I think you would do a whole lot better to be gentle about it rather than streaming off bold font about how you're pissed and offended that someone would ever utter the words "friends zone" in your presence.

Oh, except I very much disagree with what appears to be your implication in the last two quotes. Pining over someone is generally a bad idea, so if I know I'm going to be pining over you when I'm around you even though I can't have you, wouldn't it be better to just not hang around you?

And just as it's OK to not want to date someone, it's OK to not want to be friends with them.

[Sarco_Phage]

Hey o' RWA thread.

Sorry to broach a completely different topic but I have a rather frustrating problem I would like to address.

Basically it is problem with a certainly friend (We'll call them J). Now I've had a boatload of troubles with this 'friend' before but I'll try and start near the beginning and give you a brief overview.

Warning: Pre-Teen - Teen Drama commences here:


My story starts in grade eight, (To put this in context I'm not in grade 12). When I first met J, being the generally nice person I was I stop up for J despite them being teased on all fronts by pretty much everyone for being different. They have some form of social inability, most likely in the form of a mental illness. I'm probably one of the only people who is nice to J.

Grade Nine Anyways from there J starts to become quite clingy, and some of the people I hang out with notice this and start teasing me and J about how J is chasing after me. Which is not uncommon for middle school. Anyways this goes on for sometime with me being nice to J, and J getting clingy and overly attached. We aren't the closest of friends or anything but J certainly seems to want to be.

Grade Ten, things continue going down hill from here, with a lot of my friends joking that J is trying to screw me. So on so forth, I have no romantic interest in J. At all. J continues to be clingy then starts to try and pursue my I think... in a very roundabout fashion. Me being oblivious doesn't really notice it. They continue to get pushy, then start pushing towards a relationship using a clue bat, I start to get the picture here, and do my best to ignore J/cut them out of my life. This results in a summer of emails where I spend a whole bunch of time trying to deal with this problem. Ya da da, I make it clear to J that I'm uncomfortable being pursued and they seem to get that.

Grade eleven, J starts off this year by talking to me about how they want to make this year drama free. It doesn't last long and this ends up being one of the messiest years of high school. J constantly pursing my time and starting to hang out with my friends only one of which who can stand them. J's crush doesn't really seem to have ebbed at all and they continue to actively pursue me despite me having explained the situation. Situation gets worse and worse them constantly bothering me and my friends, they start talking to one of my friends about their crush they are very emotional all the time thanks to their mental condition and delicate home situation(Which comes into play more later. Basically J feels their parents don't support or care for them, constantly fights with them and lots of friction at home.) My friends eventually insist I talk to J about this crush which I don't reciprocate at all. I explain the situation AGAIN to J when they try to ask me out tell them I'm not interested at all... that's that they agree to back off problem solved and they apparently start crushing on other people. (Also deletes me off then tries to re-add me on facebook. Which is more humorous then anything else.) (Which I find out late down the line was supposed to make me jealous. >.< Dumb people. :smallsigh:)
Anyways situation continues building they apparently having moved on and trying to bring things back to normal, we start talking again.. situation comes to a crescendo when on a several day long school trip person K starts pursing me pretty obviously and J is all frustrated about it, while I am interested in neither they both spend lots of time and energy trying to get my attention. I try and ignore/avoid them pair of them, however on the last day of the trip J tries to start holding my hand, and I pull away from them, they run off, away from the rest of the group... wee, K ends up going to find and talk to J, I have no idea what went down with that, rest of the year passes awkwardly as I try and avoid both of them, which leads up to the second summer of emails. Where I have to talk the situation down again and this time I supposedly succeed and everything is going to be cool again, no more drama this coming year.

Grade 12: Year starts, things go along smoothly enough, conversations with J remain awkward as they have no concept of personal space, or proper hygiene with braces. J apparently is crushing on one of the teaches now, which is a problem for a variety of reasons but I'm grateful J's decided to stop focusing on me. However at this point if I have a bad day or something and I don't want to talk to people J decides to confront me every time about why I don't want to talk to them. They ask why I seem to have an easier time talking to people who are not them, and despite my anti-social tendencies they continually press for my time and attention and start to break down whenever I don't want to or am unable to give to them. I am also their go to source for complaining about all their family problems to.


Basically I have a 'friend' who won't go away is extremely clingy and demanding of my time, however they are extremely emotionally unstable, they have a crappy family condition and I am their only source for dealing with all their problems. As well do to their social condition they have trouble making friends they lack a social network besides me to go to. (They act exceptionally social/come on strong, but most people push them away.) What do you suggest I do? I'm generally an inherently nice person and don't want to hurt them, but I find their desire to try and claim my time and create drama in my life, incredibly hard to deal with, especially as I tend to be the go to person among my friends to rant about emotional baggage, and I already have a lot more of my own this year.

I don't want to hurt them or risk they hurting themselves or others.. but ..yeah also don't want my every action to be analysed and to be confronted about. After all sometimes I just need to be left alone.

So once again the question: what would you do?

Gimme a sec to read your post and I'll give you my two cents. :smallsmile:

[Serpentine]

Whatever. I was sick and tired of this discussion before it even happened. Shall we move on to helping people, now, please?

[Sarco_Phage]

Okay, celtois, I'm going to just say that you're in a wee dilemma. On the one hand, associating with J is just causing you stress and drama, and that's no good. Were you older and in an environment that doesn't necessitate close contact with your peer group every day, I'd suggest just cutting J off and never talking to them again... but then, that wouldn't be very nice.

Most people would say that other people aren't your responsibility, but I'll leave it up to you to decide that. You seem to be J's only real friend, in a manner of speaking. Will they recover if you cut them off? Will other people understand why you have cut them off? And can you live with yourself if you sever ties, knowing this was a person who ostensibly needed you? If you can say yes to those questions, I think you may as well sever ties.

[Skeppio]

Whatever. I was sick and tired of this discussion before it even happened. Shall we move on to helping people, now, please?

Ok, that is it!

Why should anyone listen to you, or take your advice, when all you show is tireless aggression and a steadfast refusal to admit any wrongdoing or fault on your part? You're not perfect. None of us are. But your refusal to see the other side, and then cutting off the argument when it's clear that others aren't going to just back down without a word, just shows the air of superiority you drape yourself in. For everyone's sake, please drop the ego and LISTEN to the points others make. Please.

Sorry if I'm being hypocritically aggressive, but the whole "I can do no wrong" attitude is a very raw patch with me. Just as the 'friend zone' is a raw patch with you. I see your point clearly. Can you see mine?

[ZombyWoof]

It depends on whether you'll be upset and forum-scream at them for using a particular harmless phrase.


H
Basically I have a 'friend' who won't go away is extremely clingy and demanding of my time, however they are extremely emotionally unstable, they have a crappy family condition and I am their only source for dealing with all their problems. As well do to their social condition they have trouble making friends they lack a social network besides me to go to. (They act exceptionally social/come on strong, but most people push them away.) What do you suggest I do? I'm generally an inherently nice person and don't want to hurt them, but I find their desire to try and claim my time and create drama in my life, incredibly hard to deal with, especially as I tend to be the go to person among my friends to rant about emotional baggage, and I already have a lot more of my own this year.

I don't want to hurt them or risk they hurting themselves or others.. but ..yeah also don't want my every action to be analysed and to be confronted about. After all sometimes I just need to be left alone.

So once again the question: what would you do?

EDIT: Not really relevant to the question but I'm totally expecting a bunch of drama with this person when prom gets closer, I'm fairly certain J will ask me despite all this. :smallsigh:
There is a very pertinent comic for you. (http://xkcd.com/383/)

He is way over his bounds and he is wearing you thin. I advocate being there for other people and being strong for them and stuff like that, but there are times when it is too much.

I think you are at the point where you need to look after yourself. Decline to be there for him, refuse to be his crutch. If you honestly believe him to be at risk for suicide or something else of that nature, inform some sort of authority figure. Quite frankly, this little bird needs to learn to fly on his own, because you cannot live your life around him. What happens next year when you go to college? Does he follow you? AIM you or call you constantly? What happens after college if you move to Kenya and fall in love with some beautiful tribal boy/girl and get married?

You cannot put your life on hold for someone else. You cannot say "I will stop living because I fear the consequences to you if I do not." That's a way of giving him control and domination over your life and is not healthy for any individual involved.

Being blunt did not work and quite frankly what he is doing is a level of unacceptable that I would consider speaking with school authorities about stopping his behavior if he consistently ignores your requests to leave you alone. It is harassment which is a synonym of bullying and is most definitely emotionally abusive and has to stop.

I italicize these words because they are very powerful words and they are 100% true. In the real world (because let's be honest, until you're 18 you're supposed to be "protected" from the real world) what he is doing by disrespecting your wishes to be left alone would be grounds for a restraining order.

[Sarco_Phage]

I dunno, don't you at least pity poor J a little bit? I'm a perpetual crying shoulder for my RL friends, which means that I can understand that simply having someone to talk to is good.

Oh, also, **** Randall Munroe, I swear, he offers very little positive to this discussion.

How can you state, categorically, that what you're saying is true anyway?

EDIT: Celtois, what I'm saying is, he's not your responsibility unless you want him to be.

[ZombyWoof]

I dunno, don't you at least pity poor J a little bit? I'm a perpetual crying shoulder for my RL friends, which means that I can understand that simply having someone to talk to is good.
I pity him, but I also pity the poster. J may have huge problems in J's life, but part of sharing your problems is to share the burden. Relationships (friendships are a subtype) are give and take. J is a taker and all J is doing is taking.



Oh, also, **** Randall Munroe, I swear, he offers very little positive to this discussion.
He's 100% right here though. You CAN'T TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S HAPPINESS. This is bolded because every time you try you basically help someone suffer from codependency. It's not healthy.



How can you state, categorically, that what you're saying is true anyway?
I am "that guy" that everyone comes out to. But instead of it being about whether they're gay or straight, it's about whether or not they've been sexually molested or raped. I am "that guy" that everyone talks to about their depression and their anxiety, and how much they want to kill themselves or how they feel dirty or how they can't trust anyone because of how poorly they've been treated. I got to get "that phonecall" every night when one of my female friends woke up in a cold sweat because "they thought they heard something" and "I want to stay on the phone with you just in case something happens." My GOD I wish the things people were afraid to tell me was something as simple as "I like other dudes." Hell, I'd even welcome the "and it's because of my feelings for you I found out" conversation because that's 10x better than "So yeah when I was 8 my step-dad decided that it was play time" and then giving me the gory details.

And it caused depression in me.

So it's from experience, if you were curious.

[Sarco_Phage]

Christ in hell, WHY ARE ALL YOUR FRIENDS SERIOUSLY TROUBLED.

You know what? I'm going to mostly defer to your experience as a crying shoulder. My friends only ever come to me because of man trouble, and all I have to do is sympathize and be reasonable.

[celtois]

Aww man Sarco, now I just feel incredibly guilty about the fact that I probably won't talk to them again after moving all the way across the country. >.> Which I intend to do as soon as this year is over.

(Even if I wanted to try and keep in touch with them I'm terrible at maintaining contact with people who are far away or I don't have reason to interact with regularly. Though truthfully I'll probably use moving as an excuse to cut them out of my life. )

Daily interaction with them is impossible to avoid as I have drama class with them, as well they like to accidentally bump into me in all the places I normally spend time at in school.

Due to a variety of circumstances they have less and less ways to contact me at this point. Primarily because they got mad at me deleted me off everything and I never bothered to re-add them when they asked I if I would.

I know for a fact they won't be able to follow me after high school, they are far to cash strapped to be able to afford to move to the other side of the country, or attend the university I want to go to. I don't intend to put my life on hold for them, but yeah. I guess the question is more about the immediate situation.

They have a mental illness, an incredibly unsupportive family and practically no friend base. Wouldn't abandoning them be kinda like pitching a bird with a broken wing out of a nest and expecting them to fly? I don't want to hurt them I.. just want them to start finding people besides me to rely on for everything.... especially because I don't expect to talk to them much/at all after high school

And on the last part that might be a little harsh, I have told them before I still want to be their friend though I start to doubt that more and more each day, and I've never asked them to stop coming to me for help about their problems. They have it seems stopped pursing me romantically.. I hope. Though as I mentioned in the last little note I fear what might come up at Prom. :smallsigh:

As for the give and take thing, it's part of I think how the person functions socially, it causes a lot of their issues, as most conversation I have with them are awkward because the extent of talking about things that I'm invested in tends to be how are you? Most of the time the conversations I just have to nod and try and be supportive, we rarely have conversations where I can start talking about stuff I'm passionate about but always have conversations about stuff their passionate about. I'm not sure it's their fault they might just not get it.

[Sarco_Phage]

You might have to let him down, though. I mean, tell him, outright, that you're not uncomfortable being pursued by him in any fashion, but that you don't enjoy it, and if he wishes you to remain his friend, that you would rather he fixed himself up.

An ultimatum can help.

[celtois]

I forgot to mention it during the brief run down of what happened but J has been given that ultimatum stop pursuing me if you want to be friends. It seems to have worked so far. At least since the endish of grade 11. However I'm just worried that J will do something stupid at Prom/Grad.

There is no guarantee of that mind you just me taking a guess based on past history.

The real problem is the present desire to constantly talk to me and demand my attention and getting upset/confronting me when that doesn't happen. Or they feel like I'm avoiding them. Which does happen. Often when I'm really upset the last thing I want to do is deal with people, particularly people who like to ask how are you.

[ZombyWoof]

Christ in hell, WHY ARE ALL YOUR FRIENDS SERIOUSLY TROUBLED.
I'm sorry I snapped it's... still really troubling. A lot of the problems I have right now can be traced back to a few things in my life, and being "that guy" definitely did not help at all, and in fact sent me down a small spiral that I was teetering on before.
I'm still too proud to seek help about it until one of my IRL friends tells me to.



They have a mental illness, an incredibly unsupportive family and practically no friend base. Wouldn't abandoning them be kinda like pitching a bird with a broken wing out of a nest and expecting them to fly? I don't want to hurt them I.. just want them to start finding people besides me to rely on for everything.... especially because I don't expect to talk to them much/at all after high school
You do not have the ability to cure or abate his mental illness. If he has a mental illness, I recommend, and I mean highly recommend, speaking with a counselor at your school. It's highly likely that an adult (or at least someone perceived as an adult) will be much better at convincing the parents that J needs medical attention.

Oh and before the question gets asked: mental illnesses do in fact require medical attention. That does not always mean medication, and in fact medication is typically used as a stop-gap while other, more long-term forms of therapy are examined. As a counselor I went to once described it, "Some people can't even think positively because they are so used to thinking negatively that their brain doesn't produce enough positive-juice. For those people I tend to prescribe a temporary dosage of anti-depressants so they can get used to thinking positively again." Granted it's a vast oversimplification of what's going on in the ultimately amazing brain-chemistry of a human suffering from a mental illness, but it does give insight into standard practice. It's similar to what doctors do for most diseases: send you home with tylenol to alleviate the symptoms and let your body's immune system work its magic.



And on the last part that might be a little harsh, I have told them before I still want to be their friend though I start to doubt that more and more each day, and I've never asked them to stop coming to me for help about their problems. They have it seems stopped pursing me romantically.. I hope. Though as I mentioned in the last little note I fear what might come up at Prom. :smallsigh:

If you're fearing your interactions with J, that's a very good sign that there is a problem that needs correcting.



As for the give and take thing, it's part of I think how the person functions socially, it causes a lot of their issues, as most conversation I have with them are awkward because the extent of talking about things that I'm invested in tends to be how are you? Most of the time the conversations I just have to nod and try and be supportive, we rarely have conversations where I can start talking about stuff I'm passionate about but always have conversations about stuff their passionate about. I'm not sure it's their fault they might just not get it.
Well here's the thing. That's a unidirectional relationship and if they don't get it then they need to understand it. It's kind of like saying it's not J's fault that J doesn't know how to read. The only reason the underlying cause is important is because it will give you a clue as to the best teaching method available.

I don't want to comment on whatever condition he may or may not have, but you are not qualified to help him deal with that condition in the way he needs. If he has a condition that can be or has been diagnosed, he needs professional help from people who have spent years studying the condition and how to alleviate or even correct it.

I know it feels like abandoning him in the lurch, but the other option here is you abandoning yourself.

EDIT: It is OK to be selfish as long as you are not always selfish, much like it is OK to be selfless as long as you are not always selfless.

[Sarco_Phage]

I forgot to mention it during the brief run down of what happened but J has been given that ultimatum stop pursuing me if you want to be friends. It seems to have worked so far. At least since the endish of grade 11. However I'm just worried that J will do something stupid at Prom/Grad.

There is no guarantee of that mind you just me taking a guess based on past history.

Well, he sounds like the type to make a big dramatic gesture on the misguided assumption that it would be romantic, but I suggest not worrying about it and trying instead to minimize opportunities when you must be in contact with him.

[Gaelbert]

Hey o' RWA thread.

Sorry to broach a completely different topic but I have a rather frustrating problem I would like to address.

Basically it is problem with a certainly friend (We'll call them J). Now I've had a boatload of troubles with this 'friend' before but I'll try and start near the beginning and give you a brief overview.

Warning: Pre-Teen - Teen Drama commences here:


My story starts in grade eight, (To put this in context I'm not in grade 12). When I first met J, being the generally nice person I was I stop up for J despite them being teased on all fronts by pretty much everyone for being different. They have some form of social inability, most likely in the form of a mental illness. I'm probably one of the only people who is nice to J.

Grade Nine Anyways from there J starts to become quite clingy, and some of the people I hang out with notice this and start teasing me and J about how J is chasing after me. Which is not uncommon for middle school. Anyways this goes on for sometime with me being nice to J, and J getting clingy and overly attached. We aren't the closest of friends or anything but J certainly seems to want to be.

Grade Ten, things continue going down hill from here, with a lot of my friends joking that J is trying to screw me. So on so forth, I have no romantic interest in J. At all. J continues to be clingy then starts to try and pursue my I think... in a very roundabout fashion. Me being oblivious doesn't really notice it. They continue to get pushy, then start pushing towards a relationship using a clue bat, I start to get the picture here, and do my best to ignore J/cut them out of my life. This results in a summer of emails where I spend a whole bunch of time trying to deal with this problem. Ya da da, I make it clear to J that I'm uncomfortable being pursued and they seem to get that.

