Relationship Woes and Advice 18: Finally Legal in Hollywood

[DeadManSleeping]

obligatory copypasta

Welcome to the Relationship Woes and Advice thread, home of any questions you may have: romantic or familial or friendship, we'll answer (or try to answer) them all. Three years old and growing. As Pancake says, this isn't a trade economy- feel free to ask if you have a question, even if you haven't ever given advice and don't intend to start. We won't stone you or ignore you or anything. All we ask is to know how a situation ends up, either in this thread or through a PM.

Here are the basics.

The biggest bit of advice I've seen bandied around is the truest- no matter what else is true about the situation, always be yourself. It's no good to act like someone else, because eventually the true you will come out and the other person will not be happy you hid that from them.


Rules Of Relationships:
#1- Communicate. If you can't talk with your partner, it's probably not going to work.

#2- Be yourself. Admittedly, if you have some really bad habits you should probably try to change them, but be honest about who you are. No one wants to find out they were loving a lie, and no one likes to live a lie (...well, normally).

#3- Accept your partner. In mine, and other people's, experience you have to be able to accept your partner as they are, because they probably won't be able to change. Also, don't change drastically for someone. I've tried it, my friends have tried it, it doesn't work and it doesn't end pretty.

#4- Hints. Do. Not. Work. Or they might, but the chance of that happening is limited. Some people are like me and just utterly oblivious unless it is blatantly stated, others are (also like me) and don't want to assume, and yet others don't care. You won't know which they belong to unless you actually spell out your intentions and/or feelings. I would consider this a corrolery to Rule #1 except that it comes up so often. Do NOT assume someone should know something from hints. Hints, by nature, are subtle. Clue Bats/Crow Bars/Mack Trucks are not. Try hitting them with one of those. ;) (No, not literally. I mean be upfront if you are trying to get someone to know something.)

#5- Don't be desperate. You don't need to be in a relationship and the healthiest mindset is one where you are happy as you are, even if you do not have a significant other. Don't stay in a relationship that isn't good if you aren't happy, just because you want someone. This is detrimental to both parties in the long (and sometimes short) run.

#6- Be a couple. Set aside some time every week to be together. Just an hour, if nothing else, where it's JUST you two. No computer, no others. Just the couple.

#6.5- Maintain the relationship. Ask your partner every now and then how they are feeling, if they feel like the relationship is still going in a good direction, etc. Also, make sure you don't hide it if you have an issue with your partner or a relationship. The only way it can change is if you talk about it.

#7- Let your boundaries be known. This goes for everything from intimacy to what you consider cheating to any other thing you can think of. Pretty much if it's something that would possibly upset you or your partner, let them know BEFORE a problem arises. An example would be letting your partner know you consider kissing cheating. They very well might think only intercourse is cheating. Having that known before anything potentially happens is a good thing.

#8- Know the signs of an abusive relationship. Both men and women can be abusers, and if you recognize the signs early on you are more likely to be able to get out of a bad situation before it gets out of hand. It's never easy, but if you know the general red flags, it can help you to avoid the situation.

Another list - courtesy of Pheehelm and arkady

RULES. YOU READ THESE.
-Anything of a sexual nature, please PM to either myself or one of the regular advice givers. If you just want general opinions post something like: "I have this problem, but it is not board appropriate. Could one of you guys PM me?" I know from experience that you will in fact get help.

-KEEP IT NICE. Disagreements are bound to happen, but please don't be rude.

-Joking is all fun and games, within reasons. Please do not get derogatory.

I decided to put this up because, evidently, it was not apparent that these should be followed. I do not want this thread to be scrubbed again, and we were blessed to get it back.

So please - play nice, and if you're not comfortable talking about things over the open board, PM one of the regulars (too many to mention), and I'm sure they'll be willing to lend an ear - or if you're not sure who to PM, post asking for someone to PM you, and you'll soon get a response

-Syka

Previous thread: Relationship Woes and Advice 17: natural numbers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186449)

[Jibar]

I just want to throw out that this is one of the best thread titles I have ever seen.

[Rawhide]

This thread has been legal since 16. Just saying.

[DeadManSleeping]

I was tempted to make it "Finally Legal in Hollywood" or "Finally Legal in California", but eh.

EDIT: Screwit, the Hollywood joke is gold.

[Starbuck_II]

Scholos


So are you saying that no one should ever marry the first person they date? That means, to me, that your first date should be someone you have no interest in marrying and you should just use them to get "experience".
.

Yeah, I guss first dates can be just for exp. I know I learned a lot on my first. Though I wish it went better.

[Serpentine]

Well, on his side: my high school boyfriend's parents got married as soon as it was legal for her to do so, and are still well and truly together with no obvious signs of fractures I'm aware of more than 25 years on.
No comments on this one, I just hope you have as happy a marriage as them (preferably sans the whole "forced caesarian" thing).

[Syka]

Important question: When are you actually planning to get married?

My sister and BIL got engaged after a year and a half when she was 19, and he was her first real, long term relationship.

It was another 2 years until they got married, though.


I don't think the problem is even so much experience with OTHER relationships, but experiences with relationships IN GENERAL. I know over the nearly four years I've been with Oz, I've added to what I learned during the three years I was with my ex. Especially whilst young*, I think it's really important to just take your time before actually getting married. Mostly because, it is a REALLY big step and you WILL be changing over the next few years. A year is not generally enough time to know if you will grow with rather than apart from someone.

My general advice is to be together at least 3 years before getting married. 3 years, from what I've seen, seems to be the make-or-break time where people realize they are growing together or apart. Kinda weird, and only anecdotal, but it can't hurt.



*The age people get married in other cultures or times is irrelevant to what we do in our culture and time. The different situations cause people to mature and different rates, etc. That's my only gripe with that.

[Sacrieur]

Scholos


Yeah, I guss first dates can be just for exp. I know I learned a lot on my first. Though I wish it went better.

Here's the real question. Why would I go on a date with someone I'm not actually interested in? I, personally, would not. If I don't have a romantic interest in someone, then I don't attempt to have a relationship. That is to say, if I weren't actually willing to pursue and invest myself to marry someone, then I wouldn't attempt a relationship.

This poses a whole, "you're inexperienced at relationships," shenanigans. Am I really? I don't know. I've been told I'm an incredibly surprising person when it come to new things or challenges, and that I pick up on things rather quickly. I attack relationships the same way I do everything else in life: with straightforward logic and rationality.

When there are disagreements, I want to talk them out. When I get angry for some reason I ask why and see if my feelings have any logical consistency. I question the results of my actions and wonder how they will impact others. I'm an altruist, so the last bit comes easily and even naturally.

I do make mistakes, however, and I always forgive my fianceè for her faults and errors. I'll be the first to admit I have them too. Despite being fiercely intelligent, she's also very emotional and uses her feelings to guide her judgment. When I ask why she behaved a certain way she gives me, "I felt like it." Or when I ask how she knows something she answers, "I just feel it is right." This can be intensely frustrating for a rational person like me, but I love her bunches and bunches, so I'll be patient. I've learned a number of things, but so has she, like thinking about things before acting on them. Or actually questioning things we take for granted.

---

I've always been a true rebel as well, with a near compulsion to question all authority. Often I go against tradition, so it is no surprise I'm willing to get engaged early (but not married mind you, we have all the time in the world). I guess just knowing that I'd be willing to marry her and I'm actually in this for the long run is a consolation.

[SilentNight]

What kind of distance are we talking about? Personally the last two long-distance relationships I've attempted failed horridly, but the only way we managed to maintain contact was non-physical, basically Skype/phone-call/email. A distance of a state, not too bad. But if we're talking across the country or in another country entirely, you might find it hard.



I disagree. Better to end it earlier if possible, when you'll still have a little time around each other to get used to being just friends. I guess it depends on exactly how serious the relationship is, tho.

Story Time: When my ex-girlfriend of 3 years broke up with me (because she was leaving for college), she did so a couple of weeks before she left. It was hard. We still spent a lot of time together, still did a lot of "couple-y" things, but we tried to limit that. And it got better and better over those few weeks. It was still hard, but it was a lot easier having had a few weeks to deal with it than it would have been to have it happen right before. Anyone who has been here knows it wasn't exactly easy. But in my opinion there is a difference between knowing something is coming and actually having it happen. Having her here to support me when she broke my heart, instead of having her gone and being alone, made it easier.

@Sarco: Well, depending on where I decide to go it'll either be two States or an entire country. (She's been committed for sports since November.) I think we're both of the mind that long-distance isn't going to work for us.

@Skywalker: The relationship's not terribly serious, we've only been going out for about two months, so at the start we weren't sure where things would lead, but I have to say I've never regretted it.

The thing that makes me want to end it right after graduation is that I'll be working for the better part of the summer at a camp way out in the mountains, and not only will I be practically unable to contact her during that time, but I feel like it would be an awkward pause if we only had a few weeks afterwards.

[Sacrieur]

@Sarco: Well, depending on where I decide to go it'll either be two States or an entire country. (She's been committed for sports since November.) I think we're both of the mind that long-distance isn't going to work for us.

@Skywalker: The relationship's not terribly serious, we've only been going out for about two months, so at the start we weren't sure where things would lead, but I have to say I've never regretted it.

The thing that makes me want to end it right after graduation is that I'll be working for the better part of the summer at a camp way out in the mountains, and not only will I be practically unable to contact her during that time, but I feel like it would be an awkward pause if we only had a few weeks afterwards.

It sucks man, it really does. I was in a long distance relationship for the longest time, it's tough, but you can stick it out if you're really willing to roll with it. And if you do it makes things much easier once you're together.

---

I had all of these friends in HS who I hung out with. Move on to college, I no longer hang out with them (no one went to the same college as me) - and I never really moved on quite yet.

(PS: if anyone from Ohio State needs a friend... =P)

[Sarco_Phage]

Here's the real question. Why would I go on a date with someone I'm not actually interested in? I, personally, would not. If I don't have a romantic interest in someone, then I don't attempt to have a relationship. That is to say, if I weren't actually willing to pursue and invest myself to marry someone, then I wouldn't attempt a relationship.

I've trial dated a lot, (usually outside of my social circle) just to see if I could maintain a relationship in those cases. In only two of them I saw potential for continuance, but circumstances (e.g. I'm an awful boyfriend in general :smallbiggrin:) conspired for those relationships to fail.

And I learned. That's how experience works. Oh, also, dating older men was kind of a weird experience and I don't recommend it, unless you're after stability. That's something older people will tend to have - money and maturity.

Also my remarkably homosexual advice still applies for straight people.


I've always been a true rebel as well, with a near compulsion to question all authority. Often I go against tradition, so it is no surprise I'm willing to get engaged early (but not married mind you, we have all the time in the world). I guess just knowing that I'd be willing to marry her and I'm actually in this for the long run is a consolation.

:smallsigh:

This is really not helping your case.

[Syka]

I'd also add that getting engaged early is, pretty much, the antithesis of rebellion. It's what people expect in a relationship between two (even young) adults who have been together more than a year. Particularly if you are waiting a few years...once you add that in, I don't know ANYONE who would think you are rebelling.

Trust me, it'd be more rebellion to remain coupled without getting married. If you look at the last few pages of the previous thread, you'll see my thoughts on this since I'm doing that with my gedonkle (hehehe I love that word and am SO adopting it).

I mean, look at my group of friends. Most have been engaged at some point (most have also ended said engagements). Some multiple times. I am close to five people who were married before 23. Four of those when they were 21 or younger (one was 17). 2 of those have ended in divorce, and one of those people is on their SECOND divorce. 3 are successful, and two of those were together three years or more prior to getting married (the last was a year). The couple who were married when my friend was 17 are still together, actually, but they are also highly religious.


It can work, but it's definitely not unusual. I'm a bit unusual in I've never been engaged, and don't care about getting married. Heck, I turned down my ex's proposal when I was 18, when we'd been together 2 years at that point.

[term1nally s1ck]

What's a gedonkle? trollface engage

[Coidzor]

What's a gedonkle?

I don't know, but it sounds dirty. *goes to google*

[Sacrieur]

I'd also add that getting engaged early is, pretty much, the antithesis of rebellion. It's what people expect in a relationship between two (even young) adults who have been together more than a year. Particularly if you are waiting a few years...once you add that in, I don't know ANYONE who would think you are rebelling.

Trust me, it'd be more rebellion to remain coupled without getting married. If you look at the last few pages of the previous thread, you'll see my thoughts on this since I'm doing that with my gedonkle (hehehe I love that word and am SO adopting it).

I mean, look at my group of friends. Most have been engaged at some point (most have also ended said engagements). Some multiple times. I am close to five people who were married before 23. Four of those when they were 21 or younger (one was 17). 2 of those have ended in divorce, and one of those people is on their SECOND divorce. 3 are successful, and two of those were together three years or more prior to getting married (the last was a year). The couple who were married when my friend was 17 are still together, actually, but they are also highly religious.


It can work, but it's definitely not unusual. I'm a bit unusual in I've never been engaged, and don't care about getting married. Heck, I turned down my ex's proposal when I was 18, when we'd been together 2 years at that point.

I call myself a true rebel because I believe rebellion isn't about going against authority or tradition just cause, it's about being who you want to be and doing what you want to do despite authority or tradition.

And it's not like I'm trying to be a rebel, I just am.

---

Anyway, young? Yes. Don't care. Our one year anniversary is in four months. I don't know, I've been through /a lot/ with her. I'd say I've gotten a good grasp on who she and we've gone through stages of relationships. It's not like all 8 months have been happy go lucky everything is perfect sort of thing.

[Sarco_Phage]

This thread has been legal since 16. Just saying.

:|

Isn't the age of majority in most countries 18-21?

[Syka]

Gedonkle: see last thread. :smallbiggrin:


Also: Ok...yeah, not even a year is still awfully early to get engaged- I don't really care what you've been through. I knew Oz fairly well within our first year. The last three has taught me even more. What we went through in the first, is different from what we went through in the second and so on- and trust me, we went through a fair bit (LDR, other women, family issues, etc).

My point is, no matter what you've been through, it takes at least a few years to figure out if you guys are able to grow TOGETHER or SEPARATELY, even if you can work through major issues. It's an important distinction that you absolutely cannot get with just a year or two.

Which is why I suggested not getting married for quite some time. Engagement can also put undue pressure on the relationship, as well.

[Nix Nihila]

What's a gedonkle? trollface engage

WHY ARE YOU QUESTIONING HER RELATIONSHIP?! *flees and pretends to cry*

But, yeah, I don't think healthy relationships are really ever "happy go lucky everything is perfect". In my experience that only happens when one person isn't upfront about things that bother them.

[Syka]

WHY ARE YOU QUESTIONING HER RELATIONSHIP?! *flees and pretends to cry*

But, yeah, I don't think healthy relationships are really ever "happy go lucky everything is perfect". In my experience that only happens when one person isn't upfront about things that bother them.

This post gets a thumbs up.

All of it.

Especially that healthy relationships aren't all happy go lucky. BUT they should make you significantly more happy than sad.

[Sarco_Phage]

A friend of mine, a happily married professor, always held this view:

First, that "true love" is not only a myth, but a destructive and dangerous one than can lead to you getting sucked into a dead end relationship that is harmful for you and your partner.

And second, that a relationship - marriage, friendship, whatever - is a job. If you care for the other person, then your duty is the show that, to be a good partner, to be someone worth living with. If your partner responds in kind, then what matters is maintaining it.

[Coidzor]

:|

Isn't the age of majority in most countries 18-21?

age of consent v. age of majority joke.

[Starbuck_II]

:|

Isn't the age of majority in most countries 18-21?

Wouldn't age of majority mean age of majority of us in thread? I know I'm not still 18-21. :smallbiggrin:

[Jibar]

Oz

I don't care if it's true or not, this is what I choose to believe. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/buffy/gallery/season3/images/340/04oz.jpg)

Also, story time.


So one of my best friend's friend is coming to visit for a week, so being the womanising stud-muffin that I am, I announced my efforts to woo her.
I started flirting with her online and she was flirting back, noticeably teasing me. And then we actually start properly talking to one another. All the flirting I can notice has pretty much dried up as we've been talking quite seriously and getting to know one another.
And I quite like her now. Initial jokes aside we're getting along quite well.
So, the advice I need is how I might tell she likes me while she's here and whether it's worth acting on it.
Because, you know, I'm an idiot.

[Syka]

Ask her out?

Seriously.

:)

[Sarco_Phage]

I agree.

Ask her out for coffee some time.

NEVER go straight for the dinner/movie option.

[Jonesh]

(spoilered for length and maybe some explicit sexuality, I don't think it is explicit but people's definitions are different)
Well, I chatted with my cute co-worker. She asked me how the party was and I explained that I decided not to go (couldn't drink because of work the next day, too far away and I didn't feel like flirting) and we started talking about kissing and fooling around with random people.

She asked me if I fooled around with girls I have just met and when I said I did, she said that she could never do that.
When I added that I hadn't fooled around with anyone since the beginning of february (see my previous problem in the previous thread, I didn't tell her any more about that situation though) she said something like "Well, you will probably fool around with some random girls".
I had to, honestly, say that I've grown pretty tired of that and that I would rather flirt with girls that I find really interesting instead of like random girls.
She was like "Well, that is possible" and then asked me how I felt when I fooled around with random girls and if I found them attractive when I made out with them and stuff. I was very confused by those questions :smallconfused:

I just said that it feels nice, there isn't much more to it than that and that I don't think they are like, jezebels or something because of they're doing that since I'm doing the same thing :smalltongue:
Then she asked me if I was afraid of catching diseases from those random girls. Which is really a topic I usually don't talk about with girls I'm interested in (most often it usually kills the mood :smalltongue:) and I commented on the fact that such a topic is usually a bit taboo, but I said that I wasn't because I fool around, I don't sleep around but when I do sleep around I practice safe sex.
(I don't know if this is explicit sexuality but if it is I'll edit it out :smallconfused:)
When I said that I don't usually talk about this stuff with people, e.g. I would not talk about this with a "random girl", she asked me if she was a "random girl" and I said she was nothing like a "random girl" but that she was very nice it felt like I got stuck in a negative feedback loop for a while because she got confused and I had to explain what I meant :smallsigh:
Whatever I said she only said like "good" or "ok". E.g. I said that she was more interesting than a random girl, that I liked talking with her and that she gave me compliments because it felt like she was honest and often a random girl would just give compliments because we're kissing and stuff.
Basically, foot meet mouth :smallsigh:
Finally I dodged it by saying that I don't really know what to say besides that I like being with her and that I miss her.

Then I changed the topic by asking when we were going to have our date, she said she was busy all week since she had been sick and then she said kissesbye because she had to go. And then changed her mind about leaving and said we could have a date in two weeks after she came back from London.
And I was like "Oh damn, it's a long time until then" and she finally sent me a kiss-smilie and told me to hang in there.
I said it was hard, since we've been saying we would have our date now when she had gotten well again. She answered that she totally understands, plus another kiss-smilie (I'm gonna abreviate them now I think to... KS will do :smalltongue:).

Then I said to her that date is not going to get rescheduled or canceled and that I was serious about that.
She said she'll pay for our coffe and I answered that it is sweet but that I don't care about that because I want to see her + KS
She said she wanted to see me too and that I shouldn't worry because her and I are going to spend a lot of time together.
And I said it is difficult, since I don't usually wait on girls like that and that if it would have been anyone else I would have quit a long time ago... but that I did believe what she was saying.
She said thanks + KS and I said that we are setting a date for our date and we're not going to move it no matter what and she agreed.

