Relationship Woes and Advice 18: Finally Legal in Hollywood

[arguskos]

Yeah that's how we view it, but I have no doubt there are people who disagree.
Congrats, you had a good time. Not sure what else matters. :smallconfused:

Now, go make time to repeat the incident, but sans interruptions. Call it "confirmation". :smalltongue:

[Dvil]

Good point Coidzor. I guess I just felt it would be prudent to at least allow myself a little uncertainty, in case it turned out that my beliefs were wildly separate from popular opinion. Seems daft now :smalltongue:

Incidentally, I'm not sure why but I thought I'd feel different. But no, no change. I guess that means I was ready? I dunno, doesn't really matter I suppose.

[ZombyWoof]

:smallsigh: anyone got a PM box open for me?

What's up?

EDIT: 18, and I'm sure the world average is depressingly low thanks to certain countries with some very unusual ideas regarding sex with 9 year olds. I would guess the average in my country is around 18.

[arguskos]

Good point Coidzor. I guess I just felt it would be prudent to at least allow myself a little uncertainty, in case it turned out that my beliefs were wildly separate from popular opinion. Seems daft now :smalltongue:

Incidentally, I'm not sure why but I thought I'd feel different. But no, no change. I guess that means I was ready? I dunno, doesn't really matter I suppose.
Much like turning 18 and turning 21, it doesn't really matter. You're still who you were are the start of the day, no matter the events of the day (unless of course, you're DEAD at the end of the day and weren't dead that morning).

Just a state of being man. Roll with it, and enjoy it for what it is. :smallcool:

[Dvil]

Cheers Coidzor and Arguskos. I really ought to learn to stop worrying so much about other people's opinions

[arguskos]

Cheers Coidzor and Arguskos. I really ought to learn to stop worrying so much about other people's opinions
Damn right man. Just be all "meh, other people do for them, and I do for me". That's the solution to life, brother. :smallcool:

[Coidzor]

Incidentally, I'm not sure why but I thought I'd feel different. But no, no change. I guess that means I was ready? I dunno, doesn't really matter I suppose.

Means it wasn't traumatically bad at least. :smallbiggrin: Hoo boy that was an interesting few months.

[Dvil]

Damn right man. Just be all "meh, other people do for them, and I do for me". That's the solution to life, brother. :smallcool:

Yeah. I'be already got the rational part of my brain doing that, now just need to work on the rest :smallwink:

[ZombyWoof]

Incidentally, I'm not sure why but I thought I'd feel different. But no, no change. I guess that means I was ready? I dunno, doesn't really matter I suppose.
This may sound horrible, but you probably *have* changed. You don't really feel different in my experience, but I can tell you for sure that you can talk to someone for 30 minutes about love, sex, and relationships and tell in 15 minutes easy if they're a virgin just by how they respond.

Not that it's a bad thing! There's just a different perspective people have on relationships (and in particular, sex) if they've done the deed in most cases. All of my friends, for example, knew that we'd had sex without us telling anyone. It was just a sort of, "You did it, didn't you?" question from most of them. I still have no idea how they knew...

[Dvil]

This may sound horrible, but you probably *have* changed. You don't really feel different in my experience, but I can tell you for sure that you can talk to someone for 30 minutes about love, sex, and relationships and tell in 15 minutes easy if they're a virgin just by how they respond.

Not that it's a bad thing! There's just a different perspective people have on relationships (and in particular, sex) if they've done the deed in most cases. All of my friends, for example, knew that we'd had sex without us telling anyone. It was just a sort of, "You did it, didn't you?" question from most of them. I still have no idea how they knew...

Ah. Since she doesn't want my friends knowing (and considering how tight-lipped they are(n't), I don't blame her), that's probably not the best news I could have received :smallsigh:

[LaZodiac]

Man, talk about lucky Dvil. Good job *high fives*

[ZombyWoof]

Ah. Since she doesn't want my friends knowing (and considering how tight-lipped they are(n't), I don't blame her), that's probably not the best news I could have received :smallsigh:
Oh seriously? Unless her parents are going to blow up (and if she's 18+ even that...) there's not going to be much "stigma" to her having had sex. It's not the 1930's anymore :smallwink:

[Force]

Oh seriously? Unless her parents are going to blow up (and if she's 18+ even that...) there's not going to be much "stigma" to her having had sex. It's not the 1930's anymore :smallwink:

Certain subcultures in the US to this day attach a stigma to being sexually active premaritaly. Perhaps she belongs to one of them, or has friends who do.

[ZombyWoof]

I grew up in one of those.

Not as bad as one might think.

EDIT: and people who grow up that afraid and averse to sex won't notice anyways.

[Dvil]

Oh seriously? Unless her parents are going to blow up (and if she's 18+ even that...) there's not going to be much "stigma" to her having had sex. It's not the 1930's anymore :smallwink:


Certain subcultures in the US to this day attach a stigma to being sexually active premaritaly. Perhaps she belongs to one of them, or has friends who do.

Nope, not US. It's just the fact that my friends are all pretty immature and embarrassing at the best of times, plus some other things which I'm going to keep quiet about even anonymously. She's fully justified in wanting it kept quiet though, at least in my opinion.



Man, talk about lucky Dvil. Good job *high fives*

*Hi-fives back* Thanks, LaZodiac :smallsmile:

[Adumbration]

edit: On this topic, open question: How old were you when you gained your non-virginity (or possibly, if you haven't yet, how old are you), and what do you think is about the average age for it? No cheating and looking up the stats for it.

18 for me, and I reckon around 16.

20, but I'm not sure if it counts, on the count of... Well, let's just say that we had stayed up the night with plenty of alcohol, and I had performance issues, shall we? Not to mention that I had no idea how hard it would be, logistically speaking... in a girl's bathroom, nonetheless.

Wasn't my idea and really not my ideal choice of place and time, but I went with the flow and don't regret it.

I could talk more about it but I'm afraid it would cross the line on explicity. Probably could use some tips and hints for future reference, though.

[Tiger Duck]

.How old were you when you gained your non-virginity (or possibly, if you haven't yet, how old are you), and what do you think is about the average age for it? No cheating and looking up the stats for it.

24 and I guess around 16 or so. And I very much regret it now. It was embarrassing and not that great, and I got dumped before we tried again.:smallfrown:

[ZombyWoof]

Nope, not US. It's just the fact that my friends are all pretty immature and embarrassing at the best of times, plus some other things which I'm going to keep quiet about even anonymously. She's fully justified in wanting it kept quiet though, at least in my opinion.

I'm not trying to say she's not, but I am trying to say that if someone finding out is the worst thing ever for her then...

@Capn' Happy: I recommend editing that out post-haste. I mean jesus REALLY DUDE?

[blackfox]

On this topic, open question: How old were you when you gained your non-virginity (or possibly, if you haven't yet, how old are you), and what do you think is about the average age for it? No cheating and looking up the stats for it.19 for me, and I'd guess around 16.
Wiki says 17.

[DeadManSleeping]

Losing your virginity is for losers :smalltongue:
Because, you know, if you lose something, you're a - nevermind.

I just keep mine locked up in a box in my closet. Never have to worry about misplacing it.

In all seriousness, through no intention of my own, at 21, I've still got mine. I don't claim to be all-knowing, but...there are no signs of that ever changing. So, yeah, whatever the average is, I suppose I'm just exceptional. :smallwink:
I know the proper phrasing is "an exception". I like to dull the pain of having no love life with humor. Which is, I suppose, why I never, ever stop making jokes.

[Serpentine]

15 myself. I'd imagine 13-14, but I'm probably not weighting certain cultures properly.

Why are you asking anyway, aside from gathering personal info you could use to eat our souls?I saw a study some time ago (can't remember the exact numbers, though, so I'm not cheating much :smalltongue:) that basically said that pretty much everyone thinks they were old when they first had sex, that everyone's having sex except them sorta thing, and overall that the age-of-first-time is significantly higher than they think.
If blackfox is right (is that international or for a particular place?), then that holds true here.

:smallfrown: I'm sorry to hear that. I was hoping you two would work things out after that fight.Eh? :smallconfused: The first part was giving advice. The second part was an exchange between my father and his ex. My Boy and I are still together - and nearly back to normal, although he hasn't initiated a kiss or a hug since we had The Talk :smallsigh:
Incidentally, I'm not sure why but I thought I'd feel different. But no, no change. I guess that means I was ready? I dunno, doesn't really matter I suppose.As you might've picked up from the wording of my question, I dislike the concept of "losing" one's virginity. One doesn't lose anything by having sex any more than a canvas loses anything by being painted on. You gain an experience. That's it.
24 and I guess around 16 or so. And I very much regret it now.That's a shame :smallfrown: You'll just have to overwhelm it with positive experiences! :smallwink:

After I had the Big Break-up with my ex, a very religious friend of mine asked me, "do you regret having sex with him, now that you know he's a jerk?" My response was (something like, it was a while ago) this:
1. He isn't a jerk.
2. No, absolutely not. When we did it I was in love with him, and he with me. It was fun and wonderful, whatever happened afterwards can't detract from that. And now I'm a bit more experienced, and know sex is no big deal.

[DeadManSleeping]

As you might've picked up from the wording of my question, I dislike the concept of "losing" one's virginity. One doesn't lose anything by having sex any more than a canvas loses anything by being painted on.

*Walks up to microphone*

Ahem.

I'd like to paint on HER canvas. Hurr hurr hurr.

*leaves stage before too much rotten vegetation is hurled*

[Coidzor]

Eh? :smallconfused: The first part was giving advice. The second part was an exchange between my father and his ex. My Boy and I are still together - and nearly back to normal, although he hasn't initiated a kiss or a hug since we had The Talk :smallsigh:

Phew. I was really worried. :smallredface:

[RabbitHoleLost]

16.

And here's some RWA drama.
I don't get jealous often. I don't like being jealous- I was the target of it in lots of my early, previous relationships years ago, and it kinda really messed with me.
I feel like, if there's jealousy, there's something wrong. Either the other person doesn't deserve trust, or the person experiencing the jealousy has some other issues. And, hell, if someone's gonna cheat, they're gonna cheat, and you're better off without them, right then and there.

However, I have not been able to talk myself out of this current situation. My current boyfriend (who is the first boyfriend of my own age I've had in about two years, and the first local one in longer than that) is really good friends with his ex. And ex that was his girlfriend for all of a week.
However, current boyfriend didn't get the whole "I don't want to know about your exes" bit I told him once, and did infact delve into the details of this ex. He'd had a huge crush on her forever, they dated for a week, after which ex was like "Nah, sorry, just not feeling it", and boyfriend was pretty hung up about it for a while.
Well, cool, whatever.
But pretty recently after we had started dating, she was going to move in with him. In his small little apartment. Like, on his floor. Something about fighting with her mom, and it only lasting until she moved to NYC to be with her boyfriend.
Who, guess what, my boyfriend absolutely hates.
Well, that never happened (thank god), and it was decided she was going to just move to NYC straight from her mother's house. And that was fine with me.
But now there's issues going on with her and her boyfriend, and, though he's hung out with her less because he's been spending time with me, suddenly she's posted on his wall about how stoked she is to go to the zoo with him.

And I know its innocent. But my mind and heart are racing and I cannot get my thoughts away from it.
There's really no advice to be had here- I just kinda wanted to vent.

[LaZodiac]

Venting is always ok Rabbit. It's what prevents thoughts from turning into tire irons stuck in someone's frontal lobe.

[Syka]

Technically, I was 21. 22 is actually far more appropriate, in my opinion however. I will not dispute that at 21 I would officially no longer be a virgin, but I would by no means term it sex (that would be the 22 marker). One could say "technical difficulties" occurred.


...actually, I like that far more than "disease" or "dysfunction". :smallbiggrin:


As for average age, in the US I think it is 17-18 (male/female), for the world I'd put it at about 15-16. Unless I'm mistaken, males often begin younger.

Regardless, I know I am a bit of an outlier, but it was by choice (well, until 21 anyway). Particularly given the difficulties I went through, I can't imagine a better partner than the one I had nor could I ever regret it. Like, I recognize that Ex or Not-Quite-An-Ex would have probably been terrible partners to have when dealing with what I did. *shudders at the thought*


Dvil, it doesn't really change you. Maybe it's 'cause I'd been trying so long, but no one figured out I'd had sex without me telling them, and I literally felt no different. Part of it is probably in how people act post-intercourse.

Now, my typical advice (unsolicited, though it is):
-Make sure you have anti-baby making precautions taken care of. At your age, two for good measure (at least, I'm assuming you aren't itching for a minion yet). This means any combination of Pill, condom, diaphram, etc. Pull and pray does not count.
-Be educated on what can affect said methods (keep condoms out of heat, be careful if using the Pill whilst on antibiotics, etc).
-Discuss now what you would do should said anti-baby making precautions fail you. It's better to do it now, before you are in the situation (and probably freaking the heck out) and can talk rationally and calmly.
-Just plain be educated.
-Have fun. Laugh. Weird things can and will happen. Don't let it get to you, just enjoy it. :smallsmile:



Yeah...I've been through this a lot. :smallsmile: Even when I was younger, I some how became the default sex ed teacher for my friends. Go figure.




RHL, I've so been there. What I've found to work (for me) is, if I feel the insecurity getting overwhelming, I'll just talk to my partner. Not accusatory, but just explain that for some reason I am feeling X way, and I wanted to let them know even though there may be nothing they can do. Just having my partner be aware, and hear their reasoning (and often times, compromise on the situation) can help a lot. That or I'll listen to music until the funk breaks.

The above advice, however, doesn't really hold if he is the type to get defensive. That can just make it worse...>>

[LaZodiac]

Because I forgot, concerning the sex thing, I'm 19 and still a virgin. Though I've never really tried to remedy the situation, as it were (not like I could do anything about it anyway).

Oh, and because this topic can be depressig some times *big hugs from LaZodiac to everyone in the topic*

[Serpentine]

Unless I'm mistaken, males often begin younger.Interestingly, this implies that young men* have older female** partners, which in turn suggests that young women^ are having younger male partners^^ (but later).
When you separate that last part - young women are having sex with younger men - that doesn't jive with my perception of reality. Does it fit with yours?

Because that doesn't quite make sense:
*<17
**>=17
^ >=17
^^ <17

[Syka]

I'd say it's definitely not as uncommon as one would think. I was older than my ex by about a year (no sex, though), and Oz was younger than his ex (first partner) by about 2-3 years.


We're also assuming that virgins are having first time sex with other virgins. What's more likely is that the larger amount of boys that begin young are having sex with older girls and/or girls the same age (or younger) who have had multiple partners. Same goes the other way around. I know very few (any?) people for whom they were also their first partner's first partner. Off the top of my head, I can't name any.


It would be interesting to figure out the distribution, actually...Not just in when people start but their partners age relative to their own...


Study time!

[Serpentine]

My ex and I were each other's firsts, he a little older than me.
I dunno, you might have a point.

[LaZodiac]

I can name atleast one, but I don't think I'm aloud to say.

Also, keep in mind for your studying that even Canada has some lax laws concerning this stuff. Most of the country, 16 is the legal age.

[ZombyWoof]

Oh one other thing. When someone says "Stop" you stop. Don't keep going, don't pull out, don't do anything but stop moving and await further instructions.

EDIT: 2/3rds of the girls... no... 3/4ths of the girls I've spent extended time with (not girlfriends) were older than me.

So far for girlfriends I'm averagine 2/3rds of a year older than I am almost exactly :smallcool:

[Syka]

Oh one other thing. When someone says "Stop" you stop. Don't keep going, don't pull out, don't do anything but stop moving and await further instructions.

EDIT: 2/3rds of the girls... no... 3/4ths of the girls I've spent extended time with (not girlfriends) were older than me.


Can I hug you? Seriously...that's brilliant advice and I can't believe I forgot it. Normally, I only give it out when someone is having issues but it's SO true.


Yeah, it was funny trying to explain that one in media res...


Also, I'm sure there are those for whom they are each others first. I just don't know any personally, and have a feeling it's more common for one partner to have more experience, so to speak.

[Zeb The Troll]

I was 15. My first is less than two months older than I am. I was not her first. In fact, she was pregnant when we met.

[Vonriel]

I've yet to do the deed, at the ripe old age of 23. I'll likely see 24 and 25 before I even am able to contemplate such things. Probably be my late 20's by the time it's actually done. Am I worried? Upset? Feel out of place? Nah. It's a personal choice which I'm fine with explaining to anyone who wishes to know. Granted, it will leave me feeling a little bashful the first time, and I'll likely have to endure some amount of amusement at my expense, but hey, if she's worth it, she's worth it, y'know what I mean?