Grade eleven, J starts off this year by talking to me about how they want to make this year drama free. It doesn't last long and this ends up being one of the messiest years of high school. J constantly pursing my time and starting to hang out with my friends only one of which who can stand them. J's crush doesn't really seem to have ebbed at all and they continue to actively pursue me despite me having explained the situation. Situation gets worse and worse them constantly bothering me and my friends, they start talking to one of my friends about their crush they are very emotional all the time thanks to their mental condition and delicate home situation(Which comes into play more later. Basically J feels their parents don't support or care for them, constantly fights with them and lots of friction at home.) My friends eventually insist I talk to J about this crush which I don't reciprocate at all. I explain the situation AGAIN to J when they try to ask me out tell them I'm not interested at all... that's that they agree to back off problem solved and they apparently start crushing on other people. (Also deletes me off then tries to re-add me on facebook. Which is more humorous then anything else.) (Which I find out late down the line was supposed to make me jealous. >.< Dumb people. :smallsigh:)
Anyways situation continues building they apparently having moved on and trying to bring things back to normal, we start talking again.. situation comes to a crescendo when on a several day long school trip person K starts pursing me pretty obviously and J is all frustrated about it, while I am interested in neither they both spend lots of time and energy trying to get my attention. I try and ignore/avoid them pair of them, however on the last day of the trip J tries to start holding my hand, and I pull away from them, they run off, away from the rest of the group... wee, K ends up going to find and talk to J, I have no idea what went down with that, rest of the year passes awkwardly as I try and avoid both of them, which leads up to the second summer of emails. Where I have to talk the situation down again and this time I supposedly succeed and everything is going to be cool again, no more drama this coming year.

Grade 12: Year starts, things go along smoothly enough, conversations with J remain awkward as they have no concept of personal space, or proper hygiene with braces. J apparently is crushing on one of the teaches now, which is a problem for a variety of reasons but I'm grateful J's decided to stop focusing on me. However at this point if I have a bad day or something and I don't want to talk to people J decides to confront me every time about why I don't want to talk to them. They ask why I seem to have an easier time talking to people who are not them, and despite my anti-social tendencies they continually press for my time and attention and start to break down whenever I don't want to or am unable to give to them. I am also their go to source for complaining about all their family problems to.


Basically I have a 'friend' who won't go away is extremely clingy and demanding of my time, however they are extremely emotionally unstable, they have a crappy family condition and I am their only source for dealing with all their problems. As well do to their social condition they have trouble making friends they lack a social network besides me to go to. (They act exceptionally social/come on strong, but most people push them away.) What do you suggest I do? I'm generally an inherently nice person and don't want to hurt them, but I find their desire to try and claim my time and create drama in my life, incredibly hard to deal with, especially as I tend to be the go to person among my friends to rant about emotional baggage, and I already have a lot more of my own this year.

I don't want to hurt them or risk they hurting themselves or others.. but ..yeah also don't want my every action to be analysed and to be confronted about. After all sometimes I just need to be left alone.

So once again the question: what would you do?

EDIT: Not really relevant to the question but I'm totally expecting a bunch of drama with this person when prom gets closer, I'm fairly certain J will ask me despite all this. :smallsigh:

I don't know what J's mental health is like. Is J in some sort of special learning program? If so, you should talk to the instructor of that program.
If not, which is much more likely, you won't be able to be perfectly nice. J is going to have to "fly on his/her own," to extend your metaphor, next year when you move away anyways. No matter how you choose to deal with this, you're only prolonging the inevitable. It's rough, it sucks, but it's true. Also, I suggest trying to get J to see a psychologist of some flavour. I don't know what resources you have at your school, but psychologists are always helpful. There's a terrible stigma attached to seeing one, which is tragic because they can and do help.
Of course, this all comes from someone whose strategy for dealing with high school drama was waiting it out until college, then never talking to anyone again. Your mileage may vary.

[Serpentine]

It depends on whether you'll be upset and forum-scream at them for using a particular harmless phrase.It's not a "harmless phrase".
Ok, that is it!

Why should anyone listen to you, or take your advice, when all you show is tireless aggression and a steadfast refusal to admit any wrongdoing or fault on your part? You're not perfect. None of us are. But your refusal to see the other side, and then cutting off the argument when it's clear that others aren't going to just back down without a word, just shows the air of superiority you drape yourself in. For everyone's sake, please drop the ego and LISTEN to the points others make. Please.

Sorry if I'm being hypocritically aggressive, but the whole "I can do no wrong" attitude is a very raw patch with me. Just as the 'friend zone' is a raw patch with you. I see your point clearly. Can you see mine?Fair cop.
I'm "cutting off the argument" because I'm just getting angrier and angrier, and I don't particularly want to get another infraction over this. I'm calm enough now after a shower that I might be able to address his last post more calmly, but I just don't really want to. This is not an argument I enjoy having, and I heave a deep sigh every time it comes up and am glad to see the back of it when it moves on.
I believe I see his side, I just categorically disagree with his premise that what someone says when angry doesn't matter, and thus there's no point disagreeing with them. Because this Friend Zone nonsense does matter - the very fact that it comes up so frequently is testimony to that.
I'll throw in one more comment on the Friend Zone thing: either the definition is false, misleading and demeaning and therefore harmful, or it is so extremely individually-tailored that it is effectively meaningless. Either way, it is a term I believe should be removed from our vocabulary, especially in a thread that is devoted to giving practical relationship advice.

Sorry Celtois, I don't have much to offer. I have heard it suggested before that giving a troublesome friend a choice between having a friend or a counsellor can help, but I dunno if it applies here.

[celtois]

They already supposedly are getting treatment for it. They regularly talk with out school guidance councillor, I believe they talk with a psychologist, and they take meds for it.

However J takes all of that really badly and goes down the path of there is nothing wrong with me, they're all just wrong about. They also like to blame their issues on their parents and siblings, when they acknowledge them at all.

J also makes a point of saying stuff like saying thanks for being here for me through all this, sorry for being so emotional all the time. Your the family I wish I had. Which just makes me feel all the worse about the idea of abandoning them.

There is definitely a problem that needs correcting problem is a freeze up and stall whenever I feel I might hurt someone. Meaning I often find myself lying >.> to J as well as other people >.<

O.O the whole selfish vs selflessness advice directly parallels advice I gave someone else recently, have I been completely ignoring what I talk about. :smalleek:



Yeah Sarco that is kinda the reason I am expecting that. It's totally in J's style. The problem with avoiding them is I'm in a small school, and avoiding them basically means not going anywhere I like to go, or like to hang out. :smallfrown:

Gaelbert, that was basically my strategy as well wait it out a little longer then vanish. I feel if I'm half way across the country they won't expect as much from me then if they see me every day. Meaning dropping them will be way less awkward and it won't result in J confronting me several times.

[Skeppio]

Fair cop.
I'm "cutting off the argument" because I'm just getting angrier and angrier, and I don't particularly want to get another infraction over this. I'm calm enough now after a shower that I might be able to address his last post more calmly, but I just don't really want to. This is not an argument I enjoy having, and I heave a deep sigh every time it comes up and am glad to see the back of it when it moves on.
I believe I see his side, I just categorically disagree with his premise that what someone says when angry doesn't matter, and thus there's no point disagreeing with them. Because this Friend Zone nonsense does matter - the very fact that it comes up so frequently is testimony to that.
I'll throw in one more comment on the Friend Zone thing: either the definition is false, misleading and demeaning and therefore harmful, or it is so extremely individually-tailored that it is effectively meaningless. Either way, it is a term I believe should be removed from our vocabulary, especially in a thread that is devoted to giving practical relationship advice.

Fair enough. Thank you for listening to me, and I'll return the favour by ceasing this argument myself. It's passed now anyways. Glad we could end on a civil note. :smallsmile:

[ZombyWoof]

@Serp: if my last post went through I apologize sincerely for it. It was a mistake to post it and I tried to delete it immediately because it was unfair to you and not the message I wanted to convey. The message I wanted to convey was mild disappointment that someone so generally open-minded would be so unable to sit down and listen to different views, even after she agreed that she was being close-minded. Unfortunately the server appears to have gone down in the middle of my editing it.

It is a subject you do not want to discuss so I will not pursue it any further at this time, though if it does come up in the future I hope you can keep in mind that you may be overreacting to a phrase that isn't as harmful as you think it is. I hope you can also understand that while I do not think you are completely wrong, I do think that you are at least in part wrong in method and approach and I hope that you will respect that if you comment on it again I will disagree with you again.

In other words, while we understand that we disagree now, we are also agreeing to let it sit for now because the moment has passed, but in the future we will disagree again and I'm not going to say nothing in the future because I'm letting it drop now.

On a side note:
I understand very much that accusing someone of "overracting" is on some stupid list somewhere of "victim blaming" but I do also want to point out that just because someone says you're overreacting doesn't mean they are wrong. I would very much hope that any discussion we have with regards to anything on this forum and anywhere else, for that matter, could be limited to the arguments and ideas at hand rather than delving into outside sources for reasons why certain questions are "inappropriate." There is nothing more frustrating than being told that I cannot challenge your reaction to something as an "overreaction."

Similarly, comments like "you just can't understand" and "there's no way you get that..." or "you've never seen this" will drive me up a wall.




J also makes a point of saying stuff like saying thanks for being here for me through all this, sorry for being so emotional all the time. Your the family I wish I had. Which just makes me feel all the worse about the idea of abandoning them.
This is emotional abuse. If J were your genderfriend I would suggest dumping J's lousy bum and breaking all contact. There is no excuse for abuse.
that's my new catchphrase, btw


There is definitely a problem that needs correcting problem is a freeze up and stall whenever I feel I might hurt someone. Meaning I often find myself lying >.> to J as well as other people >.<
See below.



O.O the whole selfish vs selflessness advice directly parallels advice I gave someone else recently, have I been completely ignoring what I talk about. :smalleek:
Yes. It happens to everyone. But fortunately that's why you have friends, who are willing and able to point out when you've screwed up!



Yeah Sarco that is kinda the reason I am expecting that. It's totally in J's style. The problem with avoiding them is I'm in a small school, and avoiding them basically means not going anywhere I like to go, or like to hang out. :smallfrown:
Don't try to avoid it, that way lies madness. Push it from your mind and don't worry about it: either he will do it or he won't, and nothing you do will change that. "Grant me the strength to change what I can, the courage to withstand what I can't, and wisdom to tell the difference" and all that.



Gaelbert, that was basically my strategy as well wait it out a little longer then vanish. I feel if I'm half way across the country they won't expect as much from me then if they see me every day. Meaning dropping them will be way less awkward and it won't result in J confronting me several times.
Push him away now so that he gets used to it. It's like weaning a child off of a breast rather than simply one day saying "Yup! No more milk for you!"

[Gaelbert]

There is definitely a problem that needs correcting problem is a freeze up and stall whenever I feel I might hurt someone. Meaning I often find myself lying >.> to J as well as other people >.<

Gaelbert, that was basically my strategy as well wait it out a little longer then vanish. I feel if I'm half way across the country they won't expect as much from me then if they see me every day. Meaning dropping them will be way less awkward and it won't result in J confronting me several times.

I'm very much the same way. In this case, J's going to be hurt no matter what you do (unless you change your mind about moving out, but don't do that). The difference is, if you start pushing J back now J will be better adapted when out of high school. This is one of the rare occasions when you need to be selfish in order to be selfless.
I won't lie to you though. Moving away worked very well for me. I can't help to think though, that things might have worked better had I dealt with them when they happened and not suffer until the end of the year.

[celtois]

I suppose. I hesitate to accuse anyone of abusing me though. It just seems to unfair to be like, Hey you know how I've been being your rock for the last little while, well your being to clingy about it well I think you need to learn to handle problems on your own. It just seems to wrong to be like I was helping you but now it's abuse you know? ... :smallfrown:

Yeah, they do like to point out when you screw up.

So just tough out the situation with them and try deal with the daily encounters without stress?

The problem with the last part is every time I've tried to reduce their reliance on me, just by slowly talking to them less, or not making an effort to interact with them, J confronts me about it, usually starting with, something like, Hey sorry if I'm just overreacting, but I did I do something wrong I feel like you've been avoiding me?



(Well I'm not changing my mind about were I'm going. Absolutely thrilled to be going to school there. :smallbiggrin: I guess your right about pushing away now to help later, any suggestions on the above cycle?

Avoidance has tended to be my preferred method for dealing with problems that don't seem to go away after I confront them.. or sometimes even before I confront them.)

How do you deal with that... usually it starts like that, I provide reasons, sometimes even the real reasons, after which point J starts talking about all the issues at home that are stressing them out, apologizes for over reacting, then insists on hugging me and crying on me. Before leaving, after which point J starts claiming a little more attention, then I start to wean off again and the cycle continues.

How would you deal with it!?

[Vonriel]

Honestly, I don't know. I do know you need to end the friendship, though, because continuing to be friends with this person is mentally harmful to you. Also, you should probably seek to talk to his therapist if possible, to let him know what J has been putting you through. Though, I don't know exactly how acceptable that is, I've only ever had one friendship I had to end because of my mental health, and the person I was friends with was actively refusing to see someone.

I do feel sorry for your situation, and I completely understand what you're going through, though. :smallfrown:

[ZombyWoof]

How I think you should deal with it has been stated.

I would deal with it the same way you are, which is why I can tell you so vehemently that it's unhealthy and you should do pretty much anything else :smallwink:

[celtois]

So when the cycle of I wean off, J confronts, I explain, J brings up family problems, J cries/hugs, demands more attention, wean off .... starts again, how can I handle the confrontation? Just say something like, it's nothing personal but I feel you need to handle situations without needing my help. If I say that I bet they will continue asking for my attention, but start bottling in their problems.

How do you put, you need to stop worrying that I'm not paying attention to you all the time, and start being your own rock for all your problems. Without it being so blunt that I have to deal with another emotional breakdown/confrontation about the previous confrontation.
It's just ... I can't picture a single way of approaching this that doesn't result in more drama for me over the course of the rest of the year.

The last person that J tried to be friends with they aggravated to point of exploding. The guy has personal space issue and J has no concept of personal space. The result of him telling J to leave him alone, was J trying harder to make it up to him, constantly talking to him and bugging him having no respect for his personal space. Anyway I can ensure that J doesn't try and 'win me back'

[Sarco_Phage]

Be strong, celtois, if you can ride out the year, then it'll be done.

[ZombyWoof]

So when the cycle of I wean off, J confronts, I explain, J brings up family problems, J cries/hugs, demands more attention, wean off .... starts again, how can I handle the confrontation? Just say something like, it's nothing personal but I feel you need to handle situations without needing my help. If I say that I bet they will continue asking for my attention, but start bottling in their problems.
Frankly... "I feel that you need to handle these situations without me. It's starting to take a toll on me and I'm starting to dread talking to you, and that's not fair for either of us."



How do you put, you need to stop worrying that I'm not paying attention to you all the time, and start being your own rock for all your problems. Without it being so blunt that I have to deal with another emotional breakdown/confrontation about the previous confrontation.
It's just ... I can't picture a single way of approaching this that doesn't result in more drama for me over the course of the rest of the year.
"You need to stop worrying about me paying attention to your own problems. I believe that you're strong enough to take care of things yourself, and I think you should try relying on yourself."

Give him a little more credit and I think he'll be fine. A lot of times what people need is tough love and someone who believes in them.

[Vonriel]

Unfortunately, with the way you describe the person, I don't think anything short of actually cutting them off from you will get the message across. I feel like the way you put it in your second paragraph should normally be enough, but I also feel like J is incapable of processing it correctly.

[celtois]

Erm, okay so second paragraph level of blunt but with a nice twist if believing in themselves. Yeah that might... maybe do it. Given they often worry that their family and nobody believes in them.


I have to admit at first I thought that the suggested comments were directed at me, and I was like woah! You make a fair point maybe I do need to just handle this one my own.

EDIT: Yeah I do kind of describe them that way. J might be less (or more :smalleek:) clingy then I describe them, after all I can only describe my impression of them.

[ZombyWoof]

I have to admit at first I thought that the suggested comments were directed at me, and I was like woah! You make a fair point maybe I do need to just handle this one my own.

That was totally unintended but we can think of that as a happy side-effect :smallwink: Really though I do believe that going up to him and telling him in almost the same words what you want to convey to him is the best option. If you've seen me give advice in this thread (or anywhere else) you'd know that I am a huge proponent of direct honesty.

I think the best chance you have of getting through to him and helping him fly on his own is to push him out the nest and cheer him on at the same time.

Oh and this comes from personal experience. Some time ago I suffered from depression until one person "kicked me out of the nest." Long story short, that person is now my very best friend and I dream of meeting someone else like that person in the faint hopes that I could maybe meet this (female) someone else and marry her. :smallwink:
(no, I'm not even remotely joking.)

EDIT: Also wanted to throw in that people are remarkably resilient. Don't forget that! :smallsmile:

[celtois]

Yeah, lets go with that. :smalltongue:

Heh, and I'm a chronic white liar to try and keep everyone around me happy. Well looks like that is what I'll have to do. Time to start the wean off cycle again but this time push J off the edge when it gets to the confrontation. Just have to.. *gulp* do it.

Yes, being pushed out of your comfort zone can be extraordinarily helpful, it can also be one of the most painful experiences in your life. Well I guess that about wraps that up.

Now I have to decide if I should delete all my posts just in case I'm being followed. :smallwink: (Only half joking here it wouldn't surprise me if J followed me on various internet sites that I commonly frequent. )

[ZombyWoof]

If it all goes to hell in a handbasked I'll give you my address so you can mail me a punch to the face, ok? :smallwink:

(Seriously though I think everything will turn out for the better. Usually the sting of leaving the comfort zone is only temporary).

[celtois]

I might hold you to that. :smalltongue:

(I kid of course. But I expect the confrontation will happen in the next week or so and I'll let you know the result of it. )


(Yeah temporary >.> ......I wish it worked that way for me.)

[ZombyWoof]

Maybe take a deeper look at why it isn't temporary? :smallwink:

[celtois]

Yeah but that is a completely different issue altogether. One that I only have a slight idea about what is wrong. >.>

Maybe I should start looking for a shrink, every time I start talking with someone about any people issues I might have I end up noticing all sorts of problems with myself. :smalleek:

Or you know just think about the problems and stuff. Yeah I might just do that.

