"Evolving" Doppelganger

[Tokuhara]

I was looking through some books and found the Greater Doppelganger in Monsters of Faerun, pg. 35-36. Now, from further research, I found that someone broke down the racial Features of a Greater Doppelganger to the following:

Ability Score Modifiers
+2 Strength, +6 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +6 Intelligence, +6 Wisdom, +2 Charisma

Alter Self (Su)
With this supernatural ability, you can assume the shape of any Small or Medium-sized humanoid. This works like Alter Self as cast by an 18th level sorcerer, but you can remain in the chosen form indefinitely. You can assume a new form or return to your own natural form as a standard action.

Consume Identity (Su)
By eating the brain of a Medium-sized or smaller humanoid victim, you can absorb the mind, memories, and personality of that victim. After consuming a victim's identity, you can assume the victim's form with 100% accuracy and possess the victim's memories, abilities, and alignment. The only exceptions are cleric spells of 2nd level or greater, a paladin's (or equivalent) special abilities, and other powers that are granted by deities. When you have already consumed three or more personalities, and wish to consume another, you must make a Will save (DC 16) to avoid losing a random personality from those consumed earlier. In any case, you cannot have more consumed identities than you have total levels, losing a random identity from your pool if you attempt to exceed that limit. If you "wear" one of your assumed identities and commit an act that runs counter to that form's alignment, you are immediately reverted to your normal form for 1d10 rounds. In your normal form, you retain the basic memories of all the identities you have consumed, though not deeper memories. Memories from previously consumed identities that have been forced out by new identities fade quickly.
This is a supernatural ability.

Detect Thoughts (Su)
You can continuously detect thoughts as the spell cast by an 18th level sorcerer (save DC 15). You can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. This is a supernatural ability.

Immunities (Ex)
You are immune to sleep, charm, and hold effects, as well as all other mind influencing spells. Additionally, you are immune to effects that detect alignment. This is an extraordinary ability.

Magic Item Use (Ex)
No matter what form you are in, you are able to use magic items. This is an extraordinary ability.

Polymorph Rend (Sp)
As a spell-like ability, you can make a touch attack against a being that is presently enchanted by a Polymorph Self spell, a Shapechange spell, or a Polymorph Other spell cast by someone other than yourself. This touch attack inflicts 6d6 points of damage on the polymorphed creature.

Skills
You receive a +4 racial bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks. When using Alter Self, you receive a +10 bonus on Disguise checks. If you can read an opponent's mind, you get a further +4 competence bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks. If you are assuming an identity of someone you have consumed, there is no need to make Disguise checks; your control the personality is complete.

Now, all I see is a moderately stronger version of Doppelganger (brain omnom, poly-rend, better ability scores) Considering that this creature is 5 HD more, and 3x the CR, how many "add-on" levels should be done to base doppelganger?

[Veyr]

Consume Identity is an ability that I consider to be far too powerful to ever be allowed in a player character.

[Tokuhara]

Consume Identity is an ability that I consider to be far too powerful to ever be allowed in a player character.

How is that too powerful. Perhaps if you scaled the will save based on the consumed's HD/Class Levels, and it doesn't work on Divine Casters, thus eliminating 2 of the Big 3.

I was asking, because towards upper-tier, I want to play one. I am already a normal Doppelganger who will take a couple levels of Chameleon, then finish off with Greater Doppelganger. My DM is going by my CR, not my actual levels

[elpollo]

How is that too powerful. Perhaps if you scaled the will save based on the consumed's HD/Class Levels, and it doesn't work on Divine Casters, thus eliminating 2 of the Big 3.

I was asking, because towards upper-tier, I want to play one. I am already a normal Doppelganger who will take a couple levels of Chameleon, then finish off with Greater Doppelganger. My DM is going by my CR, not my actual levels

Because if you fight level appropriate encounters you can quickly gain the spell-casting of 3 tier 1s of your level, tripling what you can do in a day (and more, if you pump your will save). 3 x daily allowance of spells >> 1 x daily allowance of spells.

[Tokuhara]

Because if you fight level appropriate encounters you can quickly gain the spell-casting of 3 tier 1s of your level, tripling what you can do in a day (and more, if you pump your will save). 3 x daily allowance of spells >> 1 x daily allowance of spells.

We rarely do... We fight as a party 1-2 levels higher

[Veyr]

How is that too powerful. Perhaps if you scaled the will save based on the consumed's HD/Class Levels, and it doesn't work on Divine Casters, thus eliminating 2 of the Big 3.
Call an Efreet.

Use some form of Polymorph on the Efreet to change its Type to Humanoid.

Consume Efreet.

Give your party 3 Wishes per day.

Break everything.

And that's just the obvious. There are dozens upon dozens of creatures I wouldn't want you accessing with this. Including the Sarrukh.

[Tokuhara]

Call an Efreet.

Use some form of Polymorph on the Efreet to change its Type to Humanoid.

Consume Efreet.

Give your party 3 Wishes per day.

Break everything.

And that's just the obvious. There are dozens upon dozens of creatures I wouldn't want you accessing with this. Including the Sarrukh.

I wouldn't do that, because I would rather not break the game if it meant my party had fun. Hence, no broken crap

[Tokuhara]

So I'm asking how many more levels would constitute the upgrade to "Greater"

[Veyr]

I'm generally opposed to players gaining access to "monster-only" abilities. Even barring that, you're only slightly more limited than, say, an Illithid Savant. I would either remove or heavily modify Consume Persona before allowing it at all.