My brother and sister-in-law would probably say they were each others' firsts if asked, though I'm not entirely sure how true that is. :smalltongue:

[ZombyWoof]

Can I hug you?
I will never turn down a hug, so... please? :smallbiggrin:

[Alarra]

edit: On this topic, open question: How old were you when you gained your non-virginity (or possibly, if you haven't yet, how old are you), and what do you think is about the average age for it? No cheating and looking up the stats for it.
16 for me, and I would guess the average at about 16. I was not his first. However, the next two guys I was with, I was their first...and older than them.

[loopy]

I had all my firsts at the age of 18, I was a relatively late bloomer. Seems like I have made up for lost time, however.

[Sholos]

25 and still a virgin. 25 and still haven't had a romantic relationship of any kind. 25 and still haven't been on a date that both people were aware was a date. And not from lack of trying.

[Coidzor]

Oh one other thing. When someone says "Stop" you stop. Don't keep going, don't pull out, don't do anything but stop moving and await further instructions.

Uh... Yeah... That's just a huge quagmire right there. :/


Because I forgot, concerning the sex thing, I'm 19 and still a virgin. Though I've never really tried to remedy the situation, as it were (not like I could do anything about it anyway).

You're an adult woman. If you truly wanted to, you could. :smalltongue:

[Blisstake]

Hmm, interesting. You think 19 qualifies as an adult?

I'm 19 right now, but I always thought a good age (which of course varies from person to person) to be about 25. That probably seems absurdly late to a lot of people, but if I'm correct, that's when the brain stops its major development. It's around (though it, again, varies) that age I seem to see a major change in most people.

It's probably why I've been so reluctant to get into any relationships until recently. Or maybe it's just because I've seen so many fall apart around me. Maybe I need to be more positive about this.

[Coidzor]

Hmm, interesting. You think 19 qualifies as an adult?

It does seem to be beyond the legal age of adulthood in most countries as far as I can tell, yes.

[Blisstake]

You meant legally. Duh. I fail at context sometimes.

[Serpentine]

Uh... Yeah... That's just a huge quagmire right there. :/I'd like to add, there, that that's not necessarily a rape-related issue, but also potentially a... mechanical, comfort-related one.

Heheh... Overheard in college: "Oooh. Uung. Oh. Uh. Uh uh uh uh uh uh uhSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOP."

[ZombyWoof]

I'd like to add, there, that that's not necessarily a rape-related issue, but also potentially a... mechanical, comfort-related one.

It's MOSTLY a mechanical, comfort-related one. I've tried to use it on a girl once (the way she was moving hurt really bad) and she... didn't just freeze. Ouch. Plus when she pulled off she gave me this look of utter fear and it's like "no no no no I just need you to not do THAT."

Stop means stop. Like when you get to a stop sign, it doesn't mean you're getting a ticket, and it doesn't mean back up, and it doesn't mean slow down. It means stop. Stop doesn't mean you need to leave, or that s/he doesn't like you, or that the encounter is over. It means stop what you are doing and freeze because something isn't quiiiite right.

If I honestly felt the need to explain in this thread why rape is not ok then frankly I'd just give up on humanity and live life as a hermit instead.

P.S. Serp? I lol'd.

[Serpentine]

I'm sure it's not necessary to explain that, but some people might not realise that... basically, consentual sex can become rape if one person asks to stop part-way through.

And yeah, so did we :smallamused: I think it happened at like 3 in the afternoon, too...

[Coidzor]

Stop doesn't mean you need to leave, or that s/he doesn't like you, or that the encounter is over. It means stop what you are doing and freeze because something isn't quiiiite right.

And I'm saying that's not a given.

[Serpentine]

That doesn't make it bad advice, though. Note the "await further instructions" bit, which may well consist of "I'm not comfortable with this, please leave."

[Coidzor]

That doesn't make it bad advice, though. Note the "await further instructions" bit, which may well consist of "I'm not comfortable with this, please leave."

Ehh... I'm not even going that far, I'm just saying you can't take it as a given that stop doesn't also mean cease congress.

[Serpentine]

What do you suggest, then? Risk further discomfort by withdrawing without being told, risk further discomfort by staying still until advised otherwise, or enter a quantum state of neither in nor out?
I maintain that "stop = freeze and await further instructions" is the best advice in that situation.

[ZombyWoof]

Ehh... I'm not even going that far, I'm just saying you can't take it as a given that stop doesn't also mean cease congress.
If the person who wants to stop is capable of saying "stop" they are also capable of noticing that you stopped and saying, "Please leave."

And there are definitely times in sexytimes where "pulling out" is a bit more complicated than it sounds. Those times would be called, well, the "best times." Also "the times in which things are most likely to go absolutely at cataclysmically wrong."

[Zeb The Troll]

Troll Patrol: Let's stop trying to explain what can go wrong and leave it at "things can go wrong".

[term1nally s1ck]

Because I forgot, concerning the sex thing, I'm 19 and still a virgin. Though I've never really tried to remedy the situation, as it were (not like I could do anything about it anyway).

Oh, and because this topic can be depressig some times *big hugs from LaZodiac to everyone in the topic*

I've seen your photo in the You thread. If you wanted to do something about it, you'd barely have to try.

[Drascin]

edit: On this topic, open question: How old were you when you gained your non-virginity (or possibly, if you haven't yet, how old are you), and what do you think is about the average age for it? No cheating and looking up the stats for it.

18 for me, and I reckon around 16.

Haven't lost virginity nor had any actual romantic relationship I'd consider worth calling such, am 23, no change to this in sight. Truth be told, this does not concern me much, except I admit there's a certain lingering worry that in the unlikely chance I do end up meeting someone, I'm going to mess it up so much without the excuse of age most people get :smalltongue:.

As for the second question... 15, 16, I figure.

[Form]

edit: On this topic, open question: How old were you when you gained your non-virginity (or possibly, if you haven't yet, how old are you), and what do you think is about the average age for it? No cheating and looking up the stats for it.

I'm 23 and still a virgin. I imagine 16 is about the age at which most people lose their virginity.

I don't worry that much about sex or my first time though. Sure, I do want it to be part of a relationship, but it's something that's still in the distant future. For the time being I focus on finding romance and sex is something I'll deal with when the time actually comes. My first time probably won't be that great, but I think that's to be expected since I don't have any experience and because my expectations probably won't be an accurate reflection of reality.

[Delorges]

22 year old virgin, and unlikely to change anytime soon. Guess I could do something about it, if I wanted to, but I'm not really into casual sex (at least not as a first experience) and I'm not really eager to enter a relationship either, at least at this moment.

I'd guesstimate the average to be at 14-15.

EDIT: It's actually quite reassuring to know that I'm not alone with this and that there are more people my age or even older who haven't had sex yet.^^

[MountainKing]

Pull and pray does not count.

OH MY WORD YES. I am so very tired of people being "surprised" that this doesn't always work. And by "doesn't always" I mean "every time I hear this happened, babies are also involved". :smallannoyed:

As for myself, my God, how did I forget to subscribe the new thread?! For me, I was 18, going on 19, and she was 21. She was also significantly more experienced than I was. I suppose that means you can add one more to the "Males giving virginity to older female" list.

[polity4life]

I was 19 when I lost mine then went on a very unfulfilling tear. One-nighters, flings, and friends with benefits just don't cut it when compared to meaningful connection. Different strokes for different folks though.

As for the average? I'm putting it at 14 and a hook (14.5).

[ZombyWoof]

OH MY WORD YES. I am so very tired of people being "surprised" that this doesn't always work. And by "doesn't always" I mean "every time I hear this happened, babies are also involved". :smallannoyed:

60% effective if I remember my stats correctly. Assuming perfect usage. 40% overall.

[polity4life]

Switching gears now, I’m running into a complication in my relationship. I’ll give a little history then bring you to the current issue. I’m in my late twenties and she is in her early-mid twenties. We are renting a house together and have been dating for about a year and a half. I work full-time and I’m just about to finish my post-graduate program while she is working part-time and is pretty deep into her undergraduate program. There is a lot of love in the relationship and we both see a future.

The problem is that she is a bit immature in some departments that confound the hell out of me. Before I continue, I want to say that I have my foibles, she knows them, and readily points them out when they become an issue. We talk it over, I try to make adjustments, and we’re both better off until I do or say something stupid again. So by immature, I do not mean irresponsible. She doesn’t do stupid stuff, cause drama, or act like an attention-starved brat. By immature, I mean she cannot handle a stressful load. She absolutely shuts down at a certain point and lets things slide, most notably her school obligations and personal goals. She can’t keep trudging, which is something I thought was a fundamental part of adult life. My belief is that life is going to be hard the lion’s share of the time, so get used to it. Evidently, that is not the best response to her peak periods.

So my question then is this: What should I do? From my understanding and experience, a lover absolutely cannot be a coach. A healthy relationship involves 100% commitment from two people who respect and care for one another. The issue with trying to coach is that the respect prerequisite may be violated, even if only by interpretation.

Let me give you an example. She woke up very late one morning and had to travel 10 miles in 15 minutes, to a place she had never been before, without having time to groom and dress herself. As soon as she saw the time, she just busted out crying and stopped. I wake up to her crying, find out what’s going on, and my first response is, “What are you doing?! GET MOVING!” I rush to the bathroom, whip some toothpaste onto her toothbrush, grab an empty cup and a cup of water for her, grab stuff for her to clean herself up, and set it all in front of her. “Get dressed! Brush your teeth in the car! Here are better directions to get to that place! Give me a call when you get to the exit and I’ll guide you in! My car is faster and won’t die so take it! Go go go!” Now mind you I’m not screaming but I’m a bit excited. If she missed this appointment, she would have essentially wasted a year of collegiate education. She gets there in time, miraculously, and it’s a happy ending, right?

The issue here is not that she woke up late. That stuff happens. The issue is the surrender, the breakdown. I can’t understand that and I don’t know how to react to it appropriately. We have had other events like this and my responses, according to her, are unforgiving and harsh. To me, I sound like this: “You’ve been here before. You can do this again. Just keep working. It sucks now, I know, but you know it’s going to change at some point; you just have to keep at it.” I’m absolutely sure it comes out differently, without any swearing or intentional effrontery though, and I’m 100% sure it is interpreted differently by her, which then leads to a fight and only makes her feel worse.

So what is the right response here? I don’t want to coddle her because I shouldn’t have. I don’t want to tell her what to do either because, again, I shouldn’t have to. This relationship works on trust and I have to be able to trust her to take care of her affairs and address her goals. Much of the time, things are running fine for her. Too often though she loses focus, procrastinates, and puts herself into binds. She’s a capable woman, has ambitions, and is working to make those ambitions a reality. It’s just sometimes it’s like watching a car on square wheels and anytime I try to intervene, I just cause another issue to arise.

[ZombyWoof]

To be very, very honest... it sounds like you two are on the precipice of finding out that you are incompatible with each other. You say that you can't keep coaching someone like this and she says that you're being harsh and unforgiving. She has maturity issues with regards to getting stuff done, and that bothers the heck out of you.

I'm sure you love each other but you might not be compatible.

Also you are absolutely incorrect that there can be no mutual coaching in a relationship. There are things that I'm bad at and things that I'm good at, and ideally my partner would be willing to coach me to get better at the things i'm bad at and be willing to be coached by me to get better at the things I'm good at.

In fact, the coach-player relationship has a LOT of respect in it.

As a general rule of thumb, trying to teach a significant other something is very difficult, but there have been plenty of relationships in which one partner is a motivating force to get things done. Just ask Syka, she mentioned that she had to push Oz to get his academic act together iirc, and Oz has responded very well. And they're quite happy.

[polity4life]

I think we may have to agree to disagree on coaching. I feel that a partner should enable the other to engage in constructive activities, reach goals, etc. Coaching, to me, is a step or two ahead of enabling and it's something that just shouldn't be done. I view coaching as taking on a project and I don't want to take on a project in this part of my life.

As far as imcompatability is concerned, it has been in the back of my mind but I have to remind myself of the areas where we are compatable to keep perspective. A lot of the little things are similar between her and I: hobbies, tastes, wants, etc. And although our ages are close and we're in our twenties, we are in somewhat different worlds. I'm in my career job, though in a new field. She's trying to get to her career job. Folks change once they hit a milestone they've been pushing for. Maybe that's what she needs.

And, I'll admit, I have a selfish reason for bringing this up publically. I don't view myself as an emotionally mature person. I don't throw tantrums and break things, but I also don't respond accordingly to some situations. Like anyone else, things that I don't understand upset me. I don't understand a lot of what she's going through, which exacerbates already tense moments. If it turns out that her and I cut it off down the line, I want to walk away knowing more about how to respond to circumstances like this.

[ZombyWoof]

As far as imcompatability is concerned, it has been in the back of my mind but I have to remind myself of the areas where we are compatable to keep perspective. A lot of the little things are similar between her and I: hobbies, tastes, wants, etc.
Those are surface similarities not compatibilities. Believe me, I met someone who enjoyed the same music, food, hobbies, and everything that I did. We even had similar and compatible goals in life, but we were fundamentally incompatible people, and we discovered this specifically because the kinds of arguments you have with her keep popping up.



And although our ages are close and we're in our twenties, we are in somewhat different worlds. I'm in my career job, though in a new field. She's trying to get to her career job. Folks change once they hit a milestone they've been pushing for. Maybe that's what she needs.
Then you should be with her then. But listen to yourself: you're staying with her on the off-chance that she changes who she is in a way that suits you better. We have a word for that around here, and it rhymes with "unwealthy." Also rhymes with "unbear" but I haven't seen many of the unbears lately.
things that are similar to bears but not quite. Like a panda.


And, I'll admit, I have a selfish reason for bringing this up publically. I don't view myself as an emotionally mature person. I don't throw tantrums and break things, but I also don't respond accordingly to some situations. Like anyone else, things that I don't understand upset me. I don't understand a lot of what she's going through, which exacerbates already tense moments. If it turns out that her and I cut it off down the line, I want to walk away knowing more about how to respond to circumstances like this.
The emotionally mature thing to do is to look at the relationship. You see a future together, but what if that future is full of fights just like this one? What if it never gets resolved? Is that what you want to be with?

If the answer is "no" then you have your answer as to what the proper response to this fight is. If the answer is "yes" then you should probably just learn to start letting it go now, and the proper response is to let her live her life as she sees fit... and learn to deal with her consequences.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Hmm, interesting. You think 19 qualifies as an adult?

While I realize this is a legal based discussion, my parents say you aren't an adult till you turn 40.

[Jonesh]

Welp.
Relation****:
Nothing happened with my old crush.
We had a small get-together with her, another girl and four other guys and later another girl (who was one guy's girlfriend). I and another guy kind of dominated the conversation at first but then I felt less and less suave as the night wore on and that's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy :smallannoyed:
I had a heck of a chance at first since she and I were the first to arrive, I should have given her a peck on the cheek and told her she looked nice, I dunno, maybe? :smallsigh:

I talked to her a lot and gave her playful pokes and touched her reassuringly whenever it felt like it would be appropriate and she liked that but then she sat next to me and had her legs crossed so that she was having one leg right next to my hand (I rested my arm on the table) so I "boldly", uh, slowly caressed her leg with one of my fingers and smiled. She changed legs after maybe 10 seconds :smallfrown:
Well, at least I didn't see anything happen with the other guys. I was probably a bit jealous so what there was there was probably not really flirting. Still, I wanted to flirt a bit. I feel I kind of needed that.
She ended up staying at one of the guys who lived in that town together with another of the guys who came across the country to meet up, she said she did that because it was more practical for her to stay in that city because her bus doesn't go from my city. I believe she was telling the truth and that was really the reason. I can't know for sure though :smallsigh:
We planned for her to stay at my place before so I'm kind of disappointed, I guess I have a thing for wishy-washiness or something :smallsigh:
I think I should just chill out though, the wounds are still fresh from our drama and she doesn't trust me or my feelings again to be just FWB etc. etc.
We talked about chilling out in the future though, especially after her graduation because then she would be a lot less busy.
I just want to have an uncommitted, non-serious and physical relationship with her and I don't know how I could get that or even if it's possible goddammit :smallsigh:

Mo' money, mo' problems:
In addition to bad luck with relationships, I'm poor. "What does this has to do with relationships?" you ask? Well, I've been meaning to call my maternal grandfather for some time to ask for some money as a loan or gift so I can get my driver's license so I can apply for more jobs plus have a little buffer-money for whenever the **** hits the fan.
Problem is, he and I don't really see eye-to-eye. I've been having some problems with depressions and stuff like that and he is completely unsympathetic towards that (he thinks that all those things are just fake) and he haven't done anything for me for years.
Meanwhile, he's kind of spoiled my cousin rotten. Which stinks, because I've been working my ass of trying to become independent and work through my problems while she gets a whole apartment as a present.
So I don't really know how to approach my grandfather about this issue and that's what I need advice on, if you can give it. He's also the only one who might have that kind of money on hand so I'm kind of stuck :smallsigh:


Thanks in advance :smallsmile:

EDIT: On the topic of virginity I had intercourse for the first time when I was 17. She was considerably more experienced than me and it ended up meaning nothing for either of us. Because of that I'm kind of intimidated of sex now. Though I've had sex a few times after that I still feel like a virgin :smallsigh:

Average age for losing your virginity here in Sweden is about 16 or 17 years old I guess.