And then we made plans to have our coffee on a Wednesday and have a movie (either at the cinema or at my place)+ dinner at Friday. She's gonna bring some beer for the dinner and she wants to cook it together with me.
She called me "papi chulo", I don't really know what that means except that it seems to mean that I'm a good looking guy... or a pimp :smalltongue:
I said thanks anyway and that I know that she always calls me nice things.

We are going to work together on this Sunday, finally, which means we get six hours when we're standing together at a half-empty grocery store. I was a bit bold and said that we could have those kisses we were talking about doing then now that she was well again, considering what she had said earlier in the conversation I probably should have seen it coming that she clarified that it was only going to be kisses on the cheeks.
Welp.
No major harm done I think, I said I understood, I didn't want to assume stuff in advance and we are on the clock then anyway.

I said I'm looking forward to it, regardless of kisses on the mouth or not and that I had missed her company a lot.
She said she was looking forward to it and have been missing me too.
Then I said that we were gonna have our dates in less than two weeks time after that so I might not even have time to start missing her again.
She agreed + KS
Then she said she had to go home and study when I asked her what she was doing (she was at school) but that she'll talk to me later or tomorrow + KS
I said that was ok, sent one KS back at her and wished her good luck.


My goodness, what a wall of text :smallredface:

My "Plan", as it is, is maybe some cutesy flirting ("Should we hold hands? :smallredface:") and general talk about relationships and us two especially (after some general talk first of course).
Does that sound good to you people?

Also, any tips on a reasonably easy/not too expensive meals that would be appropiate for a dinner date?
I'm not a particularly advanced chef, I warned her about it that I can mostly just make really good Pasta Bolognese :smalltongue:

[Keld Denar]

I saw a statistic a not-so-long while back, and it was something about the highest divorce rate in the US was among people who got married between the ages of 18 and 22, generally after 7-10 years of marriage.

I'm a member of a singles activities club (Events and Adventures, I highly recommend it for making new friends!), and there are quite a few divorcees in the club. Most of them cite "I was too young, and I didn't know what I wanted/was doing" as the primary reason for their failed marriage. That might be a bit biased, considering its only a one sided story, but it certainly is consistant.

Not saying that everyone who gets married under 25 is doomed to a doomy doom of doomy doom, as there are obviously people who do make it work (otherwise the statistic would be 100%, which its not), but there is a strong precident for young marriages in the US to fail.

As long as we are talking about statistics, though, allow me to throw this staggering FACT out there. 100% of all divorcees have at some time in their life, been married. That right there, is a strong fact. You can't make up statistics like that. 100%. Think about that for a while, people...marriage is the leading cause of divorce.

[Starbuck_II]

As long as we are talking about statistics, though, allow me to throw this staggering FACT out there. 100% of all divorcees have at some time in their life, been married. That right there, is a strong fact. You can't make up statistics like that. 100%. Think about that for a while, people...marriage is the leading cause of divorce.
(And here are some more statistics):
Yeah, and living is the leading cause of death. 1000's of people die from living every day. 100% of people who died were alive prior to death. Think about that next time someone says sieze the day, before you drop kick them squarely in the mouth.

Jonesh:


Also, any tips on a reasonably easy/not too expensive meals that would be appropiate for a dinner date?
I'm not a particularly advanced chef, I warned her about it that I can mostly just make really good Pasta Bolognese

Is paste Bolognese any good?

[Coidzor]

So your point is that people shouldn't be told to be cautious about things because they're going to get burned anyway? :smallconfused:

In other news, Jibar, has a stud cat-muffin been made yet?


Is paste Bolognese any good?

There are those who like it, yeah. It's come up as a go-to dish for getting the ladies enamoured with a man's cooking a couple of times in this thread. Not sure if it was the same bloke all three times I recall it coming up though...

It's basically a meat-tomato-wine sauce with vegetables.

[Syka]

Blackened chicken with some sort of rice (spanish rice and red beans and rice have both been good). It's real simple too. Just take some chicken breast, coat it in the seasoning (we use Chef Paul's Blackened Redfish Magic...actual name), and bake it.

Rice can come from a box. My fave is Zataran's Red Beans and Rice.

It's yummy, but might want to be careful if you don't like spicy stuff. It's a little spicy but not overwhelming.

[Tyndmyr]

Here's the real question. Why would I go on a date with someone I'm not actually interested in? I, personally, would not. If I don't have a romantic interest in someone, then I don't attempt to have a relationship. That is to say, if I weren't actually willing to pursue and invest myself to marry someone, then I wouldn't attempt a relationship.

I would differentiate between "romantic interest" and "invest myself to marry".

It's easy to initially feel some level of romantic interest in someone...but you might not know the person terribly well, even. It takes a fair amount of time to really get to know someone, and it's terribly easy to fool yourself into being overly optimistic even when there's tons of warning signs.

There's really no need to rush, or feel like every romantic interest has to develop into something worthy of marriage.

Full disclosure: Been married and divorced myself.

[Coidzor]

Blackened chicken with some sort of rice (spanish rice and red beans and rice have both been good). It's real simple too. Just take some chicken breast, coat it in the seasoning (we use Chef Paul's Blackened Redfish Magic...actual name), and bake it.

Rice can come from a box. My fave is Zataran's Red Beans and Rice.

It's yummy, but might want to be careful if you don't like spicy stuff. It's a little spicy but not overwhelming.

In that vein, both red beans and rice and cajun jambalaya (brown rather than red or creole/Nawlins) are both pretty serviceable but tasty and can be adjusted according to your spice tolerances fairly well.

And once mastered can also be used to, say, provide a week's worth of packed lunches, since the scale at which you prepare the dish is primarily limited by the size of your largest pot.

[Jibar]

Ask her out?

Seriously.

:)


I agree.

Ask her out for coffee some time.

NEVER go straight for the dinner/movie option.

What, but that's far too simple and straight forward. How could I possibly goof on that and make an ass out of myself.

What about complications:


1. She's Finnish
2. So by visiting for a week I mean she's in the country for a week.
3. Considering she has come to see my friend I'm not sure how splitting them up would go down.
4. I am much stupider than you assume.
5. I don't like coffee.
6. I don't like ending lists on 5. Don't know why.



In other news, Jibar, has a stud cat-muffin been made yet?

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Jibar/Cat-Muffins/catmuffincad.png

I think that's as close as I've got.

I mean I have pictures (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Jibar/SuitandVicky.jpg) of studs (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Jibar/DEMONWALRUS.jpg) but I don't think that's quite the same thing. :smallwink:

[Starbuck_II]

What, but that's far too simple and straight forward. How could I possibly goof on that and make an ass out of myself.

Trust me there is still time to make an goof/ass on the date.


What about complications:


1. She's Finnish
2. So by visiting for a week I mean she's in the country for a week.
3. Considering she has come to see my friend I'm not sure how splitting them up would go down.
4. I am much stupider than you assume.
5. I don't like coffee.
6. I don't like ending lists on 5. Don't know why.


I think when people say coffee they don't mean you have to get the coffee too. They usually have hot chocolate and other drinks at coffee places.
The important thing is coffee places don't have the feel of a date so they are a nice segway to getting to know each other without the nervous butterflies that a true date might get.

And, Trust me you can't be that stupid. I assume pretty low of everyone (just kidding).

[Coidzor]

What about complications:

1. She's Finnish
2. So by visiting for a week I mean she's in the country for a week.
3. Considering she has come to see my friend I'm not sure how splitting them up would go down.
4. I am much stupider than you assume.
5. I don't like coffee.
6. I don't like ending lists on 5. Don't know why.

Irrelevant. Take what time as you can get and have what fun you may. And, hey, if something comes of it, mores the better.

[Jonesh]

Jonesh:

Is paste Bolognese any good?

Yes, basically what Coidzor said. It's minced meat with a sauce and you cook it all in a pan. Eg. I like to make my pasta bolognese with crushed tomatoes, some ketchup, carrots, mushrooms, bacon and curry. And some other assorted spices, but those are the main ingredients.
I've never used wine in it though, I've actually never cooked anything with wine! My excuse is that I am still a young bachelor and have only been able to legally buy alcohol for about 2 and a half years :smalltongue:


Blackened chicken with some sort of rice (spanish rice and red beans and rice have both been good). It's real simple too. Just take some chicken breast, coat it in the seasoning (we use Chef Paul's Blackened Redfish Magic...actual name), and bake it.

Rice can come from a box. My fave is Zataran's Red Beans and Rice.

It's yummy, but might want to be careful if you don't like spicy stuff. It's a little spicy but not overwhelming.

Oh, I like spicy stuff! Plus I got lots of rice. Also, I can cook chicken stuff just fine I suppose, it's like, I'm not good or bad in the kitchen I think... I just end up doing the same stuff over and over again because of habit and general a dish's general cheapness :smallredface:
Making sauces with like cream and milk and stuff is something that I have almost never done for example.


In that vein, both red beans and rice and cajun jambalaya (brown rather than red or creole/Nawlins) are both pretty serviceable but tasty and can be adjusted according to your spice tolerances fairly well.

And once mastered can also be used to, say, provide a week's worth of packed lunches, since the scale at which you prepare the dish is primarily limited by the size of your largest pot.

Oh ye gods man, JAMBALYA!
Why didn't I think of that, it's one of my favorite dishes of all time and I think I still can remember how to cook it!
I completely LOVE eating jambalya :smallbiggrin:
Most definitely leaning towards making jambalya now :smallsmile:

Guess I just needed a small kick in my culinary glands to remember all the good food I've eaten/can cook :smalltongue:

[Glass Mouse]

And second, that a relationship - marriage, friendship, whatever - is a job. If you care for the other person, then your duty is the show that, to be a good partner, to be someone worth living with. If your partner responds in kind, then what matters is maintaining it.

As cynical as this seems at first glance, this is true. I don't think anyone who's been in a long-term relationship will deny this.


(spoilered for length and maybe some explicit sexuality, I don't think it is explicit but people's definitions are different)
*snip*

Girl: "Hmm... He seems nice, but what if he's just playing me?"
She even admits outright that's what she wanted to know.

Plus, if you're considering someone in a sexual/romantic manner, it's nice to know if you're compatible.

Hooray for wednesday date! It's so, so, so much better than texting.


Also, any tips on a reasonably easy/not too expensive meals that would be appropiate for a dinner date?
I'm not a particularly advanced chef, I warned her about it that I can mostly just make really good Pasta Bolognese :smalltongue:

Anything is good, as long as you put an effort into it. Pasta bolognese, Jambalye, you name it.

And is it just me, or does cooking seem like a wonderful, can't-fail litmus test? If the guy's willing to spend a lot of time cooking, he's interested. If the girl compliments bad/mediocre food, she's interested. (adjust for appropiate genders)
Perfect :smallbiggrin:


My excuse is that I am still a young bachelor and have only been able to legally buy alcohol for about 2 and a half years :smalltongue:

Wait, what? Your legal drinking age is 19?

NO WONDER you keep sailing over Øresund and hogging our beer! :smallwink:

[Jonesh]

Girl: "Hmm... He seems nice, but what if he's just playing me?"
She even admits outright that's what she wanted to know.

Plus, if you're considering someone in a sexual/romantic manner, it's nice to know if you're compatible.

Hooray for wednesday date! It's so, so, so much better than texting.


And a date on Friday :smallwink:


Anything is good, as long as you put an effort into it. Pasta bolognese, Jambalye, you name it.

And is it just me, or does cooking seem like a wonderful, can't-fail litmus test? If the guy's willing to spend a lot of time cooking, he's interested. If the girl compliments bad/mediocre food, she's interested. (adjust for appropiate genders)
Perfect :smallbiggrin:

It's just not you, I think good cooking skills is an attractive trait, regardless of gender. Must be because I'm such a gourmand :smallbiggrin:


Wait, what? Your legal drinking age is 19?

NO WONDER you keep sailing over Øresund and hogging our beer! :smallwink:
Almost right! Our legal age for drinking alcohol is 18, however you can't buy alcohol from Systembolaget (for all you non-scandinavians, that is a stateowned company in Sweden that has a sort-of monopoly on liquor above a certain percentage) unless you are at least 20 years old.
Funny story: Best friend turns 20 years old a week before my birthday. We go to Systembolaget to buy some good beer.
"We should split up the stuff we're buying so we don't have to muck around with cash".
The cashier cards my friend and then me.
"Sorry, you're not old enough."
"But my birthday is in like three days!"
No beer for me.
*Sad trombone*

But yeah, I know right. I lived in Helsingborg as a teenager and Denmark was just a 20-minute ferry ride away. You bet your ass we went to Denmark to buy liquor :smallwink:
It's not like the swedish customs officers even cared :smalltongue:

Edit: @Glass Mouse, om du vill och orkar så kan jag skicka en logg igen. Du får se mig skriva en massa pinsamma saker i hopp om att hon ska börja skriva gulliga saker igen och inte tycka att jag är för intresserad.
Jag tror inte att det gick så bra på den punkten som jag hoppades haha :smalltongue:

[ZombyWoof]

1. She's Finnish
2. So by visiting for a week I mean she's in the country for a week.
3. Considering she has come to see my friend I'm not sure how splitting them up would go down.
4. I am much stupider than you assume.
5. I don't like coffee.
6. I don't like ending lists on 5. Don't know why.

Did you know that Starbucks sells tea, cider, and hot chocolate? Did you know that none of these drinks contain coffee? Did you also know that because of the prevalence of Starbucks, the majority of coffee shops around the world have started carrying at least a moderate variety of these drinks so they can stay in competition with Starbucks?

If you're lucky, they'll also have a variety of juices!

EDIT: Hey, you all are lucky. Here I needed to be 21 to buy my first drink!

Granted, I didn't buy it. My mom bought me a margarita and a double of tequila on my 21st. Good stuff too, went great with my mole enchilada.

Friggin' bomb that place is.

[DeadManSleeping]

Did you know that Starbucks sells tea, cider, and hot chocolate? Did you know that none of these drinks contain coffee? Did you also know that because of the prevalence of Starbucks, the majority of coffee shops around the world have started carrying at least a moderate variety of these drinks so they can stay in competition with Starbucks?

Don't forget the chai latte! I know it's technically tea, but a chai latte is very much sweetened so that it tastes different from other teas. It's one of my favorite caffeinated beverages (though, since I don't drink caffeine anymore...)

Jibar, if you aren't sure how long she's going to be around, ask her. It's good information to know, and if you are lucky, can make a great segue into "Well, if you're going to be around for [insert length of time], we should probably go [insert appropriate activity]."

[Serpentine]

:|

Isn't the age of majority in most countries 18-21?Only cuz you're gay, and gay people don't deserve love.
For your information (assuming you meant consent, not majority):http://samaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Age_of_Consent.png
18 is in the minority.
So, the advice I need is how I might tell she likes me while she's here and whether it's worth acting on it.Watch a movie, in the dark, under a blanket, sitting close next to her. "Accidentally" brush hands. Proceed.
Still my favourite! :smalltongue:
(And here are some more statistics):
Yeah, and living is the leading cause of death. 1000's of people die from living every day. 100% of people who died were alive prior to death. Think about that next time someone says sieze the day, before you drop kick them squarely in the mouth.89% of criminals consumed a bread product within 24 hours of commiting a crime. BREAD IS THE DEVIL, PEOPLE.

1. She's Finnish
2. So by visiting for a week I mean she's in the country for a week.
3. Considering she has come to see my friend I'm not sure how splitting them up would go down.
4. I am much stupider than you assume.
5. I don't like coffee.
6. I don't like ending lists on 5. Don't know why.
1. Racist.
2. Probably not aiming for anything serious, then. A bit of fun is fine, though.
3. Ah, yes, that could be a little rude. Probably best discussing with your friend, that. Also group activities.
4. I dunno, I assume you're pretty stupid...
5. Neither do I. Hot chocolate is da bom, and chai latte can be good.
6. You should've stopped on 4 or 8.

[ZombyWoof]

1. Racist.
I am pretty sure his point wasn't "she's finnish and therefore she sucks" but rather "she's finnish and therefore from Finland which is a very long way away from me." I wouldn't date you because you're Australian. Not because I have something against Australians, but because you being Australian means that you're in Australia which is approximately 10,000 miles (16,000 km) away.

Be that as it may, I have good news!

So a new girl joined our D&D group today. She's approximately our age, let out one of those fatty belches that just makes you want to applaud, was fun to talk to, IS INTERESTED IN POTENTIALLY BEING A HOME FOR OUR CATS, is pre-vet, and plays rugby.

On the litmus test of things I'm looking for, when was the last time I found a sports enthusiast who was also into D&D? That's pretty awesome right there.

Plus she's cute! Not like the greatest looking person on earth, but definitely very cute.

[Sarco_Phage]

Only cuz you're gay, and gay people don't deserve love.

NO ONE DOES. ;_;

Also, age of majority is what I meant, which is what is usually meant when someone says "legal".

[Innis Cabal]

I am pretty sure his point wasn't "she's finnish and therefore she sucks" but rather "she's finnish and therefore from Finland which is a very long way away from me." I wouldn't date you because you're Australian. Not because I have something against Australians, but because you being Australian means that you're in Australia which is approximately 10,000 miles (16,000 km) away.

Think she was being silly. Seeing as the rest of the tone was fairly teasing/sarcastic.


NO ONE DOES. ;_;

Also, age of majority is what I meant, which is what is usually meant when someone says "legal".

It's 18 in America barring state rulings. The age of majority is still 18 though.

[ZombyWoof]

Ah. Very well then. IGNORE ME!
I know people who are really trigger-happy with that label.


EDIT: Awww she has a bf. The good ones always do :smallyuk::smallwink:

[Serpentine]

I am pretty sure his point wasn't "she's finnish and therefore she sucks" but rather "she's finnish and therefore from Finland which is a very long way away from me." I wouldn't date you because you're Australian. Not because I have something against Australians, but because you being Australian means that you're in Australia which is approximately 10,000 miles (16,000 km) away.Yeah, I was joking :smalltongue: If I really thought he was being racist, I would've gone on about it more, requested clarification, and so on.
NO ONE DOES. ;_;Noone deserves love? :smallconfused:
Also, age of majority is what I meant, which is what is usually meant when someone says "legal".I've only ever heard someone described as "legal" as in "legally able to have sex/okay to have sex with". Saying someone's "legal" as in "legally able to live on their own, vote, buy porn and/or drink alcohol" seems... odd, to me.

[Sarco_Phage]

I've only ever heard someone described as "legal" as in "legally able to have sex/okay to have sex with". Saying someone's "legal" as in "legally able to live on their own, vote, buy porn and/or drink alcohol" seems... odd, to me.

Hmmm. Must be something native to my people's idiom, I suppose.


Noone deserves love? :smallconfused:

Also, yes. Noone deserves love.

http://www.parsec-santa.com/celebrity/celebs4/PeterNoone.jpg

I mean, how can you not love him?

[ZombyWoof]

I'm much more likely to date a girl if she buys me alcohol. Just sayin' :smallwink:

[Rawhide]

Also, age of majority is what I meant, which is what is usually meant when someone says "legal".

I have never heard the age of majority (which grants rights to a person that "may include entering into a binding contract, buying stocks, voting, buying and/or consuming alcoholic beverages, driving motor vehicles on public roads, and marrying without obtaining consent of others" [link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_majority)]) being referred to as the person being "legal".