[ZombyWoof]

I actually recommend a shrink, as you put it, for anyone. There is absolutely no bad that can come from talking about your problems and issues to an impartial third-party, especially if that third party is specifically trained in dealing with issues!

I don't recommend it because I think you're broken, mind. There's a lot of... stigma... to getting a shrink but meh.

[Lady Tialait]

Alright guys, get ready for a brain twister that I have been dealing with. Mind you, I am a happily married woman of almost seven years, and mother of one. Give or take a few issues with the in-laws, and the fight between me and my husband here and there (Mind you, when you are as close as a husband and wife get...fights happen.) my marriage is picture perfect.


This means I am the go-to friend for when anyone is having any relationship problem EVAR. I've gotten good at avoiding them, but...this one got me into it because it interfered with gaming. I get annoyed when things get in the way of my gaming. My wedding got delayed three times because we ran long on a game session.....to the problem!

One of my best friends from years and years ago, I've known him sense kindergarten, decided it was a good idea to bring forth the interwebz womens. I told him there are in fact no women on the interwebz, while I was typing up a post in the SMBG here at the playground. Perhaps I should have been in the kitchen at the time to get my point across....showing off my sammich making skills. Anyway, he summoned what I can only describe as the creature from the ugly lagoon. My other friends call her 'the buck toothed spider', if that gives you any visuals. She lived with him, and drove him nuts. He was coming over all the time, and finally I told him if he complained to me about her one more time I would get a new human-skin rug that looked like him. Two days later, he dumped her, and kicked her to the street.

Here is where the story gets interesting. My friend had gotten a ticket, and never paid it or appeared in court for it, mostly because he is stupid. And sense he had dumped this...creature....she decided to call the police, and tell them that he was at his house, where that was, and then add that he had a sword collection. She also implied that me, my husband, and my friend had threatened to cut her with it.

Teh police showed up, and we were having fun. I was a little tipsy, my husband was messing with a pocket knife, my cousin was in the middle of some light larp involving a 4 foot long unsharpened longsword, and my friend was in the bathroom. The house has picture windows, and the cops kick in the door, with guns out screaming at us. My friend is the only one who freaks out and runs out his back door without any pants on, and screaming. He gets arrested.

OH WAIT! There is more, as if this didn't annoy me already. They almost dragged off my husband and my cousin, but I was able to talk them down, three days or so later, bail was set, but nobody we know has money. However, the creature found out, and got a loan to bond my friend out. I find out that my neighbors who are the closest thing I know to saints have taken the creature in. As my friend's house is small, and untill he gets his door fixed, he can't really live there very well he came to stay in my guest room.

I have had to call the police on the creature twice, because of 3am screaming at my house about how she owns my friend because she paid to get him out of jail....

This was pretty much just a rant, there is no advice you can give unless you think a shotgun really is a good idea...I've considered it.

[ZombyWoof]

It sounds like she's trespassing as well as disturbing the peace and harassing you. Plus I bet there are some counter-suits available. Contact a lawyer!

[absolmorph]

It sounds like she's trespassing as well as disturbing the peace and harassing you. Plus I bet there are some counter-suits available. Contact a lawyer!
Yeah, if she's on your property, she's trespassing.
That's definitely disturbing the peace and sounds pretty much spot on for harassment, too.
Plus, while your friend may owe her for bailing him out of jail, that's a far cry from "owning" him. At most, he owes her a social debt, unless he signed something saying he'd repay her or do something else.
Extra emphasis in ZombyWoof's post on the important part.

[Gaelbert]

Yeah, if she's on your property, she's trespassing.
That's definitely disturbing the peace and sounds pretty much spot on for harassment, too.
Plus, while your friend may owe her for bailing him out of jail, that's a far cry from "owning" him. At most, he owes her a social debt, unless he signed something saying he'd repay her or do something else.
Extra emphasis in ZombyWoof's post on the important part.

He owes her nothing at all! He wouldn't be in jail if it weren't for her calling the police and making up vague threats.
That's a terrible story. I really hope it works out for everyone involved.

[DeadManSleeping]

I told him there are in fact no women on the interwebz, while I was typing up a post in the SMBG here at the playground. Perhaps I should have been in the kitchen at the time to get my point across....showing off my sammich making skills.

Just want to step aside here to point out that dating women from the internet is a viable thing in this day and age.

Onto the rest of the post.

Honestly, bail or not, I would never feel any obligation to someone who had maliciously sent me to jail, and never felt any guilt for doing so. Forcing her off your property is a good start. A lawyer might be expensive, but I think that excising this person from your life is very important for you all right now. She seems dangerous.

[Glass Mouse]

Lady Tialait: That really sucks, I'm sorry. I don't have any advice, though - other than perhaps a restraining order? I don't know how easy they are to acquire.


So once again the question: what would you do?[/COLOR]

ZombyWoof already gave you the perfect approach, so I'll only expand upon that.

You need to make it clear (for yourself mostly) whether you want J to cut down or to completely stop depending on you. I'd say a complete stop would serve you best. If they're anything like the dependent types I've run across, you can't give them a pinkie without them taking the entire arm.
Be sure to take the responsibility yourself, though. You think J is a pain, yes, but that's not why you're requesting this. You're doing it because YOU can't handle it. It's an important distinction and one that makes it much more likely that J will listen.
And be tough about it! It's very likely that J won't respect your request, and then it's your job to go "J! We've talked about this! I don't want to hear it!" no matter how hard it is.

Another, important point: you're at a point where you're actually resenting them, and... well, there's not much left at that point. Having a friendship out of pity is very unfair to both parties.
I'm sorry for my bluntness, but right now, you're not a very good friend to J. You're definitely a very kind and selfless person, and you're doing much out of the goodness of your heart, but you're not a very good friend. At this point, you're nothing but a reluctant, lying, glorified rock.
J may be dependent, annoying and self-absorbed, but they deserve a real friend just as much as you deserve your personal space. In the end, no one benefits from the current situation.

I'm really glad you're taking the fight now instead of just ducking your head. You'll run into these types all your life, and if you don't learn to be a little selfish, you'll draw them like moths.
So... You're doing something difficult, but very good for yourself, and you need a little credit for that. Go Celtois! :smallsmile:

[Keld Denar]

Lady Tialait, I had a similar situation with an ex gf. Never quite to the that level, but almost as serious. She tried to blackmail me, saying that she was going to tell the police that I raped her if I didn't take her back (cause you know, I have a soft spot in my heart for blackmail and other forms of extortion). I recommend you keep VERY good records of everything she does, and has done, and then go to the police and file for a non-contact order. Trust me, judges are very good at telling crazy people. The judge ruled against my ex in about 3 heartbeats. It was uncanny how easily she cut through her bull****, it was like watching a young Judge Judy.

That'll get the police involved, and keep things from escalating against your friend. Because it will escalate...trust me.

[Syka]

Uh, dude, this has been pretty much standard since the 90's - women in the corporate world and otherwise are thankfully earning (almost) what they deserve, rather than taking a hit to their wages. However, imagine not just being the primary breadwinner, but the only consistent breadwinner.

Both of you working and earning? Fine.

You, only, working consistently, supporting someone who by all rights should be on his feet? I dunno about you, but that don't sit right with me.

Just to address this.

That is going to pretty much be Oz and I in less than a years time. I'll be working full time and the primary- and likely sole- bread winner. He'll either be in school or getting film jobs (some...a lot...of which will probably not pay).

I've got absolutely no problem with this. Should he be able to support himself? Sure. The thing is, his passion is in a field that doesn't pay well, if at all, for the first several years.

He won't be sitting on his butt, by any means. He knows he has to be working towards success. Progress has to be made. But I honestly don't mind if it doesn't ever make him steady money, as long as he's loving what he is doing.

I jokingly tell him I want to be able to retire by the time I'm 40, but...really, I don't mind. The look on his face when he saw him film on a big screen for the first time was enough of a reward to me. Seeing him come home invigorated by his job rather than depressed (he currently has a 'day job') is worth it.

I figure if I like what I'm doing, and it can support us* then...why worry?

It should be noted, I have been approached by guys going into jobs that would pay well, and dated one. Their ambitions and such matter more to me than what their actual job is.

[Lady Tialait]

Oh police have been called. Yeah. It's mostly just annoying me. It cut into game.

[Gaelbert]

I actually recommend a shrink, as you put it, for anyone. There is absolutely no bad that can come from talking about your problems and issues to an impartial third-party, especially if that third party is specifically trained in dealing with issues!

I don't recommend it because I think you're broken, mind. There's a lot of... stigma... to getting a shrink but meh.

This. Very much so. If you can find a way to talk to a shrink, if you can find a way to pay for it, it is very much worth it.

[Keld Denar]

Oh police have been called. Yeah. It's mostly just annoying me. It cut into game.

Even such, get like, a little notebook or something and just record all the dates, times, durations, and a little summary of EVERYTHING you can remember. You will forget the details in time, and you don't want anything to come back to bite you or your friend. There is no such thing as TOO much evidence, especially if she tries to pull some BS that'll end up resulting in jail time for any of your friends.

When I was filling out my non-contact order, I had pretty good notes, and even then, some things were a little fuzzy and I was starting to mix up events in my head. It may seem like something you'll remember forever in vivid details, but the mind is a funny thing. Write it down.


Yeah, if she's on your property, she's trespassing.

Not really. If there is prior permission established, such as a relationship, then consent is pretty much considered given. You have to actually revoke permission at that point in order for it to be tresspassing. Again, document things, especially if you've ever sent her a text message, email, or other written form of communication that voices your desire of non-contact. In order to have a non-contact order, you have to issue such a statement and then have proof that she did not respect your desire. Otherwise your intent may not be clear in the eyes of the law, and the judge may just dismiss it. I won't say more because this board frowns upon giving legal advice, but I don't think "document document document" oversteps those bounds.

[ZombyWoof]

It should be noted, I have been approached by guys going into jobs that would pay well, and dated one. Their ambitions and such matter more to me than what their actual job is.
I want to be a doctor and eventually use the funds from that to branch out into educational theory and spend the waning years of my life consulting and lecturing trying my damndest to get the US educational system back on track.

Is... is that good enough? :smallwink:

But yeah I agree about the job thing. I currently have a job that pays the bills and, as much as I love my co-workers and agree that it's a good place to work, hate it. I hate it because there's no... challenge, no... stimulation. I show up, run the same procedure on 10 computers, get 10 customers who threaten to call their lawyers because our hardware protection plan doesn't cover their viruses, get asked 10 times why I didn't squeeze money out of them, then go home.

[Syka]

I want to be a doctor and eventually use the funds from that to branch out into educational theory and spend the waning years of my life consulting and lecturing trying my damndest to get the US educational system back on track.

Is... is that good enough? :smallwink:

But yeah I agree about the job thing. I currently have a job that pays the bills and, as much as I love my co-workers and agree that it's a good place to work, hate it. I hate it because there's no... challenge, no... stimulation. I show up, run the same procedure on 10 computers, get 10 customers who threaten to call their lawyers because our hardware protection plan doesn't cover their viruses, get asked 10 times why I didn't squeeze money out of them, then go home.

That's why Oz hates his current job- there is nothing to it. He's still there, 'cause we need the money to move, but really doesn't like it.

Mine is a bit better since our managers will give us some leeway. Like, this weekend I set up three Easter displays. My managers were basically like "We need this type of Easter stuff there. Make something pretty." and I get to chose what items go up there, etc.

But still...he has ambitions, and that's why I don't care if his pay check isn't steady.

Then again...we also kinda throw gender stereotypes and roles on their head so...yeah. ;)

[Force]

I'm with Zombie. I'm a nursing student who spent a little too much time living in a Southeast Asian slum and wants to get his RN, then his nurse practitioner's degree, and either go back there or go somewhere else and help improve quality of life. Probably not attractive as it's not stable, but it is a cause, and it is something I believe in strongly.

Good enough?

[Syka]

Not everyone feels that way, but for people like me- yeah. :)

I want to start off in a multinational and either stay and be heavily involved with an NPO of some sort (I like Amnesty International and other human/animal rights organizations, for instance), or work full-time with an NPO. Maybe start my own one day.

[Force]

Too bad there aren't more Sykas. -shiftyeyes- Got a sister? :smallamused:

[Syka]

Too bad there aren't more Sykas. -shiftyeyes- Got a sister? :smallamused:

Yes.



She's married. :smallbiggrin:

[Force]

Yes.



She's married. :smallbiggrin:

Blast you, Syka, for getting my hopes up! :smallamused:

[Vonriel]

Lady Tialait, I imagine at this point it's too late to really give any helpful advice - curse my schedule! - but I'll at least chime in with my support. I agree with Keld Denar, and I hope things work out for the best with this.

As for the rest of you schmucks, stop trying to pick up Syka, we all know she's very happily taken. :smallwink:

[Jonesh]

Well ok, so uh, about two months ago or something I had another problem that I brought up in the previous thread.
A short summary; I had a girl over for dinner and a movie, some stuff happened but not enough. Thing is, I thought she played with my emotions because she knew I have had a crush on her just a few months before so a few days later when she said it was a one time thing I got kind of well, pissed and disappointed.
I pretty much got over it though, because just a few days after that I met my cute co-worker (about whom I lately have regaled many tales to you about :smalltongue:) so it's all good.

Now, I didn't expect to ever speak with this old crush again and I prefered it that way but she IM'd a few hours ago and we just recently stopped talking.
She had seen me post in a thread she about a get-together where we might, circumstances willing, meet again and that had gotten her to think about me again.
At first I was like "Oh damn, not her again" but I resolved myself to at least be cordial but after some chit-chat I eventually said my piece about what I thought was her bitchy behaviour.
She apologized profusely and said that she never wanted to hurt me but at first she didn't want to tell me the reasons why she acted the way she did.
At the time, she still had issues with her ex, she was also stressed (to catch the bus home) and she kind of panicked that I had fallen for her again (honestly I had, but if you're making out with a hot girl who is funny and interesting and she starts to want to do all kinds of intimate stuff, I'm only human, I did know she was probably not ready for a relationship at the time and I was willing to take it slow) plus she was afraid she was gonna have some issues with what we did (use your imagination :smalltongue:).

And well, I don't know. She might still be a manipulative, uh, broad. I can't know for sure, but I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt for the time being as one of my best friends says she can vouch for her sincerity.
Plus I'm not really into being vindictive or petty or whatever and I do miss our talks.

But then she says I'm a fine/good person and that she likes fine/good persons (the swedish word she used has lots of translations and definitions so it's hard to know exactly what she meant). I don't know, it probably means nothing but that she even goes and says something like that :smallconfused:

And even if I'd want to uh, hang out with her I probably can't because of my crush on my cute coworker. Because the window of time where I'm still "technically single" and allowed to fool around is rapidly closing because if I can meet this girl it's gonna be next week which is when I have my dates with my coworker (i.e. I think I'd no longer be single) or maybe this week/weekend.
And I kind of want to... She is very pretty and intelligent and we actually share a lot of interests that I don't have in common with my coworker, plus the whole thing that we have uh, unfinished business kind of irks me too and I want some closure.

Bleargh, I should probably let this lie :smallsigh: I'm probably just feeling sentimental in the wee small hours of the morning...
Not an entirely appropriate song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqmgldSVgXM) but hey, it's hard to get enough of Frankie boy and I just had to link this now that I just used that phrase :smallredface:

I tried... FRIEND ZONING!!!! (sorry, I couldn't help myself :smallbiggrin:) her by telling her about my current crush. Didn't seem to help, but what do I know.
I don't know what to do or what to ask. I couldn't tell before if she was flirting or not so I'm even less sure now.

[Coidzor]

So. I've found myself considering a girl I'd basically written off as ever being interested in or ever being interested in me. To the point where at one point a few months ago I loudly declared to the entire gathering of our friends after being accused of shamelessly flirting with her that I was as candid with her as I had been for having written off any possibility of seducing her, whereas with women I'm trying to sleep with I generally don't do so much toeing of the line of inspiring rageface.

Kinda randomly too, as it wasn't even triggered by her getting a haircut or anything, as though she did change her appearance, it happened after I had started noticing her.

Does this sort of thing seem as weird and random in general as it does to me? As it seems rather odd and out of the blue. Rather annoying too, since it's not like I've decided to fall in love or at least intense, amorous infatuation, where I'd feel some sort of drive to act on it or could find some thread to pick and say "ahah! I have finally snapped," or "ahah! I am so desperate to get laid I have decided to pursue all possibilities."

[Vonriel]

I tried... FRIEND ZONING!!!! (sorry, I couldn't help myself :smallbiggrin:) her by telling her about my current crush. Didn't seem to help, but what do I know.
I don't know what to do or what to ask. I couldn't tell before if she was flirting or not so I'm even less sure now.

You sure have a knack for playing with fire, don't you? :smallamused:

This is decision time for you. I don't know either of these people, nor you, well enough to make any sort of call on this, so this is entirely upon you. You have a few options, some of which are more savory than others. You can choose one or the other, this is obvious. You can also choose to meet up with both, either discreetly or openly. Personally, with the way the old girl treated you, I'd say leave her be, because it's somewhat odd that she couldn't be this open and honest with you before. Also, for your coworker's sake, you need to only pursue one person at a time. Otherwise.. well, it just feels duplicitous, and unfair. If things fall through with your coworker, fine. But until some resolution with her is made, I think it'd be inappropriate to look into other options for a relationship before the relationship is even started.

Edited for Coidzor's post: No, I don't think it's random at all. As you continue to associate with someone, your opinions of them may change. And when you associate with someone who's of the gender of your preference, it's always possible that some feelings will develop. The question isn't whether it's random, but rather, what do you plan on doing about this?

[Syka]

While you aren't exclusive yet, if you want a chance with your coworker you need to evaluate how this may affect your chances if you pursue the old girl.

A couple friends of mine (who are a couple) had a nasty experience when they were in the between stages and almost didn't become a couple because he fooled around with someone else after she'd mentioned she would not like that but prior to actual coupledom.

Yes, you aren't together. But it may change her opinion of you, unfairly or not.


Also, I'm uncertain of how fooling around with the other girl further would lead to closure? That just...confuses me. I mean, I enjoy physical intimacy as much as the next person but closure within a relationship has never come from consummation of physical desire. *shrug*



In other news, periods are bitter sweet. Pro: Not with child. Con: Cramps (surprisingly mild this time), fatigue (surprisingly heavy this time), and hormone induced neediness. Boyfriend is such a trooper and I'm not sure anyone could convince me to have a period every month ever again. Evar.