[MeatShield#236]

*Delurks*

I'm 17 and still a virgin and will probably remain so for at least a few more years. Never had a relationship, I'm waiting until after High School.

*Goes back to lurking*

[term1nally s1ck]

Well, with an NPC name like that, you're never gonna get laid onscreen.

Perhaps if you became a Named character, things might work out. I personally recommend the most dramatic moment possible to declare your name and sweep the lady off her feet. Might take some setup, but you'll manage, I'm sure.

[Lissou]

I was 19 when I lost my virginity. I would say the average in France (where I'm originally from) probably is 16 or 17, with some people losing it earlier (like 14 or so) or later (in their 20s, 30s or later, with less and less people as the age raises). But as far as the average goes, 16-17 due to it being an average.

I mean, due to how averages work, one person losing it at 30 for 5 losing it at 14 would result in an average of 16.5, even though a huge majority had their experience at 14. So to me the "average age of first experience" isn't at all like the "age most people have their first experience" because people who have sex much later can raise the average by a lot.

[SquirrelKing]

I was actually 20 when I first had sex, and though it wasn't her first time (and was two years younger than me), I was glad for that fact, as she was able to teach me. Boy, was I a nervous wreck though.

I'm 34 years old now, and think that (hoo boy, I hate to say this) when I was younger *wince* the age at which people lost their virginity is likely similar to the average now. Thankfully, I rarely felt like an outcast for not having sex in high school, as there were certainly opportunities occasionally (one I can say I regret not acting on), but as a few others have mentioned, I too was not interested in casual relations. And finally, after dating that girl for about 6 months, she started my....ahem...training.

Without a doubt, my advice (old-fashioned as it is) is to wait until it feels right to you, and not cave to peer pressure. Easier said, than done, I'm well aware.

[Sarco_Phage]

Just gonna chime in and say the average in America is a lot lower than it was twenty years ago.

I'm not American though, and where I'm from the average is about sixteen-twenty or so.

[snoopy13a]

Just gonna chime in and say the average in America is a lot lower than it was twenty years ago.

I'm not American though, and where I'm from the average is about sixteen-twenty or so.

Are you sure about that? 1991 wasn't exactly the Victorian era.

[Sarco_Phage]

Are you sure about that? 1991 wasn't exactly the Victorian era.

I've read articles that say the average age nowadays is 13-14, and I think it was lower back then despite what Stephen King and Peter Straub would have me believe.

[The Rose Dragon]

I'm 21. I'm still a virgin. It's kind of a sore topic. Though the virginity thing is not as big a deal as fear of intimacy (after all, a virginity is an easy thing to lose).

[Coidzor]

Welp.
Relation****:
Nothing happened with my old crush.
We had a small get-together with her, another girl and four other guys and later another girl (who was one guy's girlfriend). I and another guy kind of dominated the conversation at first but then I felt less and less suave as the night wore on and that's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy :smallannoyed:
I had a heck of a chance at first since she and I were the first to arrive, I should have given her a peck on the cheek and told her she looked nice, I dunno, maybe? :smallsigh:

I talked to her a lot and gave her playful pokes and touched her reassuringly whenever it felt like it would be appropriate and she liked that but then she sat next to me and had her legs crossed so that she was having one leg right next to my hand (I rested my arm on the table) so I "boldly", uh, slowly caressed her leg with one of my fingers and smiled. She changed legs after maybe 10 seconds :smallfrown:
Well, at least I didn't see anything happen with the other guys. I was probably a bit jealous so what there was there was probably not really flirting. Still, I wanted to flirt a bit. I feel I kind of needed that.
She ended up staying at one of the guys who lived in that town together with another of the guys who came across the country to meet up, she said she did that because it was more practical for her to stay in that city because her bus doesn't go from my city. I believe she was telling the truth and that was really the reason. I can't know for sure though :smallsigh:
We planned for her to stay at my place before so I'm kind of disappointed, I guess I have a thing for wishy-washiness or something :smallsigh:
I think I should just chill out though, the wounds are still fresh from our drama and she doesn't trust me or my feelings again to be just FWB etc. etc.
We talked about chilling out in the future though, especially after her graduation because then she would be a lot less busy.
I just want to have an uncommitted, non-serious and physical relationship with her and I don't know how I could get that or even if it's possible goddammit :smallsigh:

My gut reaction is she's stringing you along just to keep in practice and have a toy at her beck and call and the rest of her friend circle can smell this and will think of you as a yiddish term of one sort or another and that you should really drop her and as much of her friend circle as possible and go looking elsewhere at your earliest possibility.

[Zeb The Troll]

While I realize this is a legal based discussion, my parents say you aren't an adult till you turn 40.My two grandchildren (well, one + one on the way) would probably disagree with that. *is not yet 40*

:smallcool:

[ZombyWoof]

Welp.
Relation****:
Nothing happened with my old crush.
We had a small get-together with her, another girl and four other guys and later another girl (who was one guy's girlfriend). I and another guy kind of dominated the conversation at first but then I felt less and less suave as the night wore on and that's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy :smallannoyed:
I had a heck of a chance at first since she and I were the first to arrive, I should have given her a peck on the cheek and told her she looked nice, I dunno, maybe? :smallsigh:

I talked to her a lot and gave her playful pokes and touched her reassuringly whenever it felt like it would be appropriate and she liked that but then she sat next to me and had her legs crossed so that she was having one leg right next to my hand (I rested my arm on the table) so I "boldly", uh, slowly caressed her leg with one of my fingers and smiled. She changed legs after maybe 10 seconds :smallfrown:
Well, at least I didn't see anything happen with the other guys. I was probably a bit jealous so what there was there was probably not really flirting. Still, I wanted to flirt a bit. I feel I kind of needed that.
She ended up staying at one of the guys who lived in that town together with another of the guys who came across the country to meet up, she said she did that because it was more practical for her to stay in that city because her bus doesn't go from my city. I believe she was telling the truth and that was really the reason. I can't know for sure though :smallsigh:
We planned for her to stay at my place before so I'm kind of disappointed, I guess I have a thing for wishy-washiness or something :smallsigh:
I think I should just chill out though, the wounds are still fresh from our drama and she doesn't trust me or my feelings again to be just FWB etc. etc.
We talked about chilling out in the future though, especially after her graduation because then she would be a lot less busy.
I just want to have an uncommitted, non-serious and physical relationship with her and I don't know how I could get that or even if it's possible goddammit :smallsigh:

Long story short:

STOP HANGING OUT WITH GIRLS WHO TREAT YOU LIKE A TOY.

[Jonesh]

My gut reaction is she's stringing you along just to keep in practice and have a toy at her beck and call and the rest of her friend circle can smell this and will think of you as a yiddish term of one sort or another and that you should really drop her and as much of her friend circle as possible and go looking elsewhere at your earliest possibility.

I am not familiar with yiddish at all, if it's inappropriate perhaps you could PM which word you mean? It's probably something I've heard before but I don't know it's yiddish :smalltongue:
Also, yeah maybe. But I don't want anything serious with her either. I want to at least slake my curiousity by getting in bed with her since she is so pretty and seems so fun and uninhibited in bed, it's been so long since I've had good sex and I feel so lonely :smallfrown:
I think some physical comfort would ease that loneliness and help me find other girls because I'll be more relaxed and at ease.


Long story short:

STOP HANGING OUT WITH GIRLS WHO TREAT YOU LIKE A TOY.

WELL I WANT TO TREAT HER LIKE A TOY IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN :smallwink:

But yeah, I guess I have bad taste but I can't really find any good girls :smallsigh:




Also, I'm gonna call my grandpa today I think, within the hour or something. I talked to my mom about it and she said it might work as long as I was polite and emphasized that I have gotten a job I'm good at but that untill I get another job I'm struggling to make ends meet and that a buffer for rent and/or especially a driver's license would make it easier for me to get another job.
That doesn't make me dread it any less though :smallsigh:

[Adumbration]

I'm starting to think that this may just be the advice for me... But I hardly meet any other girls apart from the girls from my college, so I'm in a bit of a bind. :smalltongue:
http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/8025/0715921.jpg

[Form]

Interesting thought: Queen's day is coming up and I feel like scrounging up a date for it. It seems like a fine opportunity with all the festivities and big markets about. There are a couple of girls I'm interested in at the moment, so I think I'll ask one of them if they feel like going. Can't just sit around on my arse and let the opportunity go to waste now, can I? :smalltongue:

[Dvil]

Interesting thought: Queen's day is coming up and I feel like scrounging up a date for it. It seems like a fine opportunity with all the festivities and big markets about. There are a couple of girls I'm interested in at the moment, so I think I'll ask one of them if they feel like going. Can't just sit around on my arse and let the opportunity go to waste now, can I? :smalltongue:

Good man. Let us know how it goes!

[Jonesh]

Well, no help from grandpa. He thinks I should wait it out a bit more to see if it gets better because he doesn't think I'm "trying hard enough". Sure, I might get another job despite being young, inexperienced and uneducated with no contacts in this recession :smallsigh:

He said he might help in the future yeah, but I need the money now :smallfrown:

[Gaius Marius]

Heya.

There's this really cute Chinese girl I've met in my Kung-Fu class. Been single for 2 months now, thinking I could maybe go back into the stage. Usually, I don't have any problem dealing with girls, but this time, I need advice..

So, she's nice. I got to talk to her, and she's interesting, she's bright and friendly. I think we click, and I'd probably ask her to get coffee (Stage 1 of a relationship --> 15 minutes coffee, don't overextend).

I'm 25, so I know the drill with these things; wait for the right moment. It ain't my first rodeo..

here's the problem: while talking to her, I discovered she's 17. Damn. Still in high school.

YES, I had flashes of Scott Pilgrim in my head, no need to remind me of that, thank you very much.

So.. what are the Rules of Engagement? Is it too creepy to ask her out, period? Am I allowed to scout my chances? Am I in the zone of "Sexless Date" allowed?

[The Rose Dragon]

Man, too bad she isn't 18. I would tell you to go for it in an instant if she was.

[Gaius Marius]

Man, too bad she isn't 18. I would tell you to go for it in an instant if she was.

Is it creepy to have sexless dates with her until she turns 18? That is another possibility.

I just wanna know what is acceptable, what isn't. Also, I have to consider her culture. She seems to be very well integrated in Montreal's society, but I can't take a long bet that her parents are too.

On one hand, I have a good and serious job, so that's maybe + with them. On the other hand, I'm freaking 8 years older than her.

[The Rose Dragon]

On the other hand, I'm freaking 8 years older than her.

Could be worse. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MayDecemberRomance) I suggest taking a look at the Real Life section for eye-opening differences.

[Blisstake]

"Could be worse" usually isn't much consolation. Just from experience.

Anyway, I'd recommend against it, at least until she's out of high school. Even if she's mature for her age, there's a lot of baggage involved with high school students.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Just gonna chime in and say the average in America is a lot lower than it was twenty years ago.

I'm not American though, and where I'm from the average is about sixteen-twenty or so.

I believe reading it was 13 or 14 back when I was ... 12 (so in 2007)?

EDIT: Severely Ninjask'd.


My two grandchildren (well, one + one on the way) would probably disagree with that. *is not yet 40*

:smallcool:

*shrugs* I have OLD parents, so there you go (Dad was born in '49 and Grandpa was born in '99 (you read that right)).

[junglesteve]

I think its creepy that you're 25 and want to date a 17 year old.

[Gaius Marius]

"Could be worse" usually isn't much consolation. Just from experience.

Anyway, I'd recommend against it, at least until she's out of high school. Even if she's mature for her age, there's a lot of baggage involved with high school students.

Which means, 2 months?

I can wait 2 months.

Although I think I'll ask her when's her birthday.. in an innoculous manner, I hope :smallwink:

(wait, is innoculous the right word?)

[Gaius Marius]

I think its creepy that you're 25 and want to date a 17 year old.

Yhea, that's what I was afraid of. :smallfrown:

Although, I wanted to date her BEFORE I suspected she was 17. If I had to make a guess, I'd have said about 20-21. Her age is more of a deterrent than anything else.

[Blisstake]

Are you in regular contact with her right now, or is it just via a Kung-Fu class?

[Gaius Marius]

Are you in regular contact with her right now, or is it just via a Kung-Fu class?

Only kung-fu and Facebook.

Not changing my schedule to see her more, just a few minutes of talk before classes, to be friendly, like I do my friends.


Why?

[Blisstake]

Well, you should probably she if she's comfortable spending more time with you before asking her out. But like you said, coffee is probably a good idea. Looks like you know what you're doing :smallsmile:

[DeadManSleeping]

Although I think I'll ask her when's her birthday.. in an innoculous manner, I hope :smallwink:

"Innocuous". No "L"

I don't think your life would be worse off for getting to know her better, but don't go into it expecting romance. There's a lot of life in those 8 years, and that gap can be really, REALLY hard to connect across. Even if she's mature for her age, there's no replacement for experience.

[Gaius Marius]

Well, you should probably she if she's comfortable spending more time with you before asking her out. But like you said, coffee is probably a good idea. Looks like you know what you're doing :smallsmile:

I know how to "engage". :smallwink:

I don't know what the Rules of Engagement are. Like junglesteve's comment, I feel guilty actually considering this, but she is a nice girl.. so far (never really know 'til the 4th date, mesay)

[ZombyWoof]

Is it creepy to have sexless dates with her until she turns 18? That is another possibility.

I just wanna know what is acceptable, what isn't. Also, I have to consider her culture. She seems to be very well integrated in Montreal's society, but I can't take a long bet that her parents are too.

On one hand, I have a good and serious job, so that's maybe + with them. On the other hand, I'm freaking 8 years older than her.
I have friends who are 8+ years older than I am. It is a little strange that you want to date her and you may very well run into a LOT of problems such as maturity, world view, etc. etc.

I wouldn't suggest going for a date but at least hanging out with her isn't a problem.


I think its creepy that you're 25 and want to date a 17 year old.
Actually from his description of it it's not a power play and it's not creepy at all. "Fun and interesting girl! How old are you fun and interesting girl?" "I'm seventeen fun and interesting guy." ... "UH OH ALERTY ALERT ALERT."

Hang out with her outside and find out what you're comfortable with.

[Blisstake]

I know how to "engage". :smallwink:

I don't know what the Rules of Engagement are. Like junglesteve's comment, I feel guilty actually considering this, but she is a nice girl.. so far (never really know 'til the 4th date, mesay)

Well, I don't think it's creepy so long as she's out of high school. But 17 seems old enough; I mean, depending on the girl. The way you describe her, it sounds like she's mentally mature, and I thinks that's what's important.

[Gaius Marius]

Thanks people, I'll remember these advices..

Although if my friends start calling me "Scott", I'll get my revenge on you all!! :smallmad:



:smallwink:

[Coidzor]

Actually from his description of it it's not a power play and it's not creepy at all.

:smallconfused: ...It doesn't have to be a power play in order to be creepy or odd. Indeed, just being noticed as unusual is usually enough for others to negatively judge something. Especially if they're the parents of a highschool girl who they find is getting chatted up by a 25 year old.

As for the actual subject and advice that'd be used, well, tread carefully and beware the parents. For my actual sentiments, scrub the mission.

[Gaius Marius]

As for the actual subject and advice that'd be used, well, tread carefully and beware the parents. For my actual sentiments, scrub the mission.

Thank you for your honest reply.

I think I'll have the abort button ready to press in case of potential trouble. Any classic foreshadowing clues I should be on the lookout for?

[ZombyWoof]

:smallconfused: ...It doesn't have to be a power play in order to be creepy or odd. Indeed, just being noticed as unusual is usually enough for others to negatively judge something. Especially if they're the parents of a highschool girl who they find is getting chatted up by a 25 year old.

There's a difference between creepy and odd. If it's not a power play then I don't find it creepy. When we're born is largely not decided by us, and it seems unfair to be unhappy because the time when we were born is inconvenient.