In all instances I have heard that (movies, television, fiction, news reports, real life, books, articles, etc.), it means that someone has reached the age of consent (which is "the minimum age at which a person is considered to be legally competent of consenting to sexual acts" [link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent)]).

[Icewalker]

What's that? I have my eye on a potential significant other? :smallbiggrin:

Met her with the archery people over on campus, which she's been doing for a while, and I am just picking up cause it's awesome. I came back the next two days just to shoot a bit more, and I'm going to take the class, and then join the club at the beginning of next year, which she is in. We talked a lot around the range (lots of time to talk between ends in archery) as well as quite a bit afterwards once, getting dinner with archery folks. I've been getting some little positive hints from her, although they may not be significant. Been talking to her a lot since (spent pretty much all day today exchanging texts, talking with her right now on AIM). And at some point we're going to go and watch the sunset from the roof of the tallest building on campus, cause I mentioned that it's beautiful from up there, which it very much is.

So...good signs, basically. :smallbiggrin:

Seeing as I actually have absolutely nowhere to take her in terms of asking her out, I'm probably going to go for the more gradual move to start, which has worked for me in the past. Just need to make sure I do it right and don't be so subtle it looks like I'm not interested. Luckily I am flirtatious and good at it. :smallwink:

Also if we get together I'll probably do what has become my standard early big date, which is taking my significant other to a Cirque du Soleil show.

Edit: Well that situation changed quickly! I told her. Reciprocation achieved. We talked a bit, vaguely and mysteriously, about significant changes that defined us (cause it came up), and proceeded to have been shaped by, and describe said changes, in exactly the same ways. Like, almost scarily so. Anyway. I don't quite remember the last time I was grinning this much.

[Jibar]

1. Racist.

You're racist! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvkgBNLBETg)

[Serpentine]

I played that several times in a row because I kept missing the start.
...it gets a rhythm.

[DeadManSleeping]

Here's a question for you all:

If you are really pretty dang sure that a person is interested in you, what is the okayness level of going in for the kiss before actually asking them about having a relationship/fling/whatever? I'm sure it's not as cool as it is in movies/TV, but I still want to know.

[Starbuck_II]

Depends entirely on the girl and situation/environment.

Granted, I've never tried to kiss out of nowhere so I'm just going with instinct that it depends.

[rakkoon]

I would suggest leaning in until your lips are inches apart. If she hasn't hit you over the head yet you may proceed. I would also suggest no tongues for the first kiss.

[ILM]

I would suggest leaning in until your lips are inches apart. If she hasn't hit you over the head yet you may proceed. I would also suggest no tongues for the first kiss.
What he said.

Fun fact: in general, I've found that girls actually don't hate your guts with violent emphasis after a failed attempt at a kiss (as in, you thought it was a good idea but she turned away or whatever). Don't sweat it, move on, and if she doesn't fly away ("oh god have you see the time? Verily, I must go!"), try again the next time the mood looks right.

[Keld Denar]

You're racist! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvkgBNLBETg)

Everyone's a little bit racist... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHKIMOgoJoU)

[Ytaker]

I would suggest leaning in until your lips are inches apart. If she hasn't hit you over the head yet you may proceed. I would also suggest no tongues for the first kiss.

I personally use the power of silence. I'll let the conversation trail off. If she looks at my lips or stares into my eyes then that's generally a good sign she wants to kiss.

Alternatively I'll try to convince her to kiss me with some game like "You should know, I'm far too innocent to do anything. You shouldn't get any ideas. I never kiss on a first date." while using extremely flirty body language.

[term1nally s1ck]

Here's a question for you all:

If you are really pretty dang sure that a person is interested in you, what is the okayness level of going in for the kiss before actually asking them about having a relationship/fling/whatever? I'm sure it's not as cool as it is in movies/TV, but I still want to know.

Do the kiss test.

Touch her hair, just the ends, and give her a compliment about it.

Within a minute or two, reach out and start gently stroking the ends of her hair with the back of your fingertips. If she's happy with that, she'd be happy with you kissing her.

[Adumbration]

Am I right to feel wronged? Yesterday, at a party, a girl I've been somewhat casually involved, started making out with another guy on the dance floor, out of the blue. True, we were not a couple (and now we'll never be), but I had invested some emotion into it. And apparently more than she had.

She sent a text this morning that she was sorry if she had hurt my feelings, but that she didn't regret it. I sent back a text explaining my feelings and that yes, she had hurt them. She sent back another apology and defended herself at length, mentioning the possibility that maybe we shouldn't have a thing with conflicted emotions. I sent back that right now, yes, I don't feel like we should have a thing of any kind.

When I came out of the bathroom, it was like kick in the gut when I saw her dancing with the guy... pretty intimately. My college tutor, nonetheless. Maybe I had been deceiving myself - she had pretty much said some time ago that we were still "just friends... maybe", but still. I could never do something like that. Never. Heck, if I'm involved with a girl in any way, I can't really even flirt with other people without feeling guilty as hell.

I couldn't even leave the party 'cause it was so late and no busses were going. And they kept making out. :smallmad:

And now I don't want to have anything to do with her anymore. Am I overreacting? I used to figure we'd be friends even if nothing really came out of it, but I'm not sure anymore. I feel just a little sick in the stomach every time I think about it and my concept of her is completely different.

[Sarco_Phage]

I'd say you're wrong to feel wronged, but I'm the last person who should comment on fidelity issues.

[Starbuck_II]

When I came out of the bathroom, it was like kick in the gut when I saw her dancing with the guy... pretty intimately. My college tutor, nonetheless. Maybe I had been deceiving myself - she had pretty much said some time ago that we were still "just friends... maybe", but still. I could never do something like that. Never. Heck, if I'm involved with a girl in any way, I can't really even flirt with other people without feeling guilty as hell.

Issue is she thought you guys were in a open relationship. You figured you guys were more closed.
You two likely never brought topic and went with assumptions. Sucks I know. Mixed signals always are.


I couldn't even leave the party 'cause it was so late and no busses were going. And they kept making out. :smallmad:

That would be awkward and frustrasting.


And now I don't want to have anything to do with her anymore. Am I overreacting? I used to figure we'd be friends even if nothing really came out of it, but I'm not sure anymore. I feel just a little sick in the stomach every time I think about it and my concept of her is completely different.

You are over reacting, but I can't say I wouldn't feel the same in that situation.
You shouldn't let it mar the friendship completely. If she was a good friend, try to find a way to forgive her. If you need a couple days avoiding her as you get over the "us" that was between you two, take some time off of being around her.

But don't end a friendship unless you are completely sure because friendship is magic. :smallbiggrin:

[Vonriel]

Adumbration: y waiting until the next morning to let her know, I don't know that you can feel wronged about the night before. I know there was no really good way to let her know, but if you had let her know during the night and she still did it, I'd say you were justified in feeling wrong. It sucks, I know.

For right now, though, I think you definitely need to give yourself some space away from her. I don't think you should cut her off completely, but don't hang out with her until you're certain that what happened that night won't affect the friendship between you two. Because you still have the potential to be friends, it just depends on whether or not, once you're not thinking about her in the context of that night, you still want to.

[Ytaker]

Adumbration: You didn't make it clear you would be exclusive. If you want her to be exclusive you have to tell her.

If you can't flirt with other girls this sort of relationship is obviously to your disadvantage. Hence you should either find a faithful girlfriend or learn to flirt with outsiders in a relationship.

[ZombyWoof]

Am I right to feel wronged? Yesterday, at a party, a girl I've been somewhat casually involved, started making out with another guy on the dance floor, out of the blue. True, we were not a couple (and now we'll never be), but I had invested some emotion into it. And apparently more than she had.

She sent a text this morning that she was sorry if she had hurt my feelings, but that she didn't regret it. I sent back a text explaining my feelings and that yes, she had hurt them. She sent back another apology and defended herself at length, mentioning the possibility that maybe we shouldn't have a thing with conflicted emotions. I sent back that right now, yes, I don't feel like we should have a thing of any kind.

When I came out of the bathroom, it was like kick in the gut when I saw her dancing with the guy... pretty intimately. My college tutor, nonetheless. Maybe I had been deceiving myself - she had pretty much said some time ago that we were still "just friends... maybe", but still. I could never do something like that. Never. Heck, if I'm involved with a girl in any way, I can't really even flirt with other people without feeling guilty as hell.

I couldn't even leave the party 'cause it was so late and no busses were going. And they kept making out. :smallmad:

And now I don't want to have anything to do with her anymore. Am I overreacting? I used to figure we'd be friends even if nothing really came out of it, but I'm not sure anymore. I feel just a little sick in the stomach every time I think about it and my concept of her is completely different.
NO.

You are ABSOLUTELY in the right. You shouldn't be with a girl who makes you feel uncomfortable or guilty no matter what the reason, and she did something that you were not ok with.

But remember, and keep this deeply in your mind: she is just as right as you are. She didn't see you as exclusive and acted on an impulse. She's sorry she didn't realize that you wanted to be exclusive and didn't realize it was a problem.

You wanted different things out of the relationship and these different things were conflicting so the relationship ended. That's normal. You're hurt because you feel like she betrayed you, that's normal. It's not overreacting. You are right, she overstepped a line. But what you have to understand is that she's not a bad person for it!

Because, you see, I've had friends overstep a line with me without realizing it. They'll say or do something that is absurdly hurtful just because it happens to be a hot-button with me, and I won't want to talk to them for a while. Let it fade, and if you two are really going to be friends you'll forgive her and you'll hang out again. If not, then it doesn't, but that doesn't mean you're overreacting.

It means you don't want to hang out with someone who really hurt you.

[cdstephens]

I've posted in this thread once or twice before, I just need some advice about this.

So I'm in a long distance relationship with a girl. I'm a senior in in a boarding high school while she's a junior at her hometown, which is different from my home town. I'm going to college next year in the same state as her, and although I'd have to fly to see her it'll be much better than current circumstances.

Anywho, turns out her parents really disapprove of this relationship. I suspected so at first, but not to the point she recently told me. They don't want her to have a relationship at all before college, much less a long distance one (she tells me that it's partly because they're Asian parents and almost all the Asian parents in the area have the same opinion on this sort of thing). They also think that because she's committed to me, she's limiting herself from other guys that she could date instead. They're also afraid of me being a huge distraction from her work at school, since next year she's applying for college. As far as I know the dislike is not personal, but again that's as far as I know.

Although her parents would rather her not be in a relationship with me, they allow her to, perhaps as a result of her defending me in an argument with her dad. Normally I wouldn't be too worried about this sort of thing, but unfortunately they directly control whether or not I can visit her due to me having to fly to see her, and vice versa. They can easily just say no to her and we wouldn't be able to see each other, and I'm extremely afraid of that happening. Particularly since I want her to come see me for my high school grad, but she's afraid of asking her parents because she says she knows that they'll say no.

I was wondering if I could get any advice of getting around this issue; I consider it a good thing in general to be on a significant other's parents' good side, and in my case not being on their good side could have negative effects on our relationship.

Also, I've noticed I get really really anxious if we're, say, talking on Skype and she disappears (usually either falling asleep or cause of her mom), or when I miss a day of talking to her. I talked to her a bit about this a few days ago, and she didn't seem to particularly mind as much as I thought she would. Is there any way to fix this? Is it normal?

I'd appreciate if comments like "this is why you shouldn't get in a long distance relationship" were kept to a minimum, cause I made my choice and I'm sticking with her.

Thanks for any help.

[Trekkin]

This isn't really a woe, but I'm still bemused by it and it's a relationship.

I've had a friend since high school with whom I still used to talk a lot in college, until recently. We're polar opposites; I'm an INTJ while she's an ENFP (and she holds the MBTI as gospel while I regard it as primarily a teaching tool), I love hard science while she enjoys giving (frequently unsolicited) psychotherapy, and so forth. I used her advice as a Band-aid for my glaring lack of interpersonal skills, while she would pepper me with questions of a scientific and historical nature and use me as a sounding board for various ideas; this has gone on for about six years.

In the interim, I've had two girlfriends and she's kissed a random guy when the dosage on her mood stabilizers ran too low and tried to go out with a guy she assumed was INTJ and got rejected rather painfully. Then I got involved in a tentative long-distance relationship with another girl, breaking it off rather early, and mentioned to my friend in passing that I could empathize with her recent troubles due to the aforementioned episode. She launched, livid, into a multi-paragraph rant about how I betrayed her trust by not telling her I was in a relationship, segueing into a lengthy description of all the (explicitly stated to be non-romantic) love she'd come to have for me and how I'd apparently spat in the face of it all. She then left her terminal and went for a brief walk, came back, and said it was all right because we could, after all, never be "together", as she had repeatedly made clear, unsolicited by me, throughout our friendship.

I happen to agree with that assessment, and for many of the same reasons she had cited over the course of our correspondence. What escapes me is the logic behind it, as well as her subsequent request that I refrain from contacting her indefinitely. Naturally, I've complied, but I'm still in the dark about what I've done, and worried that I've somehow hurt my friend.

Any advice or enlightenment would be much appreciated.

[Keld Denar]

Trekkin...no offense to her, but it sounds like its her issues, not yours. You probably did nothing wrong. She sounds like she has some issues, and because of her issues, she's drawn conclusions where none should be. You mention that she was heavily medicated for emotional imbalances. It could be that some of her symptoms were still untreated on her meds, or that she was experiencing a side effect, or something else. Those things are crazy in how much influence they can have without you even realizing it.

Then again, I don't know the whole story, but thats how I see it from what you've said. Your best course of action would probably be to forget about her, move on with your life, and if there is anything major you can think of that you may have done wrong, try to make sure it doesn't happen again. I doubt, though, that you had anything to do with her behavior.

Women People are crazy sometimes...

[Ytaker]

She presumably had or has strong feelings for you, and assumed (don't we love to assume) that you returned those feelings and were thus saving yourself for her. Or were saving yourself for her due to your platonic friendship, despite the lack of any romance.

Hence, you violated (unspoken of) relationship by going out with an outsider. Her being emotional, she would have extremely strong empathy. She would thus feel other's emotions, and assume you felt the same way as she did.

The only way to test this would be to get back into contact with her. Probably not bringing up this issue unless she brings it up. Given how emotional she is you can't assume that she actually doesn't want to contact you. She could be assuming that it'll make you want to chase her more as you can read her mind.

[ZombyWoof]

From experience you'll be happier if you don't hang out with her or talk to her again.

[Innis Cabal]

I've posted in this thread once or twice before, I just need some advice about this.

So I'm in a long distance relationship with a girl. I'm a senior in in a boarding high school while she's a junior at her hometown, which is different from my home town. I'm going to college next year in the same state as her, and although I'd have to fly to see her it'll be much better than current circumstances.

Anywho, turns out her parents really disapprove of this relationship. I suspected so at first, but not to the point she recently told me. They don't want her to have a relationship at all before college, much less a long distance one (she tells me that it's partly because they're Asian parents and almost all the Asian parents in the area have the same opinion on this sort of thing). They also think that because she's committed to me, she's limiting herself from other guys that she could date instead. They're also afraid of me being a huge distraction from her work at school, since next year she's applying for college. As far as I know the dislike is not personal, but again that's as far as I know.

Although her parents would rather her not be in a relationship with me, they allow her to, perhaps as a result of her defending me in an argument with her dad. Normally I wouldn't be too worried about this sort of thing, but unfortunately they directly control whether or not I can visit her due to me having to fly to see her, and vice versa. They can easily just say no to her and we wouldn't be able to see each other, and I'm extremely afraid of that happening. Particularly since I want her to come see me for my high school grad, but she's afraid of asking her parents because she says she knows that they'll say no.

I was wondering if I could get any advice of getting around this issue; I consider it a good thing in general to be on a significant other's parents' good side, and in my case not being on their good side could have negative effects on our relationship.

Also, I've noticed I get really really anxious if we're, say, talking on Skype and she disappears (usually either falling asleep or cause of her mom), or when I miss a day of talking to her. I talked to her a bit about this a few days ago, and she didn't seem to particularly mind as much as I thought she would. Is there any way to fix this? Is it normal?

I'd appreciate if comments like "this is why you shouldn't get in a long distance relationship" were kept to a minimum, cause I made my choice and I'm sticking with her.

Thanks for any help.

It's difficult to give you advice when you ask us not to give it to you. :smallwink::smalltongue:

In all seriousness, if you are sticking with the option you'll just have to live with the pitfalls no matter what they are. Doesn't mean you have to like them. Doesn't mean you'll have to be happy about it. Just means that it's going to be the way it is if it ends up being the only way. You made the decision, you have to stick with it.

[Vonriel]

cdstephens: I don't know if this is possible or would even be fruitful, but have you attempted to get in contact with her parents? I have to imagine at least part of their trepidation is that they don't know you. To them, you might seem like some random internet stalker, and if they're even slightly internet-savvy, they'll know that directly saying that is the fastest way to get their daughter to think they're total idiots. It may be that what she has said is entirely true, but it's probably it's not the entire truth. The only real way to clear this up, I think, is to attempt direct communication with them.

Even if you do get in touch with them, you have to understand that they'll likely still say 'no'. But at least by getting in touch with them, you'll have exhausted the last of your real options, and you can know that, as much as it hurts, you tried your best.

As to the second question.. I can't really say, sorry.

Trekkin: I personally don't think it's ever worth it to completely sever yourself from a friend, unless continuing to associate with that person is harmful in some way to you. Obviously you two must have something in common, or you'd never have befriended her in the first place. However, it may be a good idea to give it some time. Wait a couple days, see if she gets back in touch with you and tries to explain. Failing that, get back in touch with her, and bring it up. If you want to maintain a friendship with her, it seems to me like you need to have this conversation and see what caused her to react in that fashion. Don't be aggressive, and ensure that she understands from the get-go that you don't understand. I would hope that would be enough to get her to open up and explain.

Unfortunately, the possibility exists that she wants to end it, and if so, there's not much you can do. I hope it doesn't end this way, but there's just no telling. Also, you need to take some time and reflect about whether or not continuing to know her is going to be harmful to you, mental or otherwise. I know I've had to sever friendships before because the demands placed upon me by the friend were so mentally draining that it was starting to affect me in a severely negative fashion. It's... not fun. :smallfrown:

[Trekkin]

Thank you, everyone; I'm going to leave her able to email me, but she's out of my friends list on anything that might update her as to my being online; more importantly I'm going to quit being paranoid that everything I don't think is important enough to tell people is going to end up offending my friends.

[Ceric]

cdstephens, I don't post here much so feel free to take my advice with a grain of salt. But I live in an area with a high Asian population as well and this unfortunately doesn't sound too unusual... in fact, most high school students simply don't tell their parents at all that they're in a relationship. So I agree with Innis Cabal; you'll probably just have to tough it out :/ especially over the next half year or so until she gets her college applications in. When's your graduation in relation to her end of school? If it's around/before her finals time I can understand her parents' reaction, but if it's after her school lets out then she should be able to go, perhaps?

@v Editing for specifics, my area is mostly well-off first- or second-generation Asian families with traditional values. Mostly Chinese, I think, but I'm not sure how much.

[Sarco_Phage]

"Asian parents" isn't really helpful, you know. If you specified where they were from and what social status they hold.

For example, wealthy Chinese families with traditionalist values will be very leery of any non-Chinese boy or girl in a relationship with their children. It's a cultural thing of ours.