[Keld Denar]

So, I managed to hit on a girl after yoga today. It took some setup, and a lot of confidence. We were both pretty disgusting and sweaty, which was kinda awesome. We have a fair bit in common, including a love of yoga and hiking. I even kinda sorta asked her out to go hiking with me, and she asked if I wanted to join a 5k with her.

Unfortunately, like all the smart, beautiful, fit, funny, and beautiful ones, she has a boyfriend. GRRRRRRETFESTGFDTGSEFDGSDFGHADFJHKHDSHLDSKJHFDSLH! !!!!

[Coidzor]

So, I managed to hit on a girl after yoga today. It took some setup, and a lot of confidence. We were both pretty disgusting and sweaty, which was kinda awesome. We have a fair bit in common, including a love of yoga and hiking. I even kinda sorta asked her out to go hiking with me, and she asked if I wanted to join a 5k with her.

Unfortunately, like all the smart, beautiful, fit, funny, and beautiful ones, she has a boyfriend. GRRRRRRETFESTGFDTGSEFDGSDFGHADFJHKHDSHLDSKJHFDSLH! !!!!

Just something about being "put together" in this day and age means having at least a placeholder mate. :/ Which has the unfortunate tendency of leaving one with the options of either A. not put together individuals and the difficulties in finding one that is still compatible with where one is in one's own life and B. narrow windows of time.

I guess maybe there's a slim chance of finding someone who wasn't interested in anything before one showed up on the scene but that's so unlikely it shouldn't even be countenanced.

Still, kudos on the doing. :smallsmile: I'm trying to build up my confidence so I don't go through the last 40 years of my life as unprepossessingly as I went through the first 20.


In other news, periods are bitter sweet. Pro: Not with child. Con: Cramps (surprisingly mild this time), fatigue (surprisingly heavy this time), and hormone induced neediness. Boyfriend is such a trooper and I'm not sure anyone could convince me to have a period every month ever again. Evar.

On the other hand, the effect on who you're attracted to and all that pheromone and immune system tweaking is quite the mind ****** when one actually stops to consider it.

I'm half-tempted to curl up into the fetal position with existential angst and I don't even have it as an active concern for messing with my consciousness directly.

[Syka]

Yeah, I've heard a lot about the scent stuff. Particularly in my Psych of Relationships class.

Thing is, I react to medicines similarly to my mom. She was on the Pill for over a decade, I think. The first part of her relationship with my dad she was on it, then she was off and (as far as I know) there was never any issue with attraction.

I'm not really sure it even has an affect on me, to be honest. I was attracted to Ex pre-Pill, started it sometime in the year we were apart (I think, so about 16-17), and was still physically attracted to him afterwards.

The other thing is, unless I go to a 'full' dose of estrogen (as opposed to the low-dose Pills), my mental state is the same as pre-Pill. The only definite difference I noted between pre- and post-Pill self is better cramps. And (since going continuous), less PMS. Trust me, if you were incapacitated for 2-3 days a month, you'd opt for something that doesn't seem to affect you much, too.


I'm actually curious if natural hormone levels affect whether one will have nasty mood swings on higher estrogen and triphasic Pill's. Like, if someone with naturally lower levels of estrogen would adapt better to a low-dose Pill. I know I was a crazy lady on what is considered a normal dosage of the Pill. :smalleek: Scared me off of ever doing the Shot, that's for darn sure. Now THAT was a horrifying six months.

Never again. Low dose all the way.

Lord knows I've been on it so long (currently, about 7 years or so without any breaks) that my body has probably adapted in that sense. Now I'm also curious how long the women in those scent studies were on the Pill...


EDIT: I should add, I am a lucky one. I know a lot of women who have to try half a dozen or more hormone combinations before finding one that works. I got it good on the first try, with no adverse side effects. It's only when I messed around trying to get a better cramp killer that I had a bad experience, and ironically the cramps were worse on that one. Go figure.

[ILM]

They have a mental illness, an incredibly unsupportive family and practically no friend base. Wouldn't abandoning them be kinda like pitching a bird with a broken wing out of a nest and expecting them to fly? I don't want to hurt them I.. just want them to start finding people besides me to rely on for everything.... especially because I don't expect to talk to them much/at all after high school
Let me give you the condensed substrate of my own experience with damaged friends: you can't save them. They need help you're not armed to provide, much less responsible for. It doesn't matter how much you struggle, all you can do is let them bring you down with them.

This 'friend' has been turning your life into Dramaland for four year. It's about time you cut him/her/it loose. Yeah, it's harsh, but you can't do anything for him and he's messing you up. Take control.

[Vella_Malachite]

OK. So I realise this is completely irrational, but at the moment I mean it: if I can't sort this one out, I'm staying single for the rest of my life. There. I said it.

So I'm with this guy. He's absolutely brilliant. He's smoking hot. He's smart and funny. He's thoughtful and kind. And he's really into me. We've been together a few weeks now, and it's great.

That was the disclaimer. This is the problem. How do I make him back off? I'm not particularly averse to physical stuff, and I have fun whenever there's kissing and that sort of thing, but...I feel like he's putting all of the responsibility for his happiness on my shoulders. He won't make a decision if he can get me to make it. I leave at 5pm and see him at 10 the next morning and he says he misses me. I don't think he can go for five minutes without telling me I'm wonderful, or gorgeous, or something.

I really want things to work out with this guy - when we're in public, I couldn't think of a better guy to be with...because he's forced to actually talk, rather than just stare at me. Even mostly when we're alone together, it's fine. It's just...things are starting to get on my nerves. I'm not decisive or certain enough to be with a guy who won't be more proactive.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I want an equal relationship. One where he has the same amount of choice as I do, who has the same responsibility, not one where he tries to put me on some pedestal that I'm going to keep falling off. What's the best way to ask him to have more spine without seeming like a bitch? How do I make this better?

I'm going out of my mind. I can't deal with this on my own. [/melodrama]

[term1nally s1ck]

When something specific comes up that he's doing wrong, toss out a seemingly casual idea that sounds like you're in the wrong, but is still a clear instruction.

e.g. If he agrees with everything you say no matter what:
'Sometimes I don't really think about what I say, so if that happens, just tell me you don't like that idea so I'll stop and think about it.'

This is a catch-all solution, if he's too prideful to accept advice, he won't generally realise you're giving it if you do it like this.

It's not guaranteed to work, some blokes really just don't seem to understand that their partner might want different things out of a relationship than their mothers wanted from them. It does, however, work more often than not.

And nah, you won't be single forever. Too many charming and irresistible guys like me out there. :smallwink:

[Jonesh]

A week ago my co-worker said I could flirt with other girls since I was still single... and now I recently saw she wrote on some guy's FB-wall that they we're gonna celebrate his birthday and she called him a cutie too.
Hrmf, maybe she was serious about flirting then. If that's what she is doing then I'm not gonna let any opportunities I get go to waste :smallannoyed:
I really like my co-worker, but if she is stringing me along I won't have any of it.

I started chatting with my co-worker and I'll try to explain the situation in a cordial manner and ask her opinion about it.

And well, I'm very curious as to how it would be like to hang out with my old crush because I've been thinking about that for almost a year and the crush I had on her was for about 6 months too.
Bleargh, wish me luck :smallsigh:

EDIT: Argh, she signed off. I guess she was in school and had to go quickly but damn it. This is gonna annoy me.

[Starbuck_II]

OK. So I realise this is completely irrational, but at the moment I mean it: if I can't sort this one out, I'm staying single for the rest of my life. There. I said it.

So I'm with this guy. He's absolutely brilliant. He's smoking hot. He's smart and funny. He's thoughtful and kind. And he's really into me. We've been together a few weeks now, and it's great.
That was the disclaimer. This is the problem.

I really think this is the strangest disclaimer ever. :smalltongue:


How do I make him back off? I'm not particularly averse to physical stuff, and I have fun whenever there's kissing and that sort of thing, but...I feel like he's putting all of the responsibility for his happiness on my shoulders. He won't make a decision if he can get me to make it. I leave at 5pm and see him at 10 the next morning and he says he misses me. I don't think he can go for five minutes without telling me I'm wonderful, or gorgeous, or something.

So he compliments you too much? Too clingy?


I really want things to work out with this guy - when we're in public, I couldn't think of a better guy to be with...because he's forced to actually talk, rather than just stare at me. Even mostly when we're alone together, it's fine. It's just...things are starting to get on my nerves. I'm not decisive or certain enough to be with a guy who won't be more proactive.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I want an equal relationship. One where he has the same amount of choice as I do, who has the same responsibility, not one where he tries to put me on some pedestal that I'm going to keep falling off. What's the best way to ask him to have more spine without seeming like a bitch? How do I make this better?

I'm going out of my mind. I can't deal with this on my own. [/melodrama]


Have you told him you feel he puts you on a pedestral too much? How you felt he needs to be more decisive?
Also, why do you feel you'll fall? He still places you up there because in his mind you don't fall. You stay this, "perfect" women of his dreams. Unless he has rosy vision and overlooks when you fell.

The pedestral thing is easy (if you really want to solve that one):
So stop being a lady and hiding your insecurities. Fart around him (yes, girls can fart too). Burp around him. Make sure he knows your human and have flaws and human functions things like that.
I know in general girls like to dress up for dates and look good, but you objective is to show him you can not be "amazingly" all the time.

Now the spine issue: that is harder...
Tell him in some way how you feel. Ease into it though. And don't use "you" statements.
"I feel sometimes I feel I am put on a pedestral. I'm not perfect. I don't have all the answers. " Or something like that.

[Vella_Malachite]

When something specific comes up that he's doing wrong, toss out a seemingly casual idea that sounds like you're in the wrong, but is still a clear instruction.

e.g. If he agrees with everything you say no matter what:
'Sometimes I don't really think about what I say, so if that happens, just tell me you don't like that idea so I'll stop and think about it.'

This is a catch-all solution, if he's too prideful to accept advice, he won't generally realise you're giving it if you do it like this.

It's not guaranteed to work, some blokes really just don't seem to understand that their partner might want different things out of a relationship than their mothers wanted from them. It does, however, work more often than not.

And nah, you won't be single forever. Too many charming and irresistible guys like me out there. :smallwink:

OK. So try dropping some hints first? Or, at least, advice disguised as the most blatant hints possible? I think I can do that...

I wouldn't say pride was the issue; I think he honestly doesn't realise that he's bothering me. I'm sure if I told him straight out he'd apologise and try to change, but I don't want to do that, because I might hurt him, and I really, really don't want that. But I'll do it gently, and probably gradually.


I really think this is the strangest disclaimer ever. :smalltongue:

So he compliments you too much? Too clingy?

Have you told him you feel he puts you on a pedestral too much? How you felt he needs to be more decisive?
Also, why do you feel you'll fall? He still places you up there because in his mind you don't fall. You stay this, "perfect" women of his dreams. Unless he has rosy vision and overlooks when you fell.

The pedestral thing is easy (if you really want to solve that one):
So stop being a lady and hiding your insecurities. Fart around him (yes, girls can fart too). Burp around him. Make sure he knows your human and have flaws and human functions things like that.
I know in general girls like to dress up for dates and look good, but you objective is to show him you can not be "amazingly" all the time.

Now the spine issue: that is harder...
Tell him in some way how you feel. Ease into it though. And don't use "you" statements.
"I feel sometimes I feel I am put on a pedestral. I'm not perfect. I don't have all the answers. " Or something like that.

Yes, he is a bit clingy, but, see, he's only clingy when he's with me. If that makes sense.

I've told him I feel like I'm on a pedestal that I'm going to fall off, and his response was that he knows I'm human, so he won't be disillusioned if I'm imperfect.

To be honest, I've *been* imperfect around him - I've dropped food on myself several times, I've been stressed and that sort of thing. I think it just reaffirms "adorable" in his mind, though...

So, again, ease into it, make it not his problem. OK. I'm thinking I can do this.

Would it be acceptable at this point to ask him what he's looking for in the relationship? That way I can tell him that I want equality and not to be expected to run everything, and he can tell me what he wants, so I can feel like I'm doing something in return for expecting him to change for me?

I'm just feeling so messed up at the moment...

[Frozen_Feet]

What's the best way to ask him to have more spine without seeming like a bitch? How do I make this better?

I'm going out of my mind. I can't deal with this on my own. [/melodrama]

Warning! Awful advice incoming!

Just forget about not being a bitch. Next time he's driving you mad with his indecisiveness (etc.), make it clear to him. Roll your eyes and kick at his shin or something. Pout, cross your arms, give him a stern stare and tell him "Make up your own darn mind!"

Some bickering is necessary for a healthy relationship. If you feel he needs to be jabbed for something, sometimes the right answer is to jab him. Figuratively, of course. Unless you're both into combat sports. :smallwink:

[DeadManSleeping]

@Vella: Hmm...

Well, I can guarantee you that he won't be able to keep up with it. Nobody's able to display infatuation for too long. Emotions tire out. The thing is, I can't guarantee that he'll be pleasant once that happens. If you give what you perceive as a lot of love to somebody, and don't get similar ridiculous displays in return...some people perceive that as an unequal relationship. He might even go all crazy and accuse you of 'using him' or 'stringing him along'. Yeesh.

Not to say that will definitely happen. He might be reasonable. But the longer it takes for him to stop being too infatuated, the worse it has a chance of being. So I recommend a regimen of positive reinforcement. And since simply saying that much won't help you at all, allow me to explain.

As you've noted, there are times when he behaves in a way that makes you happy. In these times, it is best to act affectionate (not PDA affectionate, of course, but physical closeness can work wonders). There are also times when he gets to be too much. In these times, you should reduce the closeness you give when he acts appropriately. He will come to realize that you respond better to certain things, and he will learn to back off when he's coming on too strong.

In addition, to promote real communication, I suggest that you tell him very specific things that you want to change, within reason. Encourage him to do his own thing. Tell him what you love to see him do, and make him want to do it even more. I have to tell you, I don't practice my guitar nearly enough these days (like 2-3 times a week instead of 7 like I should), but if my girlfriend told me she loved hearing my guitar playing, I wouldn't just do it to please her, I would actually attach more intrinsic value to playing guitar (because of human psychology, not DMS psychology). If you assign positives to his independent desires, he will want to pursue his independent desires more (all kinds of encouragement do this, but people we care about count for more sometimes).

I hope that helps. On to the next case.

@Jonesh: Okay, after all these weeks, I think I can give you some real advice.

Ask your co-worker out on a date (or however you unambiguously say "romantic outing" in Swedish, I suppose). Like, now. The next time you see her, basically. Don't flirt around with that other girl, not even a little. Seriously. Just ask your co-worker out.

And if she says no? Stop pursuing her. Flat stop. No more flirting, no more hinting. If after all this she's not ready to enter into a relationship, it's bad for both of you.

Why, you ask? Because you just said she was stringing YOU along when you, the male who desires her so openly, have not asked her out despite that being your societal role. You are stringing HER along. Stop it. Ask her on a date.[/tough love]

[Starbuck_II]

So, again, ease into it, make it not his problem. OK. I'm thinking I can do this.

Would it be acceptable at this point to ask him what he's looking for in the relationship? That way I can tell him that I want equality and not to be expected to run everything, and he can tell me what he wants, so I can feel like I'm doing something in return for expecting him to change for me?

I'm just feeling so messed up at the moment...

Yes, that might work. I don't foresee any issue with that plan. Hope it works out.

[Jonesh]

@Jonesh: Okay, after all these weeks, I think I can give you some real advice.

Ask your co-worker out on a date (or however you unambiguously say "romantic outing" in Swedish, I suppose). Like, now. The next time you see her, basically. Don't flirt around with that other girl, not even a little. Seriously. Just ask your co-worker out.

And if she says no? Stop pursuing her. Flat stop. No more flirting, no more hinting. If after all this she's not ready to enter into a relationship, it's bad for both of you.

Why, you ask? Because you just said she was stringing YOU along when you, the male who desires her so openly, have not asked her out despite that being your societal role. You are stringing HER along. Stop it. Ask her on a date.[/tough love]

Well... We have planned two unambiguously romantic outings next week, we planned those like last week. We both refer to them as URO's so there's something.
I just feel she is too slow! I am a physical and bit impatient guy, I've been wanting to kiss her for weeks!
Hell, she calls me hot all the time and all that stuff I've said, even saying that we're going to have sex at some point.
I just feels this has dragged on so long, even if her feelings are genuine (mine are) but I want to know where she and I stand on dating others since this whole almost-relationship is all backwards.
I'm probably worrying about nothing, but that does mean I'm still worried :smalltongue:
And I need to go, I have to play some Dark Heresy in an like hour.
See ya tonight.

[Erloas]

I wouldn't say pride was the issue; I think he honestly doesn't realise that he's bothering me. I'm sure if I told him straight out he'd apologise and try to change, but I don't want to do that, because I might hurt him, and I really, really don't want that. But I'll do it gently, and probably gradually.
I think this is a point to be direct and say exactly how you feel.
One thing to keep in mind is that everyone has their own idea of what clingy-ness is, and most of the time the other person doesn't actually see the problem.
The real problem comes in when you wait too long and don't give things time to change. It will take a while for you to both find the levels you are comfortable with. The thing is its only been a few weeks, its a lot easier to redefine things at that point then it is to wait for months to do it.

The thing is that it isn't so much that he things your perfect, but that he wants to make you happy. He assumes that you know what makes you happy more then he does so what you want to do will make you happier then what he wants to do, so he wants you to make the decisions.

The other part of it is, you have to be able to talk to him about this sort of thing if there is any hope for things in the future anyway. There will be a lot more equally and more difficult topics that will come up in anything long term.

And the early stages of a relationship can be very addicting, and like other addictions its hard to realize that getting too much is going to cause more problems in the long run. And of course the first step is figuring out you have a problem.

I'm 100% positive that he will be much happier to hear about his problems earlier and having a chance to correct them then he would be if you wait until you can't stand it any more, resent him, and dump him without him having any chance to change.

[ILM]

I'm just feeling so messed up at the moment...
Um no. You want your man to be a man. That's completely normal.

[Sarco_Phage]

Um no. You want your man to be a man. That's completely normal.

Haha, what.

[Syka]

Haha, what.

Agreed.