Is it odd? Yeah. That's why I recommend being friends for now to make sure a relationship would work. But Coidzor, you yourself are quite odd and I don't consider you creepy at all!

[Gaius Marius]

Is it odd? Yeah. That's why I recommend being friends for now to make sure a relationship would work. But Coidzor, you yourself are quite odd and I don't consider you creepy at all!

Wait, you recommend me of going into the Friend Zone(tm)?

So you DON'T want me to succeed, is that it? :smallconfused:

[ZombyWoof]

*Slaps you around with a large trout*

I assume that's sarcasm. No baiting the Serpentine!

[Tiger Duck]

the Friend Zone(tm)?

Don't let Serp hear you say that, nothing or nearly nothing about being friends excludes a relationship.

But being friends does not make it so that you could have more. Because peoples have lower standards for their friends then for their partners.

[Lissou]

If you have her on Facebook, can you check for her birthday there?

I don't think 8 years is creepy... I remember in high school, the girls who had boyfriends had boyfriends aged 24-25, nobody was interested in guys their age. I wasn't either, for the record, but I just didn't date at all.
Still, I've never dated someone under 25 either (even though I started when I was 19, so the age difference had been as small as just 6 years). And my first husband was 8 years older than I was, and age definitely wasn't part of why we broke up.

It really depends on the people. You could be with someone your age who's too immature, or you could be with someone younger who is on the same level as you. I wouldn't consider it a reason to just back off, I would say get to know her better first, and see how things go.

I might be old school, but I never considered an age difference to "count" if it was under ten years...

Get to know her well, see what kind of projects and plans she has, long term, middle term and short term, and compare with yours. If you want to settle down right now or in a few years, get married and have kids, for instance, then it's possible that she would think it too fast. So this kind of things is what I would watch for, but if you're in the same place, then I wouldn't worry about it.

[Blisstake]

Doesn't being friends first usually increase the chance of a relationship working out? Based on most of the relationships I've ever seen, anyway.

[Lissou]

Doesn't being friends first usually increase the chance of a relationship working out? Based on most of the relationships I've ever seen, anyway.

Yes. But if the person isn't interested in you, then you stay friends, which caused the creation of the myth of the "Friend Zone". The theory being that because you're friends, you don't have a chance. Of course the truth is the other way around. Because you don't have a chance, you're still friends and it didn't turn into a relationship.

[Dvil]

I've only had two serious relationships so far, so I admit that's nothing like a significant sample size, but both of those grew from friendships. If there is a "Friend Zone", then for me at least that's the best place to pick up chicks :smallwink:

[Gaius Marius]

Don't let Serp hear you say that, nothing or nearly nothing about being friends excludes a relationship.

But being friends does not make it so that you could have more. Because peoples have lower standards for their friends then for their partners.

Well, I don't know who that "Serpentine" you are all dreading is, but it has been my personnal experience that whenever I become friend with a girl usually results in me never getting any chance with her.

As opposed to actually being charming and nice. Hanging out. That sort of thing (which doesn't mean "being her friend". I reserve that denomination to real friendship).

[Gaius Marius]

Yes. But if the person isn't interested in you, then you stay friends, which caused the creation of the myth of the "Friend Zone". The theory being that because you're friends, you don't have a chance. Of course the truth is the other way around. Because you don't have a chance, you're still friends and it didn't turn into a relationship.

Might be, might not. Thing is, behaving to become a friend ain't the same as behaving to try to seduce. You get to show elements of you that might create a nice bond of trust, but don't leave room for mystery and (dare I say it?) wanting more.

Showing not ennough is better than showing too much. Becoming friend means showing a lot of your side.

But that's just me, and I've learned that lesson after years of frustration and ruining friendships, so I'd rather just keep my friends friends, and girls I am interested in.. well, girls I am interested in.

[Blisstake]

Yes. But if the person isn't interested in you, then you stay friends, which caused the creation of the myth of the "Friend Zone". The theory being that because you're friends, you don't have a chance. Of course the truth is the other way around. Because you don't have a chance, you're still friends and it didn't turn into a relationship.

Sounds like a good example of causation vs. correlation.

Edit: Yes, but saying you're trying to seduce a 17 year old girl does sound a bit off.

[Frozen_Feet]

17 and 25 ceases to be slightest bit creepy in my mind once it becomes 18 and 26. So your clear on that account, Gaius.

This coming from a guy whose mother is seven years younger than his father, and whose cousin married a man nearly twice her age.

[Gaius Marius]

Sounds like a good example of causation vs. correlation.

Edit: Yes, but saying you're trying to seduce a 17 year old girl does sound a bit off.

Indeed. But I prefer this than "become her friend so you can have a chance later". For some reason, it.. feels dishonest. I am using friendship to develop a romantic relationship.. Not cool, I think.

I'd rather just get to know her, period. And that occurs by getting to talk to her on a different environment than what we usually meet, 1 on 1. Always better neutral, public ground, for a short time. :smallwink:

And if I realise I really like her, and she likes me, then I'll simply wait until she hits 18, which will be...

(check Facebook)

in more than 8 months. Damn it.


But ultimately, what I think is important when I flirt with a girl, is to be genuine. Faking Friendship is a bad thing, 'cause you aren't interested in friendship.

[Gaius Marius]

Sounds like a good example of causation vs. correlation.

Actually, if I might put my grain of salt on that assessment:

It's bad tactic. (at least, for me). Nothing more. It's not that being a friend puts me in a disadvantage, it's that becoming a girls' friend because I want to make something happen with her is just a stupid move for me to make.

But then again, we are all different. Maybe it works for some people; not me.

[Lissou]

Indeed. But I prefer this than "become her friend so you can have a chance later". For some reason, it.. feels dishonest. I am using friendship to develop a romantic relationship.. Not cool, I think.
[...]
But ultimately, what I think is important when I flirt with a girl, is to be genuine. Faking Friendship is a bad thing, 'cause you aren't interested in friendship.

That's funny, because I was just about to comment that I felt your way was dishonest. That is, you say you plan on not revealing who you really are, revealing different parts of you than you would a friend, etc. And while reading that post (a bit up the page) I kept thinking "that's not honest!"

It's interesting that you think being friends is the dishonest thing. You have to understand though that for me (and probably other people who have suggested it), it's not a ruse or something you pretend to want. The suggestion is to be friends with her, and maybe more will occur, maybe not, but either way you'll be friends, which is great!
You don't seem to think that way, though...

Personally, I don't think I'd ever want to date someone who "isn't interested in a friendship with me". Being my friend is like the most important condition for dating me. But hey, maybe she's different.

[ZombyWoof]

Indeed. But I prefer this than "become her friend so you can have a chance later". For some reason, it.. feels dishonest. I am using friendship to develop a romantic relationship.. Not cool, I think.
No... you're not. You basically walk up and say, "Hey, I think you're cute. I'm not sure if a relationship would work quite yet between us but I do want to know if you're awesome." If you're up front about your attraction an interim friendship will not a) hurt your chances of a fulfilling relationship nor b) be dishonest in any way.



I'd rather just get to know her, period. And that occurs by getting to talk to her on a different environment than what we usually meet, 1 on 1. Always better neutral, public ground, for a short time. :smallwink:
I never said you shouldn't let her know.



And if I realise I really like her, and she likes me, then I'll simply wait until she hits 18, which will be...

(check Facebook)

in more than 8 months. Damn it.


But ultimately, what I think is important when I flirt with a girl, is to be genuine. Faking Friendship is a bad thing, 'cause you aren't interested in friendship.
Dear god... are you not friends with the people you date? Your relationships must suck. I couldn't imagine being in a relationship with someone I wouldn't hang out with even if we weren't dating.

[Gaius Marius]

Dear god... are you not friends with the people you date? Your relationships must suck. I couldn't imagine being in a relationship with someone I wouldn't hang out with even if we weren't dating.

Hmm... I don't know, how do you make the dichotomy between being friend and just dating?

When I date someone, I try to treat her as well as I would a friend, try to invite her in my social circle, get to know hers (if she feels like it). If I discover I am not interested in anything of hers beside.. well, the obvious, I abort the relationship. Because, what kind of relationship would it be otherwise?

Fun fact: I keep friendly relations with all of my exes, with the exception of the single backstabber among them. It still happen to hang out with them from time to time.

It's just.. .... I don't understand what you say. What kind of relationship do you have if you don't get to have the same kind of comprehension/enjoyment with the other party as you would a friend?

I just develop my relationship with girls the wayI develop a friendship.. but just a tad more careful, that's all.

[Sarco_Phage]

Dear god... are you not friends with the people you date? Your relationships must suck. I couldn't imagine being in a relationship with someone I wouldn't hang out with even if we weren't dating.

I have. It worked perfectly fine. The boys you drink with are not the boys you sleep with.

[ForzaFiori]

So, just got turned down by one of the girls I like, and found out that the other got a boyfriend over the weekend. Sucky day.

on ages: I think that how old is "too old" should be based on the ratio between your ages, not the difference. For instance, 30 and 40 (a 3:4 ratio) is much better than 10 and 20 (a 1:2 ratio) despite both being a 10 year gap. While yea, a 10 year old with a 20 year old is a bit extreme, it stays true for 17-27, which is close to what is being discussed. it's not that it's ten years, it's that your almost twice her age. If you wait a few years, you wont be, and it won't be looked down on by others.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Dear god... are you not friends with the people you date? Your relationships must suck. I couldn't imagine being in a relationship with someone I wouldn't hang out with even if we weren't dating.

Being friends with someone you intend to be romantic with before being romantic with them makes things incredibly awkward. For the 1st few dates you go on with someone, people generally act (a little) more ... polite then they do in comparison to when they are hanging out with their friends.

IOW, I agree with Gaius Marius. I would never want to be friends with someone I was going to date BEFORE hand. Now, if you start dating and you become (regular) friends, that's normal/great. I for one would never date someone I've known since 3rd Grade. An acquaintance? Yes.

The whole point of a date is to get to know someone to see if you're interested in becoming intimate/romantic with someone (and eventually marriage or something).

No?

[Glass Mouse]

Wait, you recommend me of going into the Friend Zone(tm)?

So you DON'T want me to succeed, is that it? :smallconfused:

*gets popcorn, waits for Serp*

Anyone want some? :smallwink:


Yes. But if the person isn't interested in you, then you stay friends, which caused the creation of the myth of the "Friend Zone". The theory being that because you're friends, you don't have a chance. Of course the truth is the other way around. Because you don't have a chance, you're still friends and it didn't turn into a relationship.

This is quite possibly the best description of the friend zone problem I've ever seen.


Gaius, I can see why your technique works. If you only show the funny/interesting/whatever sides of yourself, of course people are gonna be interested. But if you also show the ugly/unfunny/whatever sides of yourself, you know they're gonna STAY interested.

Way I see it, there are four possibilities:

Start as friends, become a couple: Both friendship and attraction are present, and the relationship has a much higher possibility for succes than the other possibilites.
Start as friends, stay friends: Attraction isn't present, and romance wouldn't be possible whether or not the friend part existed.
Start as a couple, become friends: Also a high-succes solution, but the succes is very hard to determine until a good bit into the relationship.
Start as couple, don't become friends: Attraction exists, but the basis for more than sex/romance isn't present, and the relationship will fall apart.


You aim for the two last. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but the guarantee for succes will be shaky at best.

You can't be a couple if you aren't friends. Baiting and hoping for the friend part to develop works for some (but you'll probably spend a lot of time in incompatible relationships that leave you little space to search for better alternatives). But I still think the "friends to couple" approach is the strongest.


Also, just fyi, you can multi-quote by hitting the quotation marks next to the "quote" in posts. Double-posting is generally frowned upon :smallsmile:

[Lissou]

The boys you drink with are not the boys you sleep with.

I agree as far as casual sex goes - if I just want to have sex with someone, I don't need them to be able to carry an interesting conversation. But for an actual relationship, when you want to spend at least a share of your life with that person (if not your whole life), I would say that I really need to be able to drink with the guy, otherwise our life outside of sex (and that's most of the time in an actual relationship) would really suck.

I also need to be able to really trust the guy if I'm going to make myself vulnerable to him (emotionally speaking), and I don't think I could trust someone I don't know enough to consider them a friend.

EDIT:


I for one would never date someone I've known since 3rd Grade. An acquaintance? Yes.

At this point, I think I would consider it family more than friends. Anyone I knew before hitting puberty that I wasn't interested in during puberty will be along the lines of a sibling to me. In which case, indeed, nothing will happen. But that's not a "friend zone", it's a "family zone" at this point, and it only applies to people I knew before and through puberty.
(I believe that someone I knew before puberty, then didn't see at all for years, then saw again now, might be a different matter. It's hard to explain, but I feel that during puberty, all the people around you you know well and aren't attracted to get sorted into the "family" category, regardless of bloodline. At least that's how it works for me.)

[Sarco_Phage]

Oh, I agree. If you're looking to settle down, you would need someone you can be comfortable with no matter where. If you're ever embarrassed to take your SO somewhere, then there's a problem.


*gets popcorn, waits for Serp*

Anyone want some? :smallwink:

I can switch to full-on frat boy mode and trumpet the virtues and actuality of the Friend Zone, if you so wish.

[ForzaFiori]

Being friends with someone you intend to be romantic with before being romantic with them makes things incredibly awkward. For the 1st few dates you go on with someone, people generally act (a little) more ... polite then they do in comparison to when they are hanging out with their friends.

IOW, I agree with Gaius Marius. I would never want to be friends with someone I was going to date BEFORE hand. Now, if you start dating and you become (regular) friends, that's normal/great. I for one would never date someone I've known since 3rd Grade. An acquaintance? Yes.

The whole point of a date is to get to know someone to see if you're interested in becoming intimate/romantic with someone (and eventually marriage or something).

No?

If your friends with someone before you start dating, it doesn't mean your first dates are weird, it means you get to skip the first 3 or 4 awkward dates because you don't need to get to know them. Instead of starting a relationship, and then seeing if your compatible, you find out if you can stand the person, and then try to take it the next step further. I would feel extraordinarily awkward asking someone I barely knew out on a date, and the whole thing would probably go horribly.

Granted, thats DATING. like an actual relationship. If your looking to just date around then yea, they should be acquaintances because the whole point is finding out who you like/want to know better.

[Keld Denar]

on ages:

I've heard that half the elder plus 7 (or younger minus 7 times 2) is a pretty good guideline. Obviously, there are exceptions, but for the most part this seems to work decently. As you get older, your "span" of potential partners widens as "life experience" more or less plateaus out. The older you are, the more likely that people in your relative age range are compatable with you, and the wider your age range thusly becomes.

On the low end, this means that a 20 year old shouldn't date much younger than 17 (and a 17 year old much older than 20), since past that range, the likelyhood of having common life experiences and intentions from the relationship. On the other side, a 50 year old shouldn't date much younger than someone in their early 30s, as their goals and intentions are not very likely to align with someone in their 20s.

[Coidzor]

There's a difference between creepy and odd. If it's not a power play then I don't find it creepy. When we're born is largely not decided by us, and it seems unfair to be unhappy because the time when we were born is inconvenient.

Is it odd? Yeah. That's why I recommend being friends for now to make sure a relationship would work. But Coidzor, you yourself are quite odd and I don't consider you creepy at all!

Well, thank you, but I've encountered many, many people online and offline who believe odd=creepy, oftentimes in far too personal a way. Enough that i can't really discount them very easily. I just find the situation more risky and difficult to work, but can definitely see how, say, the parents and other busybodies IRL could see it as scandalous or worse.

Of course, my only real direct experience with that kind of thing was my best friend's 16 year old ex cheating on him and then leaving him for with my 40 year old next door neighbour(or rather, the man who lived in the other half of the duplex I was in) who was a professor at the local community college. Most people had quite visceral reactions to it.

So there's certainly a real chance that I'd be over-estimating the level of objection people might reach.


I have. It worked perfectly fine. The boys you drink with are not the boys you sleep with.

There is a certain bit of don't **** where you eat/drink/sleep/live that can come into play.

[AtlanteanTroll]

At this point, I think I would consider it family more than friends. Anyone I knew before hitting puberty that I wasn't interested in during puberty will be along the lines of a sibling to me. In which case, indeed, nothing will happen. But that's not a "friend zone", it's a "family zone" at this point, and it only applies to people I knew before and through puberty.
(I believe that someone I knew before puberty, then didn't see at all for years, then saw again now, might be a different matter. It's hard to explain, but I feel that during puberty, all the people around you you know well and aren't attracted to get sorted into the "family" category, regardless of bloodline. At least that's how it works for me.)
*shrugs* They're still in the friend zone, they're just deeper entrenched then others. On that note, I have no girls in my friend zone WHO DON'T fall into this category. In fact, I'd say I have 6 friends total who don't fall into this category.