Also, I don't like those kinds of ability modifiers on PCs (I don't really like them on monsters, either). At best, I'd make them innate enhancement bonuses (i.e. replacing but not augmenting your usual items).

Finally, I'd want clarification on what Magic Item Use means. If that means you auto-succeed on UMD checks, then no, I'd not allow that either. I'd probably replace it with Deceive Item a la Warlock.

But with those changes, eh... It's definitely very good, but not incredible. I'd say probably 5 levels.

[Tokuhara]

I'm generally opposed to players gaining access to "monster-only" abilities. Even barring that, you're only slightly more limited than, say, an Illithid Savant. I would either remove or heavily modify Consume Persona before allowing it at all.

Also, I don't like those kinds of ability modifiers on PCs (I don't really like them on monsters, either). At best, I'd make them innate enhancement bonuses (i.e. replacing but not augmenting your usual items).

Finally, I'd want clarification on what Magic Item Use means. If that means you auto-succeed on UMD checks, then no, I'd not allow that either. I'd probably replace it with Deceive Item a la Warlock.

But with those changes, eh... It's definitely very good, but not incredible. I'd say probably 5 levels.

I'm going to modify the Consume Persona to ony work on natural humanoids and make the save DC increase based on the consumed's HD

The ability modifiers? do you mean the increased ability scores or the ability to change my appearance?

And the UMD thing is that whether I am posing as a Halfling Rogue, a Human Wizard, or an Orc Fighter, I can use magical devices. Period. No "I auto-make my UMD check," but more of "I can still use my UMD check even tho my persona didn't have ranks in UMD"

[Veyr]

I'm going to modify the Consume Persona to ony work on natural humanoids and make the save DC increase based on the consumed's HD
I'd put a hard cap on the HD of the consumed persona that is less than your current level, personally. The concept of a character that is as strong as the three strongest enemies he's bested in combat combined is not balanced. Even with that cap, I'd be worried about this ability. I'd be very tempted to say that you don't get the abilities of those forms, only their memories/knowledge of their persona.


The ability modifiers? do you mean the increased ability scores or the ability to change my appearance?
The former.


And the UMD thing is that whether I am posing as a Halfling Rogue, a Human Wizard, or an Orc Fighter, I can use magical devices. Period. No "I auto-make my UMD check," but more of "I can still use my UMD check even tho my persona didn't have ranks in UMD"
Consume Persona says nothing about changing your skill ranks, so that would be unnecessary, I think. I think the feature is supposed to be that you can use magical items without UMD checks, which I would not allow.

[Tokuhara]

I'd put a hard cap on the HD of the consumed persona that is less than your current level, personally. The concept of a character that is as strong as the three strongest enemies he's bested in combat combined is not balanced. Even with that cap, I'd be worried about this ability. I'd be very tempted to say that you don't get the abilities of those forms, only their memories/knowledge of their persona.


The former.


Consume Persona says nothing about changing your skill ranks, so that would be unnecessary, I think. I think the feature is supposed to be that you can use magical items without UMD checks, which I would not allow.

Pt 1: I like that suggestion
Pt 2: It's just slightly more athletic than a NORMAL Doppelganger
Pt 3: It is written that if you change forms, you can still use magical devices. Nowhere does it say, "without a UMD check"

[Veyr]

But why would that clause be there at all? You can only assume humanoid forms; those can generally use magical items (provided they have the right spell list/class features/race/UMD check), so that shouldn't be necessary.

Anyway, as for the cap... I'd say the total number of HD from consumed personae cannot exceed your own level.

[Tokuhara]

But why would that clause be there at all? You can only assume humanoid forms; those can generally use magical items (provided they have the right spell list/class features/race/UMD check), so that shouldn't be necessary.

Anyway, as for the cap... I'd say the total number of HD from consumed personae cannot exceed your own level.

I was actually thinking own level + INT modifier

and it's for:

Say you consume the mind of an Orc Chieftan, who is a Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker 4. That clause says that if you take his persona, you can still make UMD checks, even though he can't

[Veyr]

Nothing about taking his persona implies that you wouldn't be able to use your own abilities in addition to his. You gain his abilities; it says nothing about losing your own. That would be an unnecessary statement if that was the intent, and therefore I don't think it was.

Your own level +Int, OK, but I'd then put a cap of (half your level) + Int as the maximum of any single persona.


Bear in mind, I am not any kind of real expert; this is just sort of guess-work here. And of course, you'd have to run this by your DM. He might disagree with me, one way or the other. Just my thoughts.

[Tokuhara]

Nothing about taking his persona implies that you wouldn't be able to use your own abilities in addition to his. You gain his abilities; it says nothing about losing your own. That would be an unnecessary statement if that was the intent, and therefore I don't think it was.

Your own level +Int, OK, but I'd then put a cap of (half your level) + Int as the maximum of any single persona.


Bear in mind, I am not any kind of real expert; this is just sort of guess-work here. And of course, you'd have to run this by your DM. He might disagree with me, one way or the other. Just my thoughts.

I can see what you are saying, but the intent of the consumed persona is that you literally become them, minus you have your scores. You are them inside and out, and thus you use their skills. This is moot, since I plan on playing this with Chameleon

I like that.

[Alleran]

I'm generally opposed to players gaining access to "monster-only" abilities. Even barring that, you're only slightly more limited than, say, an Illithid Savant. I would either remove or heavily modify Consume Persona before allowing it at all.
It's a Supernatural ability, right?

Just let me fetch my Shannara setting Black Elfstone...