Her current SO sounds a lot like Oz- even now, although minus deferring to my opinion (we're both generally horrible at making decisions, so that's non-related to the relationship). It's not infatuation 100% of the time, but darn close (which I still find creepy since I've always been told it dies out within 18-24 months...not complaining, though).

I can definitely see how for some it would be clingy, but for others it's normal. Trust me, he's plenty man. He just likes his woman. :)

Granted, this is rather early in the relationship and I think a simple "I'm really sorry, but this is still really soon for me and I'd prefer if we took it a little slower" would not be out of line. Definitely wouldn't make you a bitch.

You may find, however, that you two prefer completely different norms within a relationship and thus aren't compatible.

Take mine and my sister's relationship. Oz and I pretty much spend all possible time together. We do do stuff separately, and we have our own friends, we just prefer to do it together. If given the option, we will be together. Before my sister got married, they were content to see each other maybe two or three times a week when they were both home (it was LDR during the semester). That is just completely foreign to me, as my desire to see Oz frequently is foreign to her.

[Trog]

You may find, however, that you two prefer completely different norms within a relationship and thus aren't compatible.
This. Many differing norms out there.

Also keep in mind that early on in a relationship is when the rose-colored glasses are often worn and the other person can do no wrong. Or, if they do, it's often brushed off. This gives the appearance of putting the other on a pedestal for a while. But he's already says that he knows your human so any disappointment on his part is his to deal with. But I doubt he'll run into too much.

If something bothers you steer him away from it with kindness.

[ILM]

Haha, what.
I'm not sure what you thought I meant so I should clarify.

Her bf is acting like he can't breathe without her, can't take a decision without her, and can't function at all if she isn't around:

He won't make a decision if he can get me to make it. I leave at 5pm and see him at 10 the next morning and he says he misses me. I don't think he can go for five minutes without telling me I'm wonderful, or gorgeous, or something.

[...]I'm not decisive or certain enough to be with a guy who won't be more proactive.
In this society we live in, men are expected to take a leading role in a relationship. That may go against all feminist learnings and may well be completely artificial and stupid, but that's how it goes. That's why the guy earlier in this thread who didn't get the girl's number but left her his own will probably never hear from her again, that's why the other person in Sweden won't get anything out from his co-worker until he asks her out. Everybody has stories of successful couples where the girl actually got into the guy's face and asked him out instead of the opposite. I'm not saying it never happens, but I am saying that's not the way things usually go.

In relationships, women want guys to have a spine, stand up for themselves, and to know what they want. That's what they mean when women say they want a confident man. This guy may be great all around, but around her he sounds like a proper grade-A mop. She could walk all over him - he'd probably let her - except she must be too nice to do so.

It's not that the guy doesn't have any opinions, obviously; he's just afraid to voice them in front of her, possibly because he's convinced that she's some kind of delicate thing that will fly away as soon as he does or say anything she may not agree with. That's a lack of self-confidence. He needs to realize that she likes him and wants to be with him, that his expressing that he'd rather have pasta than broccoli will not cause any lasting damage to their relationship, and that she won't spontaneously forget he's attracted to her if he stops saying it every five minutes.

And, for the record, I'm not saying he should go 180° and turn into a cocky, insensitive douchebag. There's a middle somewhere.

Also, I may have misunderstood Valla in the first place. By "I feel so messed up" I thought she meant she felt bad for feeling this way about the guy, and I don't think she should. If she was just generally expressing her current state of distress, forget everything I said.

[Syka]

Or your quoted part could refer to him being indecisive? Oz leaves most of the decision making (where to eat, etc) up to me because he is just so. darn. indecisive. I think if he isn't given a specific set of parameters, all the possible choices break his brain, lol. Not really kidding, either. I'm not much better, but I can do it when forced. The only thing he really makes decisions on is movies to see, lol. He still took the lead in initiating the relationship, but decisions like that are and were generally up to me.

[Coidzor]

I leave at 5pm and see him at 10 the next morning and he says he misses me. I don't think he can go for five minutes without telling me I'm wonderful, or gorgeous, or something.

Well, there's two possibilities here. One he wants to get your guard down and get you into an abusive relationship. The other, which I believe to be more likely, is that he's still in the honeymoon period of the relationship where he wants to see you all the time and maximize your happiness and is still in that mental/brain-chemical state where he's not altogether sane because he's in love. Or if he's stuck in it he'll go insane. I can't remember which one being in love counted as...

If he's just still in the honeymoon stage, well, time will help and so should calmly talking to him and coming to some kind of compromise. Or at least, telling him that him making more decisions would please you should have some effect here.


I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I want an equal relationship. One where he has the same amount of choice as I do, who has the same responsibility, not one where he tries to put me on some pedestal that I'm going to keep falling off. What's the best way to ask him to have more spine without seeming like a bitch? How do I make this better?

I'm going out of my mind. I can't deal with this on my own. [/melodrama]

I'm not exactly sure what particular facets of either his behavior or attitude is grating on you and what you're objecting to because something else is grating on you...

I imagine telling him the truth that you're not comfortable making all of the decisions in the relationship, and reminding him that confidence is generally a turn-on, should help. Have you tried to do so? If so, what kind of phrasing did you use and how did he react?

Is there any other problem other than him not making decisions about what the two of you could be doing (Or are there other decisions beyond how you spend your time together that he's deferring to you?) and absolutely adoring you?

If it's about activities and places to eat, he might not be sure what you like exactly and hasn't really processed what compromises food and activity-wise wouldn't make you upset, especially since he's still in the "omg, she's so pretty" stage of processing things. So there's a bit of both helping make sure he's remembering that lightly (or at least checking to see if that's the case) and reminding him that you're not going to bite his head off if he wants to do something that you're not head over heels in love with doing.


Well... We have planned two unambiguously romantic outings next week, we planned those like last week. We both refer to them as URO's so there's something.

She doesn't even have like, 15 minutes after you both get off work to grab coffee together or something? :smallconfused: She has to plan a first and second date 2 weeks in advance?

...That's just so weird to me. :smallconfused:

[Frozen_Feet]

She doesn't even have like, 15 minutes after you both get off work to grab coffee together or something? :smallconfused: She has to plan a first and second date 2 weeks in advance?

...That's just so weird to me. :smallconfused:

Sure it sounds awful, but these days many people are busybusybusy. Conflicting schedules sometimes have interesting side-effects.

More to the point, not all people prioritize potential romance over their other hobbies or duties. I know I'd be hard-pressed to drop a scout meeting for what's likely to be few hours of idle chatter.


Or your quoted part could refer to him being indecisive? Oz leaves most of the decision making (where to eat, etc) up to me because he is just so. darn. indecisive. I think if he isn't given a specific set of parameters, all the possible choices break his brain, lol. Not really kidding, either. I'm not much better, but I can do it when forced. The only thing he really makes decisions on is movies to see, lol. He still took the lead in initiating the relationship, but decisions like that are and were generally up to me.

It isn't always about indecision either. Some people use others as random number generators - when faced with several nearly-equal choices, they ask others to solve how they really feel. Even if they end up making the exact opposite decision, hearing outside opinion is fundamental to them.

It's like flipping a coin and the deciding "nah, I don't like tails after all".

[Sarco_Phage]

Well, there's two possibilities here. One he wants to get your guard down and get you into an abusive relationship.

You should have just gone with the "still in the honeymoon phase". I just pictured a guy in a top hat rubbing his hands together while twirling his mustache at the SAME TIME, ranting about how he's going to entrap her in an abusive relationship.

Yes.

That's what that sounded like. It sounded like Saturday morning cartoon villainy.

[arguskos]

That's what that sounded like. It sounded like Saturday morning cartoon villainy.
The best kind of villainy. :smallcool:

[Coidzor]

You should have just gone with the "still in the honeymoon phase". I just pictured a guy in a top hat rubbing his hands together while twirling his mustache at the SAME TIME, ranting about how he's going to entrap her in an abusive relationship.

Yes.

That's what that sounded like. It sounded like Saturday morning cartoon villainy.

Did you at least get a laugh out of it?


Sure it sounds awful, but these days many people are busybusybusy. Conflicting schedules sometimes have interesting side-effects.

More to the point, not all people prioritize potential romance over their other hobbies or duties. I know I'd be hard-pressed to drop a scout meeting for what's likely to be few hours of idle chatter.

For 2 weeks? :smalleek:

[Sarco_Phage]

Did you at least get a laugh out of it?

Try picturing a guy rubbing his hands together while somehow twirling his mustache. For bonus points, do it while drinking.

[Vonriel]

Or your quoted part could refer to him being indecisive? Oz leaves most of the decision making (where to eat, etc) up to me because he is just so. darn. indecisive. I think if he isn't given a specific set of parameters, all the possible choices break his brain, lol. Not really kidding, either. I'm not much better, but I can do it when forced. The only thing he really makes decisions on is movies to see, lol. He still took the lead in initiating the relationship, but decisions like that are and were generally up to me.

Remember, though, that Vella_Malachite isn't you. What you want and what she wants from a relationship could be entirely different things, and while Oz and her boy could be the same in every way, she may want to have a boy who is more decisive. It ultimately falls to how she feels in this, and what she is looking for in the relationship, and while you're happy with Oz and how he acts - which isn't wrong by any stretch of the imagination, since everyone in a relationship deserves to be happy with the way the other in the relationship behaves, and I envy you for having someone with whom you are so happy - it sounds like she may want someone who is different in this respect.

Vella, the best advice I've seen for your situation comes from the first post of this thread, in rules one and four.

Rules Of Relationships:
#1- Communicate. If you can't talk with your partner, it's probably not going to work.

#4- Hints. Do. Not. Work. Or they might, but the chance of that happening is limited. Some people are like me and just utterly oblivious unless it is blatantly stated, others are (also like me) and don't want to assume, and yet others don't care. You won't know which they belong to unless you actually spell out your intentions and/or feelings. I would consider this a corrolery to Rule #1 except that it comes up so often. Do NOT assume someone should know something from hints. Hints, by nature, are subtle. Clue Bats/Crow Bars/Mack Trucks are not. Try hitting them with one of those. ;) (No, not literally. I mean be upfront if you are trying to get someone to know something.)

Basically, be up front, but be tactful about it. Don't accuse him of anything, just gently let him know that you don't appreciate the things he does that bother you.

Edit: Crap, right, Jonesh, I promise I didn't forget about your situation. :smalltongue: I'm going to repeat myself from earlier, don't see this girl, and definitely don't see her alone. If you decide to see the old girl and hang out with her, your coworker may interpret this as you staring to see someone else, rather than just harmless flirting and an association with an old friend. And since you've admitted that she's an old crush of yours, if you meet up with her, can you keep yourself from getting physical again?

[term1nally s1ck]

It's like flipping a coin and the deciding "nah, I don't like tails after all".

One of the best ways to help someone get over a decision actually.

You tell them, 'Ok, I'm gonna flip a coin. IF it comes up heads, you HAVE to do X. If not, Y.'

I flip the coin, stand there for a minute with it covered, and then ask 'So, which one are you hoping I'm about to say.'

[Starbuck_II]

Try picturing a guy rubbing his hands together while somehow twirling his mustache. For bonus points, do it while drinking.

Reminds me of me back before I saved my mushtache back in Spring break. I loved twirling mine.
(But got a cold and got too much work cleaning face with snot caught in it when sneezed.)

[ZombyWoof]

OK. So try dropping some hints first? Or, at least, advice disguised as the most blatant hints possible? I think I can do that...
No. Tell him point blank what you want.



Would it be acceptable at this point to ask him what he's looking for in the relationship? That way I can tell him that I want equality and not to be expected to run everything, and he can tell me what he wants, so I can feel like I'm doing something in return for expecting him to change for me?
Yeah, go ahead and tell him that. Having that conversation is normal and fine.



I'm just feeling so messed up at the moment...
*hugs*

[arguskos]

One of the best ways to help someone get over a decision actually.

You tell them, 'Ok, I'm gonna flip a coin. IF it comes up heads, you HAVE to do X. If not, Y.'

I flip the coin, stand there for a minute with it covered, and then ask 'So, which one are you hoping I'm about to say.'
As someone who bases many of his most major decisions in life on a flip of a coin, I approve of this message. :smallcool:

Good man.

[Glass Mouse]

Jonesh: Yeah, I'd stick with Co-worker Girl for the time being. If you meet Old Flame, do it in a group/friend setting.
And for [insert appropriate deity]'s sake, make yourself clear on what you mean by "closure". If knowledge wasn't enough, an apology wasn't enough, what is? Whooping? Meeting in person and feeling a lack of spark? Feeling a spark? You need to have at least a vague idea before you meet her.

If you really, really wanna see Old Flame, schedule her after the dates. Possibly, you'll be more clear on your stance with Co-worker Girl (and thus know what to do about Old Flame) after that.
If you're still confused after the dates, ehh... Just know that you'll probably lose your chance with Co-worker Girl if you start messing around. Sorry to say, but you're close enough to exclusive for her to freak out (justified or not).


It isn't always about indecision either. Some people use others as random number generators - when faced with several nearly-equal choices, they ask others to solve how they really feel. Even if they end up making the exact opposite decision, hearing outside opinion is fundamental to them.

It's like flipping a coin and the deciding "nah, I don't like tails after all".

Bam.

Suddenly my boyfriend's poor advice asking skills make SO MUCH SENSE. I think I'm gonna cut down on the annoyance when he asks for my advice and then clearly doesn't listen :smalltongue: Thanks, dude.

[Vella_Malachite]

Alright. Despite the hinting at the possibility of an abusive relationship not helping my stress levels at all...

Should I wait until the "honeymoon period" is over? Is it likely to blow over on its own? That's probably a stupid question. Augh.

OK. Into manning-up-and-trying-to-fix-stuff mode...I'll let you guys know how I go with this.

Oh, and since it's been mentioned a few times...should it be bugging me that I didn't really get a 'honeymoon period'? I mean, sure, for a while, I was hanging out to see him, too...I didn't miss him terribly so much when he wasn't around, but if I knew he would be somewhere, I got nervous when he was a tiny bit late. But, I dunno...

Super Overanalysis Powers, ACTIVATE!! :smallsigh: :smalltongue:

[Trog]

Oh, and since it's been mentioned a few times...should it be bugging me that I didn't really get a 'honeymoon period'?
Only you can answer that, really.

But as an outside observer from what you've said you seem to be pretty nervous about it and maybe haven't had time to relax at all? Maybe you don't get that way around guys? Or maybe he's just more into you than you are to him. *shrug* One of those reasons seem likely.

Edit: Also, as far as the decision making indecisiveness goes perhaps suggest that you take turns deciding things. Explain that you like to decide things now and then but that you also like it when a guy takes charge too. This will give him a reason to take the initiative (you like it when he takes charge sometimes). If he's as eager to please as you say he is he'll get the hint and you'll be building him up, not tearing him down. Good luck! :smallsmile:

[AtlanteanTroll]

Little rant. I do mean little.

I hate my health teacher. Hate him. We have this dumb assignment to make a blog on a healthy relationship (and one that we're in). That's personal you dumb-crap. It would be OK, I suppose, if just he saw it, but we're suppose to make a presentation later this week. (And people without a ... special friend look even dumber then the kids who're dating. I happen to be in the w/o special friend camp.)

I'm seriously debating tanking this assignment entirely (something I've never done on a project).

[ZombyWoof]

Alright. Despite the hinting at the possibility of an abusive relationship not helping my stress levels at all...
It won't really be abusive until he starts ignoring your wishes.



Should I wait until the "honeymoon period" is over? Is it likely to blow over on its own? That's probably a stupid question. Augh.
No, don't wait. Why would you wait?


Oh, and since it's been mentioned a few times...should it be bugging me that I didn't really get a 'honeymoon period'? I mean, sure, for a while, I was hanging out to see him, too...I didn't miss him terribly so much when he wasn't around, but if I knew he would be somewhere, I got nervous when he was a tiny bit late. But, I dunno...
Don't worry too much about the so-called 'phases' of a relationship. They're largely bunk and seem mostly designed so that people can tell you how your relationship is "wrong" or whatever.

[Starbuck_II]

Alright. Despite the hinting at the possibility of an abusive relationship not helping my stress levels at all...


It was largely a joke I read it as. Don't fuss about that part.
Until he grows a twirly mustache. Then he might be a Saturday morning cartoon villian.

[Jonesh]

She doesn't even have like, 15 minutes after you both get off work to grab coffee together or something? :smallconfused: She has to plan a first and second date 2 weeks in advance?

...That's just so weird to me. :smallconfused:


Sure it sounds awful, but these days many people are busybusybusy. Conflicting schedules sometimes have interesting side-effects.

More to the point, not all people prioritize potential romance over their other hobbies or duties. I know I'd be hard-pressed to drop a scout meeting for what's likely to be few hours of idle chatter.


You're spot on FF, she has to go to practice/gym, a sambashow, study (it's her last semester in our high school equivalent) and juggle all her friends.
When we talked about this now on Sunday she said her friends basically have to tell her the date that they're gonna hang out on no matter what, much like I had to do with those two dates.
She has said we're gonna hang out a lot more in the future though.



For 2 weeks? :smalleek:

Hey, I asked her out 2 months ago! On the third day I met her. We haven't had that date yet. Imagine how I feel :smalltongue:


Crap, right, Jonesh, I promise I didn't forget about your situation. :smalltongue: I'm going to repeat myself from earlier, don't see this girl, and definitely don't see her alone. If you decide to see the old girl and hang out with her, your coworker may interpret this as you staring to see someone else, rather than just harmless flirting and an association with an old friend. And since you've admitted that she's an old crush of yours, if you meet up with her, can you keep yourself from getting physical again?

Well, I don't really have to tell her do I? We're not together. I won't lie if she asks of course, but I think it's my personal life.
And uh, I think I want to get physical with her. I haven't flirted with anyone except my co-worker for almost 2 months and now my old crush comes sauntering back, a girl that I've fantasized about getting physical with for almost a year. I probably won't get another chance and I am really frustrated about how slow it's going with my co-worker and her confusing ways :smalltongue:


Jonesh: Yeah, I'd stick with Co-worker Girl for the time being. If you meet Old Flame, do it in a group/friend setting.
And for [insert appropriate deity]'s sake, make yourself clear on what you mean by "closure". If knowledge wasn't enough, an apology wasn't enough, what is? Whooping? Meeting in person and feeling a lack of spark? Feeling a spark? You need to have at least a vague idea before you meet her.