Granted, thats DATING. like an actual relationship. If your looking to just date around then yea, they should be acquaintances because the whole point is finding out who you like/want to know better.
The whole point is too look around [/opinion]. I like Glass Mouse's Option #3. If I found someone in my Friend Zone to be attractive, I would've done something about it before letting them that far in.

[Lissou]

Of course, my only real direct experience with that kind of thing was my best friend's 16 year old ex cheating on him and then leaving him for with my 40 year old next door neighbour(or rather, the man who lived in the other half of the duplex I was in) who was a professor at the local community college. Most people had quite visceral reactions to it.

So there's certainly a real chance that I'd be over-estimating the level of objection people might reach.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised! The case you're talking about seems made for people to disapprove: the 16 year old cheated, the adult is over twice the age (and the younger partner is only 16, regardless of whether it's legal where you live it makes a lot of people more awkward about things like that), and the 40 year old is a teacher (which, even if he wasn't the 16 year old's teacher, can give people bad vibes of power abuse, etc).

One of these things would probably be enough for the general opinion to be negative. But all of them? No joke people have a visceral reaction to it.

[ZombyWoof]

Being friends with someone you intend to be romantic with before being romantic with them makes things incredibly awkward. For the 1st few dates you go on with someone, people generally act (a little) more ... polite then they do in comparison to when they are hanging out with their friends.
What on the bloody WHAT?

No. Being friends with someone you intend to be romantic with won't make things more awkward. It'll make things substantially less awkward because you won't be in the "So what kind of music/movies do you like?" *shyly looks away*



IOW, I agree with Gaius Marius. I would never want to be friends with someone I was going to date BEFORE hand. Now, if you start dating and you become (regular) friends, that's normal/great. I for one would never date someone I've known since 3rd Grade. An acquaintance? Yes.
We're not talking someone he's known since 3rd grade, so that particular example is entirely invalid. Also your logic and reasoning is absurd.



The whole point of a date is to get to know someone to see if you're interested in becoming intimate/romantic with someone (and eventually marriage or something).

No?
No. The point of a date is to see if you enjoy spending time with someone.

[Lissou]

OR sometimes a date is just spending time with someone because you know you'll enjoy it and want to do it. It doesn't have to be some sort of test. Dating when you're in an established relationship usually is just enjoying each other's company. And I would say a friendship can be an established relationship too.
In this case, you just skip the whole "will I have a good time?" and "will I like them" first few dates, because you already know the answer to both is "yes".

[Aedilred]

The thing about the "friend zone" is that, although the theory is a load of nonsense (in my experience and observation, anyway), persistent belief in it can tend to create something akin to one.

I think there's an erroneous perception of mutual exclusivity between "friend" and "boy/girlfriend" whereas in fact the latter should probably be a subset of the first and if not there's likely something wrong.

I think there's also the case that a gentleman expends all his romantic ardour very obviously in pursuit of a lady, who doesn't for whatever reason want a relationship with him but (1) finds him interesting enough company or (2) wants to let him down gently, possibly in a disinguenous and cowardly way, and says "I think we should just be friends". This leads to a conflation of "friend" with "romantic failure" whereas in fact the two are distinct and possibly unrelated entities.

What's more, if "being friends" under any circumstances is construed as an ultimate failure romantically, it means you stop trying, and thus the failure to escalate from friend to partner becomes self-fulfilling.

There's also the problem of "relationship falls apart" -> "can't be friends" which in the overanalysis of grief leads to the balmy conclusion that not only is it impossible to be friends with someone you've had a relationship with (while this is often the case, it isn't always) but that it is in fact impossible to be friends with someone you want or might have a relationship with too.


Now, I do think one has to be careful about dating very close friends, because if it doesn't work- and social compatibility is not always an indicator of romantic compatibility- it's likely going to ruin the friendship too, which is a big risk to take. However it doesn't mean that it's impossible or that it shouldn't be attempted, either.

[term1nally s1ck]

@Serpentine.

My apologies. You were right, there are a LOT of people out there who seem to believe in this friend zone as a concept in a completely wrong way.



There is NO SUCH THING as a friend zone. What there IS is what happens when you treat a person you're becoming friends with in a way that eliminates any attraction there may have been, and that is entirely your own fault. If you want to have a relationship with someone, treat them as such. If you treat them like your mother, you'll not get far.

[ZombyWoof]

+1 Mr. Sick

Wait no. Only to that first part.

[Innis Cabal]

:smallconfused:

I know I don't treat anyone like I treat my mother and I've still ended up being shot down before because they don't want to pursue a romantic relationship with me. That's the Friend's Zone, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. There are just some people who no matter what you do won't view you as a romantic interest ever. This could be because of a good number of reasons, but the fact of the matter is still that it exists for the indiviudal who is unable to have the level of relationship they want with the person.

It doesn't matter that you can be friends with the person you love and are romantically involved with, in fact it's sort of required that you be friendly -with- said person or you're not going to be involved with them for very long. The thing is there are more then several kinds of relationships and if you are pursuing one while the recipient of said relationship change doesn't want it, it isn't going to happen. It may never happen.

And it is their fault, but it's not a negative thing just as much as it's not a positive thing. It's just something you'll have to get over. At the end of the day you have to ask yourself if you can still be involved with the person without a change in your current relationship.

[Sarco_Phage]

:smallconfused:

I know I don't treat anyone like I treat my mother and I've still ended up being shot down before because they don't want to pursue a romantic relationship with me. That's the Friend's Zone, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.

No, that's "the other person not considering you relationship material because you lack the qualities they seek".

[Innis Cabal]

No, that's "the other person not considering you relationship material because you lack the qualities they seek".

That is...exactly what I said only with reasons for said lack of desire. It's not at all different in any way. It doesn't matter -WHY- they don't want to pursue the relationship with you, in the end all that matters is that they don't and -you- have feelings for them.

But thank you for inadvertently reinforcing my point.

[term1nally s1ck]

Just because someone doesn't find you attractive at that time, doesn't mean they never will. People change.

If you're unwilling to accept this, then your actions will express that, and you will not behave in a way that could ever change their mind. Your behaviour towards that person is part of the reason they will no feel attracted to you, not some box they threw you in at first meeting.

And the mother comment is aimed at the large majority of men, who tend to become this pathetic yes-man to a girl they're interested in, giving in to her every whim and never going too much against her.

Other behaviours that are likely to ensure that she will never change her mind include trying to force the issue, expecting a return on favours and help given (false altruism), and consistently behaving in a way directly contradictory to how she wishes to live her life.

[Coidzor]

Just because someone doesn't find you attractive at that time, doesn't mean they never will. People change.

Still, generally unlikely that someone will make an overture to someone they've already shot down or that someone who was shot down would expect anything but negativity for trying again later without receiving an overture.

[ZombyWoof]

And suddenly my eyes are opened.

This is remarkably silly. If she likes you, she likes you. She's not going to suddenly no longer be attracted to you because you're hanging out together, and her opinion on you isn't static and unchanging. Both of those are frigging stupid to believe.

If you don't want to hang out with the person you want an extended relationship (read: more than casual sex) with, then you shouldn't be with that person. I'm not saying that you have to be "the bestest of best buddies and share everything" but at least knowing you can hang around that person and NOT engage in sex is kind of important.

[Innis Cabal]

Just because someone doesn't find you attractive at that time, doesn't mean they never will. People change.

I don't recall seeing anyone state that the Friend Zone was permanent. I certainly didn't insiuniate that what so ever. In fact, I agreed that it was a personal issue that the person in the position has to resolve and not in fact the fault of the other person involved.


If you're unwilling to accept this, then your actions will express that, and you will not behave in a way that could ever change their mind. Your behaviour towards that person is part of the reason they will no feel attracted to you, not some box they threw you in at first meeting.

That's true. But has no baring on whether the "Friend Zone" does or does not exist on a personal level.


And the mother comment is aimed at the large majority of men, who tend to become this pathetic yes-man to a girl they're interested in, giving in to her every whim and never going too much against her.

Generalizing things isn't support against or for a claim. Just because some men do it doesn't mean all men do it. Or that it actually has any baring on the discussion of the Friend Zone.


Other behaviours that are likely to ensure that she will never change her mind include trying to force the issue, expecting a return on favours and help given (false altruism), and consistently behaving in a way directly contradictory to how she wishes to live her life.

Once again, this would only seek to reinforce there is some place you are in a relationship if they deny taking it to a romantic level. And that you can keep yourself there by your own actions. Which no one is arguing against I don't think.


Still, generally unlikely that someone will make an overture to someone they've already shot down or that someone who was shot down would expect anything but negativity for trying again later without receiving an overture

There is of course also this.


And suddenly my eyes are opened.

This is remarkably silly. If she likes you, she likes you. She's not going to suddenly no longer be attracted to you because you're hanging out together, and her opinion on you isn't static and unchanging. Both of those are frigging stupid to believe.

If you don't want to hang out with the person you want an extended relationship (read: more than casual sex) with, then you shouldn't be with that person. I'm not saying that you have to be "the bestest of best buddies and share everything" but at least knowing you can hang around that person and NOT engage in sex is kind of important.

And knowing is half the battle. G.I Joe!

[Coidzor]

There's definitely something to be said for not letting someone you're interested in get complacent with where and what you are to them and getting archetyped as something you're not or something you do not want them thinking of you as.

[Sarco_Phage]

That is...exactly what I said only with reasons for said lack of desire. It's not at all different in any way. It doesn't matter -WHY- they don't want to pursue the relationship with you, in the end all that matters is that they don't and -you- have feelings for them.

But thank you for inadvertently reinforcing my point.

Nah, all I'm saying is assigning this thing an arbitrary "zone" is silly and non-constructive. Else you'd be able to impute everything to the friend zone, where otherwise the problems could be other things:

For example, someone not wishing to date you because you're an ass with personality problems: Friend Zoned!

Someone not wishing to date you because you're poor: Friend Zoned!

Someone not wishing to date you because you're ugly, regardless of other qualities you may have: Friend Zoned!

The friend zone is a myth resorted to by the men who can't get a date for some reason and would rather impute it to the fault of the people they are trying to date, rather than attempting to fix their own problems and, I dunno, becoming dateable.

[Innis Cabal]

Nah, all I'm saying is assigning this thing an arbitrary "zone" is silly and non-constructive. Else you'd be able to impute everything to the friend zone, where otherwise the problems could be other things:

For example, someone not wishing to date you because you're an ass with personality problems: Friend Zoned!

Someone not wishing to date you because you're poor: Friend Zoned!

Someone not wishing to date you because you're ugly, regardless of other qualities you may have: Friend Zoned!

The friend zone is a myth resorted to by the men who can't get a date for some reason and would rather impute it to the fault of the people they are trying to date, rather than attempting to fix their own problems and, I dunno, becoming dateable.

:smallconfused:

But...that's exactly how it works. I also think it's a little more then presumptuous to think it's only -men- that have this "Friend Zone" thing. I also think saying that they're only in the friend zone because they have problems they need to "fix" is...I don't quite know what word to use here but it's flat our wrong regardless of the word that is probably better in it's place. It implies that the only reason someone doesn't find you a suitable partner is -your- fault when that isn't always the case or even often the case.

There are some things you cannot change. The person doesn't find you physically attractive. You can't change that without a lot of surgery and then the problem is if she -does- want to be with you after said change...is she only interested in you physically and is that a relationship you want to build on? Only liking someone for a physical reason is going to lead to problems regardless. People age, and if the only thing keeping you in a relationship is that you were "Hot" when you were 20 isn't going to keep the relationship going when you're 50 and your body is starting to lose it's vitality. Love on Physical Attraction alone is a shallow reason for a relationship, and that's not just an opinion. You need more then being "Hot" to keep a romantic relationship going.

What about personality? So she doesn't find your personality charming enough to be in a romantic relationship. You should just up and change it? Change what you like to please her, change everything about yourself to pursue this woman just because you've got a chance now? The thing is, the person she likes isn't you. It is someone you want to be so she'll like you. Is that a good enough base for a relationship? Is it really a relationship you want?

Frankly, the idea that you have to -change- yourself for someone to like you is...insulting and patently wrong. If someone doesn't like you for who you are. They are not worth it. Let me repeat that real big for everyone her.

IF SOMEONE DOESN'T LIKE YOU FOR WHO YOU ARE. THEY ARE NOT WORTH IT.

The Friend Zone isn't some Co-Terminus Existence you get shunted to just because someone doesn't want to be in a romantic relationship. It's a place you put yourself after your shot down. And it's fine to be upset about not getting the girl you want. Or the guy you want. Or the anyone you want. It's fine and honestly healthy to be a little bummed. The thing is, at the end of the day you need to bring yourself -out- of that "zone." Not by -CHANGING- yourself, god no. But by -ACCEPTING- that what you want isn't going to work and enjoy the fact that you're friends. The way to get out of the Friend Zone. For anyone. Is to just accept that you're friends. It's really that simple.

[Glass Mouse]

Just because someone doesn't find you attractive at that time, doesn't mean they never will. People change.

I twitch a little whenever I see something like this, and eventhough it probably wasn't your intention, I still feel the need to clarify:

If someone has explicitly stated that they aren't interested, don't pursue them further!

Don't expect their feelings to change, don't act as if they might. Because yes, the possibility is there, but it's small. A much, much, MUCH bigger possibility is the person starting to avoid you (or, if you're lucky, get mad) because you obviously don't respect their feelings.

Sorry. Pet peeve of mine.

[Sarco_Phage]

:smallconfused:
IF SOMEONE DOESN'T LIKE YOU FOR WHO YOU ARE. THEY ARE NOT WORTH IT.

No, see, this saturday morning cartoon mindset is a horrid example of what's wrong with the world today, and may well perpetuate the myth of twoo wuv that gets so many kids rushing headlong into relationships they're not prepared for.

Relationships are a job, not some happy-happy-joy-joy funtime where you're not expected to do any work. If someone doesn't like you for the way you are, maybe you should consider the fact that the way you are just isn't likable.

[Glass Mouse]

If someone doesn't like you for the way you are, maybe you should consider the fact that the way you are just isn't likable.

Ehhh.

If there's a pattern of people not liking you for who you are, you might want to consider this. If one person doesn't? Meh, incompabilities happen.

[Sarco_Phage]

Ehhh.

If there's a pattern of people not liking you for who you are, you might want to consider this. If one person doesn't? Meh, incompabilities happen.

Right, consider my comment amended.

[term1nally s1ck]

I did try and clarify that later on, but it was kind of vague.

Basically, you don't just get put into the 'just friends' box on first meeting, and never can get out of it. People are more complicated than that.


As for Innis, nobody is suggesting that you should significantly change who you are for anyone. However, holding back on doing things you should and want to do for fear of coming across the wrong way, or out of some odd idea of it being inappropriate, is very very counterproductive. Ceding every point and obeying every whim of someone because that's how you've been told to treat women, is NOT being true to yourself. And changing that is not changing you, it's stopping holding yourself back.

And compromise is the foundation of a good relationship. You WILL have to make a couple of sacrifices. You will have to subtly change.

[Innis Cabal]

No, see, this saturday morning cartoon mindset is a horrid example of what's wrong with the world today, and may well perpetuate the myth of twoo wuv that gets so many kids rushing headlong into relationships they're not prepared for.

Relationships are a job, not some happy-happy-joy-joy funtime where you're not expected to do any work. If someone doesn't like you for the way you are, maybe you should consider the fact that the way you are just isn't likable.

I know you've probably not seen some of my posts here, but I think most of the ones who know me will tell you I don't believe in True Love and agree that a relationship is work and doesn't just happen. You need to put effort into it. In fact, plenty of people who have seen many of my posts will tell you I don't in fact believe in love at all. But that's a topic for a different discussion and time. In fact, I said that in my nice little rant there, that basing a relationship on one or two things and thinking it'll work out is doomed to fail.

But no, it's not the mindset that if someone doesn't love you they're not worth the time devoted to pursuing them is not in fact the reason people rush off into relationships. It's the fact that people see relationships in TV or glamorized by celebrities. I'd actually like you to point out...anywhere I ever implied that any of what you said was the case.

This isn't some happy go lucky love fest statement here. I don't ascribe to that, once again plenty of people here can back me up on that, and I never will. That doesn't change the fact that if someone doesn't love you, then it's a waste of time trying to -get- them to love you.

And what about the times it isn't you? Believe it or not sometimes someone just isn't going to be into you for every reason out there. What then? What can you change...and should you change just to suit one person? Is it worth it to compromise yourself just to be in "love"? I would say no. If someone doesn't love you for who -you- are then they are not worth it. There are plenty of other people out there that will love you for who you are that are just as great as the one you want. And in the long run, they're the ones worth pursuing. They love you for who you are. Not what you'll be when you change to suit them.