[ILM]

I've posted in this thread once or twice before, I just need some advice about this.

snip
In general I would have been inclined to do the "don't do long-distance" speech, but as it turns out your issues have little to nothing to do with that anyway. Personally, I am of the opinion that her parents are her problem. If you decide to fly over to see her, make sure that she'll be able to see you. Either her parents agree, or she sneaks away or whatever, just make it clear that if you fly over to a closed door, you'll have a problem with that. Making that work with her parents isn't anything you can do anything about anyway. If she wants to come to your graduation but isn't willing to face her parents, then she's made her choice and you may want to think about what that means for you as a couple.

As for going all anxious-dependent when you miss a day's conversation, don't. For one, it's not good for you. For two, I noticed girls don't seem to like that (for long). You've got a life, she's got a life, and sometimes that means skipping a good night call.

[Glass Mouse]

@cdstephens: Has your girlfriend tried making deals with her parents? If they're worried about her grades, an "I will study for X hours a day and/or keep my grades above Y - if I don't, complain away!" deal might make them a little more positive.
I'm not sure what to do about the "limiting yourself from other guys" argument. Is it because you're not Asian? (qua Sarco's post)

I'll also second the "get in touch with them" idea. My parents are (obviously) not your girlfriend's, but when I entered an LDR, my parents' one condition was that they'd meet him first. Just to confirm that he wasn't an internet predator. That always seemed very reasonable to me (I was 15 at the time).

As for getting anxious when she disappears... well, that is annoying. But if it's a common occurence, just remind yourself that it's been an entirely harmless disappearance the last 2471 times, so it's probably harmless this time as well.

Getting anxious when you miss a day... yeah, it's kinda normal, but it's still not very good. Aiming to talk every day is a good idea, but you will miss days. That's life. Getting anxious about it is just asking for sorrow.
Perhaps, if it really bothers you, try starting a tradition of sending a short, sweet text, just a "goodnight, hon <3" or something. It's some kind of contact, you'll know she's alive and still thinking of you, and it takes less than a minute from both of you.

[Ytaker]

From experience you'll be happier if you don't hang out with her or talk to her again.

From my experience getting resolution makes it easier to forget her. Mystery makes something exciting.

[Tiger Duck]

So what does one do when they realise that what they want to do in a relationship could be considers very clingy. But you find it very hard not to do?

[Sarco_Phage]

So what does one do when they realise that what they want to do in a relationship could be considers very clingy. But you find it very hard not to do?

Nothing exists in a vacuum, bro. Some context, maybe?

[Tiger Duck]

Not really prepared to share more context. So if that means that you can't really give advise than that is that. I've been able to resist doing something I'll probably regret till now. So I might be able keep that up.

[Sarco_Phage]

Not really prepared to share more context. So if that means that you can't really give advise than that is that. I've been able to resist doing something I'll probably regret till now. So I might be able keep that up.

Fear of appearing clingy is a very male thing, so don't worry about it, your feelings are probably normal.

If, for example, you're scared of telling him/her "I love you", then that's perfectly fine. Show it with actions, instead of words.

[Sholos]

Yeah, there's all sorts of things that different people might call "clingy", and only some of them are actually unhealthy (depending on the partners' expectations of course). It's really going to come down to what specific action you have in mind and how your SO feels about it. If she's not okay with it, then it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks. If she is okay with it, then again it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks.

[Vonriel]

Not really prepared to share more context. So if that means that you can't really give advise than that is that. I've been able to resist doing something I'll probably regret till now. So I might be able keep that up.

Would you be willing to share further via pm? I'm pretty sure most people here can be trusted enough to respect your privacy.

[Bunny of Faith]

Hello, RW&A. Don't suppose any of you have any tips on dealing with the following? Spoilered for the sake of it.

Essentially it just amounts to that I've fallen in love with a friend of mine, and he doesn't feel the same way, but I've still got to see him daily and I don't think he knows the full extent of my feelings, although I have told him I have a crush on him - he responded with a smile and said he wasn't sure what to say, but it's not changed how he acts towards me. Which makes things worse, if anything. - He doesn't feel the same way, him being straight. :smallsigh:

[Sarco_Phage]

Hello, RW&A. Don't suppose any of you have any tips on dealing with the following? Spoilered for the sake of it.

Essentially it just amounts to that I've fallen in love with a friend of mine, and he doesn't feel the same way, but I've still got to see him daily and I don't think he knows the full extent of my feelings, although I have told him I have a crush on him - he responded with a smile and said he wasn't sure what to say, but it's not changed how he acts towards me. Which makes things worse, if anything. - He doesn't feel the same way, him being straight. :smallsigh:


Sup. I can tell you I've had the same problem before. It'll go away over time, don't worry.

Although you MAY have made an eensy booboo, considering you just came on to a friend who does not regard his own gender as something to consider when it comes to a relationship.

[Bunny of Faith]

Sup. I can tell you I've had the same problem before. It'll go away over time, don't worry.
I've been in similar situations before, but never as painful as this and the only time they start to go away was after I stopped seeing the person. Which isn't an option at current, and thus why I'm asking for help dealing with it. :smalltongue:



Although you MAY have made an eensy booboo, considering you just came on to a friend who does not regard his own gender as something to consider when it comes to a relationship.

Wasn't like that, because I knew he wouldn't respond in turn. It was more a case of keeping some dregs of sanity, keeping it bottledup and seeing him daily just didn't feel like something I could realisticly do without actually going insane. Just spoke to him privately and told him.

[Drascin]

Do the kiss test.

Touch her hair, just the ends, and give her a compliment about it.

Within a minute or two, reach out and start gently stroking the ends of her hair with the back of your fingertips. If she's happy with that, she'd be happy with you kissing her.

You know, on a bit of an offtopic, I have heard about this several times, and have always found this particular test a bit silly. Mostly because I stroke and twirl the ends of the hair of pretty much every single girl I know, pretty much any time my hand's nearby. I like playing with hair, especially if it's soft, and they say it's relaxing, so it's win/win. But somehow I seriously doubt all (or any, really) of these girls would be alright with kissing me :smalltongue:.

[The Rose Dragon]

You know, on a bit of an offtopic, I find this particular test a bit silly. Mostly because I stroke and twirl the ends of the hair of pretty much every single girl I know, pretty much any time my hand's nearby. I like playing with hair, especially if it's soft, and they say it's relaxing, so it's win/win. But somehow I seriously doubt all (or any, really) of these girls would be alright with kissing me :smalltongue:.

Ah, but hair is one of the most intimate areas of the body not usually covered by clothing. It is also a mark of personal identity for many, so if you allow other people to physically interact with it, it is either because you trust them, or because you want to bone them.

If a woman plays with her hair while talking to you, for example, it is a good sign she is interested in you. For some reason.

((Then again, I like playing with people's hair. I often ask for permission first, which ruins the whole point of the exercise, but some people just have gorgeous hair.))

[Keld Denar]

You never know until you try, Drascin, you never know until you try...

[ZombyWoof]

So what does one do when they realise that what they want to do in a relationship could be considers very clingy. But you find it very hard not to do?
Talk about it with the person you're in a relationship with.

[Starbuck_II]

Hello, RW&A. Don't suppose any of you have any tips on dealing with the following? Spoilered for the sake of it.

Essentially it just amounts to that I've fallen in love with a friend of mine, and he doesn't feel the same way, but I've still got to see him daily and I don't think he knows the full extent of my feelings, although I have told him I have a crush on him - he responded with a smile and said he wasn't sure what to say, but it's not changed how he acts towards me. Which makes things worse, if anything. - He doesn't feel the same way, him being straight. :smallsigh:


Maybe he is just a nice guy. I know I wouldn't know what to say, but I wouldn't avoid a good friend just because they developed feelings for me (even if I wasn't swinging that way). I would just smile and say thanks.
After all who doesn't like to know you are liked.

Granted, I don't know how he feels since you only implied crush.

[ZombyWoof]

Hello, RW&A. Don't suppose any of you have any tips on dealing with the following? Spoilered for the sake of it.

Essentially it just amounts to that I've fallen in love with a friend of mine, and he doesn't feel the same way, but I've still got to see him daily and I don't think he knows the full extent of my feelings, although I have told him I have a crush on him - he responded with a smile and said he wasn't sure what to say, but it's not changed how he acts towards me. Which makes things worse, if anything. - He doesn't feel the same way, him being straight. :smallsigh:

It was probably pretty awkward for him when you said that, and thinking of a proper response was probably very difficult. It's...

Well, a lot of people who are homosexual (or bisexual or transsexual) have had... difficult lives because of it. So it's sometimes hard to tell what will or will not hurt their feelings or cross the line. It's also compounded by the fact that you have feelings for him that he doesn't have for you, so it's like "Yo dawg, I herd u liek awkward conversations so we put a sticky situation in your sticky situation so you can be confused while you're confused."

Honestly at this point you should be happy that he's still your friend since you know it won't be anything more, and that he hasn't let things get weird between you. If you don't think you can deal with him just being your friend then maybe you should stop hanging out with him.

[term1nally s1ck]

You know, on a bit of an offtopic, I have heard about this several times, and have always found this particular test a bit silly. Mostly because I stroke and twirl the ends of the hair of pretty much every single girl I know, pretty much any time my hand's nearby. I like playing with hair, especially if it's soft, and they say it's relaxing, so it's win/win. But somehow I seriously doubt all (or any, really) of these girls would be alright with kissing me :smalltongue:.

As a disclaimer, this only works if it's not a normal thing for you to do. And it's much much much more effective if you're looking at her as you do it.

Maybe messing with someone's hair is a friendly thing, but gently stroking the ends as you look her in the eyes, without saying anything about it? If that's not a big 'I'm going to kiss you now', nothing is. She WILL move away or stop you if she wouldn't want you to do anything further.

[Trekkin]

From my experience getting resolution makes it easier to forget her. Mystery makes something exciting.

Quite so, which is kind of my problem. I want to apologize/work through this, if only so both she and I are on the same page (and I understand what the heck happened), but that's probably not going to happen; she's extraordinarily good at freezing people out of her life. Thus, with absolutely no chance of anything approaching a rational resolution to the problem, I'm trying to extrapolate what happened and have at least a probable solution to whatever mystery remains, if only so I can quit wondering what went wrong.

[Eadin]

Talk about it with the person you're in a relationship with.

I agree. And don't post it somewhere you know she can see it. It makes her wonder why you can't just talk to her.:smallannoyed:

[Ytaker]

Quite so, which is kind of my problem. I want to apologize/work through this, if only so both she and I are on the same page (and I understand what the heck happened), but that's probably not going to happen; she's extraordinarily good at freezing people out of her life. Thus, with absolutely no chance of anything approaching a rational resolution to the problem, I'm trying to extrapolate what happened and have at least a probable solution to whatever mystery remains, if only so I can quit wondering what went wrong.

Yes. So, ignore her demand that you stay away from her. Put it out of your mind utterly. Ask her intriguing questions on social intrigue with her, happily talk with her when you bump into her, make no effort to avoid her.

Also, don't talk about the issue at all.

This will hopefully inspire her to explain it. It's like not thinking about pink fluffy elephants.

Saying sorry is a bad idea. That implies you're wrong, and thus means she's right to keep you out. You're not wrong also, so it's a bad idea.

Also, my own problem. My girlfriend and I were having a deep serious conversation on msn. Our msns disconnected but she didn't realize. She then poured her heart out on msn. She then closed msn because she thought i wasn't talking to her. I'll never know what she said.

It's really annoying. How can I psychoanalyse my girlfriend, probably one of the most fun things you can do, if I don't get her long speeches from the heart? Annoying.

[Nameless Ghost]

Also, my own problem. My girlfriend and I were having a deep serious conversation on msn. Our msns disconnected but she didn't realize. She then poured her heart out on msn. She then closed msn because she thought i wasn't talking to her. I'll never know what she said.

It's really annoying. How can I psychoanalyse my girlfriend, probably one of the most fun things you can do, if I don't get her long speeches from the heart? Annoying.
Doesn't MSN usually offline message things that were said when you disconnected? :smallconfused: Then again it's hardly the most reliable piece of software in the world...

Given that you didn't mention it, I assume that there weren't any issues resulting from the fact you seemed to be ignoring her when you disconnected? Or if there were then they were settled adequately?

The number of times I've heard of partners getting incredibly upset because the other person is unable to contact them due to a mechanical/software failure...

*re-lurks*

[Ytaker]

Doesn't MSN usually offline message things that were said when you disconnected? :smallconfused: Then again it's hardly the most reliable piece of software in the world...

She was using ebuddy. I got a small fraction of the messages. They look potentious.


Given that you didn't mention it, I assume that there weren't any issues resulting from the fact you seemed to be ignoring her when you disconnected? Or if there were then they were settled adequately?

She was more depressed than angry, so once she realized I didn't actually find her boring or hate her or whatever she was happy again.


The number of times I've heard of partners getting incredibly upset because the other person is unable to contact them due to a mechanical/software failure...

*re-lurks*

Yeah, we make sure we always have multiple lines of communication open. Unfortunately, her phone ran out of credit just this night.

[loopy]

Hey, I used to play bass for Legal in Hollywood!

(Cookie for whoever gets the reference)

[ZombyWoof]

I agree. And don't post it somewhere you know she can see it. It makes her wonder why you can't just talk to her.:smallannoyed:
Oh by the way, if you need advice and you're dating someone on this forum and you need advice about that relationship, let me make a suggestion:

PM someone.

I know off the top of my head that Serpentine gives really good advice and is very good about keeping her PM box empty (glares at Syka). But worst case scenario, just PM someone giving advice about who's available and who they respect and likely you'll get turned to the right place.

On another board we typically make "fake" accounts but that's not allowed here per board rules.

See, this way you can avoid, well, what just happened here :smallwink:

[Serpentine]

I agree. And don't post it somewhere you know she can see it. It makes her wonder why you can't just talk to her.:smallannoyed:Oh dear... Sprung!
I know off the top of my head that Serpentine gives really good adviceJust not so good at taking it :smalltongue:

and is very good about keeping her PM box empty (glares at Syka).Uh...
*looks at "94% full" notice*
*remembers the series of "your inbox is full" emails*
<.<

On another board we typically make "fake" accounts but that's not allowed here per board rules.That's not allowed here, not. However, a lot of us have our email addresses available and there's anonymous mailers around, and the LGBT thread has one set up and I'm sure they'd be willing to pass on a R'ship question from there.

[ZombyWoof]

That's not allowed here, no
I assume that's what you meant? I was just clarifying that that's not allowed because it is a moderately common practice on other boards (with regards to threads like this).

[Serpentine]

Er... Heh, yeah. No extra T meant to be there. Additional accounts by the one person used to be allowed, but now they're not.

[Eadin]

Agreeing with these two people above me.:smalltongue:

[ZombyWoof]

Quite so, which is kind of my problem. I want to apologize/work through this, if only so both she and I are on the same page (and I understand what the heck happened), but that's probably not going to happen; she's extraordinarily good at freezing people out of her life. Thus, with absolutely no chance of anything approaching a rational resolution to the problem, I'm trying to extrapolate what happened and have at least a probable solution to whatever mystery remains, if only so I can quit wondering what went wrong.


Yes. So, ignore her demand that you stay away from her. Put it out of your mind utterly. Ask her intriguing questions on social intrigue with her, happily talk with her when you bump into her, make no effort to avoid her.

Also, don't talk about the issue at all.

This will hopefully inspire her to explain it. It's like not thinking about pink fluffy elephants.
What in the... :smallconfused:

So $girl says, "Don't talk to me, don't approach me, don't even think about me" and our gameplan is to pretend that didn't happen?:smallconfused: Yeah... no. That's not gonna fly.

If you must talk to her, a politely-worded "What the hell?" is in order. You have nothing to apologize for, and no real reason to approach her. But if you are curious and need closure on it, then ask her point blank what's wrong. Don't try to play mind games about it because that's pretty much how you all got into this situation in the first place: someone wasn't clear with someone else about what was going on.

In fact, there's a pretty big rule in that first post that says to NOT hide from the issue and to, in fact, bring it up. Basically,



#4- Hints. Do. Not. Work. Or they might, but the chance of that happening is limited. Some people are like me and just utterly oblivious unless it is blatantly stated, others are (also like me) and don't want to assume, and yet others don't care. You won't know which they belong to unless you actually spell out your intentions and/or feelings. I would consider this a corrolery to Rule #1 except that it comes up so often. Do NOT assume someone should know something from hints. Hints, by nature, are subtle. Clue Bats/Crow Bars/Mack Trucks are not. Try hitting them with one of those. ;) (No, not literally. I mean be upfront if you are trying to get someone to know something.)

I would still say that respecting her expressed wishes is probably the best bet. See, I've had people treat me like that. I had a girl who broke up with me, asked me to stop calling her, etc. You know what she did a week later? Called me while drunk to tell me that she loved me. You know what was one of the worst ideas in my life? Getting back together with her.

Because people rarely change quickly, and they only change drastically over long periods of time (years if not decades). $Girl is still the same girl she was a few days ago: the girl who basically told you nothing then went off on you for being in a relationship with other people. Essentially, that means that if you continue your life and get in another relationship, she will just do the same thing again at a later date.





Trust me, it'd be more rebellion to remain coupled without getting married. If you look at the last few pages of the previous thread, you'll see my thoughts on this since I'm doing that with my gedonkle (hehehe I love that word and am SO adopting it).


*SNORT*



What's a gedonkle? trollface engage

HAHAHAHAHA



WHY ARE YOU QUESTIONING HER RELATIONSHIP?! *flees and pretends to cry*


BWAHAHAHAHAHAhaaaaa...

I'd like to thank Syka, Sick, and Nihila for making me one very happy woof.

(For those of you who are curious, this details the introduction of Gedonkle to the English Language. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10681430#post10681430))

Syka, you would make my LIFE if you actually used that word :smallbiggrin:

[Sarco_Phage]

Saying sorry is a bad idea. That implies you're wrong, and thus means she's right to keep you out. You're not wrong also, so it's a bad idea.

You see this?

This is my palm.

It's meeting my face.

[Ytaker]

So $girl says, "Don't talk to me, don't approach me, don't even think about me" and our gameplan is to pretend that didn't happen?:smallconfused: Yeah... no. That's not gonna fly.


I would still say that respecting her expressed wishes is probably the best bet. See, I've had people treat me like that. I had a girl who broke up with me, asked me to stop calling her, etc. You know what she did a week later? Called me while drunk to tell me that she loved me. You know what was one of the worst ideas in my life? Getting back together with her.

I like how you proved my point right after criticizing it. Pretending it didn't happen works, and will get you back with her. You can thus find out what happened. I think you're missing the point. You're assuming the point of this is to have a stable long term relationship. It's not. The point is to find out what's happening in this crazy girl's head so the guy can move on with his life.

She did all this crazy emotional stuff to him so there's no reason he can't do crazy emotional stuff back to her.


You see this?

This is my palm.

It's meeting my face.

I've found saying sorry too often weakens the impact of it. It also works terribly with people you're in a relationship because they expect you to understand what insane leap of logic they made to get offended and will get offended if you don't understand them.

[ZombyWoof]

I like how you proved my point right after criticizing it. Pretending it didn't happen works, and will get you back with her.
That's not at all what happened in my case. And what I was saying is that once someone is crazy, they will remain crazy for the near future, and you really do not need to get any of that on you.