If you really, really wanna see Old Flame, schedule her after the dates. Possibly, you'll be more clear on your stance with Co-worker Girl (and thus know what to do about Old Flame) after that.
If you're still confused after the dates, ehh... Just know that you'll probably lose your chance with Co-worker Girl if you start messing around. Sorry to say, but you're close enough to exclusive for her to freak out (justified or not).


Uh well, in this specific case the closure is to get physical and find out how good she is at that. She's the kind of girl that just oozes sexual charisma, she just seems to be really fun in that way. And neither of us want anything more serious than just a little fun.
Good, I sound a bit like a pervert don't I? :smallredface:
But I guess I'm just, well, impatient and really tempted to go for the easy satisfaction and new experience before I lose the chance.

Damn, I feel a bit indecisive like what you're talking about. I know all your advice is sound, I just feel I need to do this.
Well, that is if my old crush actually wants to get physical. Otherwise the point is moot.
I should probably go and take a cold shower now either way :smalltongue:

[Vonriel]

Well, I don't really have to tell her do I? We're not together. I won't lie if she asks of course, but I think it's my personal life.
And uh, I think I want to get physical with her. I haven't flirted with anyone except my co-worker for almost 2 months and now my old crush comes sauntering back, a girl that I've fantasized about getting physical with for almost a year. I probably won't get another chance and I am really frustrated about how slow it's going with my co-worker and her confusing ways :smalltongue:

Sure, and I don't think I really have to tell you as you're getting in a car with me that I don't know how to drive. I won't lie if you ask me, of course, but I think it's my decision to choose to potentially get you killed.

The thing is, it's no longer your personal life. Your decision will also affect her, when she finds out. And it's not an if, she will find out eventually. I'm telling you, right now, based on what you've said to us in these past pages, you are making a mistake by attempting to do this with your old flame. If you choose to ignore us, that's your decision, and I can't stop you. Honestly, with the way you're talking, it's sounding more and more like you don't want a serious relationship anyway, but rather someone to simply be physical with. And if that's the case, that's fine, but know that your coworker deserves to be told what's going to happen. As I said, what you do with the old flame will affect your coworker as well, and doubly so if she feels like you're supposed to be exclusive right now.

[The Anarresti]

Alright:
I've got something rather serious, messy, and quite embarrassing that I'd really like some help with. When I say "embarrassing" I mean in a "I made a several large mistakes that has harmed and could potentially harm the well-being of myself and others, when I should have known better" kind of way.
I'd really not like posting it out on this forum for anyone to see; I'm afraid it would end up making me look like a jerk. Besides, I don't want to push the limits of the posting rules.
Could someone please help? It involves a (mostly) one-way attraction with me on the receiving end. So, if anyone could please help me, I would be most obliged indeed.

[Glass Mouse]

And neither of us want anything more serious than just a little fun.

Ah. I thought you were thinking about pursuing this girl in a serious, relationship-wise fashion. Disregard my advice on when and how to meet her, then, and just listen to Vonriel.

You gotta decide between the potential longshot and the easy satisfaction. Sorry, dude, but you can't have both unless Co-worker Girl is a lot less serious about you than she lets on. You already know that she doesn't "get" non-serious fooling around, so she probably won't be very understanding.
I'm not gonna judge either way, but I WILL take the Øresund boat and smack you* if you screw around behind Co-worker Girl's back. If you really need to take that chance, take it and tell her. Lying by omission about something like that is just being a jerk.

*Yes, I know I have no idea who you actually are, I will find a way!

[ZombyWoof]

Glassy is very much one to fulfill her threats of physical violence. I have the bruises to prove it!

(and a strange phobia of newspapers...)

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Could someone please help? It involves a (mostly) one-way attraction with me on the receiving end. So, if anyone could please help me, I would be most obliged indeed.

Ouch. I've done that before. It's not fun. My PM box is open...

[term1nally s1ck]

Glass...

'I'm not going to judge, but if you do X, I'll smack you' has a very odd feel to it. Like it doesn't quite make any sense at all. :smallwink:

[Syka]

Remember, though, that Vella_Malachite isn't you. What you want and what she wants from a relationship could be entirely different things, and while Oz and her boy could be the same in every way, she may want to have a boy who is more decisive. It ultimately falls to how she feels in this, and what she is looking for in the relationship, and while you're happy with Oz and how he acts - which isn't wrong by any stretch of the imagination, since everyone in a relationship deserves to be happy with the way the other in the relationship behaves, and I envy you for having someone with whom you are so happy - it sounds like she may want someone who is different in this respect.

Already covered...



You may find, however, that you two prefer completely different norms within a relationship and thus aren't compatible.

Take mine and my sister's relationship. Oz and I pretty much spend all possible time together. We do do stuff separately, and we have our own friends, we just prefer to do it together. If given the option, we will be together. Before my sister got married, they were content to see each other maybe two or three times a week when they were both home (it was LDR during the semester). That is just completely foreign to me, as my desire to see Oz frequently is foreign to her.


It's definitely a case-by-case basis. I know people for whom there was never a sickeningly sweet lovey dovey honeymoon phase, and then there are those of us who seem to never outgrow it. Relationships are as unique as the people who participate in them.



Jonesh, you CAN not tell her. However, that would also be a bit of a douchebag move, IMO. I had a guy I was casually dating just...not tell me of kissing someone. Yeah...it ended.

Not too mention, she's pretty obviously said if you do such stuff, it makes her question you and what you guys have. It's up to YOU to decide if it's worth it.

Anecdote time: Oz isn't the most patient man, nor was he used to being shut down, but I'm the type of woman when I say I have boundary X, you can darn well bet that's my boundary and ain't nothing else happening past that. I'm stubborn like that. ;) For him, our emotional relationship was worth waiting for the physical bits to happen. He actually admired that I wouldn't compromise on something that mattered that much to me.

On the other hand, I know a couple that was almost ruined when in the beginning stages he hooked up with someone else. It was in the foggy gray area before they were truly exclusive but after it was known that hooking up with others would result in hurt. Bad situation all around, and the official relationship came very close to ending before it began.

I can guarantee, if Oz had hooked up with someone in our beginning stages because I wasn't putting out, we would certainly not be where we are today.


Once again, I am not her and Oz is not you. But I've seen far more explosions from lies of omission and still trying to catch the 'frigid' one than I have seen explosions from just not pursuing someone whom you deem incompatible physically. It seems, to me at least, that she isn't frigid so much as she needs to take her time before she's willing to get physical. Have you asked her why?

Given your apparent past (which it seems as been shared with her), that isn't really unreasonable. She probably wants to know she isn't just another notch in your bed post.

And, while it wasn't a dominant reason I held out (trust me, there were plenty of legit reasons that Oz was well aware of), knowing how he'd bounced from girl to girl for a few months made me wary. Heck, it made a mutual friend who knows us both well wary enough to warn him not to string me along.

[DeadManSleeping]

Little rant. I do mean little.

I hate my health teacher. Hate him. We have this dumb assignment to make a blog on a healthy relationship (and one that we're in). That's personal you dumb-crap. It would be OK, I suppose, if just he saw it, but we're suppose to make a presentation later this week. (And people without a ... special friend look even dumber then the kids who're dating. I happen to be in the w/o special friend camp.)

I'm seriously debating tanking this assignment entirely (something I've never done on a project).

Option 1: Talk about your relationship with yourself
Option 2: Make up a hilariously fake girlfriend in Canada. The more obvious it is that you are making it up and want people to know you're making it up, the better. Just be sure not to break character

[Zeb The Troll]

Option 1: Talk about your relationship with yourself
Option 2: Make up a hilariously fake girlfriend in Canada. The more obvious it is that you are making it up and want people to know you're making it up, the better. Just be sure not to break characterOption 3: Dress up your hand like a character from Oobi (http://www.nickjr.com/kids-videos/oobi-uma-trip.html) on nick jr. Watch your teacher squirm.

[Vonriel]

Already covered...

Woops, sorry. I had forgotten about that post, and when I saw your replies I thought you were thinking we were talking about you or something. My bad. :smallredface:

I vote for options two and three. At the same time. Make up a hilariously fake girlfriend who is a hand puppet from that show. :smallcool:

[Keld Denar]

Option 2: Make up a hilariously fake girlfriend in Canada. The more obvious it is that you are making it up and want people to know you're making it up, the better. Just be sure not to break character

Is her name Alberta? Does she live in Vancouver? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g196vURUDo)

[Coidzor]

Is her name Alberta? Does she live in Vancouver? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g196vURUDo)

Want like button so much right now.

And, yeah. What Starbuck said, Vella. As for the rest, yes, "Honeymoon periods" do naturally come to a close with time, but as has been said, sooner rather than later is better for talking things out without a routine having been settled into such that force of habit would make it even harder to break certain behavior patterns.

What Trog said pretty much holds, it was a mildly useful shorthand and the amount of time and intensity and type of feeling is going to vary from person to person, but generally there is something up with people when they first get into a relationship. You shouldn't feel bad or do anything drastic as a result of not being consciously aware of having gone through anything like that, as generally it's not necessarily the sort of thing one would be cognizant of but more something that could be observed.

[Glass Mouse]

Glass...

'I'm not going to judge, but if you do X, I'll smack you' has a very odd feel to it. Like it doesn't quite make any sense at all. :smallwink:

Ah.

"I will not judge if you do X (choosing either one), but I will judge if you do Y (choose Xb and not tell person A)"

Not very clear from my part, heh. Basically, I was just trying to say "do whatever makes you happy, but don't be a jerk about it" :smallredface:


Option 2: Make up a hilariously fake girlfriend in Canada. The more obvious it is that you are making it up and want people to know you're making it up, the better. Just be sure not to break character

YES. :smallbiggrin:

[ZombyWoof]

Isn't it interesting how possessive people get even in the very beginning of a relationship? I personally like the idea of casual dating the more I see of the world, to be honest. Hanging out with multiple people and not really committing to anyone in particular until you feel that strong pull.

[Jonesh]

Sure, and I don't think I really have to tell you as you're getting in a car with me that I don't know how to drive. I won't lie if you ask me, of course, but I think it's my decision to choose to potentially get you killed.

The thing is, it's no longer your personal life. Your decision will also affect her, when she finds out. And it's not an if, she will find out eventually. I'm telling you, right now, based on what you've said to us in these past pages, you are making a mistake by attempting to do this with your old flame. If you choose to ignore us, that's your decision, and I can't stop you. Honestly, with the way you're talking, it's sounding more and more like you don't want a serious relationship anyway, but rather someone to simply be physical with. And if that's the case, that's fine, but know that your coworker deserves to be told what's going to happen. As I said, what you do with the old flame will affect your coworker as well, and doubly so if she feels like you're supposed to be exclusive right now.


Isn't it interesting how possessive people get even in the very beginning of a relationship? I personally like the idea of casual dating the more I see of the world, to be honest. Hanging out with multiple people and not really committing to anyone in particular until you feel that strong pull.

Well, I think these posts are kind of connected. Be aware that me and my co-worker has done nothing more than heavy flirting, a few kisses on the cheeks and stuff like that and such flirting is still just flirting and while I'd rather she'd not flirt around because I really like her but I don't know if she's flirting around or not. She has said it is ok for me to flirt so it's kind of hypocritical of her to say so and then expect me to not take her seriously (even if it might be a test, it's kind of deceitful to do so).
And if she does flirt around, it'd be stupid of me to not flirt around too, also, it'd be unfair towards me.
Lastly, I do want my coworker as a real girlfriend because I really feel chemistry between us, she is sweet, caring and cute as a button while my old flame would be more like a FWB for like maybe a week or two until my co-worker has "caught" me. And that's because I'm really curious how she is in bed :smalltongue: Also, dry spell :smallredface:

In short, words are just words, not deeds and I don't believe neither of us should be possessive at this stage (we haven't even been on a date yet, haven't even shared a kiss!)


Ah. I thought you were thinking about pursuing this girl in a serious, relationship-wise fashion. Disregard my advice on when and how to meet her, then, and just listen to Vonriel.

You gotta decide between the potential longshot and the easy satisfaction. Sorry, dude, but you can't have both unless Co-worker Girl is a lot less serious about you than she lets on. You already know that she doesn't "get" non-serious fooling around, so she probably won't be very understanding.
I'm not gonna judge either way, but I WILL take the Øresund boat and smack you* if you screw around behind Co-worker Girl's back. If you really need to take that chance, take it and tell her. Lying by omission about something like that is just being a jerk.

*Yes, I know I have no idea who you actually are, I will find a way!

Yikes! :smalleek::smalltongue:
But in the vein of what I said above, if she wants us to date exclusively she just has to say so since I kind of want her that way too, but if she's gonna be inclusive it's not right for me to be exclusive in that situation. If she is, then she's just playing me. It's a bit unfair of her to try and possibly "test" me by saying I can flirt and not mean it, then expect not to take her seriously.



Jonesh, you CAN not tell her. However, that would also be a bit of a douchebag move, IMO. I had a guy I was casually dating just...not tell me of kissing someone. Yeah...it ended.

Not too mention, she's pretty obviously said if you do such stuff, it makes her question you and what you guys have. It's up to YOU to decide if it's worth it.

Anecdote time: Oz isn't the most patient man, nor was he used to being shut down, but I'm the type of woman when I say I have boundary X, you can darn well bet that's my boundary and ain't nothing else happening past that. I'm stubborn like that. ;) For him, our emotional relationship was worth waiting for the physical bits to happen. He actually admired that I wouldn't compromise on something that mattered that much to me.

On the other hand, I know a couple that was almost ruined when in the beginning stages he hooked up with someone else. It was in the foggy gray area before they were truly exclusive but after it was known that hooking up with others would result in hurt. Bad situation all around, and the official relationship came very close to ending before it began.

I can guarantee, if Oz had hooked up with someone in our beginning stages because I wasn't putting out, we would certainly not be where we are today.


Once again, I am not her and Oz is not you. But I've seen far more explosions from lies of omission and still trying to catch the 'frigid' one than I have seen explosions from just not pursuing someone whom you deem incompatible physically. It seems, to me at least, that she isn't frigid so much as she needs to take her time before she's willing to get physical. Have you asked her why?

Given your apparent past (which it seems as been shared with her), that isn't really unreasonable. She probably wants to know she isn't just another notch in your bed post.

And, while it wasn't a dominant reason I held out (trust me, there were plenty of legit reasons that Oz was well aware of), knowing how he'd bounced from girl to girl for a few months made me wary. Heck, it made a mutual friend who knows us both well wary enough to warn him not to string me along.

Well, casual dating kind of implies that it's casual. Not a big deal :smalltongue:

But yeah, if she's hesitant that's probably why, that she thinks I'm sort of a playa or something :smalltongue:
However, she says that she doesn't do stuff like that but she still has like... explicit stuff written in her name and stuff on MSN.
Could be written "for me" so to speak, because she did that one time I'm pretty sure.
Still, she seems a bit twoface-y and I'm not sure I can trust her.

EDIT: I think I'm just gonna ask her what her intentions are. Don't know how to phrase it well though :smallsigh:
Just thinking I was gonna say something like "Hey, I know you've said I could flirt around but I don't really want to do that because I like you and I'm wondering what intentions you have?"

[term1nally s1ck]

Isn't it interesting how possessive people get even in the very beginning of a relationship? I personally like the idea of casual dating the more I see of the world, to be honest. Hanging out with multiple people and not really committing to anyone in particular until you feel that strong pull.

Join usssssssssss.

Also, Jonesh. Asking her straight out is probably a good idea, and that phrasing is pretty good tbh. She has to either lie to your face, or come clean. Hope it all goes well!!

[Glass Mouse]

Isn't it interesting how possessive people get even in the very beginning of a relationship? I personally like the idea of casual dating the more I see of the world, to be honest. Hanging out with multiple people and not really committing to anyone in particular until you feel that strong pull.

Yeah, it is pretty interesting. I think for most people the "dating" phase is just one big test - trying to figure out how X would be as a genderfriend without turning it into the mess of having to break up if X is deemed non-dateable.

So, "sleeping around while dating = will sleep around while in a relationship" for a lot of people.

Never let it be said that humans were rational :smalltongue:


In short, words are just words, not deeds and I don't believe neither of us should be possessive at this stage (we haven't even been on a date yet, haven't even shared a kiss!)

Agreed. But to be fair, you aren't just talking about words here.


EDIT: I think I'm just gonna ask her what her intentions are. Don't know how to phrase it well though :smallsigh:
Just thinking I was gonna say something like "Hey, I know you've said I could flirt around but I don't really want to do that because I like you and I'm wondering what intentions you have?"

Good idea (and I think your wording is fine)

You just need to cover two points, and you're fine:
1. I like you, and I'd like to be exclusive if you want.
2. If you don't want to, I'd like to know, so I can move on.

You could end the date tomorrow with that question? That is, if it hasn't become apparant already at that point :smalltongue:

[Jonesh]

Agreed. But to be fair, you aren't just talking about words here.


I meant that there has only been words and no deeds between me and and my co-worker, sorry for the confusion!



Good idea (and I think your wording is fine)

You just need to cover two points, and you're fine:
1. I like you, and I'd like to be exclusive if you want.
2. If you don't want to, I'd like to know, so I can move on.

You could end the date tomorrow with that question? That is, if it hasn't become apparant already at that point :smalltongue:

Thanks (to you too term1nally s1ck), I'm wondering if I should ask her for her home number (she no longer has a cell, she gave it away) and say I got something to talk to her about. Or ask her about probably sounds better.
I guess it could sound like I'm calling her to "break up" or some other bad news otherwise.
Kind of better to not say stuff like that on fb-chat :smalltongue:

[Syka]

My point still stands, Jonesh. Also, she said flirt. Flirting and having sex with are two very, very different things. You really think she would be cool with you having sex with someone else when you guys have a date planned?

Is it right? Maybe not. But as mentioned, humans are not entirely rational. Your best bet- honestly- is talk to her and lay out the boundaries. If you want to be free to hook up with other women before you guys get exclusive, let her know that. But do. not. hide it.

Dry spell is a reallllly bad excuse, by the way, if you know it'll likely result in someone you care about and want to be in a relationship with being hurt. It's OK if you don't want to have to worry about that, but then don't be in a relationship with someone for whom sexual intimacy is a bigger deal for. Or, suck it up if it is worth it for you*.