As for Innis, nobody is suggesting that you should significantly change who you are for anyone. However, holding back on doing things you should and want to do for fear of coming across the wrong way, or out of some odd idea of it being inappropriate, is very very counterproductive. Ceding every point and obeying every whim of someone because that's how you've been told to treat women, is NOT being true to yourself. And changing that is not changing you, it's stopping holding yourself back.

Actually...yes.


If someone doesn't like you for the way you are, maybe you should consider the fact that the way you are just isn't likable.

That line? The one right there? That's exactly what's being said. Change yourself. Your personality isn't likeable so fix it so they like you.

But I agree with the rest and that's exactly what I was saying. Compromising who you are doesn't mean compromise with the person you are in a relationship. You shouldn't compromise with someone who you aren't in a relationship with so you -can- be in a relationship with them. That's not being true to yourself either. When two people who are in a relationship together compromise over something, it's mutual. When -you- change something about yourself just so this person will be in a relationship with you, it's not mutual. It's you changing for them just to be with them.


And compromise is the foundation of a good relationship. You WILL have to make a couple of sacrifices. You will have to subtly change.

I think you'll find that not only do I agree with this, but I've stated such before, and just now in both my posts.

[Glass Mouse]

Basically, you don't just get put into the 'just friends' box on first meeting, and never can get out of it. People are more complicated than that.

Obviously not. You don't enter the "friend" box/zone until immediately after the third date :smalltongue:

More seriously, I agree. People are complicated, and that's part of the charm.

[term1nally s1ck]

3rd date?

How very....traditional. :smalltongue:

[ZombyWoof]

Well you get in SOME sort of box, amirite? :smallwink:

[Innis Cabal]

A nice pine one after 80 or so odd years is the only one you can be certain of. :smalltongue:

[Sarco_Phage]

And what about the times it isn't you? Believe it or not sometimes someone just isn't going to be into you for every reason out there. What then? What can you change...and should you change just to suit one person? Is it worth it to compromise yourself just to be in "love"? I would say no. If someone doesn't love you for who -you- are then they are not worth it. There are plenty of other people out there that will love you for who you are that are just as great as the one you want. And in the long run, they're the ones worth pursuing. They love you for who you are. Not what you'll be when you change to suit them.

Yeah, I didn't read your whole post, just singled out the giant text that struck me as rather silly.

Here's the thing, though. Loving someone for "who they are" isn't a quality that has some kind of intrinsic worth to it. Destructive relationships can be held up by two people loving each other for who they are. A battered wife or husband might stay with their partner because they think their partner is flawed, sure, but there's something worth loving in there.

And frankly, while you shouldn't change just to suit one person, you should definitely change if you don't suit anyone you've approached (which is the root cause of the initial misunderstanding).

Consider why you've never been approached in the first place, maybe. Again, you might just not be someone considered dateable. And to say that this is everyone else's problem and not yours is a wee bit shortsighted.

Now, this might not be what you're talking about. I have no clue.

Edit: I JUST REALIZED WE'RE TALKING HYPOTHETICALS, RATHER THAN YOUR REAL LIFE SITUATION. I APOLOGIZE.

[Innis Cabal]

Yeah, I didn't read your whole post, just singled out the giant text that struck me as rather silly.

While I'll defend your right to believe that, I think you're being silly to accept that it's silly. And I'll explain why.


Here's the thing, though. Loving someone for "who they are" isn't a quality that has some kind of intrinsic worth to it. Destructive relationships can be held up by two people loving each other for who they are. A battered wife or husband might stay with their partner because they think their partner is flawed, sure, but there's something worth loving in there.

Under that reasoning loving someone at all has no quality of intrinsic worth. Just because something can go wrong doesn't mean it has lost it's value. So what if domestic abuse can happen just because you love someone for who they are. The thing is, it's more likely to happen in relationships where there isn't mutual respect or if someone dislikes the person they're with for what ever reason.

That's a fallacy though I'm not exactly sure which one it is. Abuse isn't love, and people who abuse others actually don't -love- them. I know that for a fact, coming from an abusive home and several abusive relationships. They may think they love you, and you actually may love them. But at the end of the day people who love each other don't beat people they "love" or hurt them purposefully for any reason. I amend that statement with "on purpose" because it's possible to hurt people without knowing it. But that's -not- the same thing.


And frankly, while you shouldn't change just to suit one person, you should definitely change if you don't suit anyone you've approached (which is the root cause of the initial misunderstanding).

That isn't what's up for discussion here. And it hasn't ever been. That only seeks to shift the coversation to another avenue of discussion. We're talking about the Friend Zone, that's not "everyone you meet". Ya, if everyone thinks your a disgusting slob with no redeeming quality then maybe it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate yourself. But again, not what's being discussed here.


Consider why you've never been approached in the first place, maybe. Again, you might just not be someone considered dateable. And to say that this is everyone else's problem and not yours is a wee bit shortsighted.

But that's not every case. I know for a fact I was in the friend zone with two friends because they didn't like guys. I loved them, honest and true but they'd never be able to return that. Just because I didn't approach doesn't mean there is some fault with -me- or people in similar situations.


Now, this might not be what you're talking about. I have no clue.

Not sure, your changing your position and trying to change things around to make your point stick, I'm talking about the Friend Zone and how it relates to people one on one on a case by case example. I don't work in generalizations.

[AtlanteanTroll]

What on the bloody WHAT?
On a stick?


No. Being friends with someone you intend to be romantic with won't make things more awkward.
Depends on how long you've known them.


It'll make things substantially less awkward because you won't be in the "So what kind of music/movies do you like?" *shyly looks away*
I fail to see how that belittles the situation. I think people are inferring different things on to the word "friend" then I am. You already LOVE your friends, just not in a romantic way. If you had wanted it to be in a romantic way, you should've made a move before they found your way into your circle.



We're not talking someone he's known since 3rd grade, so that particular example is entirely invalid. Also your logic and reasoning is absurd.
You're right. We're talking about an acquaintance. Someone, NOT in his Friend Zone. My point stands.


No. The point of a date is to see if you enjoy spending time with someone.
Your entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. And guess what, we're saying the same thing. You need to get to know someone while you see if you enjoy spending time with them.

I know very few people who aren't in each-others Friend Zone when they start dating. Have they talked? Sure. Lots maybe. That doesn't mean they're friends.

EDIT: And I've been completely been misunderstanding what by people mean by Friend Zone here. Screw colloquialisms. Saying it doesn't exist though ... That sounds absurd.

[Coidzor]

^: Well, it's less a matter of opinion and more a matter of differences in actual approach and usage of dates.

I mean, couples that are together mostly just seem to use them as stress relief or as a form of foreplay since they've already figured out whether or not they enjoy spending time with someone or want to be in a relationship with one another.


The friend zone is a myth resorted to by the men who can't get a date for some reason and would rather impute it to the fault of the people they are trying to date, rather than attempting to fix their own problems and, I dunno, becoming dateable.

Part of it is that generally it's a bit difficult to find out what particular problem a friend has with one's self in order to have it as an option to work on if it was not already a known quantity...

So in the interest of politeness, many individuals refuse to give a reason or default to a tired old line about not wanting to ruin the friendship and from there the mythos is formed.

[term1nally s1ck]

When discussing something you have admitted is an amalgam of every reason someone might not wish to date you, we are dealing in generalisations. There's no way around that without using a specific case.

[Sarco_Phage]

Not sure, your changing your position and trying to change things around to make your point stick, I'm talking about the Friend Zone and how it relates to people one on one on a case by case example. I don't work in generalizations.

Yes, I realized that I'd missed the actual meat of your point. Yet since what you're calling the "Friend Zone" doesn't match the myth of what most people believe is the Friend Zone, why call it the Friend Zone? :smallwink:

[Innis Cabal]

When discussing something you have admitted is an amalgam of every reason someone might not wish to date you, we are dealing in generalisations. There's no way around that without using a specific case.

I have admitted in the examples given by those working in the generalization that that's more or less what it is on the basic point. You'll note I've singled out specific cases -from- the generalizations of people arguing against it.


Yes, I realized that I'd missed the actual meat of your point. Yet since what you're calling the "Friend Zone" doesn't match the myth of what most people believe is the Friend Zone, why call it the Friend Zone? :smallwink:

Because it's the commonly accepted term and conveys the meaning that needs to be conveyed. I'm arguing that such a position exists, not the semantics involved.

Where I given a choice, I'd just say "That's relationships" and be done with it. But then again, I'm not the one denying that that is how relationships can work out.

[Lissou]

That is...exactly what I said only with reasons for said lack of desire. It's not at all different in any way. It doesn't matter -WHY- they don't want to pursue the relationship with you, in the end all that matters is that they don't and -you- have feelings for them.


I don't recall seeing anyone state that the Friend Zone was permanent.

I don't think you have the same idea of what the "friend zone" is as most people who mention it. Let me explain how it goes for these people:

They think if they ever become friends with a woman (it's usually straight men who talk about a friend zone, so I'm using that for the sake of practicality in this example), then they will be sorted in a dreaded "friend zone" which:

a) is inescapable (as in, YES, they do think it's permanent)
b) ruins their chances of ever having a relationship with that woman (as in, if only they hadn't entered the "friend zone", they'd have a real shot, but now they don't anymore).

Your idea of it is closer to what the people who say "the friend zone is a myth" believe. That is, if you're rejected, it's due to who you are and not to being friends, and you can go from being friends to being in a relationship.


Still, generally unlikely that someone will make an overture to someone they've already shot down or that someone who was shot down would expect anything but negativity for trying again later without receiving an overture.

Incidentally, that's what happened with my current boyfriend of a year. He was interested in me, I told him I wasn't interested and I'd rather be friends. We became friends, and after a few months of getting to know him I fell in love with him. I told him I was interested in him now, in case he hadn't changed his mind (he didn't hit on me ever again while being friends. Surely if he had I would have backed off from the friendship before getting attached).
He still was, and we started a relationship, and we've been together close to a year. So it happens.

Still if you do get "just friended", don't assume you're still going to get together. I got a chance to get to know him and to become interested in him because he left me alone and behaved with me like a friend and not like someone who was interested in me. If you become friends, don't be friend with the idea that it's a "in the meantime" kind of thing, be friends because you want to be friends too.

[Sarco_Phage]

Because it's the commonly accepted term and conveys the meaning that needs to be conveyed. I'm arguing that such a position exists, not the semantics involved.

Where I given a choice, I'd just say "That's relationships" and be done with it. But then again, I'm not the one denying that that is how relationships can work out.

And you're arguing specifics... by putting them under a blanket general label? Isn't that a bit counter-productive?

[Coidzor]

Still if you do get "just friended", don't assume you're still going to get together. I got a chance to get to know him and to become interested in him because he left me alone and behaved with me like a friend and not like someone who was interested in me. If you become friends, don't be friend with the idea that it's a "in the meantime" kind of thing, be friends because you want to be friends too.

I find the most appropriate response is to just start looking to see if there's any other interesting individuals around or to make preparations for approaching the next interesting individual rather than giving the person a second thought or really giving them the dignity of something that could be said to be pining for something that's really no skin off of one's nose. Their loss, after all, if they change their mind and one has already formed a relationship with someone else that didn't reject them immediately.

It's a possibility, yeah, but not one that it's healthy to treat as a realistic one. Like, say, along the lines of a lay person getting to watch a pig be shot out of a pneumatic cannon.

[Innis Cabal]

I don't think you have the same idea of what the "friend zone" is as most people who mention it. Let me explain how it goes for these people:

They think if they ever become friends with a woman (it's usually straight men who talk about a friend zone, so I'm using that for the sake of practicality in this example), then they will be sorted in a dreaded "friend zone" which:

a) is inescapable (as in, YES, they do think it's permanent)
b) ruins their chances of ever having a relationship with that woman (as in, if only they hadn't entered the "friend zone", they'd have a real shot, but now they don't anymore).

Your idea of it is closer to what the people who say "the friend zone is a myth" believe. That is, if you're rejected, it's due to who you are and not to being friends, and you can go from being friends to being in a relationship.

I see what you're saying and it may be fairly accurate to say that what I'm defining, rightly, as the "Friend Zone" isn't what most people think of. I still acknowledge that such a position exists in relationships. And that it effects everyone not just met like some have said. And it's not a negative thing to feel you've been shunt into. It's just life.


And you're arguing specifics... by putting them under a blanket general label? Isn't that a bit counter-productive?

Unless you have some other way of making your points when someone tries to just use generalizations in a situation where there really are none...it may be but frankly it's the only way. Would it help if I put "" around the word "Friend Zone" so everyone knows I'm using it ironically?

[Coidzor]

And it's not a negative thing to feel you've been shunt into. It's just life.

Um... How is it not negative if you actually really liked said person and have been found to not meet their standards? I mean, sure, most people who have only gotten, say, interested in someone rather than something more severe haven't really been effected, but someone who's got it bad? Seems like it'd be a rather unpleasant metaphysical sensation to say the least.

[Innis Cabal]

I didn't mean it's not a negative as in it's a downer to yourself esteem. Perhaps Negative was the wrong word, working off no sleep is not great for coming up with explanations on the spot.

Just because it's something bad for you and how you feel doesn't make it wrong that it happens. How's that?

[Lissou]

I find the most appropriate response is to just start looking to see if there's any other interesting individuals around or to make preparations for approaching the next interesting individual rather than giving the person a second thought or really giving them the dignity of something that could be said to be pining for something that's really no skin off of one's nose. Their loss, after all, if they change their mind and one has already formed a relationship with someone else that didn't reject them immediately.

Mmh, would I be mistaken if I said you disapprove of that kind of situation? :P
Quite honestly, I know very well than I ran the risk of being rejected. Still, if he had rejected me after getting to know me, it would only mean I was right to reject him to begin with. I mean, it would mean he liked me before he knew me, but not anymore when he did no me. The relationship would have never worked if he had started disliking me the second he got to know me.

As for "someone who didn't reject them immediately", well I barely knew the guy. I'm not going to start a relationship with someone I'm not in love with.

I've been rejected, too (before my current boyfriend, I had always been the one asking guys out), but I never "immediately started looking for someone else". Really, I have never "looked" for someone. Just fallen in love with someone and then pursued a relationship. A relationship for the sake of a relationship (and not because I want to be with this specific person) is of no use to me.

I guess we have different views on dating. Oh well, yours seems more common than mine as far as I know.

[Coidzor]

^: Well, I might be a little bit sore still from finding out I was actually in a competition of all things to see which one of us the last girl I was interested in would end up going out with.

So I'm probably just a little bit more strong in my stances and the language I use to communicate them as a result of how utterly bizarre that scenario was when I found out about it after I, of course, lost horribly due to being the only one unaware of the game.


I didn't mean it's not a negative as in it's a downer to yourself esteem. Perhaps Negative was the wrong word, working off no sleep is not great for coming up with explanations on the spot.

Just because it's something bad for you and how you feel doesn't make it wrong that it happens. How's that?

Oh, ok, yeah, I think I grok you now. I definitely agree that it's not immoral or anything.

[DeadManSleeping]

Funny observation on "friend zoning". I have a friend who explicitly refuses to date anyone she hangs out with for another reason. She likes to totally leave behind anyone she breaks up with, so, yeah.

Of course, she totally broke this rule with her current boy of about 2 years now, so...yeah.

[Coidzor]

Funny observation on "friend zoning". I have a friend who explicitly refuses to date anyone she hangs out with for another reason. She likes to totally leave behind anyone she breaks up with, so, yeah.

Of course, she totally broke this rule with her current boy of about 2 years now, so...yeah.

Funny thing about little rules of convenience like that. Practically made to be broken once you find someone worth breaking for 'em.

[Syka]

Friendzone: It exists insofar as I have people who are friends. Said friends in the friendzone are not immune to attraction. So...yeah, I guess you could say it exists. Most women I know are far more complex than "You are my friend therefore I am not attracted to you." More often it is, "I am not attracted to you therefore we shall be friends rather than lovers." Easily confused.


That age difference: As a formerly 17 year old girl, and now an almost 24 year old woman, creepy. Sorry, just is. Unless for some reason your lives match up as to your current stages, it's creepy to me. But frankly, you are probably at two very different stages.

I knew a couple where the guy was 19 and the woman 26 (I think). It worked, because they were both at similar stages- working their way through college and had a significant period of time in which they had been living independently. The reason for their break up was completely unrelated. The couple that was 22 (him) and 16/17 (her)? Definitely fell apart. But he'd been living independently and working full time for a while, and was well through college. She was still in her junior year of high school and all that comes with it.