I think you're missing the point. You're assuming the point of this is to have a stable long term relationship. It's not. The point is to find out what's happening in this crazy girl's head so the guy can move on with his life.
You want to talk about missing the point? You're the one who's missing the point by a mile. The point isn't whether or not he should talk to her, but how much of a bad idea it is to start trying to play mind games in relationships, especially since your plan is to somehow "get back at her" for playing mindgames with this guy by playing mindgames back?

My post was, "don't talk to her, but if you have to, then don't do this:"


She did all this crazy emotional stuff to him so there's no reason he can't do crazy emotional stuff back to her.

:smallannoyed:

[Ytaker]

That's not at all what happened in my case. And what I was saying is that once someone is crazy, they will remain crazy for the near future, and you really do not need to get any of that on you.

Yeah, and if she's crazy he can leave her. Once he's found out the information.


You want to talk about missing the point? You're the one who's missing the point by a mile. The point isn't whether or not he should talk to her, but how much of a bad idea it is to start trying to play mind games in relationships, especially since your plan is to somehow "get back at her" for playing mindgames with this guy by playing mindgames back?

I like how you quote something I didn't actually say. I didn't say to get back at her. The point is, he's going to lie awake at bed for months, wondering about her, wondering if he could have done something better, wondering if it was her fault, his fault. He has no resolution. The point is to find out.

And it's not much of a mindgame. All it is is him acting perfectly normal around her. Doing what he has been doing for the past several ears.


My post was, "don't talk to her, but if you have to, then don't do this:"

:smallannoyed:

I know from experience that trying not to talk to her doesn't work well. Especially if you have potential for regular interactions.

[Jonesh]

She did all this crazy emotional stuff to him so there's no reason he can't do crazy emotional stuff back to her.


I just got to chip in and say that two wrongs don't make a right.

[Ytaker]

For emotional people chaos is a right. It's fun. She may well enjoy it. It's fun to have a mystery to solve.

[Keld Denar]

Or she may well get a restraining order against you.

You know...thats what I'd do. They aren't hard to get, trust me.

[Starbuck_II]

Or she may well get a restraining order against you.

You know...thats what I'd do. They aren't hard to get, trust me.

You speaking from experience, Keld?

But really nothing wrong with a restraining order: that way you know she was crazy and nothing you have to be sorry about. At that point stay away (no need to get in trouble with police) :smallbiggrin:

It will be a bad resolution, but it is a resolution.

So it should be taken as a last resort if you must know.

[Keld Denar]

I had to get one against a psycho ex (aren't they all?), yea. They do go in your record, though, so you might want to take care to keep from ever being served with one.

I'm gonna echo the advice of keep away from this chick. There are 6.2 billion people on this earth, about 54ish% of them are chicks. The loss of one of them isn't going to affect you in any meaningful way. Move on.

[DeadManSleeping]

General relationship advice: Don't be a jerk to people, even if they have done everything to earn your ire. Only do what you need to keep yourself from being hurt, and move on. Never having been a jerk to someone will keep you out of a lot of bad books that you really don't want to be in.

Trust me, it's really nice to never have to deal with spite and hatred. Really, really nice.

[Adumbration]

Am I right to feel wronged? Yesterday, at a party, a girl I've been somewhat casually involved, started making out with another guy on the dance floor, out of the blue. True, we were not a couple (and now we'll never be), but I had invested some emotion into it. And apparently more than she had.

She sent a text this morning that she was sorry if she had hurt my feelings, but that she didn't regret it. I sent back a text explaining my feelings and that yes, she had hurt them. She sent back another apology and defended herself at length, mentioning the possibility that maybe we shouldn't have a thing with conflicted emotions. I sent back that right now, yes, I don't feel like we should have a thing of any kind.

When I came out of the bathroom, it was like kick in the gut when I saw her dancing with the guy... pretty intimately. My college tutor, nonetheless. Maybe I had been deceiving myself - she had pretty much said some time ago that we were still "just friends... maybe", but still. I could never do something like that. Never. Heck, if I'm involved with a girl in any way, I can't really even flirt with other people without feeling guilty as hell.

I couldn't even leave the party 'cause it was so late and no busses were going. And they kept making out. :smallmad:

And now I don't want to have anything to do with her anymore. Am I overreacting? I used to figure we'd be friends even if nothing really came out of it, but I'm not sure anymore. I feel just a little sick in the stomach every time I think about it and my concept of her is completely different.

So, after a few days, the emotional fallout has mostly settled. After a few days of angsting, I just didn't have the emotional stamina to be angry anymore and took up her offer of talking about it. It's... good that I did - much preferable to the alternative where I would have just faded her away with awkwardness whenever I see her plus general attempts at avoiding her.

You guys and girls were right, by the way - she acted on an impulse and did not feel she did anything wrong, per say, but she is sorry she hurt me. We agreed that it would've been vastly superior if she had just talked to me about it instead of proving a point by kissing someone else, but that was mostly subconscious on her part.

She's not opposed to having fun in the future, but I'm not sure I'm up to it. Didn't have to make up my mind about it so I didn't. She's not going to date me - she's just not into me like that.

In one hand, it would be nice to just mess around, but in the other hand, I'd really like a relationship with at least potential for more, instead of a dead end like that. That combined with the fact that I'm not sure if I can shrug off watching her make out with other guys while being still involved with her, open-ended or not. Silly, I know, and potentially hypocritical, but there you go. Emotions for you.

That said, I don't really have my sights on anyone interesting at the moment. Also feeling slightly cynical and jaded and doubtful of my capability at finding someone who'll like me and accept me. Also, issues with self-esteem which might or might not be partially fixed by getting laid.

So yeah. Comments, advice, berating and telling me I'm an idiot appreciated. :smalltongue:

[ZombyWoof]

For emotional people chaos is a right. It's fun. She may well enjoy it. It's fun to have a mystery to solve.
It doesn't sound like the op enjoys emotional chaos. In fact, isn't that why he was seeking advice?

@Admuration... stuff happens bro. You meet a cute girl, she stabs you in the stomach, says she's sorry... but um, she's still stabbed you in the stomach.

[Starbuck_II]

That said, I don't really have my sights on anyone interesting at the moment. Also feeling slightly cynical and jaded and doubtful of my capability at finding someone who'll like me and accept me. Also, issues with self-esteem which might or might not be partially fixed by getting laid.

So yeah. Comments, advice, berating and telling me I'm an idiot appreciated. :smalltongue:

(I'd find the youtube video by The Four Knights, but I'm not the best finder today.)
Dude, you'll be fine.
We all have to get our hearts hurt. But you got to give a little, take a little, and let your poor hearts break a little. That's the story of...that's the glory of love.
You've got to laugh a little. Cry a little. Before the clouds rool by a little. That's the story of...that's glory of love.
You've got to win a win, a little lose a little, and always have the blues a little.

You'll find someone someday. Life isn't easy. You've got to roll nat 1's a lot before you'll get your nat 20.

[Keld Denar]

@Admuration... stuff happens bro. You meet a cute girl, she stabs you in the stomach, says she's sorry... but um, she's still stabbed you in the stomach.

Only metaphorically, thankfully. Admuration isn't Lanky, afterall...

[ZombyWoof]

Yeah I mean what she did kind of sucks but there was no malice behind it. File it under "lessons learned" and realize that you and this girl aren't really compatible. But that's ok, you don't have to want the same kind of casual sex as someone else.

Personally I think all of your confusion here could be solved with a bit of reeducation regarding libidos and how "high sex drive" vs "low sex drive" doesn't really differ that much between men and women any more than it differs between any two given men or any two given women. I know a pair of ladies who are MUCH more interested in casual sex (and in frequency of sex) than I am, and I also know that I'm above-average for most of my male friends when presented with the opportunity and motive.

But hey, I tend to blame society for a LOT of the issues that crop up in relationships :smallwink: Ignore the jaded pony behind the curtain.

[cdstephens]

Long ass post since I'm responding to everyone who replied to me, so I'm using spoilers.


It's difficult to give you advice when you ask us not to give it to you. :smallwink::smalltongue:

In all seriousness, if you are sticking with the option you'll just have to live with the pitfalls no matter what they are. Doesn't mean you have to like them. Doesn't mean you'll have to be happy about it. Just means that it's going to be the way it is if it ends up being the only way. You made the decision, you have to stick with it.

Fair enough. I knew this was going to be hard anyways, so I guess I can't complain too much.


cdstephens: I don't know if this is possible or would even be fruitful, but have you attempted to get in contact with her parents? I have to imagine at least part of their trepidation is that they don't know you. To them, you might seem like some random internet stalker, and if they're even slightly internet-savvy, they'll know that directly saying that is the fastest way to get their daughter to think they're total idiots. It may be that what she has said is entirely true, but it's probably it's not the entire truth. The only real way to clear this up, I think, is to attempt direct communication with them.

Even if you do get in touch with them, you have to understand that they'll likely still say 'no'. But at least by getting in touch with them, you'll have exhausted the last of your real options, and you can know that, as much as it hurts, you tried your best.

As to the second question.. I can't really say, sorry.



I met them at the end of March when we met up in Boston; they were there for her bro's parents weekend at college, and I was on my way back home through Logan airport. They seemed to tolerate me at least, so I don't think they're against me personally, regardless what type of guy I am. Mostly just the fact that their daughter is in a long distance relationship right now.


cdstephens, I don't post here much so feel free to take my advice with a grain of salt. But I live in an area with a high Asian population as well and this unfortunately doesn't sound too unusual... in fact, most high school students simply don't tell their parents at all that they're in a relationship. So I agree with Innis Cabal; you'll probably just have to tough it out :/ especially over the next half year or so until she gets her college applications in. When's your graduation in relation to her end of school? If it's around/before her finals time I can understand her parents' reaction, but if it's after her school lets out then she should be able to go, perhaps?

@v Editing for specifics, my area is mostly well-off first- or second-generation Asian families with traditional values. Mostly Chinese, I think, but I'm not sure how much.


"Asian parents" isn't really helpful, you know. If you specified where they were from and what social status they hold.

For example, wealthy Chinese families with traditionalist values will be very leery of any non-Chinese boy or girl in a relationship with their children. It's a cultural thing of ours.



Her parents came over from China a while ago cause of Communism and such. The way she described her parents and other Asians around the area's way of thinking seem to suggest they believe in traditional values. She still has school when she graduates, so yeah >.>



In general I would have been inclined to do the "don't do long-distance" speech, but as it turns out your issues have little to nothing to do with that anyway. Personally, I am of the opinion that her parents are her problem. If you decide to fly over to see her, make sure that she'll be able to see you. Either her parents agree, or she sneaks away or whatever, just make it clear that if you fly over to a closed door, you'll have a problem with that. Making that work with her parents isn't anything you can do anything about anyway. If she wants to come to your graduation but isn't willing to face her parents, then she's made her choice and you may want to think about what that means for you as a couple.

As for going all anxious-dependent when you miss a day's conversation, don't. For one, it's not good for you. For two, I noticed girls don't seem to like that (for long). You've got a life, she's got a life, and sometimes that means skipping a good night call.

She says that she'll eventually ask them, but when it's a better time (i.e. when she's doing a bit better in school and her parents aren't pissed). It's not that she'll never ask them, it's just that the fact that she's afraid they'll say no kinda says something about how much they probably don't like her being in a relationship.

I know getting anxious about something like that is bad, but I can't help myself. I'm a very obsessive and plan oriented person unfortunately. My mind just can't turn on a "don't care" switch for most things.


@cdstephens: Has your girlfriend tried making deals with her parents? If they're worried about her grades, an "I will study for X hours a day and/or keep my grades above Y - if I don't, complain away!" deal might make them a little more positive.
I'm not sure what to do about the "limiting yourself from other guys" argument. Is it because you're not Asian? (qua Sarco's post)

I'll also second the "get in touch with them" idea. My parents are (obviously) not your girlfriend's, but when I entered an LDR, my parents' one condition was that they'd meet him first. Just to confirm that he wasn't an internet predator. That always seemed very reasonable to me (I was 15 at the time).

As for getting anxious when she disappears... well, that is annoying. But if it's a common occurence, just remind yourself that it's been an entirely harmless disappearance the last 2471 times, so it's probably harmless this time as well.

Getting anxious when you miss a day... yeah, it's kinda normal, but it's still not very good. Aiming to talk every day is a good idea, but you will miss days. That's life. Getting anxious about it is just asking for sorrow.
Perhaps, if it really bothers you, try starting a tradition of sending a short, sweet text, just a "goodnight, hon <3" or something. It's some kind of contact, you'll know she's alive and still thinking of you, and it takes less than a minute from both of you.

That's a good idea with the texts, I'll consider it. As stated above, I have met them, but she hasn't met my parents. Fortunately, my parents frankly don't care (or at least that's what they claim) since I'm 18 and all.

As for the limiting herself from other guys, perhaps that even if it was short distance, her parents don't think I'm the best guy for her. Apparently most of her Asian friends that do date (somehow) date only Asians, and I happen to be 3/4 white, 1/4 Japanese, so that may have something to do with it maybe. I'll probably never know though.

[Sarco_Phage]

Okay, yeah, if they are traditionalist Chinese you may find yourself having a lot of problems with the parents. I can't really suggest anything to get around that besides hiding the relationship and even that is a losing game.

[Force]

So... uhm... Force has first date, ever, next week. Force is... slightly anxious (:smalleek:), and not sure if she'll see it as a date due to method of asking her, but is with member of opposite gender one-on-one over lunch, so will call it a first date.

...

*watches clock with great trepidation*

[Sarco_Phage]

It's a start, eh? What is this, high school? Don't worry about too much if it's just lunch together in the cafeteria, little things go a long way.

[Force]

College. I'm a sophomore.

...

Yes, I know it's a little late for a first date, but suffice it to say that my parents were (and continue to be) restrictive when it comes any encounters with members of the opposite sex whatsoever. As a good example: my 18-year-old sister's merely mentioning that she went out with her boyfriend that day will cause a stormy silence at the dinner table... which is good compared to the arguing that used to result.

The girl in question (I'll call her "C") is a member of my nursing "cohort", the group of nursing students who all get assigned to take the same classes at the same time. She's one of my partners when we do our once a week clinical time at one of the local nursing homes. She's a preacher's kid, I'm a missionary's kid, so I asked her one day as we were walking out of the nursing home "We both have similar backgrounds, but I don't know much about yours, and that makes me curious-- let's make a deal. You assuage my curiousity, I'll buy you lunch." She agreed, and today we set a date for next Friday, assuming work doesn't interfere.

[Trekkin]

She did all this crazy emotional stuff to him so there's no reason he can't do crazy emotional stuff back to her.


Actually, there is, in that I still respect her and don't want to antagonize her--and anyway, we weren't in a relationship per se. We were friends only, which makes this all the more confusing. Whatever's caused this, it's probably not a deliberate attempt to cause me pain or mess with my head, but a problem she honestly feels warrants this, and that makes me wonder what the heck happened.

As to the possibility of a restraining order, it's there, but hopefully unlikely. I've sent a (politely worded, kind, non-accusatory) apology for whatever happened via email, and that's all I'm doing unless I get a reply. It's also helpful that we live 1300 miles away, making it rather hard for her to be reminded of me inadvertently. Writing the apology itself has actually been most helpful; even if that's the end of everything, I can probably become fine with that rather more rapidly.

[Sarco_Phage]

Whadda pick up line, Force, keeping it casual, that's nice!

And like I said, it's a start. If you enjoy each other's company, suggest after Friday's lunch that you do it again some time. If she assents, you have the beginnings of a relationship!

[Jonesh]

I agree with Sarco_Phage, that's a good pick up line Force!

I think keeping the first date casual is of utmost importance, however, casual does not equal not flirting :smalltongue:
So if you're sitting there and you realize "Hey, she's interesting!", start flirting a little! :smallwink:

[cdstephens]

Okay, yeah, if they are traditionalist Chinese you may find yourself having a lot of problems with the parents. I can't really suggest anything to get around that besides hiding the relationship and even that is a losing game.

Well luckily for me her parents don't seem to have control over whether or not we're in a relationship (or act least choose to not act on it), since we are still in a relationship after all. Though apparently she did have a long talk with her dad about it where she had to defend me (her dad found out about 4 weeks later than her mom because she assumed her mom told him XD).

[Sarco_Phage]

Huh. Well, at least the parents haven't gone so far as to say NO YOU CANNOT SEE THAT BOY.

Have you done anything with the family yet? Ask your gf if she thinks it's the proper time for you to meet the folks, try winning them over.

[Starbuck_II]

College. I'm a sophomore.

Dude, I waited till Senior year of college before asking a girl out. Trust me you aren't that late.



The girl in question (I'll call her "C") is a member of my nursing "cohort", the group of nursing students who all get assigned to take the same classes at the same time. She's one of my partners when we do our once a week clinical time at one of the local nursing homes. She's a preacher's kid, I'm a missionary's kid, so I asked her one day as we were walking out of the nursing home "We both have similar backgrounds, but I don't know much about yours, and that makes me curious-- let's make a deal. You assuage my curiousity, I'll buy you lunch." She agreed, and today we set a date for next Friday, assuming work doesn't interfere.

Cool dude, got to start somewhere.
Watching Hitch helps. Remember she is already interested or she wouldn't have said yes.
So your job isn't that. Just don't do anything stupid (okay to act stupid when appropriate still), relax, and have a good time. Don't let it be nervous for you; remember she is human just like you.
Heck, being honest how you feel (even if it is just nervous) when you have nothing to say can work too.

[Sarco_Phage]

Dude, I waited till Senior year of college before asking a girl out. Trust me you aren't that late.

He's pretty late, you're just later.:smallamused:

It's not like it's some kind of race, anyway.

[Force]

Not a race, I just don't seem to be the norm around here. Heck, I know at least five people in my cohort of 43 who're engaged already (albeit at 22-24ish compared to my 19).

I can't judge how interested or uninterested she is-- I made it very clear that she could tell me to buzz off, but she's very sweet and I can't see her actually turning someone down for a first date unless they were a major ass (though she has one of those after her in a major way). I will admit I primed the pump by making a batch of chocolate-chip cookies for her birthday two weeks ago-- she has a major sweet tooth and I have yet to meet a girl who doesn't like my cookies. I'm just planning on taking things casual and being a toned-down version of myself. Any suggestions on things to specifically --not-- do?

[Vonriel]

The only thing I can say, Force, is, good luck. Also, it's not as uncommon as you think.. It's going to sound weird and will almost certainly lead to any advice I give being seen in a far different light, but I've yet to actually go on a date, and I'm 24. So don't feel too far behind the times, eh? :smallwink:


In one hand, it would be nice to just mess around, but in the other hand, I'd really like a relationship with at least potential for more, instead of a dead end like that. That combined with the fact that I'm not sure if I can shrug off watching her make out with other guys while being still involved with her, open-ended or not. Silly, I know, and potentially hypocritical, but there you go. Emotions for you.

Adumbration, that is neither silly nor hypocritical. You need to know your limits. You need to know whether or not you can handle that sort of relationship, so you can avoid it in the future, because you deserve to know what types of relationship you are emotionally capable of handling.

[Keld Denar]

Force, if you get a 2nd date, take her ice skating. It will be epic, and you will thank me for it. Just promise me you'll name your first born after me. Or at least your 3rd born, I'm not picky...