As for my situation, we were casual- yes (oddly, since he professed to be in love with me at one point...yet he was the one not wanting a relationship...>>). We also had an explicitly stated policy of letting the other person know if we were getting together with someone else. He did, did not tell me and I found out through other means. Complicated by the fact he then tried to dodge my question about it by accusing someone of trying to come between us.

Trust me, don't be That Guy.

Didn't we just have this conversation a few pages back from the POV of someone on the other side, too?



*Sore point for me. I never cared if a guy didn't want to be with me because I wouldn't have sex. That's completely understandable and doesn't make one a bad person. I did care when someone cheated on me, I did care when someone kept pushing the boundaries far too much, and I did care when someone assumes you are a prude or frigid. My reasons then had to do with my education, health, and mental well-being, and later due to physical complications. Don't assume they are just holding out to be mean or whatever unless you actually know their reasons.

But basically, if you don't want to handle a dry spell...don't be with someone who has a different view of when sex is appropriate. You just have to decide if a potential relationship with this girl is worth it. And, I'll reiterate, if it ISN'T, you are NOT a bad person. It's a completely value-neutral action.

Going behind her back and lying by omission is not a value-neutral action.

[Jonesh]

My point still stands, Jonesh. Also, she said flirt. Flirting and having sex with are two very, very different things. You really think she would be cool with you having sex with someone else when you guys have a date planned?

Is it right? Maybe not. But as mentioned, humans are not entirely rational. Your best bet- honestly- is talk to her and lay out the boundaries. If you want to be free to hook up with other women before you guys get exclusive, let her know that. But do. not. hide it.

Dry spell is a reallllly bad excuse, by the way, if you know it'll likely result in someone you care about and want to be in a relationship with being hurt. It's OK if you don't want to have to worry about that, but then don't be in a relationship with someone for whom sexual intimacy is a bigger deal for. Or, suck it up if it is worth it for you*.

As for my situation, we were casual- yes (oddly, since he professed to be in love with me at one point...yet he was the one not wanting a relationship...>>). We also had an explicitly stated policy of letting the other person know if we were getting together with someone else. He did, did not tell me and I found out through other means. Complicated by the fact he then tried to dodge my question about it by accusing someone of trying to come between us.

Trust me, don't be That Guy.

Didn't we just have this conversation a few pages back from the POV of someone on the other side, too?



*Sore point for me. I never cared if a guy didn't want to be with me because I wouldn't have sex. That's completely understandable and doesn't make one a bad person. I did care when someone cheated on me, I did care when someone kept pushing the boundaries far too much, and I did care when someone assumes you are a prude or frigid. My reasons then had to do with my education, health, and mental well-being, and later due to physical complications. Don't assume they are just holding out to be mean or whatever unless you actually know their reasons.

But basically, if you don't want to handle a dry spell...don't be with someone who has a different view of when sex is appropriate. You just have to decide if a potential relationship with this girl is worth it. And, I'll reiterate, if it ISN'T, you are NOT a bad person. It's a completely value-neutral action.

Going behind her back and lying by omission is not a value-neutral action.

Well, the conversation went something like this, I said I was going to a party and she told me to party hard and flirt. I responded that I didn't really feel like flirting but she said I was single "so why not".

And yeah, I know that a dry spell is a bad excuse :smallredface:
I should probably just try and calm down a bit.
Besides, I've waited 2 months... I could probably handle another week.

But I don't think it's lying by omission, she has said I'm free to flirt because I am single whether or not she is just testing me (I think you shouldn't test someone like that btw) she has said she sees me as single and then I am free to do what singles do :smalltongue:
If she asks me about it I'm not gonna lie and if she wants to be exclusive I'm not gonna cheat on her of course!
I think I'm gonna ask her about it though, my friends are split kind of evenly in the "Not her business yet"-group and "Just ask her about it already!"-group :smallredface:

I am talking to one of my friends now about sending her a fb-mail asking her about her homenumber (which is all she has right now) and when I can call her and ask her about something.

EDIT: Also, I don't think she is frigid or prude or anything. It was just one of my friends that made a joke about it.
I think she is just taking it slow and being wary of me being a skirtchaser :smalltongue:

[Syka]

I dunno. I just think in cases like this it's probably best to err on the side of caution. I've always been of the mind that, when casually dating, it's best to let everyone involved that you ARE involved with other people. Not through letting them ask, but proactively telling them. 'Cause, if they find out another way- whether you feel like you lied by omission or not- they will probably feel betrayed.


Then again, I'm not really one made for casual dating. >> My casual thing was 9 months and I didn't date anyone else at the time.


But yeah, I'd FB her and ask for her number so you can talk, etc. As I mentioned, don't want the same situation that happened a few pages ago if you hope to actually get a relationship out of this.

[Jonesh]

I dunno. I just think in cases like this it's probably best to err on the side of caution. I've always been of the mind that, when casually dating, it's best to let everyone involved that you ARE involved with other people. Not through letting them ask, but proactively telling them. 'Cause, if they find out another way- whether you feel like you lied by omission or not- they will probably feel betrayed.


Then again, I'm not really one made for casual dating. >> My casual thing was 9 months and I didn't date anyone else at the time.


But yeah, I'd FB her and ask for her number so you can talk, etc. As I mentioned, don't want the same situation that happened a few pages ago if you hope to actually get a relationship out of this.

Well, I just sent it. And she's signed in. But now my friend is like all "wait don't send her a mail, just look up her number and call her" so I'm just sighing at her wishywashyness :smallsigh:

EDIT: So she started chatting with me, said her mother was using the phone and asked me what I wanted to talk about. I just said outright that I liked her more than just as friends and she was like ":O when did you start to feel like that?".
And I said I didn't really know (I really don't, I thought she was hot from the get go but then I also started to like her personality a lot too) but I don't really date just anyone, regardless if she had gotten that impression of me.
She said I was a really cool guy so I mentioned, that I started thinking about this because of my old crush and I wanted to see where me and my co-worker stood first.

She said she didn't know what to say and that this is something you shouldn't talk about on fb so she gave me her number.
I said it was cool if she wanted to think about it, that I was in no hurry and we could wait for our dates to see how we feel.

Well, at least it's not a no?

[Trellan]

Well, I just sent it. And she's signed in. But now my friend is like all "wait don't send her a mail, just look up her number and call her" so I'm just sighing at her wishywashyness :smallsigh:

What? No. I'm sorry, but that's awful advice. If someone hasn't given you their home number, you don't just look it up and call them; not even if you're kind of close. If somebody did that to me, I'd just be creeped out. And I'm a dude (not that I think it matters much in this situation, just saying that girls are normally more wary of stuff like that).

[Coidzor]

But seriously. 2 months and you haven't gotten her number?

[Jonesh]

What? No. I'm sorry, but that's awful advice. If someone hasn't given you their home number, you don't just look it up and call them; not even if you're kind of close. If somebody did that to me, I'd just be creeped out. And I'm a dude (not that I think it matters much in this situation, just saying that girls are normally more wary of stuff like that).

I know right, that's what I said to her too.


But seriously. 2 months and you haven't gotten her number?

I got her cell number, the cellphone that she gave away to her brother or something I think, can't recall who or if she told me. She gave it away anyway.
But now I got her homenumber too.


Also, major edit in my previous post (got ninja'd :smalltongue:)!

[Coidzor]

I got her cell number, the cellphone that she gave away to her brother or something I think, can't recall who or if she told me. She gave it away anyway.
But now I got her homenumber too.

...Are you sure you want anything to do with this girl? :smallconfused: She seems to be living in a rather odd place.

[Jonesh]

...Are you sure you want anything to do with this girl? :smallconfused: She seems to be living in a rather odd place.

Well, I remember her saying that whoever she gave it too needed a cellphone and she was gonna look into buying a new one anyway.

[ZombyWoof]

I dunno. I just think in cases like this it's probably best to err on the side of caution. I've always been of the mind that, when casually dating, it's best to let everyone involved that you ARE involved with other people. Not through letting them ask, but proactively telling them. 'Cause, if they find out another way- whether you feel like you lied by omission or not- they will probably feel betrayed.
Agreed. Honesty is the best policy, because if your genderfriend isn't ok with what you're doing and they find out, they'll find out you lied to them on top of it. If you just tell them, then they may be upset but it's something you can now work through.


Then again, I'm not really one made for casual dating. >> My casual thing was 9 months and I didn't date anyone else at the time.
There's a great House episode that addresses that point. Basically it's a monogamous man who's married to a polyamorous woman. Their deal is they are allowed to sleep around, and she thinks he's been having a lot of partners because he keeps leaving for a long time. In reality, he's leaving to go to a bar and checks into a hotel or crashes on a friend's couch because he doesn't want her to feel bad that he's not sleeping around. He only really wants to be with her, but loves her so much that he understands that she needs to sleep around, and while he's not a huge fan of the idea he'd rather deal with that one quirk than not have her at all.

TL/DR: It's ok to not want to casually date and let the person you're with casually date... just like it's ok to date someone who's not a vegetarian if you are, or just like it's ok to date someone who's into scary movies when you aren't. If it bothers you that they're seeing other people, let them know. But not really wanting to date other people at the same time isn't the same as not being ok with your genderfriend seeing other people. They're two separate things that you have to come to independent conclusions about!

(This was pointed at people who are not Syka, by the way)

[Jonesh]

Now I'm just wondering if I should call her today or wait a bit.
Goddammit.

[ZombyWoof]

Just call her. Waiting is for chumps who are unsure of themselves.

[Eadin]

Just call her, get it over with.

[Jonesh]

Ah, I messed around with my mates instead :smallredface: I'll call her tomorrow.

[Jonesh]

WELL *row upon row of censored words* :smallfurious:

this adequately describes my feelings right now.

She said it was sweet of me but she wasn't interested in me like that, all evidence to the contrary. I should have just let things lie and maybe it would have worked out. She even went back on what she said and thought our "dates" we're only coffee and stuff.
I said I could call her tonight and that was ok.
I hope I can salvage this :smallfrown:

[Keld Denar]

Screw her. She sounds too flakey to be deserving of you. You've jumped over all of her hurdles to get to the end of the race only to have her move the finish line. You can do better. Honestly, I'd give her the silent treatment. Cut her completely out of your life for ~2 weeks and see if she comes crawling back to you. If so, MAYBE give her a chance, but probably not. If not, well, it probably wouldn't have lasted very long even if you had "dated".

But really, I've had thoughts all along that this girl is half fruit-cake and half overcaffinated squirrel, I just didn't want to voice it. Screw her. No girl is worth the feelings you are having right now. You'll find another. Go have a sympathy screw with that other friend and forget about this one.

[DeadManSleeping]

Salvage? Nothing's wrecked.

If she said "no" to a date, then you've got to stop pursuing her, for your own mental and social health. You've got other options, right? Now you're free to have fun. Hopefully you can stand having an attractive friend who seems far too flirty for her own good.

[Glass Mouse]

Sorry to hear that, Jonesh :smallfrown:

But yeah, sounds like it's time to back off. If she's sincere, there's no reason to pursue it. And if it's yet another game, she ain't worth it - you've jumped through enough hoops already.

"Far too flirty for her own good" is a very good descriptor. Blergh. Stupid girl.


And this is not to pour salt in the wound, but I'm taking this as further proof that pursuing any kind of RL relationship primarily through texting is... risky at best.

[blackfox]

Blargle blarg parents.
Can has PM pl0x?

[Castaras]

Blargle blarg parents.
Can has PM pl0x?

PM Box is open. :smallsmile:

[Syka]

Agreed, forget her. Perhaps she liked the attention, but still...mind games are an automatic disqualifier in my eyes.

Blackfox, my PM box is always open (now...lol).

[term1nally s1ck]

No offence, Jonesh, but I think you put her under a lot of pressure, and she flaked. I'm not defending her, she shouldn't have flaked, but you managed to put her under a huge amount of pressure and made the situation far too serious.

She did believe you just fool around, and don't date seriously. I suspect this was interesting, and she wanted to basically try it and see if she could change your mind from there.

From her point of view, after some flirting and vague ideas of dating, you abandon your lifestyle and start pushing for a serious exclusive relationship with just her before you two have even gone on a couple of dates. That's a freaking HUGE leap, and very very intimidating. Hell, even without the reputation, if someone suddenly started asking me what my intentions were with her before we'd even dated, I'd back the hell off. As fast as I could.

You pushed. She was interested in you partially BECAUSE you weren't the type of guy who gets serious so easily, as so many men do (and so many women complain bitterly about.), and you got serious and wanted to know if you were going anywhere before your first date.

Again, she was wrong to flake out and say she didn't mean to date you properly at all, she chickened out of coming clean.

On the other hand, I believe you have an interesting other woman you want 'closure' with? :smalltongue: Go enjoy yourself.


EDIT: PM box always open for any advice you need. I know the parents problem intimately, so feel free.

[DeadManSleeping]

Blargle blarg parents.
Can has PM pl0x?

As always, my unique perspective and confidentiality are open to all.

[ZombyWoof]

Blargle blarg parents.
Can has PM pl0x?
Probably late but I'm open as well, though I won't be able to get back to you until later.


Agreed, forget her. Perhaps she liked the attention, but still...mind games are an automatic disqualifier in my eyes.

+1

This is so true, as soon as someone starts playing that kind of game with you it's a huge sign that thar be trouble in them waters, matey! What are you going to do when you're IN a relationship and she pulls the "I'm mad but not going to tell you why" card? Yeah bleep that bleep, every man deserves a woman who's going to be upfront with him and honest.
rearrange/substitute genders as necessary please.

[Syka]

This is so true, as soon as someone starts playing that kind of game with you it's a huge sign that thar be trouble in them waters, matey! What are you going to do when you're IN a relationship and she pulls the "I'm mad but not going to tell you why" card? Yeah bleep that bleep, every man deserves a woman who's going to be upfront with him and honest.
rearrange/substitute genders as necessary please.

One thing to ascertain about that card...me (and a few other women) will sometimes not talk about why we are angry. Usually, it's because we know we are being irrational/hormonal/whatever and the guy didn't actually do anything to be angry over, and we're just unreasonably emotional about it, and it'll pass before too long. We intellectually know this, but our mind will have none of it and proceeds to be angry/weepy. And we feel horrible for that, which makes us angrier (at ourselves) and/or weepier. Vicious, vicious cycle. ><

If it is frequent and/or not tied to hormonal issues, though...yeah...get that crap smoothed out so they don't stonewall you.

[ZombyWoof]

Will you at least be honest as to why you're angry? Like even saying "I'm just... angry right now" is ok. I'm talking about when someone walks up to you and says, "I'm mad at you and I'm not going to tell you why!" *harumph* like an 8 year old.

EDIT: Besides sounds like the latter part of that can be fixed or at least partially mitigated by a liberal dosing of hugs and reassurances. And I like hugs!

[Syka]

Yeah, I warn him. :) It took a while, though, for him (and other SO's) to figure out they can't actually fix it. It's hard to get across that they didn't actually do anything wrong and all they can do is not try to fix it.

One of my friends is going through this right now, actually. The poor guy still hasn't learned to just give her a hug and not talk, lol.

[polity4life]

Yeah, I warn him. :) It took a while, though, for him (and other SO's) to figure out they can't actually fix it. It's hard to get across that they didn't actually do anything wrong and all they can do is not try to fix it.

One of my friends is going through this right now, actually. The poor guy still hasn't learned to just give her a hug and not talk, lol.

Very true words in bold there.

The female paradox is doubly worse for persistent, busy-body guys who try to seek a rational explanation to female quirkiness and try to solve it. Here's a tip for all men out there: There's nothing to solve. The shut up, passive listening technique is your floatation device while the lady hurricane rolls in. Trying to "fix" a perceived "issue" only deepens the angst in the situation and can make you come off as arrogant and clueless, which just so happen to be the traits I express liberally.

[Jonesh]

Gah, we talked some more on the phone.
She pulled the "I talk to all my friends like that"-card :smallannoyed:
Damn, I should have just let it slide until our dates. We're supposed to meet and talk now. I'm gonna try to get her to open up, it feels like there's something I missed, miscommunicated or made a misstake (beside the obvious one of telling her that I was interested, you think you find a nice person and you could lower your guard a little and... BAM! Bleep you :smallsigh:) At least I can't make things worse :smallfrown:
I guess she flaked, but I thought it was an open-and-shut-case.
Again, if there's such a thing as Fate, it seems it has a bone to pick with me :smallfrown:

And yeah, my old crush? I'm totally clueless now as to if she actually made a move, because apparently I SUCK at reading signals ("oh no, I never thought of you that way! It's normal for me to ask people if they're single and constantly compliment them, say that I miss them and that we make a great team, totes normally", right :smallannoyed:).
Knowing my luck (and the rumour mill), I have no chances there either.
Dammit, why do I even try :smallsigh:

[Coidzor]

...Are you sure you want anything to do with this girl? :smallconfused: She seems to be living in a rather odd place.

Yeah, I'm going to just stand by my earlier sentiment as to her being weird.

[ZombyWoof]

Yeah, I warn him. :) It took a while, though, for him (and other SO's) to figure out they can't actually fix it. It's hard to get across that they didn't actually do anything wrong and all they can do is not try to fix it.

One of my friends is going through this right now, actually. The poor guy still hasn't learned to just give her a hug and not talk, lol.
Just as a point of fact, GUYS are often this way too (even if we don't want to admit it!) There are times when we are just unusually angry and start losing it, and it's because we're angry that we're angry at you and it's spiraling in a huge circle and for the love of god will you just hug me so I know you still love me even though I'm acting like a jerk?

I'm sure Syka understands this but I want you other ladies to realize this too :smallwink:

I find the best words in these cases are "It's fine, I understand. I still really, really care about you."

@JONESH:

STOP SECOND GUESSING. GO ASK HER :smallsigh: And ignore the first girl she was playing with you. Players aren't worth your time. (Ladies: this is true for you as well)

[Trellan]

Just as a point of fact, GUYS are often this way too (even if we don't want to admit it!) There are times when we are just unusually angry and start losing it, and it's because we're angry that we're angry at you and it's spiraling in a huge circle and for the love of god will you just hug me so I know you still love me even though I'm acting like a jerk?

I'm sure Syka understands this but I want you other ladies to realize this too.