Heck, me and Oz are even an odd situation. I'm getting my MBA and ready to enter the career world, and he is just now trying to go for his bachelors and has a lot of work experience/independent living under his belt. I think the only reason we work is because we were at similar places when we got together and have grown as a partnership.




As a general rule of thumb, trying to teach a significant other something is very difficult, but there have been plenty of relationships in which one partner is a motivating force to get things done. Just ask Syka, she mentioned that she had to push Oz to get his academic act together iirc, and Oz has responded very well. And they're quite happy.

Pretty much. It was a lot of work for him to understand the importance of academics, but I didn't nag him. I'd just try to help push him in the right direction and eventually he caught on.

He's also done the same for me, more often when it comes to jobs. He helped motivate me during my first round of job searches after my undergrad program and he's currently being my cheerleader/life coach as I begin my second round (for an actual career). When I start freaking out about how I feel intimidated by everything, he pulls me upright and tells me I can do it and prods me until I feel better.


Yeah, wallowing when stuff goes wrong might not be good, but she just might not know any other coping methods. Perhaps talk to her and work through some more constructive methods of dealing with stress? To this point, she may not have NEEDED any other methods.



ION, I won't be around for a while. I'm applying for an internship, am going to be applying for some jobs (now that I have a basic cover letter and completed resume), and there was a death in (what counts as) my family. Plus end of term, etc etc. So on top of normal stuff, lotta stressors. So might not be around too frequently.

[Lissou]

^: Well, I might be a little bit sore still from finding out I was actually in a competition of all things to see which one of us the last girl I was interested in would end up going out with.

So I'm probably just a little bit more strong in my stances and the language I use to communicate them as a result of how utterly bizarre that scenario was when I found out about it after I, of course, lost horribly due to being the only one unaware of the game.

Ugh, I'm sorry to hear that.
It certainly wasn't a game or a trick in my case. I wasn't interested in a relationship with him when I rejected him, and as I got to know him I changed my mind. Certainly wasn't trying to test him in any way, I just haven't ever been interested in people I have just met recently. And if he had kept asking it would have been a turn-off, but that in no way means I went all "I'll date him provided he can wait for me for two months and not hit on me a single time!" or any such crap. Really, I was the most surprised when I developed feelings for him.

[ZombyWoof]

Funny thing about little rules of convenience like that. Practically made to be broken once you find someone worth breaking for 'em.
Another funny things about little rules like that: they lost me my best friend because I decided I wasn't going to date friends, and she decided she didn't want to spend so much time around me because it hurt that I wasn't into her.

[AtlanteanTroll]

^: Well, it's less a matter of opinion and more a matter of differences in actual approach and usage of dates.

I mean, couples that are together mostly just seem to use them as stress relief or as a form of foreplay since they've already figured out whether or not they enjoy spending time with someone or want to be in a relationship with one another.

Yeah, but you don't just become a couple. You have to get there first.

[Serpentine]

http://images4.cpcache.com/product_zoom/508444184v7_400x400_Front_Color-Black.jpg

[ZombyWoof]

If only we knew more about WHY the bowl of petunias was thinking that...

[Coidzor]

My money always was on the idea that it's the same flowerpot that keeps falling in every story that ever happens, so it's getting quite tired of things by now.

[Rawhide]

If only we knew more about WHY the bowl of petunias was thinking that...

Actually, we do.

It was this particular being that kept being reincarnated, only to be killed again by the actions of Arthur Dent each time.

[Castaras]

To chip in my tuppence on the discussion before about age gaps...

I'm currently stuck in the middle of a problem due to this age thing. I'm 18, he's 29. We both like each other - though it's only been over the internet, and considering how people most of the time act differently online to how they are in real life... yeah, it's not gonna happen. But the age gap thing is problematic - not because of the age gap in itself, but in the life stage difference. If it were 24, 35 then it wouldn't be that weird or problematic, because by then both would likely be working. But as it is... meh. Nope, you can't choose when you're born, but the age gap is waaay too big when one of them is still a teenager.

17 25 is the same sort of gap, imo. The 25 year old would be working, the 17 year old still in school. So I'd say off limits. If she turned 18... I'd still say it wouldn't be quite "right". But then it wouldn't be so bad, considering she'd by then be legally an adult. I know a few people who've been in couples with that age gap, and as far as I recall, none of them worked out.

[Trog]

*pokes head in on age gap relationships*

*ahem*

Yes people can be in different life stages an what have you but really the reason people get into relationships at all in the first place is that there is a fundamental attraction between the two. You can choose who you go out with, of course, but you don't really get to choose who you find yourself attracted to. Some people choose to follow that instinct now and then and there' nothing wrong with following your instincts so long as your head is clear when you do so and you see the risks involved.

Many of these relationship don't "work out." I put quotes around that because, really, it depends on what you mean by it. A lot of people take that to that it doesn't work out in the long term or, as an extreme, it doesn't lead to, say, marriage. But really the vast majority of relationships, age-gapped or no, don't lead to that. So what really matters is the experience you have while in the relationship. If you go into it knowing that it's going to be a (likely) relatively short-term thing it can still be pleasant for both people on many levels and an enriching experience for those involved. It can also, I suppose, be a mess. Like any relationship you take your chances.

That said, it's probably best that age gapping doesn't happen until you're in your 20s or so because it solves a lot of the legal issues and societal taboos. And if you are looking for something that might end up being more long term (lasting years or leading to, say, marriage) you're best off looking for someone within several years of your age. And, for an age gap, after you turn 25 or so when that sort of gap matters less and less.

Both of my best friends have significant others who are gapped in that manner and they've worked out very well for all involved. One's married with two kids and the other is all-but-married and their second child is on the way. Lovely couples, both of them. And my grandmother, after her second husband passed away got into a relationship with a significantly younger man. It was her last relationship and it lasted years and they lived together right up until she passed on.

People can scrape their fingers at you for being in such a relationship but really who are they to say what your heart needs? If they're really your friends they'll be concerned of course, but they'll understand. But if you're reading this and you're still a teenager considering it I'm sorry to pull the wait-until-you're-older card out again but... *pulls card anyway* we're all just looking out for you, you know. Nothing personal.

And as a final note, yes people can be different people online (*drinks, smokes, consorts with self*) as they are in real life (assuming you mean personal interaction-wise and not, like, total imposters claiming to be completely physically different people here) but keep in mind that the mind who writes the words online is still the same mind even if offline they are shy or slightly different in person. Oftentimes the mind's the sexiest bit anyway. :smallwink:

[Castaras]

And as a final note, yes people can be different people online (*drinks, smokes, consorts with self*) as they are in real life (assuming you mean personal interaction-wise and not, like, total imposters claiming to be completely physically different people here) but keep in mind that the mind who writes the words online is still the same mind even if offline they are shy or slightly different in person. Oftentimes the mind's the sexiest bit anyway. :smallwink:

It's more the shyness aspect I'm thinking of, yes. In real life I'm much quieter, serene and sensible. Online I'm the person I want to be, but don't have the confidence to be IRL. That's more the sort of thing I'm thinking of. :smallsmile:

[Gaius Marius]

*pokes head in on age gap relationships*

*ahem*


In retrospect, I shouldn't have made that joke... :smalleek:

[Vonriel]

The biggest problem in age gaps, when younger, is that sometimes people forget that simply being older does not directly correlate to being more <thing>. Mature is the one I hear a lot, but people like to misuse that term. This is why us old fogeys (shhh! don't ruin my moment!) like to tell you young'uns (shhh! again!) to simply avoid the whole age-gap relationship. Even if it turns out the person is more <thing> in the relationship, it's likely not due to age, but because of the relationships they had on their way to that age. After all, the best way to learn to ride a bike is... wait, no, terrible metaphor, let me think of a better one. Umm, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs? No, even worse... Wow, people really didn't think these metaphors through when they made them, did they?

[Andre]

Now, now, the argument about FZ might as well be dropped, for it's the typical beating-the-dead-horse. It is ironic however how the No Friend Zone are about as fierce in their belief as the Friend Zone Theorist they oppose; in other words, the two opposite sides are actually more similar than they are different. Preaching that it's actually easier to hit on a girl you've been friend with is exactly the same as saying it is harder, just reversed. :smallbiggrin:

How about saying to everyone his/her own? 'Cause, you know, it's kind of situational and FZ does exist at times even if it's not the rule of the thumb.

[Trog]

It's more the shyness aspect I'm thinking of, yes. In real life I'm much quieter, serene and sensible. Online I'm the person I want to be, but don't have the confidence to be IRL. That's more the sort of thing I'm thinking of. :smallsmile:
Glad this made you feel better about this (judging by the smiley). :smallsmile:

In retrospect, I shouldn't have made that joke... :smalleek:
What joke was that? :smallconfused: Either way no biggie. I can manage being poked fun at or talked about just fine. Only thing worse is not being talked about, as they say. :smallwink:

*wanders off to eat lunch and consume more happy juice* >>

[Gaius Marius]

What joke was that? :smallconfused: Either way no biggie. I can manage being poked fun at or talked about just fine. Only thing worse is not being talked about, as they say. :smallwink:

This joke here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10815806&postcount=602)

That's what sparked the whole FZ argument. Before that, I was talking about me channeling my Inner Scott.

[Coidzor]

A thought did occur to me though. It's a braver man or at least a much more patient man than I that would be willing to risk having to hear about highschool drama again. I imagine being a parent of a highschooler must be even more full of horror though...*shiver*


I'm currently stuck in the middle of a problem due to this age thing. I'm 18, he's 29. We both like each other - though it's only been over the internet, and considering how people most of the time act differently online to how they are in real life... yeah, it's not gonna happen.

Castaras, do you need some inspirational motivation to make the decision one way or the other?

[Gaius Marius]

A thought did occur to me though. It's a braver man or at least a much more patient man than I that would be willing to risk having to hear about highschool drama again. I imagine being a parent of a highschooler must be even more full of horror though...*shiver*

I am not *that* crazy.

High school finishes in less than 2 months for her, and if I remember my own High School years, these were usually the less drama-filled of the whole.. Everybody strangely being more mature and less aggressive toward each other.

[Erloas]

For what it is worth, when I was born my mom was 19 and my dad was 26... and they were together a while before that, so I think it started at 17/24 but I'm not 100% sure.
That relationship lasted 20 years (give or take), which isn't bad overall. The biggest thing my mom said about it is that she felt like she went from being a daughter (kid) to being a wife and mother without ever really getting the chance to find out who she was. She also never went to college, and given the circumstances (no college close to where they were so it would have been long distance for a while) I kind of doubt it would have lasted all that long if she had wanted to go to college.

And now the age gap between my mom and my step dad is quite a bit more... though right now I couldn't say exactly what the gap is, close to 15 years I think.

[Castaras]

Castaras, do you need some inspirational motivation to make the decision one way or the other?

Nope, I know it's not going to happen, so I'm just staying good friends. S'all good. :smallsmile:


Glad this made you feel better about this (judging by the smiley). :smallsmile:
Yeah, it made me feel a helluvalot better about it all. You're awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[ZombyWoof]

Gotta love catgirl physicists who can make up their mind!

[Coidzor]

^: Well, you know, unless they've made it up that you can't love 'em. :smalltongue:

[ZombyWoof]

So here I go swinging in to flirt with the cute catgirl physicist and Coidzor just steals my thunder! Thrice-accursed awesome people!
yes, now I'm flirting with coidzor

[Lissou]

Preaching that it's actually easier to hit on a girl you've been friend with is exactly the same as saying it is harder, just reversed. :smallbiggrin:

True, and of course a new set of challenges arises as well if you decide to hit on a friend (will it ruin the friendship if they say no? Will it ruin the friendship if they say yes?). And of course being friends does not immediately mean the person thinks of you that way.

My point is simply that being friends is a good way to get to know each other, and when a relationship does form with a friend, it can be more relaxed and avoid the beginning stages of walking on eggshells because you're not sure how they will react to things.
The more you know a person, the more confident you can be in being yourself. You can get to know them while in a romantic relationship together, but you can get to know them before that, too.

About age gaps...

When I was 19 I dated a guy who was 25. It worked well for us, in big part because he was just out a ten-year relationship and had four kids, and as a result unlike a lot of 25 year olds, settling down and starting a family was the least of his concerns. He just wanted to live the relationship from one day to the next, and that was perfect for me.
While he had a lot life experiences that I didn't have (being a father, and having had a very long, serious, committed relationship), he was the one who was less "serious", because he needed a break, and wasn't about to jump into another long relationship.
We ended up with a relationship closer to friends with benefits in the end, because he didn't really want to commit any more than that.

Then when I was 20 I met the man who would become my husband, who was 28. That's the biggest gap I've had in an actual relationship (I had sex with a guy who was 36 when I was 19, but neither of us expected or wanted it to go further than a one-time thing, so I don't really consider that a relationship.)
He was much less experienced than I was in many areas, and had more experience than I did in others. Ultimately, though, I ended up being the "mature one". We ended up breaking up after five years together, but I can't say the age difference was ever a problem to the relationship. People who met us never noticed it, either, probably because we were on the same page and there wasn't a disconnect or anything.

I've met a lot of people my age I had a disconnect with, like we weren't on the same wavelength or something, and a lot of older people I felt no disconnect with. I'm starting to also meet younger people I don't have any disconnect with, as well.
A lot of it is cultural things, too. When I was a teenager, I had "old" interests in shows, music, etc, and didn't follow anything that was currently "in" or on TV at the time. I had more in common with people a bit older than me than I did with people my age.

And I know some people think back on themselves age 18 or 19 and think "I've changed so much, the gap is too big!" but although I've had more experiences since then, I feel I was fundamentally the same person at the time. Your mileage may vary.

Ultimately, I think it is a real shame if there is someone you get along with great and are really interested in, but when you hear their age it makes you back off. Obviously you could relate to that person enough that you didn't realise the age difference. So I would say give it a try (as long as the person is legal), watch out for red flags and see how things work out.

And if there IS a cultural gap, it doesn't mean it can't work. My husband was Canadian, my boyfriend is American, and I'm French. I've had more cultural differences due to being from different continents than due to any age thing. But these differences can be enriching, you get to share each other's interests for instance.

If there is a difference, get to know each other better, and you should get a feel of whether things might work out or not.

About how other people will view you, remember that people might think negatively of you if the difference is obvious, especially if you're the older person and they might accuse you of "misleading" the younger one. Also, it seems to this day opposite-sex couples where the woman is older aren't as well accepted socially as the other way around.

[term1nally s1ck]

Wait, catgirl physicist? Where???

*checks*

....why were you looking so intently at that avy that you saw that? Kinda creepy.

[LaZodiac]

I don't know, I figure the cat girl avatar is pretty obvious.

On topic, I believe the age doesn't matter much, but that you SHOULD date near your age. Might be kinda hard to mesh well.

[ZombyWoof]

Wait, catgirl physicist? Where???

*checks*

....why were you looking so intently at that avy that you saw that? Kinda creepy.
Well how could you NOT be looking so intently at that avvy? it's absolutely a 9.5 on the cuteness scale bare minimum, it's got a dress, and it's got math!
I spoke with her about the avatar that's how I know

[Coidzor]

Better than me, I thought Castaras was a CS major for some reason.

[ZombyWoof]

You'd know if she was a CS major because she'd have had to hack my account to keep me away from her.

WTB: hot CS girl.

[Trog]

This joke here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10815806&postcount=602)

That's what sparked the whole FZ argument. Before that, I was talking about me channeling my Inner Scott.
:smallconfused: I'm uh... not following what this has to do with what I said somehow but um... ok? There there? *patpatpat* ( Ó.õ)>(o_o)

Yeah, it made me feel a helluvalot better about it all. You're awesome. :smallbiggrin:
YAAAAY! AH HALPED WITH A WOE! ^(^_^)^

That effectively cancels out one which I myself caused. :smallsmile: So now I just have er... a few more left to go here... to uh cancel out...

*pulls out and looks at list. Unfolds list which unrolls to the floor and part way across the thread*

Oh my.

[Starbuck_II]

Nah, all I'm saying is assigning this thing an arbitrary "zone" is silly and non-constructive. Else you'd be able to impute everything to the friend zone, where otherwise the problems could be other things:

For example, someone not wishing to date you because you're an ass with personality problems: Friend Zoned!

Someone not wishing to date you because you're poor: Friend Zoned!

Someone not wishing to date you because you're ugly, regardless of other qualities you may have: Friend Zoned!

The friend zone is a myth resorted to by the men who can't get a date for some reason and would rather impute it to the fault of the people they are trying to date, rather than attempting to fix their own problems and, I dunno, becoming dateable.