[absolmorph]

Force, if you get a 2nd date, take her ice skating. It will be epic, and you will thank me for it. Just promise me you'll name your first born after me. Or at least your 3rd born, I'm not picky...
This doesn't work if you don't know how to skate.

[Glass Mouse]

This doesn't work if you don't know how to skate.

Someone (probably Keld) listed all possible scenarios for skating. The point was, ice skating is good no matter your respective skating levels.

You're good, she's not: You get to teach her, which probably includes holding her hand and other such physical contact.
She's good, you're not: She gets to teach you, see above.
You're both good: You both get to show off and do cool stuff.
You're both bad: You can goof around and try to figure it out together.

Man, now I wanna go ice skating....

[Rawhide]

Man, now I wanna go ice skating....

Me too.

[Sholos]

College. I'm a sophomore.

I'm 25 going on 26 and have yet to be on a date where both parties thought of it as a date (as opposed to simply spending time with a member of the opposite sex). In addition, every girl I've ever asked out has said no. Trust me, you're far from being the biggest failure here. Heck, that's not even a failure. My social life (most specifically romantically speaking, but in general to a degree) is a good example of failure, but that's a story for a different thread.

On the topic of ice skating:

All scenarios are good, unless you're like me and your ankles start hurting (not just sore, but actually hurting) about 20 minutes in (and that's in figure skates).

[Vonriel]

Me too.

Curse you people for making me want to go ice skating!

Also, I second the idea of ice skating.

[Keld Denar]

Glass Mouse got it exactly right. Its like, the perfect date. It has NEVER failed for me.

[absolmorph]

Someone (probably Keld) listed all possible scenarios for skating. The point was, ice skating is good no matter your respective skating levels.

You're good, she's not: You get to teach her, which probably includes holding her hand and other such physical contact.
She's good, you're not: She gets to teach you, see above.
You're both good: You both get to show off and do cool stuff.
You're both bad: You can goof around and try to figure it out together.

Man, now I wanna go ice skating....
I used it, with the bolded scenario.
She felt awkward and didn't particularly enjoy the date.
... Though, I guess there was a second date, but still.

[Coidzor]

Learned quite potentially useful information about what kind of girl she was and whether you'd want to be in a relationship with her though.

[ZombyWoof]

Force, if you get a 2nd date, take her ice skating. It will be epic, and you will thank me for it. Just promise me you'll name your first born after me. Or at least your 3rd born, I'm not picky...
How about my second-born? My first (a daughter) is already going to be named Samus, but I could deal with a son named Keld :smallwink:

[Eadin]

I actually like the name "Keld". Has a nice ring to it...

[Force]

Sorry, Keld, but kids are pretty low on my priority list... Got a bunch of stuff I need to do that having kids would interfere with.

[Keld Denar]

Yay!!!

wait...

Awwwww!!!!

I never said it had to be tomorrow. Just remember, one day I will come to claim my reward...YOU WILL NOT BE PREPARED!!!!

PS, good luck Force!

[Serpentine]

At what point does one apologise for something? Is it a requirement that one be sorry, and/or wrong, or merely that someone feels you should?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

At what point does one apologise for something? Is it a requirement that one be sorry, and/or wrong, or merely that someone feels you should?

Well... as a Canadian, I say sorry all the time. So... my answer would be 'Yes'. :smallamused:

[Glass Mouse]

At what point does one apologise for something? Is it a requirement that one be sorry, and/or wrong, or merely that someone feels you should?

I know this is kinda hypocritical as I apologize for way too much all the time... but on principle, I think you should only say you're sorry if you actually are.

If you apologize when you don't think you should, you run the risk of ending up resenting the person who wants you to (especially if it becomes a pattern). Of course, if you want peace and the other person won't give in, a good compromise is: "I don't think my action was wrong, but I'm sorry it hurt you, and I respect your emotions, so I'll try not to act like that in the future."

Just in more elaborate terms :smalltongue:

[Trekkin]

At what point does one apologise for something? Is it a requirement that one be sorry, and/or wrong, or merely that someone feels you should?

I more or less automatically say I'm sorry even to relatively innocuous things. There was actually a time in my childhood where I'd apologize repeatedly and frantically (read: neurotically) for any perceived slight for minutes on end, and that's probably where I get my tendency to apologize even when I have no idea if anything's wrong. So...only the third.

[Trog]

At what point does one apologise for something? Is it a requirement that one be sorry, and/or wrong, or merely that someone feels you should?
It's a tricky business and depends on what one is apologizing for, really. There's an old saying that, in a relationship, you can be right or you can be happy. Basically it's a warning against trying to always be right because it will not foster happiness in your relationship.

Personally, I try to stick up for what I believe in and if it's not something I don't have a strong feeling for and there's a disagreement I pretty much roll with it. I always try to see the other person's side of things (when it's actually explained) and try to be empathetic as I can be, thus I do try and challenge myself to see it the other person's way too because it can sometimes lead me to learn something about myself if nothing else. And many times it leads to personal growth, though not necessarily in the same direction as the other person. Sometimes it can lead you away from them too. But that's life. *shrug*

You can have a disagreement over something and not be sorry for the stand you make but you can be sorry that it causes tension between the two of you. Which is more of a statement of "I'm sorry our differences are causing us tension" rather than "I'm wrong" or "You're wrong."

At a certain point in any relationship that lasts past, say, half a year or so, you start to run into things you take different stances on (as opposed to the initial phase where it seems you agree on everything, typically) so disagreements and discussions are bound to happen in any serious relationship so just try to find a comfortable place in it for the both of you, if you can.

Beyond that if you have somehow wronged the other person (or suspect you may have unwittingly), apologize for hurting the other person at the very least. You can always figure out what went wrong later after you stop the initial hurt feelings. Easier to admit wrong doing and reflect on things to decide how you really feel on it than to not apologize while you reflect and leave your partner still hurt.

[Vonriel]

This is going to sound harsh, but I have to say it, because it's something I feel strongly about ever since some ... person ... forced his way into my group of friends: If you don't feel any remorse for the actions you have taken, don't apologize, period. Why, you may ask? Well, I'll gladly share. This ... person ... is someone who really, truly, sincerely believes he is not wrong. Ever. Which conflicts with the pattern of yelling at people, raging at us when he loses at a video game, and absolute denial of any point other than his own in any argument in which he ever takes part. Whenever he does any of the above, the next day he'll apologize profusely at us, expecting that the words 'I'm sorry' will magically make anything he's done disappear and cause us to like him again. No, that's not a typo, I do mean that he apologizes *at* us, because it doesn't really matter what we say in response, he will keep apologizing until some sort of acceptance is said, even if it's as simple as 'whatever'.

As you can imagine, this person has led me to view apologies in a new light. I really do believe, as a result, that you should never apologize unless you acknowledge you've done wrong and are going to seek to do better; or, at least, seek to not repeat the action for which you are apologizing.

Unfortunately, this doesn't answer your question, does it? I'll attempt to answer in order. I think you should apologize the moment you honestly feel like you wronged someone. If you can't apologize just then, you should apologize the first chance you get to see them face to face, unless you are reasonably unable to see them for some large amount of time after the fact - a week or more, I'd say. To apologize, I think you do need to feel like you've done wrong. Otherwise, it cheapens the action, and the words are hollow. If you feel like you haven't done wrong, but the other person does, you should do what Glass Mouse said (And I quote): "I don't think my action was wrong, but I'm sorry it hurt you, and I respect your emotions, so I'll try not to act like that in the future."

[Serpentine]

I'd better point out that this is a friendship matter. My relationship issues are quite distinct (although he was involved too).
Ugh. I can't believe I'm having a fight about Facebook :smallyuk:

[Trog]

I'd better point out that this is a friendship matter. My relationship issues are quite distinct (although he was involved too).
Ugh. I can't believe I'm having a fight about Facebook :smallyuk:

Oh it's a friend thing? A Facebook friend thing? Meh. Apologize when/if you feel like it. :smalltongue: Trying to smooth things over though is usually a good idea but that doesn't always mean apologizing. Basically it's a judgement call on your part. *shrug*

[ZombyWoof]

At what point does one apologise for something? Is it a requirement that one be sorry, and/or wrong, or merely that someone feels you should?
Well let's put it this way. Saying "I'm sorry" when you are not, in fact, sorry is lying.

EDIT: and I'm a huge proponent of being honest.

[Sarco_Phage]

And yet sometimes it's necessary to save face or keep the peace, you know. You can't be all honest all the time; saying "I'm sorry" to your boyfriend(girlfriend, husband, wife) right after you've had a big fight might be lying now while you're angry, but if you don't make peace you'll be actually sorry later.

[ZombyWoof]

If you are ok with lying then you are ok with saying sorry when you are not. I'm not here to say what's right or what's wrong, I'm just boiling down the situation.

Ignore everything else about the situation and ask yourself, "Is it ok to lie to someone to make them feel a little better?"

If someone was with me and lied to me to make me feel better, I would be very upset with them if I ever found out. Because trust and honesty are very important to me. But that's me and not everyone is like me, and it's ok if they're not like me!

If she's asking me for advice about the matter? Don't say you're sorry. Go the route that Glass offered you. That's what I believe is correct.

[Serpentine]

Bah, I'm over it. My honours is going to ****, my Boy's not talking to me and I've had a headache for 3 days. I don't really care about my friend's hypocritically hypersensitive girlfriend right now - and dammit, I'm not sorry! Sarcasm is a legitimate response to regurgitated ignorance!

[ZombyWoof]

I agree with you wholeheartedly Ms. Serpentine

[Agamid]

insanely nervous!!

i'm going to see my boyfriend on the 21st for the first time since the 19th of october! he's currently planning what we can do that day and evening.
It will be the fourth actual date that we've been on (not counting skype dates).

i'm actually a little bit shaky thinking about it.

[insert expletive here with a very long, extended vowel]

Edit: no advice or comment needed, i just want to tell someone how incredibly nervous i am and hope that in doing so the edge will be taken off... hopefully...

[Force]

You're very nervous. In fact, insanely nervous. Breathe in through your nose, out through your mouth, and try to focus on something peaceful. Or go running for an hour.

[Coidzor]

Why are you nervous? You like him, he likes you, you're already together as a couple. I'm surprised you're not just having a night in to enjoy one another's company in relative solitude first, really. That seems like it'd relieve the built up tension of not seeing your significant other for over half of a year better than not seeing them when they get back but going out for a night on the town with them.

Actually, no, that's pretty bizarre actually that you're not seeing him before going on a date with him. Why is that? Does he live far away in addition to having been stationed overseas for 7 months?

[Jonesh]

Yo, so I said to my coworker a few days ago that we could meet each other early tomorrow so we'd have time to talk about the job before going to work.
I saw her tonight just a few minutes ago, we say hi, she signs on to MSN and I say we can continue talking there.
I ask her how she is doing, she says she is fine but tired and that she has to go now. We say goodbye.
Kind of annoying, because I always like talking to her and it felt kind of abrupt :smallsigh:

But hey, I think I got some kisses to cash in tomorrow. She said we weren't gonna kiss on the mouth but that might be because we're supposed to be working then and, well, it's kind of weird to talk about kissing with someone you haven't yet kissed.
I'm gonna flirt though and I am aiming for a proper kiss by the end of the day :smallamused:

Just a few more hours untill we see each other. I hope I can go to sleep... :smalleek:

[Sarco_Phage]

If you guys are just making beso (cheek-to-cheek kiss), and that's as far as it's gone, you might have found yourself in the inimitable friend zone, bro.

[Jonesh]

Well, it's kind of weird because when she first said she was gonna give me lots of kisses it was kind of... flirtatious.
And she does flirt, among other things she usually gives me lots of kissingface-smilies and kisses when chatting, she calls me petnames like, sweetie, honey, darling, cutie etc. etc. and most telling of all, she has both outright asked me if I was single and why plus that she said that she has never met a man like me before :smallcool:
Plus we haven't had any problems with touching each other the few times we've had met. Lastly, we've planned two dates as in "hey-i-like-you-we-should-see-a-movie-and-make-dinner-at-your-place"-date.
However, if I've learned one thing in my life then I've learned not to take stuff for granted.
I'm still kind of optmistic though.

Just a headsup, you're gonna catch some flak from some people here for your use of the word "friendzone" :smallwink:

[Sarco_Phage]

Ehh, I wouldn't worry about it. It's an actual zone, that has friends in it. Myself, I've never actually been "friend zoned", so to speak, because as you'll notice, most guys, even gay ones, aren't like that.

Anyway, yep, that's pretty flirtatious. I wouldn't set too much store by someone calling you "Darling" or "sweetie", but her behavior towards you seems very positive! Good luck, man.

[Jonesh]

Ehh, I wouldn't worry about it. It's an actual zone, that has friends in it. Myself, I've never actually been "friend zoned", so to speak, because as you'll notice, most guys, even gay ones, aren't like that.

Anyway, yep, that's pretty flirtatious. I wouldn't set too much store by someone calling you "Darling" or "sweetie", but her behavior towards you seems very positive! Good luck, man.

To be honest, I feel a little bit like I'm missing out by being straight. I feel that if I could be attracted to some guys like my close male friends, such a relationship like that might be far more laid back than with any girl I've known.
However, I feel no sexual attraction to guys, so eh :smalltongue:
About "friend zones", man I don't know. It seems overly simplistic and maybe a tad misogynistic. And that's all I can say about that :smalltongue:

And yes, by itself calling someone petnames like that isn't such a big deal even in Swedish (however, the translated word of "darling" or "älskling" as it is in Swedish has much more romantic connotations here and isn't used to be polite or nice like it is in... Man I dunno, the southern USA?) but combined with the other stuff, I think it's looking pretty good! :smallbiggrin:
So thanks, even though I think I don't need much luck now :smallcool:

[term1nally s1ck]

The 'friend zone' is a simple name for a fairly complex situation.

Basically, when two people are headed towards a relationship, there's tension (mostly sexual and romantic) that builds up between them. This keeps building up, until something 'snaps', and they get together to express the tension and feelings that built up.

However, if you don't do anything to keep the tension building, it will fade. What's left at that point, when you get along well enough as people to be in a relationship, but the sexual and romantic tension has faded to nothing on one side, is that whoever no longer feels that spark no longer feels like they'd want a relationship with that person, and there's no reason to change where they are right then, which is platonic friends.

That's what the friend zone is. It's also sometimes used when someone never felt any attraction to the other from the start, and the other person did nothing that might change that. Similar end result (one person has no interest in anything more than platonic friendship)

Usually, women tend to lose interest when there's no buildup of tension faster than men do. This is imo based on genetics, and is not a hard and fast rule, so don't call me on it saying it's not always true, I know. Doesn't mean it's not true on average.

[ZombyWoof]

"Friends zone" is either a really stupid idea or a simple way of expression "she doesn't like me like that."

The "stupid idea" friends zone is basically the idea that a girl, upon finding that she has some things in common with you and you not making a move, will suddenly decide that you're "just friends" and "like a brother" and therefore will never do anything with you and you are LOST FOREVER!

That's patently ridiculous for pretty much two reasons: 1) plenty of healthy relationships have developed out of friendships, and 2) no girl worth her salt is going to "dislike" you because you're nice, friendly, kind, and fun to be around. The whole friend's zone concept hangs on one particular theory: the more a girl likes you, the less attractive you become. Oh and by the way? That theory is massively FALSE.

The simple expression is more like this: "Ah, I was friends zone'd" to mean "she doesn't really like me. Kind of sucks, to be honest, because I was really hoping to date her." It cuts out the wordiness of saying "So it turns out that we have a lot of things in common! Also she's really cute and I'd like to date her, but unfortunately she doesn't really think I'm all that attractive. She's looking for a guy who's more like XYZ and I'm more like WTF. In the end I think she wants to be friends because she really enjoys my company, but we're lacking that little "spark" that would make it a relationship."
warning: the following is tongue-in-cheek
We're guys. Most of our communication is through visceral "ughs" and "mmms" and "yups." Wordiness doesn't come naturally to us. So instead of "So, fair chap, how did your endeavor to court the wonderful Miss Woof avail you? Are you two vehemently connecting certain areas of less-than-stellar aesthetic property?" and responding with "Unfortunately not! To my great dismay, she rather enjoys the time we play croquet together and has offered me many walks across her garden to view the beautiful plants she has cultivated, but at this time she is not interested (nor will she be for the forseeable future) in a courtship with as fine an upstanding gentleman as I. Instead she believes it best that we maintain our cordial interactions without attempting to develop them into something more."

Instead we say

"Yo, how'd it go?" "Friends zone." "That's rough." "Mmmm." "Wanna break something?" "Ungh."

[term1nally s1ck]

Relationships only ever develop out of friendships if you maintain at least some degree of tension building. There has to be some teasing, or some flirting, or something to keep that spark alive.

If you do nothing to keep the idea alive, I guarantee you your chance will be lost.

(At the same time, if you amp up the tension too much, but don't actually make a move, you may well lose your chance as well. Having said that, the woman will almost always make a move of her own by then. Just don't brush her off due to nerves.)

[Starbuck_II]

"Friends zone" is either a really stupid idea or a simple way of expression "she doesn't like me like that."

The "stupid idea" friends zone is basically the idea that a girl, upon finding that she has some things in common with you and you not making a move, will suddenly decide that you're "just friends" and "like a brother" and therefore will never do anything with you and you are LOST FOREVER!

But that was how my last date worked out. You mean I wasted 2 weeks as "just friends" when I could have just asked her out (if I had a plan)?



The simple expression is more like this: "Ah, I was friends zone'd" to mean "she doesn't really like me. Kind of sucks, to be honest, because I was really hoping to date her." It cuts out the wordiness of saying "So it turns out that we have a lot of things in common! Also she's really cute and I'd like to date her, but unfortunately she doesn't really think I'm all that attractive. She's looking for a guy who's more like XYZ and I'm more like WTF. In the end I think she wants to be friends because she really enjoys my company, but we're lacking that little "spark" that would make it a relationship."

But it is possible she friend zoned because she does like you but you not making a move unsciously hurt her (people are weird that way).
They expect results when they do stuff. Not getting those results upsets them.
You no make move = bad. (granted you have to make move right way too)


Instead we say

"Yo, how'd it go?" "Friends zone." "That's rough." "Mmmm." "Wanna break something?" "Ungh."

Actually, I think it has more to do with fact that girls and guys are fragile beings.
They don't want to be stringed along unless they see their endevours leading somewhere where they wish.
So they might say, "let's be just friends" (friend zoned) when they actually mean, "chase me a little here or I won't want to be more than just friends that you treating me now".
Now that depends on if she really liked you, but you did something wrong and she felt hurt (obviously not going to tell you what).

Even if friend zoned you can still attempt to test the waters with actually asking her out. Then the ball is back in her court to prove if she really meant it.
Worst thing that can happen is she says no. She really meant just friends.
Granted it might be best to ease into it with a no stress thing like a walk in the park.

[DeadManSleeping]

So they might say, "let's be just friends" (friend zoned) when they actually mean, "chase me a little here or I won't want to be more than just friends that you treating me now".

Of course, "let's just be friends" can also mean "I really have no interest in you and the idea of going out with you sincerely offends/disgusts me", and there's no way of distinguishing between the two. This is a pretty stupid tactic, if you ask me.

I'm not saying you're wrong, of course. I'm sure plenty of people use it (in fact, I know for a fact that they do). But it's still stupid.

On a related note, it's hard to ask someone out when you feel guilty for even thinking about doing so. I swear, I have the strangest complexes that will never have names of their own.