100% seconded. I recently got into a bit of a tiff with my girlfriend because I found myself in one of those moods. It can be made even worse for guys, too, because we're not supposed to "act all PMSy" (as one of my friends once put it). In my case this usually manifests as getting even more upset at myself and, thus, worsening my mood. :smallfrown:

[ZombyWoof]

Males, at least your average normal healthy males, go through hormonal cycles just like the ladies do. Ours aren't accompanied by bleeding and our monthly cycle is much less... pronounced... but once you recognize it it's relatively easy to figure out when you're in those monthly blahs versus those days of the month where you feel like you can just bloody do ANYTHING.

That daily cycle is crazily pronounced though. At least, relatively speaking :smallwink:

[LordOMud]

Hey, guys, I have a problem but it is a bit personal and I don't want to just post it for everyone to see, but if someone thinks they might be able to help, you could send me a PM. Thanks so much in advance

[Coidzor]

I find defaulting to lust when I'm inappropriately angry at my lover is generally a solution to being angry at least.

[DeadManSleeping]

Males, at least your average normal healthy males, go through hormonal cycles just like the ladies do. Ours aren't accompanied by bleeding and our monthly cycle is much less... pronounced... but once you recognize it it's relatively easy to figure out when you're in those monthly blahs versus those days of the month where you feel like you can just bloody do ANYTHING.

That daily cycle is crazily pronounced though. At least, relatively speaking :smallwink:

Strewth. Of course, it's also not too terribly predictable or regular. If I could time my crazy-sad periods by the calendar, I think my quality of life would improve. Not saying the ladies have it off better, but at least there's one positive, eh?

[Coidzor]

Strewth. Of course, it's also not too terribly predictable or regular. If I could time my crazy-sad periods by the calendar, I think my quality of life would improve. Not saying the ladies have it off better, but at least there's one positive, eh?

Least it's not, y'know, clinical depression.

[Force]

Meh. =/ I guess that was ok for a first date... I kept the conversation going, made her laugh, etc... but there wasn't a particular feeling of us "clicking", and while she was quite sweet, she didn't seem to be putting much into the conversation-- I had to encourage her to talk about herself, and make an effort not to dominate the conversation.

-palmsup- I guess we'll see how we interact when I see her next.

[Syka]

Oz totally gets PMS. We actually joke about it, but it does.


Annnnnd...oddly, kinda like how women's menstrual cycles will synch up if they live together/are around each other a lot...it seems to coincide now. :\ Not always, but we seem to get cranky at approximately the same time. Which sucks, lol. At least if one of us isn't cranky, it'll be fine. If we're both cranky, it's just blah until we realize it.


Also, as always, PM box open.

[ZombyWoof]

Apparently not miss ignore-my-pm :smallfrown:

[iDM]

Ok, so I have a problem that I was hoping you guys could help me with. My girlfriend is quite possibly the perfect girl-- smart, funny, pretty, she understands me-- and she is VERY affectionate, in her way. My problem is that she's not just affectionate toward me. Specifically, she has developed a strong friendship with my best friend. I trust her enough to let her do what she wants, and if she wants to be friends with him, that's fine. Thing is, I don't feel like I can trust him with her. He claims that he's "not trying to steal her", but then he turns around and has his little discussions with her, trying to phase me out and grab her attention the whole time. He's also completely changed his likes and dislikes (he's suddenly "totally into" anime, like her, where he's never showed any interest in it before, for example). He's also tried to get me to agree that "if she dumps you, she's fair game". That doesn't sound like someone who's not trying to get my girlfriend. I can't talk to anyone about this, either, because either they say I'm being paranoid and that my friend doesn't have a chance with her, or they get angry and say that I'm being "overprotective" of her. I think that I have a right to worry, because I love her, and with what I know of both of them, they'd be horrible as anything but friends. I can't convince anyone of this, either, because they don't know them as well as I do. So this might be a long post, but what I'm asking is: Am I really being too paraniod? Should I worry about his efforts to hoard her attention?!? I can't even think about anything else anymore, and the fact that I'm so worried is making everything worse. I don't know if I can stand to lose her.

[Syka]

Haven't had much of a chance to read it. :P I was on right before writing up a short paper. Now I just turned it in and Oz is glaring at me for cuddles before he has to pass out tonight...>>


I promise, I'll answer with care when I get home this evening. :) At latest tomorrow afternoon (my mom is threatening a morning movie...>< tiiiired.)

[SDF]

I'm a little confused as to what you are asking. Is he trying to steal her? Well, in the limited scope you described it absolutely sounds like it to me. Communication is key, if you really have such a strong connection with her talk it out with her. Let her know what you've been thinking. Be tactful, but open and honest. Brooding about it will only hurt the relationship.

[Force]

This should be in the Relationship Woes & Advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193776) thread.

[ZombyWoof]

I'm just teasing.

[polity4life]

Intimate relationships should never be this complex. I have a feeling that your young, or at least younger than me. I'm nearing 30, just to provide some context and I'll give you this: If I somehow ended up in your situation, I would discuss their growing friendship with each individually. I don't have the time nor the patience for drama and you shouldn't either. Ask that your friend and your girlfriend play with their hands face-up and talk it over. If you're not happy with the outcomes of any or either discussion, then respond.

I say respond because a response is intrisically different than a reaction. A response is measured, rational while a reaction is immediate, lacking in perspective. Intimate relationships, for a long while, are transient. Friendships, real friendships, are hard to replace. Talk to these two, assess your relationship, your friendship. Make sure what you decide is something to which you are willing to commit.

[averagejoe]

This should be in the Relationship Woes & Advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193776) thread.

The Mod They Call Me: It's true. Threads merged.

[Syka]

First, I'm always super confused when threads get merged. oO


Advice, what they said. Communication is key. Perhaps your friend IS trying to lure her away, but it doesn't mean that your girlfriend is receptive or even realizes it. But either way, you should have a talk with both parties, since you are close to both. I'd say the one to be most considered is that with your girlfriend. If your friends comes up negative well...ya. He's not much of a friend. But even if he IS trying to lure, your girlfriends reaction is the really important part. And if you get the feeling you aren't getting the whole story...don't let the conversation end, or at least let her know you aren't comfortable with how their friendship has progressed. Don't say that they can't see each other or whatever, but I don't think it would be out of line to request (key word: request) boundaries.


Also, update. Friend who is married/separated from Other Friend, she's back on Facebook. I think she blocked everyone for a while, 'cause someone else made a comment about her return. Happy Syka!

[ZombyWoof]

I can't imagine what kind of prick would try to lure his friend's gf away.

[Syka]

You'd be surprised.

We're pretty sure The Girl befriended me to look good and get closer to Oz.

Another girl had her boyfriend's friend sit next to him at a movie stroking his arm, and basically rubbing all over him.

Granted not the person in questions friend, but blatant enough that it's up there on the scale of "wtf? people actually do that?"

[DeadManSleeping]

I can't imagine what kind of prick would try to lure his friend's gf away.

Welcome to humanity. Ain't it lovely?

On an off-topic happy note: It's really fun to have cute friends who will do sexy things for you. I highly recommend it. :smallbiggrin:

[Erloas]

One thing to keep in mind is that your GF has no idea what your friend was like before. She will not know if he has been changing what he likes or how he acts to try and attract her.

As for your friends changes... well it is somewhat natural to find things more interesting when you know attractive people of the opposite sex find them interesting. It is possible that your friend might be thinking more along the lines of "this is a good girl, if I can find out more about her I stand a better chance of finding myself a girl like her." I know I've had similar thoughts about female friends that, for various reasons, I would never go out with.

Of course it sounds like he is trying to steal her, but since we know you have that bias in your original post its hard to say how much is true and how much is you reading into it. But as others said, the best thing to do is talk to both parties involved.

[Gaelbert]

I can't imagine what kind of prick would try to lure his friend's gf away.

There are way, way too many of them.

[Sarco_Phage]

I can't imagine what kind of prick would try to lure his friend's gf away.

I can!

It's not a pleasant thought.

[drewski~]

Welp, I'm off to Prom.

[Adumbration]

Welp, I'm off to Prom.

Go get 'em, tiger.

[arguskos]

Go get 'em, tiger.
What he said. :smalltongue:

I have a minor woe. It's... not really anything major. Anyone got a PM box?

[ZombyWoof]

PM away Mr. Guskos!

[Jibar]

I don't think I have bad luck with women anymore.
I think it's fate.

[Serpentine]

Whaaaaat? But you're, like, teh hawtzorz.

[Jibar]

Apparently being great isn't enough, who knew.

[term1nally s1ck]

Out of the 7 billion people in this world, how many have decided you're not for them?

You've barely started looking, and you intend to just give up? Better to be alone and vaguely unhappy forever than to try again and fail, right?

Stop. Take a step back from the very specific situation you're in. You are nowhere near the first one in this situation. They solved it somehow, and if you just sit back and look at it from a general perspective, you know how you can move on, too.

[Serpentine]

Clearly she is one of the bakedgood-hating heathens, and must be purged.

edit: But in all seriousness, it sucks *hugs* I promise it'll get better.

[absolmorph]

I don't think I have bad luck with women anymore.
I think it's fate.
-hug-
Sometimes things go completely different from what you expect. Only time will tell.

Also, feeling kinda happy. Spoilered for people scrolling through.

E (the guy who caused some problems in my relationship with Annie, my last girlfriend, and is now dating her) sent me a message on Facebook apologizing for essentially the whole thing. Flirting with her while she was with me, encouraging her to dump me and date him, etc. He said he had no right to do what he did.
I accepted his apology, and we started chatting. I've been paying attention to him via his interactions with my friends, and he's actually a good guy. He just made a mistake and he genuinely feels bad about it.
And, through our talking, I discovered that he's a fellow Nerdfighter and Pokemon geek, and I found (by looking on his profile) that he likes Ender's Game, Dr. Horrible, How I Met Your Mother, The Spoony Experiment and basically a whole bunch of great stuff that not all of my friends even know about, let alone like.
Also, he wrote lemon fics when he was 11 and they're kind of hilarious.

And, on top of him being a good person in general, Annie is apparently repeating the whole mess that screwed up our relationship and has been flirting with a different guy who she found out likes her (but said that she should stay with E). He didn't tell me this, but a mutual friend mentioned it and that it made him realize that he had really been a jerk to me by encouraging that.
Not to mention she (again, what a mutual friend told me he told her) constantly gets pissy at him for having so many female friends. While flirting with another guy.
Just like she would get pissy at me for having a vague "she's cute and I'd date her if the opportunity popped up but don't want to pursue her" crush on a girl while talking about how she's married to Jack Sparrow (or was it Johnny Depp? I dunno) and flirting with E. Publicly flirting with him, might I add. I'm relatively certain that I avoided ire for having female friends because I very, very rarely talk to my close friends where there are more than a handful of people who will know what we say.
The mutual friend said that she's a ****.
In summary: my ex is stupid and the guy who accelerated the deterioration of our relationship is actually a nice guy. Even if he got shaving cream on my shirt and made me spill Mountain Dew.
Also, I seem to forgive people for way more than other people will. Crowning example being my first girlfriend. She, in order, cheated on me, dumped me and hasn't given me back my Age of Mythology game discs (IT'S BEEN TWO YEARS!). She's one of the people who I trust to not take advantage of me when I'm particularly vulnerable and opening up to them.

[Dallas-Dakota]

So apparently my last ex ships me with one of my best friends.

I am unsure of what to think of that.

[absolmorph]

So apparently my last ex ships me with one of my best friends.

I am unsure of what to think of that.
My reaction to ships is to feed them.

[ZombyWoof]

My reaction to ships is to board them and YAARRRRR! AVAST MAYTEYS! GIVE ME YAR PLOONDER AND I SHALL BE KIND TO YE!

[Blisstake]

and hasn't given me back my Age of Mythology game discs.

Well, now that's just unacceptable. You must be a saint or something to forgive that :smallsmile:

Anyway, haven't been here before, but I have a relevant (I hope) question. I find myself in the uncomfortable position of giving relationship advice. There's a friend of mine (let's call him Max) who wants my advice on a personal matter, and he said he didn't feel comfortable discussing his problem with anyone else, so I can't really tell him to ask someone more qualified.

ANYWAY, here's the deal. Max has a boyfriend (let's name him... um, Frank) that has currently dumped him 3 times. I'm not positive on the details, but apparently Frank changed his mind all 3 times within a week of dumping him, realizing that it was too hard for him to get through life without Max. Max tells me that while he does love Frank, he doesn't think the relationship will ever be able to go anywhere after these incidents, and is starting to suspect Frank is desperate rather than actually attached to Max. He asked me whether he should finish his relationship once and for all, or see if he should give Max a final chance so they can work something out.

The problem is, I have no idea how to respond. I've only been in one relationship (which I'm still in), and have never been in a situation like the one Frank is in, or even been through a break-up before. He pressed me for an answer, so I told Max he should probably break up with Frank, but I have no idea if that was the right response. Max said he'll think about it, so I still have time to convince him toward either course of action... I was wondering if anyone here could give their opinion on this whole mess. I just wish Max had someone more experienced to ask advice to. :smallfrown:

(I think this belongs here rather than the LGBTA thread, right?)

[ZombyWoof]

Yes it belongs here. Here in the RWA we don't classify relationships according to sexuality or even if sex is involved, we consider relationships, well, the dictionary definition: two or more people relating!

Anyways, you were correct. He needs to cut off Frank and move on. So good job!

EDIT:

Dear roomate,

I understand that you and this new girl are just getting together. But you have spent the last 10 days straight together. No wait, three weeks. She has been over here every single day for that time for most of the day. I have been very gracious and LET YOU HAVE THE ROOM because she's "uncomfortable" sleeping in the same room as I am. Now quit your whispering about how you wish I'd let you have the room even though I don't have work tomorrow. My back hurts from sleeping on the couch all week.

ALSO why the HELL can't she stay at HER place? You could even go with her! Her parents obviously don't mind because they're just letting her spend weeks at a time without contact.

TL/DR: you are madly infatuated (read: horribly desperate for some action) with her and she's horribly infatuated (read: madly desperate for some action) with you. That's great and imma let you finish but my back hurts like hell and I didn't buy that bed/mattress so you two could stare at it while she insomniacs all over your bed.

EDIT the Second: That was, if I may say so, a seamless use of meme.

[absolmorph]

After your last post, ZombyWoof, I thought you were a pirate, not a ninja!
So, yeah, he basically said what I would have.

[Serpentine]

Either way, really. He would be perfectly justified in ending it completely right now, or if he wants he can give it one last chance. What does he want, really?
I'm leaning towards "end it now", but if he allows one more chance then he can do what my dad did when his then-girlfriend kept threatening to break up with him:
Her: "Maybe we should just end it!"
Him: "Okay."

[Eadin]

:smallsigh: anyone got a PM box open for me?

[Trog]

I don't think I have bad luck with women anymore.
I think it's fate.
=/

*slides a beer to*

Side note: Weren't the Fates women too? This... would explain a lot. >>

So apparently my last ex ships me with one of my best friends.

I am unsure of what to think of that.

My reaction to ships is to board them and YAARRRRR! AVAST MAYTEYS! GIVE ME YAR PLOONDER AND I SHALL BE KIND TO YE!
This.

*helps DD with the ship raiding and then steers the ship's prow toward the land of the nubile nymphos, full sail*

http://home.centurytel.net/jeffsjunk/avatars/TrogMate.gif

@v Good point. *rechecks map* P=

[Serpentine]

Don't get confused and end up in Lesbos.
Although Sappho seems like a cool lady...

[DeadManSleeping]

:smallsigh: anyone got a PM box open for me?

I hope I'm in time to say yes to this?

[Eadin]

@^^ Pm'd you

[term1nally s1ck]

PM box always available, but I will be completely honest with you, even if it's not what you want to hear.

[Dvil]

Fairly certain I'm not a virgin any more. So whoo, I guess! :smallredface:

[Serpentine]

...fairly certain? :smallconfused:

I was gonna ask a supposedly clarifying question, but then realised it'd land us in a Chasing Amy-style argument...

edit: On this topic, open question: How old were you when you gained your non-virginity (or possibly, if you haven't yet, how old are you), and what do you think is about the average age for it? No cheating and looking up the stats for it.

18 for me, and I reckon around 16.

[Dvil]

...fairly certain? :smallconfused:

I was gonna ask a supposedly clarifying question, but then realised it'd land us in a Chasing Amy-style argument...

Yeah, we got interrupted so I guess it depends whether you think it still counts.

I'm 17, to answer your other question.

[Blisstake]

Thanks everyone. Max broke up with him today, and apparently Frank was heartbroken, but Max is "99% sure it was the right thing to do."

As for Serpentine's question, I'm 19, still a virgin, but my boyfriend and I have a specific date in mind to, uh, remedy that (which is before my next birthday).

I figure the world-average is 15 or so.

[Force]

I figure First World average is around 15-16. Me, I'm still a virgin at 20... though that's due as much to my beliefs as it is to my single-hood.

[arguskos]

edit: On this topic, open question: How old were you when you gained your non-virginity (or possibly, if you haven't yet, how old are you), and what do you think is about the average age for it? No cheating and looking up the stats for it.
17 here, and the world average is probably 14-15.

[Eadin]

16, and world average around 15
@Dvil
If your thingy has been in her thingy then you're no longer a virgin.

[Coidzor]

edit: On this topic, open question: How old were you when you gained your non-virginity (or possibly, if you haven't yet, how old are you), and what do you think is about the average age for it? No cheating and looking up the stats for it.

15 myself. I'd imagine 13-14, but I'm probably not weighting certain cultures properly.

Why are you asking anyway, aside from gathering personal info you could use to eat our souls?


Either way, really. He would be perfectly justified in ending it completely right now, or if he wants he can give it one last chance. What does he want, really?
I'm leaning towards "end it now", but if he allows one more chance then he can do what my dad did when his then-girlfriend kept threatening to break up with him:
Her: "Maybe we should just end it!"
Him: "Okay."

:smallfrown: I'm sorry to hear that. I was hoping you two would work things out after that fight.

[Dvil]

@Dvil
If your thingy has been in her thingy then you're no longer a virgin.

Yeah that's how we view it, but I have no doubt there are people who disagree.

[Coidzor]

Yeah that's how we view it, but I have no doubt there are people who disagree.

Then why were you acting all uncertain? And why do they matter? Especially when they're wrong except in those cases where it's just as a result of increasing degrees of specificity such that the other ways are counted in one way or another.