So why are using Friend zoned in regards to prior/attempting to be dating?
I mean it is possible to be friend zoned after dating as well. Granted that FZ action might be because she didn't like dating you.

[Coidzor]

So why are using Friend zoned in regards to prior/attempting to be dating?
I mean it is possible to be friend zoned after dating as well.

Well, the main thing is that if it's afterwards at least one had a shot even if one went on to fail horribly.

edit: well, not even that. But a combination of milquetoast and horribly.

[Keld Denar]

WTB: hot CS girl.

I dated one in college. We had calc III together. I used to joke with my friends that I was dating 1/3 of the girls in the CS department. Which probably wasn't far from the truth. She was pretty hot though. Unfortunately, I've encountered computer programs with warmer personalities, but thats another tail for another day.

I wouldn't say she was cold, per se...but if you left a 6-pack of Coors with her, the mountains would stay blue, if you know what I mean...

[Coidzor]

I wouldn't say she was cold, per se...but if you left a 6-pack of Coors with her, the mountains would stay blue, if you know what I mean...

Huh. That's an interesting turn of phrase I've never run into before.

I know a couple but one of them is deeply involved with an organization that precludes relationships with non-members and the others either are basically engaged or such terrible anti-social or socially awkward shut-ins that seeing them in the flesh is rare. And the one in my D&D group thinks I'm an idiot or something, I'd swear, but she changes her tune just enough and just subtly enough that I can't tell where I stand with her or where anyone does. :smallyuk: And she's gotten prettier for some inane reason so she's coming up on my radar more often. Only real guess I can think of is that she finally started wearing clothes that fit her.

[ZombyWoof]

I wouldn't say she was cold, per se...but if you left a 6-pack of Coors with her, the mountains would stay blue, if you know what I mean...
I wouldn't say she's a gold digger... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmhFZvq83BE)

Also if she's cold she's not hot and thus fails my test :smallwink:

EDIT: Coid, where in our great United States do you live? Anywhere near my precious NorCal?

[Keld Denar]

Last I saw, the Coid roamed somewhere in the southern Oregon region.

Speaking of which, the Ninkasi brewery down around there, as is the Hair of the Dog brewery. I love me some Oregonian microbrews...

[ZombyWoof]

That ain't too bad.

Keld if you ever pop down my way (or I yours) we should hang out. I need a bigger collection of awesome friends.

[Coidzor]

Last I saw, the Coid roamed somewhere in the southern Oregon region.

Speaking of which, the Ninkasi brewery down around there, as is the Hair of the Dog brewery. I love me some Oregonian microbrews...

Sadly, the Heavy-Pelted Coidamasaurus has gone extinct in Oregon, sorry. At least, I hope so, as otherwise I'll be having some very angry clamoring for child support once the parentage of any children becomes evident (thankfully it takes about 6 years for Coidery to become evident when the fangs come in with the second set of teeth). Not that I expect to have created any Half-Coids, but, y'know....

Didn't get enough of those when I was around down there but what I did have of it I found rather interesting.

Funnily enough it's a relationship woe that led to my migration patterns taking me there and a relationship woe that led to my migration patterns taking me back away from there.

Of course, the one that brought me there was a falling out between myself and my highschool sweetheart who I'd all but gotten the ring for and the one that sent me back was my best friend getting dumped by the first girl he ever fell in love with over... differences that prevented her from seeing a marriage working out despite getting along great and working incredibly well together and still constantly talking every chance she has...

Although the bit where I became convinced that the girl I was pursuing in Portland made a game out of it pitting me against someone else for her...affections certainly didn't help, as that's most of the reason why I didn't end up moving to Portland to try out living in a real city.

[loopy]

So I may need someone to babble to in regards to 'relationship-type advice'. :smallsmile:

[Vonriel]

You can throw a PM my way if you don't want to discuss it here. As always, privacy will be respected and maintained.

[ZombyWoof]

Wjhat's up Loops?

[blackfox]

You'd know if she was a CS major because she'd have had to hack my account to keep me away from her.

WTB: hot CS girl.Oh god, if I had an arbitrary amount of money for every shy CS major that came after me for being in a class with them and relatively knowledgeable...

[term1nally s1ck]

Must....resist...making....inappropriate.....pun.. ...

[Gaius Marius]

Must....resist...making....inappropriate.....pun.. ...

Look within your heart. You know you want it.

[MountainKing]

No, see, this saturday morning cartoon mindset is a horrid example of what's wrong with the world today, and may well perpetuate the myth of twoo wuv that gets so many kids rushing headlong into relationships they're not prepared for.

Relationships are a job, not some happy-happy-joy-joy funtime where you're not expected to do any work. If someone doesn't like you for the way you are, maybe you should consider the fact that the way you are just isn't likable.

This jumped out at me pretty loudly, and I just wanted to put in my own two cents concerning it (I tried to avoid the Friend Zone discussion of doom to the best of my abilities): I absolutely agree that relationships require work; that, I will not contest. However, saying a relationship is akin to a job is, at least perceptually, false. Jobs suck. They suck a lot, but in general, they're necessary. Careers are like jobs, in that they also support you in your lifestyle, BUT, the important difference (at least to me) is that a career is something you love.

If your work feels like a job, find a different career or suffer for it. At least to me, a relationship, while requiring work, should never feel like a job.

But that's just me being picky. I digress.

[DeadManSleeping]

A more fun analogy is that it's like an MMORPG. You've got to put time and effort into it at any stage. If it starts feeling like more work than play at the beginning, then you should get out before you put good time and money after bad. Around the mid-levels you should be discovering whether the new content that comes along keeps being good. Once you get to the endgame, yes, there's still work, and yes, it's repetitive, but the bonds you've made over the course of time should make it something worth coming back to time and time again.

DMSclaimer: Don't bother extending this analogy, because it probably won't turn out well. Some analogies are perfectly fine when constrained.

[Coidzor]

Oh god, if I had an arbitrary amount of money for every shy CS major that came after me for being in a class with them and relatively knowledgeable...

Didn't you have to beat off suitors who approached you just for walking down the street at one point?

[Sarco_Phage]

Are we talking about shy geeky boys now? I'm totally down for talking about shy geeky boys.

[Gaius Marius]

Are we talking about shy geeky boys now? I'm totally down for talking about shy geeky boys.

Or girls, you know.

Shy geeky girls are also good.

[arguskos]

Or girls, you know.

Shy geeky girls are also good.
Either/or, not overly picky. :smalltongue:

[Gaius Marius]

Either/or, not overly picky. :smalltongue:

I am not picky... as long as the gender is the one biologically compatible with mine. :smallbiggrin:

Well, I don't know if it's being "no picky" when you can find beauty in many girls? Or it's just that I am not difficult in my picking? :smallconfused:

[ZombyWoof]

Oh god, if I had an arbitrary amount of money for every shy CS major that came after me for being in a class with them and relatively knowledgeable...
Well are you attractive? Because I can promise that nothing gets me interested in a girl more than intelligence, and if you're good at CS then that's a clue that you're very likely to be intelligent. If you're also attractive and geeky, then you've hit the trifecta and you'd have to have some serious problems (such as an unusual predilection to stabbing me) for me to not at least try:smallwink:


Are we talking about shy geeky boys now? I'm totally down for talking about shy geeky boys.
Well I'm not shy but I'm pretty geeky and I'm *checks* definitely still a boy!

[Coidzor]

Well are you attractive?

Yes. Yes she is. Quite, in point of fact. :smallwink:

[term1nally s1ck]

Wait, hot CS girl?

I need one of those. My darn computer breaks constantly, and guys don't accept flirting as a form of payment to help out. :smalltongue:

[ZombyWoof]

Yes. Yes she is. Quite, in point of fact. :smallwink:
Well then it behooves me to at least try, does it not?

[blackfox]

Didn't you have to beat off suitors who approached you just for walking down the street at one point?No, that would probably be someone physically attractive that you're thinking of. Desperate CS nerds are desperate.


Well are you attractive?See above.
Because I can promise that nothing gets me interested in a girl more than intelligence, and if you're good at CS then that's a clue that you're very likely to be intelligent.Everyone at my school is intelligent.
If you're also attractive and geeky, then you've hit the trifecta and you'd have to have some serious problems (such as an unusual predilection to stabbing me) for me to not at least try:smallwink:Aha!


Yes. Yes she is. Quite, in point of fact. :smallwink:*stab*

[DeadManSleeping]

Well then it behooves me to at least try, does it not?

Your avatar makes this turn of phrase 20% funnier :smalltongue:

[ZombyWoof]

No, that would probably be someone physically attractive that you're thinking of. Desperate CS nerds are desperate.

See above.

I find people are a terrible judge of their own beauty. For example, I have had many people tell me I am handsome, pretty, attractive, etc. They're categorically wrong, of course, but still :smallbiggrin:
I wish "behooves" was an intended pun.


Everyone at my school is intelligent.
Lucky!


Aha!

*stab*
Luckily I am not Coidzor, so... busy friday? :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

No, that would probably be someone physically attractive that you're thinking of. Desperate CS nerds are desperate.

Well, the pix you've posted in the past would disagree with you there. :smalltongue: But I guess the actual story was either SweetRein or EgoSlayer then. Oh well, means you haven't had to beat people in the streets for trying to get your number at least. :smallwink: That's probably a good thing.


Aha!

*stab*

I think you're confused as to who you were to stab in this case, madame.

*goes off in search of a band-aid.*

[Gaius Marius]

No, that would probably be someone physically attractive that you're thinking of. Desperate CS nerds are desperate.

It's quite the Paradox, but sometime, being desperate is what puts you into the situation that makes you desperate. Am I making sense? :smallconfused:


I always thought I would never attract girl. Until I kicked my own ass and actually tried. I failed at first... but like any skill, you can get better at it. Doesn't meant I have a 100% success rate (hell, I don't even touch first-date with 20% of my try), but I've had some rather pretty girlfriend :smallbiggrin:

Even tho I am a geek. Although, I don't act as if this fact defines me, nor do I act ashamed of this part of me. There are much weirder aspects of me... :smallcool:

[blackfox]

I stab u all ._O

Still feels threatening to me whenever I get attention. W/e.

[Gaius Marius]

Well, the pix you've posted in the past would disagree with you there. :smalltongue: But I guess the actual story was either SweetRein or EgoSlayer then. Oh well, means you haven't had to beat people in the streets for trying to get your number at least. :smallwink: That's probably a good thing.


Appreciate what you have, little miss. Many are envious of this ability.

Although, to be honest, I never ask a girl her number. I'd rather give her mine, or my email. If she feels like calling me, then I know I made an impression... :smallamused:

While you dislike a guy asking your number (and probably being infuriatingly insistant about it), how do you feel about a guy being somewhat flirty, but honest, and who gives you his number, hoping to get a coffee with you sometime?

[blackfox]

While you dislike a guy asking your number (and probably being infuriatingly insistant about it), how do you feel about a guy being somewhat flirty, but honest, and who gives you his number, hoping to get a coffee with you sometime?Pretty much the same. :smallyuk:

[Gaius Marius]

I stab u all ._O

Still feels threatening to me whenever I get attention. W/e.

Why?

I don't want to have to pry into your inner psyche, but why do you feel threatened when people pay attention to you because you voiced your opinion?

I mean, why post on this forum if that's not what you want? I would have expected that you actually value our attention and opinions of what you tell us... no?

[blackfox]

Why?

I don't want to have to pry into your inner psyche, but why do you feel threatened when people pay attention to you because you voiced your opinion?

I mean, why post on this forum if that's not what you want? I would have expected that you actually value our attention and opinions of what you tell us... no?As in, whenever people are attracted to me, or otherwise interested in me without reason.

[Gaius Marius]

Pretty much the same. :smallyuk:

Wasn't talking to you, cutie. :smallwink:

You made your feelings more than obvious already. I shall wear kevlar vest whenever I ask you out for a date.

[Coidzor]

I stab u all ._O

Still feels threatening to me whenever I get attention. W/e.

I'm still not quite sure how we got onto the subject of you myself, though you are one of the more entertaining forumites... Still, for your professional career it'll probably be a good idea to get that looked out, since positive attention is generally necessary for advancement.

[Gaius Marius]

As in, whenever people are attracted to me, or otherwise interested in me without reason.

So procreation is definetly out of your lifeplan, am I right?

Also, soulmate potential.


Hmmm.. let me find the chink in your armor...

...

OH! I am starting a Rome-theme RPG game using the WFRP rule system. Very open-ended in order to fit whatever the players feel like doing, I am good at winging story elements. Interested?

[blackfox]

I'm still not quite sure how we got onto the subject of you myself, though you are one of the more entertaining forumites... Still, for your professional career it'll probably be a good idea to get that looked out, since positive attention is generally necessary for advancement.I've been getting that looked at for like... how old am I. 4 years.


Wasn't talking to you, cutie. :smallwink:

You made your feelings more than obvious already. I shall wear kevlar vest whenever I ask you out for a date.Heh, good luck finding me.


So procreation is definetly out of your lifeplan, am I right?Don't want children, apparently don't trust people enough to have a proper SO.

[Gaius Marius]

Heh, good luck finding me.

Don't want children, apparently don't trust people enough to have a proper SO.

1) Don't need to "find" you. It's... rude to go out hunting for somebody who doesn't want to be found.

Relationship is a bridge where you meet at the middle. While you may be the first stepping on the it, you should not have to cross the other party's part.

2) I am not sure what you mean by "SO"?

[ZombyWoof]

As in, whenever people are attracted to me, or otherwise interested in me without reason.
What if I'm interested in you for a good reason, and not at all attracted?

EDIT: SO = Significant Other. She's saying she doesn't trust people enough to have a genderfriend. It sounds like the way she's saying it (and other things she's posted in this thread) implies that she's a bit bitter over a relationship that may have ended, but that's me reading into things!

[blackfox]

2) I am not sure what you mean by "SO"?Significant other. I generally prefer it because it's gender-neutral.

What if I'm interested in you for a good reason, and not at all attracted?Probably still distrust.

[DeadManSleeping]

As in, whenever people are attracted to me, or otherwise interested in me without reason.

"Without reason"? Okay, I don't care if you don't like amorous attention or whatever, but this phrasing shows that you've got some misperception here.

Nobody is attracted to anyone or anything without a reason. Sure, reasons vary, and may be strange. The reason may be "body fat placement and symmetry are within parameters, activate testosterone", or it may be "I had a red-haired babysitter" (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2030#comic) or it may be "ohmygod she's wearing a Dr. Who t-shirt my head will explode if I don't talk to her" or anything at all like that. Nobody puts themselves in a risky social situation (hitting on a girl) because they're just bored. If you get hit on, it's because you give off the appearance of a good potential mate.

And that's all the reason anyone should need. If you require better reasoning than that, please seek out a different species. One with a completely different form of thought process. I hear slime molds are developing well these days.

[ZombyWoof]

Well here it is out in the open then:

I haven't a flaming clue whether or not you're attractive (and honestly it probably wouldn't matter), but the fact that you're a computer science major with geeky interests means we have things in common. So (like with virtually every other poster here) I'm very interested in you and would like to know more about you. But you don't trust that so it's ok.

I *will* say that if you want some online friend you can drop like a rock and never talk to again, I'd be interested in talking to you more :smallwink: It's like the ultimate 0 pressure: the minute you decide you hate me *block* *ignore* problem solved :smallbiggrin:

[Gaius Marius]

Significant other. I generally prefer it because it's gender-neutral.



Oh.. I use "Other Party" myself. Must be the military linguo/battleschool slang influence I've had.


Oh well, I'm not gonna psychanalyse you on this forum*.. So I'll just tell you I hope you get to find someone you can trust. Or maybe find that little trusting part in you sometime. Having an OP is one of the deerest feeling I have in my life.. It's always worth the pain I've been through...


*not today, anyway

[Tiger Duck]

I tend to use Other Half/ Better Half.

[Gaius Marius]

I tend to use Other Half/ Better Half.

Some of my past relationship wouldn't qualify... :smallwink::smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

I tend to use Other Half/ Better Half.

Oh, stop selling yourself short. :smalltongue:

Alternatively, try dating an equal sometime. :smallwink:

[ZombyWoof]

I frown deeply on non-ironic usage of "better half." The implication that someone's "better half" is someone else is, to me, deeply disturbing. It can lead to unidirectional relationships, self-esteem issues, and IRL GOTIS.

[term1nally s1ck]

I stab u all ._O

Still feels threatening to me whenever I get attention. W/e.

What about those of us that want their freaking computers fixed, and don't get along well enough with any of the guys he knows that do CS to get them to help out?