[Starbuck_II]

Of course, "let's just be friends" can also mean "I really have no interest in you and the idea of going out with you sincerely offends/disgusts me", and there's no way of distinguishing between the two. This is a pretty stupid tactic, if you ask me.

True, you have to take a leap of faith there.
But, how can you be offended by being asked out by a friend? That seems so weird.
Sure, you might make sure on the date that you just want to hang and not "make out" (insert whatever you kids do now adays) but I can't understand being offended by a friend. It isn't like they forced you on the date.


I'm not saying you're wrong, of course. I'm sure plenty of people use it (in fact, I know for a fact that they do). But it's still stupid.

On a related note, it's hard to ask someone out when you feel guilty for even thinking about doing so. I swear, I have the strangest complexes that will never have names of their own.

Dude, please, elaborate. What did you think you did that could make you feel guilty?
No one has the right to make you feel guilty unless you want to feel that way. So explain if you can. Talking might help.

[ZombyWoof]

Ok so here's the deal.


But that was how my last date worked out. You mean I wasted 2 weeks as "just friends" when I could have just asked her out (if I had a plan)?
Yeah if you had asked her out from the get go you probably would have gotten a "yes."



But it is possible she friend zoned because she does like you but you not making a move unsciously hurt her (people are weird that way).
They expect results when they do stuff. Not getting those results upsets them.
If we're talking about something occurring over years, then yeah. If she is suddenly not attracted to you because you waited a week or two (or even a month) of knowing her before asking her out, then that's the sign of someone who's probably not stable enough to be in a long term relationship. If she's hurt because you didn't ask her out then she needs to grow up.



Actually, I think it has more to do with fact that girls and guys are fragile beings.
They don't want to be stringed along unless they see their endevours leading somewhere where they wish.
So they might say, "let's be just friends" (friend zoned) when they actually mean, "chase me a little here or I won't want to be more than just friends that you treating me now".
As a screening process, what this tells you is that she is dishonest and uncomfortable talking to you about her feelings. It also tells you that she's really into mind-games. Both of these are for me major red flags.


Now that depends on if she really liked you, but you did something wrong and she felt hurt (obviously not going to tell you what).
If I hurt someone and they refuse to tell me what I did to hurt them, why on earth would I even want them as a friend?


Even if friend zoned you can still attempt to test the waters with actually asking her out. Then the ball is back in her court to prove if she really meant it.
Worst thing that can happen is she says no. She really meant just friends.
Granted it might be best to ease into it with a no stress thing like a walk in the park.
That doesn't make any sense at all. But yes, if you ask her out and she says "I think of you as a friend" then the ball is in her court to come to you if she ever wants you. That's not really an insight though. That's how relationships work.


As for Terminally Sick: relationships are not, nor will they ever be, an exact science. Saying that something happens in "all relationships" is really silly, or even "all relationships of x type." As simple as people are, they bury their simplicity under levels of complexity. They have feelings that can get hurt and what hurts them varies from person to person, so no. I reject your thesis that every "friends -> relationship" has to do with some sort of tension building up and breaking.

[Themrys]

But it is possible she friend zoned because she does like you but you not making a move unsciously hurt her (people are weird that way).
They expect results when they do stuff. Not getting those results upsets them.
You no make move = bad. (granted you have to make move right way too)


If being hurt really had such effects, my life would be so much easier. Unfortunately, it doesn't.
Being consciously hurt only helps in the long run...not a few weeks.

[Sarco_Phage]

So they might say, "let's be just friends" (friend zoned) when they actually mean, "chase me a little here or I won't want to be more than just friends that you treating me now".

Eesh, I hope you're steeled against future disappointment in life. Quite a bit of it, if this is how you think.

[Starbuck_II]

Eesh, I hope you're steeled against future disappointment in life. Quite a bit of it, if this is how you think.

Expecting Disappointment is normal for me. I'm more surprised when things go my way.

[DeadManSleeping]

True, you have to take a leap of faith there.
But, how can you be offended by being asked out by a friend? That seems so weird.
Sure, you might make sure on the date that you just want to hang and not "make out" (insert whatever you kids do now adays) but I can't understand being offended by a friend. It isn't like they forced you on the date.


Dude, please, elaborate. What did you think you did that could make you feel guilty?
No one has the right to make you feel guilty unless you want to feel that way. So explain if you can. Talking might help.

You're taking seriously something I said in a lighthearted manner, but I'll answer anyway.

Basically, despite everything that's changed over the years, I (and I imagine many people like me) am stuck with the viewpoint that I am so unattractive that dating me would be such a horrific task that even being asked to do it is an offense. Comparable to, say, making out with the rear end of a corpse. Yes, I'm perfectly aware that it's a ridiculous viewpoint. I have plenty of rationale and evidence that I'm moderately attractive and pleasant. However, like most brain issues, knowledge doesn't really fix them. I am aware, for instance, that I risk less by sitting near a honeybee than I risk by letting a 230 lb guy throw me over his shoulder for fun (and I mean throw as in to the ground). However, I am much more likely to do the latter, 'cause stinging insects unnerve me. For another example, many claustrophobes are perfectly aware that there is no inherent danger or risk in enclosed spaces, and that they should not suffer any breathing issues or inability to escape a harmful situation simply by standing in a crowded room. They still freak out.

Honestly, I'm still able to ask people out if I really, really, REALLY want to (and I could punch a beehive if I reallyx3 needed to). It's not crippling, exactly. But it's still a complex, thus my statement.

It's been months since I've made overtures to anyone, and I'm pretty well over hating myself for it. It's just a problem that I am always aware that I have, even when it hasn't come up for a while.

I imagine that the best way to get over it would be to have an active romance life, but unlike exposing a claustrophobe to subway cars, it's not exactly that simple of a matter.

Vaguely makes me wish I were in a culture where you were told who you should try dating. Only vaguely, though.

[Sarco_Phage]

Vaguely makes me wish I were in a culture where you were told who you should try dating. Only vaguely, though.

It's called "getting set up". Don't you have any friends who can do that for you? Set you up on a date with someone they think is appropriate? That way you don't have to break the ice yourself.

[Starbuck_II]

Honestly, I'm still able to ask people out if I really, really, REALLY want to (and I could punch a beehive if I reallyx3 needed to). It's not crippling, exactly. But it's still a complex, thus my statement.

Well, you can at least, that is a start.


It's been months since I've made overtures to anyone, and I'm pretty well over hating myself for it. It's just a problem that I am always aware that I have, even when it hasn't come up for a while.

I imagine that the best way to get over it would be to have an active romance life, but unlike exposing a claustrophobe to subway cars, it's not exactly that simple of a matter.

Actually, that is a suggestion to get over a phobia is total immersion therapy (as total immerse them in their fear). Done by professionals as that is dangerous stuff for an ametuer to attempt.



Vaguely makes me wish I were in a culture where you were told who you should try dating. Only vaguely, though.


Blind Dates? I hear they work (sometimes). Never tried them.

[DeadManSleeping]

I'm the kind of person who doesn't ask for help (from people I know) no matter what he's doing. I'm also the kind of person who doesn't want to inflict his romance life upon other people. Asking my friends for help would probably be harder for me than chatting up a cute stranger and getting her number.

Also, apparently they suck at setting people up. A friend of mine, years ago, thought I would go well with a mutual female friend of ours. He, apparently, attempted to push us together (I never noticed).

Those two are getting married in July (or is it June? I need to check on that...) :smallamused:
(Not that the two of us would have ever gotten together anyway. I was never interested in her, and I also reminded her of the guy she'd broken up with only a couple months before meeting me. Talk about "never going to happen")

I've also contemplated dating websites, but I think those cost money? Besides, I know I'd never be on the offensive (messaging other people first), and the likelihood of me being messaged is probably no higher than the likelihood of me attracting the interest of a live female (based on my track record, pretty dang low). Doesn't seem worthwhile to me. Of course, that's not to diss dating sites. They actually DO work, believe it or not. It's just...they only work for some types of people. My issues get in the way as much there as they do in meatspace.

[term1nally s1ck]

As for Terminally Sick: relationships are not, nor will they ever be, an exact science. Saying that something happens in "all relationships" is really silly, or even "all relationships of x type." As simple as people are, they bury their simplicity under levels of complexity. They have feelings that can get hurt and what hurts them varies from person to person, so no. I reject your thesis that every "friends -> relationship" has to do with some sort of tension building up and breaking.

No sexual or romantic tension = no relationship. That scenario is absurd on concept. You're talking about two people going 'eh, I don't find you attractive, and I have no romantic feeling for you, but screw it lets get together.'

If that happens to someone, it's not a relationship, it's two people who want to be seen as in a relationship, and I'd lay money they don't actually do anything like being in a relationship, just the label.

[Sarco_Phage]

No sexual or romantic tension = no relationship. That scenario is absurd on concept. You're talking about two people going 'eh, I don't find you attractive, and I have no romantic feeling for you, but screw it lets get together.'

My people and their love for arranged marriages would like to have a word with you.

[term1nally s1ck]

Not a relationship that grew from friendship.

[Sarco_Phage]

Not a relationship that grew from friendship.

It starts out pretty much neutral, grows to friendship, and then, perhaps, to actual affection and love. Like I've said before, relationships are more akin to a job than anything else. Two parties will have to be actively working at their relationship for it to be fruitful, healthy, and stable.

[term1nally s1ck]

If it's growing from friendship into anything else, there will be some form of attraction and romance there. Arranged and married already, or not.

[Drascin]

Yeah, I get what you're saying with the weird hangups thing, DMS. I personally would never be able to "just ask someone out" even if I actually could feel attracted to someone I don't know well. Partly because, well, I have a really, really good memory - I still remember all the times I have messed up from second grade upwards in vivid detail - and when you can never forget them, rejections kind of suck :smalltongue:. Intellectually, I know it really shouldn't be a problem, it's just a thing that happens, but... well. As you say, a claustrophobe knowing closed spaces aren't a problem doesn't solve much. And partly because, as you mentioned, I'd never be able to be "on the offensive". I keep getting the feeling I'm being a damn nosy nuisance whenever I talk to someone that didn't talk to me first.

Or, rather, well, let's be honest here. If I really wanted, I probably could - the act itself is not hard. I'm an actor, a roleplayer, and have a weird self-control - I can make myself do pretty much anything if I'm convinced it's necessary, up to and including handling stuff I'm outright terrified of. It's just I would be kicking myself over the head for weeks afterwards soon as my usual personality came back :smallbiggrin:

[Syka]

I know off the top of my head that Serpentine gives really good advice and is very good about keeping her PM box empty (glares at Syka).

Yeeeah...sorry 'bout that. >< It's been remedied.


In other (amusing) news, came across old notes from a previous girl Boyfriend dated. No, I was not snooping. :smalltongue: We were looking for something unrelated, and I asked him permission before reading.

It was nothing very private, but I did feel a bit bad 'cause she seemed to really like him and it ended...not so well. Also made me consciously realize why Boyfriend and I work so well together. I don't blame him at all for still having them (especially since they were thrown in a junk drawer with a bunch of other random stuff lol), particularly since I just came across an old photo album with a bunch of pictures of me and Ex.


Ah, old flames. How you reminisce.

[ZombyWoof]

So I wandered out with a buddy for sushi a little while ago. There was this... very cute girl out with her friends eating sushi at about 10 o'clock, back corner. I told my buddy I was going to get her number.

Technically, I did not. She is; however, purpotedly interested in hanging out and took my number, with her and her friends saying they were very impressed at my bravado (she said it was flattering). Unfortunately she has a boyfriend.

To that my friend said, "Hey, just because there's a goalie..."

I lol'd :smallamused:

[Starbuck_II]

Go ZombyWoof, good job.
Were the friends any cute? I mean if they were all impressed, could try them. :smallbiggrin:

But either way she got your number so she was interested.

[Sarco_Phage]

Expecting Disappointment is normal for me. I'm more surprised when things go my way.

Well that's depressing. Thanks for depressing me, you... depressor. :smalltongue:

[ZombyWoof]

Were the friends any cute? I mean if they were all impressed, could try them. :smallbiggrin:

They did not appear to be my type but I was minorly focused at that point. I get tunnelvision sometimes.

[DeadManSleeping]

They did not appear to be my type but I was minorly focused at that point. I get tunnelvision sometimes.

It's a valid predator strategy. When faced with herd animals, a predator has to single one out and stay focused, because otherwise they can't deal with all the potential prey. This strategy also gets the herd to separate from the chosen target to save themselves, making the chase easy.

The major difference between women and gazelles is that gazelles can sense you from further off.The other major difference is that it is actually possible that at some point in my life I might be able to bag a gazelle :P

[ZombyWoof]

Also gazelles are faster and can typically jump higher.

EDIT: Also in this case I was aiming for the most-fit of the bunch rather than the least-fit.

[Sarco_Phage]

It's a valid predator strategy. When faced with herd animals, a predator has to single one out and stay focused, because otherwise they can't deal with all the potential prey. This strategy also gets the herd to separate from the chosen target to save themselves, making the chase easy.

The major difference between women and gazelles is that gazelles can sense you from further off.The other major difference is that it is actually possible that at some point in my life I might be able to bag a gazelle :P

WELL THE THREAD JUST GOT A WHOLE LOT CREEPIER.

I mean, I know it's hard to approach a large group of the opposite sex if you have amorous intentions, but don't listen to Brad Pitt. You are not lions.

[ZombyWoof]

I managed to talk to her by pouncing on her and sinking my teeth into her neck so I dunno what you're talking about!
I actually broke the touch barrier by lightly tapping her shoulder.

[DeadManSleeping]

Ah, but I do have a mighty roar. GrrrRRRRrrr... :smallamused:

DMSClaimer: If you are actually approaching people as prey, you are most likely doing something wrong. Healthy relationships are mutual!

[ZombyWoof]

I agree, it's much better if she bites back :smallwink:

[Serpentine]

Ehh, I wouldn't worry about it. It's an actual zone, that has friends in it. Myself, I've never actually been "friend zoned", so to speak, because as you'll notice, most guys, even gay ones, aren't like that.You mean, guys don't have friends? Or guys are so desperate to bang anything that comes along that they'll never turn anyone down?
Either way, I question your premise.

[Sarco_Phage]

No, I mean I've never had a male crying shoulder or confidante. It's sad, really. :/

(no, not even my past boyfriends).

[Starbuck_II]

They did not appear to be my type but I was minorly focused at that point. I get tunnelvision sometimes.

I get that: just a thought. :smalltongue:

[DeadManSleeping]

You mean, guys don't have friends? Or guys are so desperate to bang anything that comes along that they'll never turn anyone down?
Either way, I question your premise.

Single men are far less likely to turn down a request for a date than single women are. FAR less likely. But I wouldn't go so far as to say, '99 times out of 100 a guy will say yes to a date from someone he wasn't really pursuing at the time'.

And there happens to be a lot outside "just friends" which doesn't immediately fall under the word "bang". I may not agree that men never wall out women completely from relationships (I guarantee you that there are girls I'm friends with that I'd turn down), but an ad absurdium argument is not at all called for here.

[Serpentine]

He appeared to be suggesting that males just plain don't have "just friends", or that they don't have people they're not interested in going out with, or something, which I find highly unlikely.
No, I mean I've never had a male crying shoulder or confidante. It's sad, really. :/

(no, not even my past boyfriends).What does that have to do with the so-called "friend zone"?

[Sarco_Phage]

What does that have to do with the so-called "friend zone"?

It is a zone, with friends.

You see, in the purported friend zone, a woman is comfortable enough with a man to, for example, cry on his shoulder, without any fear (hopefully) of him taking it the wrong way, because she is "off-limits" by virtue of his being in the friend-zone. Because I am gay, I am in the safe-zone by default.

However, I have never been able to achieve the friend-zone (or brozone, I suppose) with a man.

[Serpentine]

You mean, "by virtue of him being a friend". There is no so-called "zone" necessary.

[Sarco_Phage]

Hence the "purported" tag appended to the friend-zone. It is not necessarily a Real Thing, but most men believe in it.

[absolmorph]

It's a valid predator strategy. When faced with herd animals, a predator has to single one out and stay focused, because otherwise they can't deal with all the potential prey. This strategy also gets the herd to separate from the chosen target to save themselves, making the chase easy.

The major difference between women and gazelles is that gazelles can sense you from further off.The other major difference is that it is actually possible that at some point in my life I might be able to bag a gazelle :P
It's somewhat scary that the concepts in this post are actually useful for romantic pursuits.


I agree, it's much better if she bites back :smallwink:
So, so much.

[Serpentine]

Hence the "purported" tag appended to the friend-zone. It is not necessarily a Real Thing, but most men believe in it.Your initial use was just the way these "most men" use it, apparentlly in earnest.

[ZombyWoof]

You mean, guys don't have friends? Or guys are so desperate to bang anything that comes along that they'll never turn anyone down?
Well *I* don't have any friends! </teasing>

Thinking about it, the female friends I wouldn't at least see if there was something there were, historically, few and far between. I guess I never really considered dating my closest friends (except one of them). But looking back I wonder if that's because the feelings were pushed down? I don't really know.

I do know that I've met girls I have no interest in after talking to them shortly, but by and large these ladies are not my friends at all.

[Sarco_Phage]

Your initial use was just the way these "most men" use it, apparentlly in earnest.

I was also talking like a frat boy, yes. It happens from time to time. :smallamused:

[Serpentine]

Hrmp. Alright. I'd rather avoid perpetuating that ridiculous myth, anyway.

[DeadManSleeping]

It's somewhat scary that the concepts in this post are actually useful for romantic pursuits.

That is the thrust of my joke, sir, yes. :smallamused: Hehe "thrust"

Question very very distantly related to this thread: what's the best way to figure out someone's age if you're the kind of person who's never accurate to within closer than 10 years by visuals? In the USofA, at least, it's generally no less than awkward to just straight-up ask without a conversation where age is already a continuing topic, and can be downright rude. Tips and tricks?

[Vella_Malachite]

Hey guys. Just popping by - I have a question/problem, but it's not board appropriate. Would anyone happen to have a kindly open PM box?

[ZombyWoof]

I'm available. Sup?

[term1nally s1ck]

*Has listening ability and PM space*

EDIT:60 second rule ninjas.

[DeadManSleeping]

I have an open PM box and a highly unique brand of wisdom :smallwink:

[Trog]

On "The Friend Zone":

It exists. But only in the minds of men and boys who think they are in it.

Women want a good man and all of them feel they deserve someone special - someone better than ordinary. Someone who might even fight to have them, perhaps. Why would any male think for a moment that a woman would want a guy who is too afraid to confront even her? Is that manly? Is that the kind of treatment she deserves? The type of man she deserves? No.

If you think you're "in the friend zone" it's because you need to man up or look elsewhere. Period. You are doing nothing but branding yourself poorly not only in her eyes but in the eyes of many other women as well.

[Serpentine]

Heh. I might need to add that to my siglink :smalltongue:

[ZombyWoof]

... man. Even though that girl at the sushi joint was taken, the fact that she still wanted my number to hang out did wonders for my self esteem, as did 4 girls admiring me at once for randomly coming up to them in the middle of a restaraunt to compliment one of them and ask them out in the middle of all of them.

I think maybe I shouldn't push my luck and try that again, but :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: I left a great impression on four people, one of whom is probably still smiling about it.

[Serpentine]

I tried to do that, but he ran away and I haven't seen him since :smallfrown:
Anyway, good on you, and I'm glad they were so nice about it :smallsmile:

[ZombyWoof]

I'm never going to hear from them again because that's just how my life works, but :smallbiggrin:

*is proud of himself*

EDIT: Really? he RAN AWAY? You're not, you know, THAT intimidating! Well I mean, I guess if he suffered from ophidiophobia he might have some cause...

[Serpentine]

Weeeell, it was more of a hasty "well, I'd better get going..." thing.

[Trog]

Heh. I might need to add that to my siglink :smalltongue:
Feel free.

[Gaelbert]

Curious: Does it count as the friend zone if both individuals are happy with staying in the friend zone? Or is the "friend zone" only for situations where one individual wants to be friends and the other wants more?

[Serpentine]

The "Friend Zone" is when a guy* just can't consider the possibility that maybe she's just not interested in him, and that therefore it must be because they're friends.
So, no, the way it's normally used there isn't a "mutual friend-zoning". It's him moping after her and groping at reasons why she isn't reciprocating.


*or girl, potentially, but I've only heard it coming from guys.

[Trog]

Curious: Does it count as the friend zone if both individuals are happy with staying in the friend zone? Or is the "friend zone" only for situations where one individual wants to be friends and the other wants more?

You can be friends with an attractive member of the opposite sex, sure. Friend zone always seems to be a lament for unrequited/unrevealed feelings. So it's the latter of your statements if the one who wants more is either: 1. Afraid to express their feelings. Or 2. Unable to accept the obvious hopelessness of a romance occurring.

[Gaelbert]

So the "friend zone" is not a value neutral thing, someone (the complainer) generally considers it to be bad?
And another, somewhat more general question. Why are women less likely to consider themselves "friend zoned" than men? What's the difference there?

[Serpentine]

I think it has something to do with the (at least perceived) difference in "fussiness" of the sexes with regards to partner choice. You know*, given an opportunity any one guy will probably get with any girl who shows an interest, while girls on the whole generally won't.
Which kinda makes me wonder at the logic of the Friend-Zoners, do they think that basically a girl will get with anyone, except friends or something? :smallconfused:

(although, note that apparently, though men are "less fussy" when it comes to casual hook-ups, they're supposedly just as fussy as women when it comes to life-partners).

Diagram, made by me:
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/7/26/128931443531241516.png

One of the origins of this idea, the so-called "Ladder Theory (http://www.laddertheory.com/)".

*Not necessarily what I believe.

[ZombyWoof]

The "Friend Zone" is when a guy* just can't consider the possibility that maybe she's just not interested in him, and that therefore it must be because they're friends.
So, no, the way it's normally used there isn't a "mutual friend-zoning". It's him moping after her and groping at reasons why she isn't reciprocating.

Mutual friend-zoning is possible you just don't complain about it. Basically, "friends zone" is when one person wants to be friends and the other expressly doesn't and would prefer to be genderfriends.

In the circles I run it's more of a tongue-in-cheek lament, "Aaaah I got friends zone'd" that's meant to communicate quickly and succinctly the idea that there's a level of relationship somewhere between acquaintances and lovers, and that a gentleman or lady and another gentleman or lady are somewhere between those two points while one of the gentlemen or ladies would prefer they be at "lover" standpoint.

For example, for a while I mights say I was "friends zoned" by my friend because I wanted more and she didn't.

Apparently there are some people out there who think that ladies (and i suspect gentlemen) classify the people they meet into two categories; would do, would not do. That seems... silly and massively oversimplified to me. Just as an example of other categories that might exist: would do but regret, would do if massively drunk, and wouldn't do unless she wanted it to be a committed and exclusive and ongoing thing.

Of course it's easier and smarter to do away with this whole "categorizing relationships" bullcrap anyways and just explain how you feel. For example, I believe that Absolmorph is a very attractive and kind young gentleman who I'd love to play a rousing game of pokemon with, but would rather not touch pocket monsters with, as it were.

Edit: I've always held that the flaw of the "friends zone" way of thinking was that it was solely based on the idea that girls slowly grow to dislike everyone the more they know them, and that if you are nice to a girl she will decide that you are somehow unfit for mating or whatever.

Which is stupid.

Now, it MAY be true for some women (and these women are pretty easy to tell, they hold the dream of "fixing" the man they are with) and for THOSE women there is very little help that you can give until they grow up. But frankly you're much better off NOT dating someone who has that view of relationships (that it's her job to "fix" the man she's with).

[Trog]

I think it's worth noting that the friends zone is often a way to project onto the rejecting female that something is wrong with her in not choosing him. It's never "I must not be good enough for her" or "she just doesn't want me" - both of which would be accurate statements but involve a blow to the guy's ego that he seemingly cannot handle - instead it's "I'd be the perfect guy for her but she ___." Fill in the blank there with her "problem." Dates "jerks" (i.e. all other guys but him), "doesn't yet realize how great I am" (obviously 9_9), etc.

[Gaelbert]

I'm learning a lot tonight. And so does this occur in relations between LGB very often? Or is it solely a heterosexual situation?

[Serpentine]

I've only heard it in a heterosexual relationship*. It seems to be founded on a "misunderstanding between the sexes", but I don't know for sure that it doesn't happen in same-sex relationships.


*that is, between male and female. Presume it could happen with bisexuals in a male-female r'ship

[ZombyWoof]

I would assume it happens in the LGB community as well.

EDIT: It's startling how close LGB is to KGB both in the alphabet and the QWERTY keyboard. THIS BEARS INVESTIMAGATION!

[Trog]

I'm learning a lot tonight. And so does this occur in relations between LGB very often? Or is it solely a heterosexual situation?
Well see... and this is my take on it, they may be others. But my take on the friends zone is that it exists for both sexes but with different expectations and consequences.

What I mean by this is that if a woman is friends with a guy and has a crush on him and hopes that said friend will start dating her instead this is... to my understanding... fairly normal and accepted on all sides. Most crushes happen from more of a distance though. When you fall for a friend is when it most often happens on both sides I think (speculation here - I've never been in the friends zone and have certainly never been a woman in it :smalltongue:). Anyway, this is accepted for the most part because women are traditionally the passive ones being asked out - the ones pursed. Some women might rail against this "stereotype" but, in my experience, it's a generality that is still very much true. And there' nothing wrong with that - there is a lot of power and sexuality that goes with it so it's a good role and not in the least a powerless one. Whereas with men expecting to be pursued while being passive and close and available is, inherently, non-manly. "Non-manly" in this case meaning non-pursuing and non-alpha.

In LGB... I guess it's all relevant to the individuals involved? Certainly gender roles have a much wider variety such that traditionally male or female (pursuing/pursued) roles are blurred or even the opposite of the norm. So honestly I don't know how this sort of behavior is seen in LGB settings. It's a bit outside my area of expertise, if you will.

I will say, however, in all cases you are best off being as clear as you can about your feelings/desires. For the sake of having a chance of establishing something, for the sake of you getting an answer to the question of whether or not you two would work, and for your own sake. If you're pursuing a lost cause it's just wasting your time. For men in the active pursuing/traditional male role, traditionally, this means asking them out. For women, traditionally, it means sending clear signals of interest and making every advance short of asking them out.

Each of us decide what role we want to play and we need to accept the consequences of said roles, in short. Avoiding the consequences (through blaming and the friend zone excuse) of the role you have chosen is a poor choice for all involved, I think.

[Vonriel]

I think societal pressures can't be ignored, either. Everywhere you look, there is a lot of pressure on a guy to be with a girl, to be .. doing the deed, so to speak .. with a girl, what have you. I've actually been feeling a lot lately like I need to find a girlfriend, even though I don't exactly know why. And this theory also ties into what Trog said; when a guy can't seem to find a girl to have a relationship with, it feels like he's viewed as inferior in some way by those around him. As a result, he wants to shift the blame off of himself and onto the girl in question.

I imagine since there's not as much in the media about the other sorts of relationships (or other point of view in a relationship, sad to say... or maybe I'm just oblivious to it) there isn't as much pressure and you won't see this sort of behavior.

I don't know, though, maybe I'm just over thinking this and making stuff up again.

[absolmorph]

I toss people into the Friend Zone all the time, and some of my female friends have put me in theirs, too.
I just define it as "friend with whom a romantic relationship ain't gonna happen", not "friend and thus undesirable romantic companion".
There's also the Pursuit Zone, which holds the people I'm currently pursuing for a romantic relationship or am willing to pursue.
Between those is the Flirtation Zone, which holds the people who I'm on the fence about and won't really pursue, but may take an opportunity to go out with. And, as it says on the tin, I flirt with. Not entirely joking flirting, like what happens with my close friends regardless of where they fall, but somewhat legitimate, hint-dropping, response-analyzing, feeling-things-out flirtation.

The zone that a person is in can shift over time, so someone in the Friend Zone now could end up in the Pursuit Zone in a month, and vice versa.

So, really, the problem is with how people use the term; the Friend Zone does exist, and not just as Trog explained (which is what the typical usage does, in fact, mean).

[SaintRidley]

I've always understood, and used this as the basis of my understanding of being friend-zoned in my life, friend zoning to occur when one person has a romantic interest in the other and the object of that interest declines on the basis of "I like you as a friend, but I don't like you that way."

Did someone go and expand the meaning of friend-zone while I wasn't looking so it could be confusing?

[ZombyWoof]

Again personally I have people who are friends and people who are not. Most of my female friends happen to be very pretty and if they asked me out I'd probably say "Sure." How many of them would I pursue?

Not... that many actually. I can think of one friend off the top of my head that I currently have IRL who is someone I would pursue right now if she were single.

But for example my friend C. She and I get along great and we have a blast whenever we hang out. I don't really have feelings for her with regards to the whole "relationship" side of things, but if she offered I don't feel like I could say no. She and I get along great and it's worth at least seeing where it goes because we're both mature and worst case scenario we end up right were we were: her picking songs on the radio she knows I hate.

Now there are girls I wouldn't date even if they asked. H in my gaming group is a perfect example. She's very cute, but if she was like "Do you want to grab some drinks sometime?" my answer would be a resounding "Sorry I'm busy." Of course, I really don't think of her as a friend either, just someone I'm friendly with who I happen to play D&D with.

[Trog]

I toss people into the Friend Zone all the time, and some of my female friends have put me in theirs, too.
I just define it as "friend with whom a romantic relationship ain't gonna happen", not "friend and thus undesirable romantic companion".
There's also the Pursuit Zone, which holds the people I'm currently pursuing for a romantic relationship or am willing to pursue.
Between those is the Flirtation Zone, which holds the people who I'm on the fence about and won't really pursue, but may take an opportunity to go out with. And, as it says on the tin, I flirt with. Not entirely joking flirting, like what happens with my close friends regardless of where they fall, but somewhat legitimate, hint-dropping, response-analyzing, feeling-things-out flirtation.

The zone that a person is in can shift over time, so someone in the Friend Zone now could end up in the Pursuit Zone in a month, and vice versa.

So, really, the problem is with how people use the term; the Friend Zone does exist, and not just as Trog explained (which is what the typical usage does, in fact, mean).
Well yes there are people you can not want to pursue at all. I call them friends. I don't say "they are in the friend zone" because that implies that they want me and I am turning them down. Which may or may not be the case.

And yes there is the Flirt zone for sure. If I'm single at any one time I'll have a handful of women in this category. If I'm with someone else I forgo this behavior because I find it disrespectful to the other person, but that's just me. Pursuit zone for me is usually pretty focused and short lived, ending in a rejection and moving on to better prospects or in a relationship starting. I do my wooing once things are locked in, if you will. I save my energies for someone who I know will appreciate the attention.

[Coidzor]

Why would any male think for a moment that a woman would want a guy who is too afraid to confront even her? Is that manly? Is that the kind of treatment she deserves? The type of man she deserves? No.

What are you talking about? :smallconfused: I've run into and heard of nothing but enmity and an end to association coming from even asking *anything* further in regards to relationships after being told point blank that one is viewed as nothing more than a friend when one is shot down for asking the dame out.

I'm supposed to believe the appropriate response is to call her out and have an altercation over it?


You mean, guys don't have friends? Or guys are so desperate to bang anything that comes along that they'll never turn anyone down?

It does seem to be more common that guys will respond at least neutrally to a request from a female friend to investigate the possibility of a future romantic relationship at least, regardless of their past interest in the woman.

[Starbuck_II]

What are you talking about? :smallconfused: I've run into and heard of nothing but enmity and an end to association coming from even asking *anything* further in regards to relationships after being told point blank that one is viewed as nothing more than a friend when one is shot down for asking the dame out.

I'm supposed to believe the appropriate response is to call her out and have an altercation over it?

Yes, I think that is what he means. Double checking I guess. I say why not people do change their minds sometimes. Just don't get hopes up. Assume worst, hope for best.
If she still says no, accept it, and if you can be a friend.

[Coidzor]

Yes, I think that is what he means. Double checking I guess. I say why not people do change their minds sometimes. Just don't get hopes up. Assume worst, hope for best.
If she still says no, accept it, and if you can be a friend.

...People change their minds in 30 seconds about dating someone who they just spent the time to process their request and tell them no and that they only view them as a friend? :smallconfused:

That just seems too bizarre to have been what he was going for. :smallconfused:


So the "friend zone" is not a value neutral thing, someone (the complainer) generally considers it to be bad?
And another, somewhat more general question. Why are women less likely to consider themselves "friend zoned" than men? What's the difference there?

Men, even when they're not especially interested, unless there's some issue between them or other factor that would prevent them from having even basic interest in them, will generally at least give things a try, especially if they're having the red carpet rolled out for them by being asked when so many women these days believe that even if they like a guy they'll look like whores if they make the first move.

Women still have a more fragile position in a lot of places such that they cannot afford to be seen as going out on even single dates at a time, especially if she has multiple male friends who are interested in her, it just sorta leads to a domino effect of requested dates if she humors a request from someone who doesn't interest her enough to make up for the added bother.

There are, of course, additional factors I'm forgetting or just plain glossing over because it's early for me yet and I'm trying to clear my head to get ready for work, so I apologize for the holes.

[Trog]

What are you talking about? :smallconfused: I've run into and heard of nothing but enmity and an end to association coming from even asking *anything* further in regards to relationships after being told point blank that one is viewed as nothing more than a friend when one is shot down for asking the dame out.

I'm supposed to believe the appropriate response is to call her out and have an altercation over it?
I think you misunderstand me. The manning up and asking her out is for those individuals who like said girl but haven't had the nerve to ask her out or make their feelings clearly known yet.

And yeah if she says no she might possibly end her association with you. *shrug* The chance you take when revealing your feelings to someone who doesn't share them. If remaining her friend is more important than being her boyfriend then say nothing, accept unspoken defeat, and look elsewhere if you like. Nothing wrong with being friends. If being her boyfriend is more important you should say something of course. Trust your feelings, Luke.

As to the waiting in the wings being a lack of manliness I mean come on. Which guy would a woman rather have? Guy A who flirts hard, sweeps in and confesses his feelings of longing to her and carries her off? Or Guy B who is a mild-mannered nice guy who merely stares at her longingly behind her back and is too afraid to make the kind of showing that guy A did?

Sorry, but many many women want guy A because they feel that they should deserve to be treated as special, as desirable, and as worth the risk. And they are. There might be ones who want guy B instead? But I'm fairly certain they're in the vast minority. Most women, in short, want the knight in shining armor because they feel they are worthy of attracting such a man. Just the way things are, man. If you think she's a princess you better damn well bring your knight game.

[ZombyWoof]

In my experience women do NOT want "knight in shining armor" they want "guy who's an equal who's honest and up front about how he feels and what he wants." They don't want "a guy to help me solve all of my problems" but rather "a guy who'll be there to help me if I have a problem I need help with."

There are subtle distinctions.

Finally, there are definitely the cases where A has a crush on B, B does not have a crush on A. They hang out a bit in social gatherings, and B really enjoys hanging out with A, but doesn't really want to date A. A asks B out, B says "no." So should A just stop talking to B entirely?

I don't think so.

I think that if A actually genuinely likes B, then they will eventually become friends and it doesn't make sense to simply not talk to each other until that eventuality. I also think very strongly that it's stupid, silly, ridiculous, and unfair to demand that A not be disappointed that B doesn't want a relationship with A. When you don't get what you want, you're disappointed. That's the stepwise function here. A didn't get what A wanted, i.e. a relationship. A has no reason to be angry with B or upset with B, but A has every reason to be bummed out.

And I think that's what's bothering me about this "friends zone" conversation. In the process of trying to respect the lady's feelings more, we're delegitimizing the guy's feelings of rejection and disappointment. "Oh," we seem to be saying, "he has no reason to be disappointed! He gets to be friends!" Well if I'm hankering for a bacon-avocado cheeseburger from Froggy's Grill, do you think I'm going to be disappointed if they're closed and I have to get a bacon cheeseburger from McDonald's instead? Heck yeah. What if I went to Froggy's and they ran out of bacon so I had to get some other burger instead? Heck yeah I'm going to be disappointed. Doesn't matter how awesome the friendship is, at that moment it's not what I wanted.

So I'll say it plainly: a guy has every right to complain and be disappointed that he was rejected. Probably shouldn't do it in front of the lady in question, but let's face it: he took a chance and got shot down. Why shouldn't he be upset? And that's where the label of "friends zone" came from... it's not so much "eh I made the mistake of being nice to her" but more of a "god dammit she doesn't think of me as someone date-able that sucks." And it does suck.

[Sarco_Phage]

I'm just gonna chime in and say that many women want a good looking guy with a nice car (house, apartment, mansion) as well as one who is honest and good and forthright. Never forget that material possessions and good looks go a long way, because the first one implies stability and the second one is a good bonus.

Similarly, men want a nice car and good looks because they want to feel needed.

[Trog]

In my experience women do NOT want "knight in shining armor" they want "guy who's an equal who's honest and up front about how he feels and what he wants." They don't want "a guy to help me solve all of my problems" but rather "a guy who'll be there to help me if I have a problem I need help with."
You can be equal and honest and up front and still be a a special knight in shining armor. Princess = knight. Problem solving doesn't even come into this and I'm not sure why you bring it up. :smallconfused:

I'm merely arguing that a woman thinks that she's especial and wants a special guy. I used a knight as an example. Feel free to substitute "knight" with… well with anything so long as it is something special in their eyes and isn't with just "a nice guy."

Please don't think that I mean that a woman needs saving or aid to get by. They most certainly do not. Honestly that strikes me more as a comment coming from someone who feels he is in this ridiculous friend zone (see Serp's diagrams above, specifically the first one).

As to your comment on that a guy has the right to be upset at being rejected, of course he does. Anyone does. It's not a fun thing to go through.

[Sarco_Phage]

Oh, also, if you want to be a proper knight in shining armor, you need a horse, preferably one of the higher class breeds, like the Audi.

[Trog]

Oh, also, if you want to be a proper knight in shining armor, you need a horse, preferably one of the higher class breeds, like the Audi.
:smallconfused:

Uh... No.

I mean come on this isn't about material possessions or wealth. Certainly a person with those who is otherwise a special guy has an edge in life over a similarly special guy who lacks said things. It doesn't necessarily give you an edge in love though, unless it's what that person is looking for.

You just can't be someone who isn't special if you expect to land someone who feels that they are and feels they deserve someone special in return is my main point. That I'll make. Again.