A Couple Questions about Ammunition

[Allanimal]

Can ammunition be enchanted with any properties aside from a +x enhancement bonus? I admit I didn't look exhaustively, but I didn't see any weapon enchantments that specifically said they would work on ammo.

What is the cost to enchant ammunition? I'm not finding it in the DMG...
Maybe I am looking in the wrong spot.

Does the Skip rock, found in Races of The Wild, count as a 'little' weapon in the context of the Master Thrower's (Complete Warrior) "Palm Throw" weapon trick? (In other words, can I use Skip Rocks with Palm Throw?) Complete Warrior says this would be a DM decision, but would you allow it, if you were my DM? Based on weight, a Skip rock is one quarter the size of a dagger and half the size of a shuriken or dart, weapons specifically allowed by Palm Throw.

Say I had 3 levels in Swashbuckler, which gives me Insightful Strike, which allows me to add my INT bonus to damage rolls of a finesseable weapon, to targets not immune to crits or sneak attack. Does that apply to thrown weapons? Weapon Finesse says all light weapons, plus a few more. A dagger, for example, is light, even while throwing according to the PHB, p160 under "Two Weapon Fighting". Assuming the target isn't immune to crits or sneak, can I add my INT bonus to damage with a thrown light weapon?

Is a Skip Rock a light weapon? Races of the Wild just has it listed as "Exotic Ranged", with no mention of heaviness or handedness. Based on the stuff above about weapon size & palm throw, and weapon lightness and two-weapon fighting, it seems it should be. Is there any RAW on this anywere? Errata / FAQ / Sage? I haven't found any....

[Moriato]

Can ammunition be enchanted with any properties aside from a +x enhancement bonus? I admit I didn't look exhaustively, but I didn't see any weapon enchantments that specifically said they would work on ammo.

What is the cost to enchant ammunition? I'm not finding it in the DMG...
Maybe I am looking in the wrong spot.


Yes, you can enchant ammunition with anything off the ranged weapon properties list. You get a return of 50/1, meaning that enchanting 50 bolts, arrows, stones, etc costs the same as enchanting 1 sword or bow or what have you. They do still have to be at least +1, unfotunately, before they can have other properties added to them.

[Cog]

Does the Skip rock, found in Races of The Wild, count as a 'little' weapon in the context of the Master Thrower's (Complete Warrior) "Palm Throw" weapon trick?
I'd say so. The fact that they're costed as ammunition makes this call even easier.

Say I had 3 levels in Swashbuckler, which gives me Insightful Strike, which allows me to add my INT bonus to damage rolls of a finesseable weapon, to targets not immune to crits or sneak attack. Does that apply to thrown weapons?
Nope. Finesse, and so Insightful strike, apply to melee attacks, and throwing is ranged.

Is a Skip Rock a light weapon? Races of the Wild just has it listed as "Exotic Ranged", with no mention of heaviness or handedness. Based on the stuff above about weapon size & palm throw, and weapon lightness and two-weapon fighting, it seems it should be. Is there any RAW on this anywere? Errata / FAQ / Sage? I haven't found any....
Ranged weapons fall outside of the light/1h/2h division; you won't find that for any of them, and if the weapon requires a non-obvious number of hands it's explained in the descriptions instead (ex. heavy, light, and hand crossbows). So there's no errata because it's consistent already; a skiprock would require only a single hand, given its size.

[Diarmuid]

"Nope. Finesse, and so Insightful strike, apply to melee attacks, and throwing is ranged.

Finesse doesnt say anything about only applying to melee, so while Ranged attacks already use your Dex by default, your logic is not as rock solid as you seem to think.



WEAPON FINESSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.


Likewise, the CWar entry for Insightful Strike makes no mention of specifically limiting its effects to melee weapons/attacks. The errata might say something different, but I cant check that ATM.

[Cog]

Finesse doesnt say anything about only applying to melee, so while Ranged attacks already use your Dex by default, your logic is not as rock solid as you seem to think.
As I explained later in that post, the characteristic of being 'light' is something that's only applied to melee weapons. So, yes, Finesse is melee-only.

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons

This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Insightful Strike doesn't need to call melee weaponry out separately, nor did I ever imply it does. It refers back to Weapon Finesse.

[Allanimal]

As I explained later in that post, the characteristic of being 'light' is something that's only applied to melee weapons. So, yes, Finesse is melee-only.

Well, what about this:



Thrown Weapons
The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting)
So there is 'light' for ranged (thrown) weapons.

[Cog]

Seeing as that only comes up in the two-weapon fighting rules, and not in the thrown weapon rules, the 'treat as an X weapon' clause only refers to the penalties you take on your attacks. After all, they include a shuriken as one of the examples, which (to my knowledge) is nowhere else described as a light weapon.

[Diarmuid]

Light has nothing to do with whether a weapon is used in melee or ranged, rather it governs the following from the SRD,



The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder)


I appreciate your efforts at defending your position, but unless you can provide some kind of reference backing up your arguments you're not going to get very far.

[Cog]

Light has nothing to do with whether a weapon is used in melee or ranged, rather it governs the following from the SRD...
Your quote isn't even from the description of the handedness categories; it's from the section on inappropriately sized weapons. I already quoted the actual handedness category description earlier in this thread, which refers both in its body and in its text to melee weaponry.

...unless you can provide some kind of reference backing up your arguments you're not going to get very far.
As noted, I have been providing references. I've discussed the handedness categories, the thrown category, I've pointed out the lack of handedness for ranged weapons on the weapon description tables, and we've looked at the specific text for TWF attacks and Weapon Finesse. What more reference do you need? No, the rules never explicitly say 'ranged weapons don't have handedness'. They also don't explicitly say 'Barbarians don't have a spellcasting progression'.

I'll come at this from another angle, though. This one's just an indication of RAI rather than RAW, but it's still worth considering. Insightful Strike is a form of precision damage; it's negated by crit/sneak attack defenses. Every other example of precision damage that I'm aware of gets the standard 30' range limit; that's a basic aspect of precision damage in 3.5. Why wouldn't Insightful Strike get that language as well? Maybe, somehow, it's the one form of precision damage that can be used at any range - but more likely it's because it only applies to melee attacks, because finesse only applies to melee attacks.

[Diarmuid]

Your references arent supporting your arguments though. I'm quoting the Weapon Finesse feat and the Insightful Strike text...neither of which do anything remotely to support the restrictions you're trying to impose on them.

This comes down to a simply equation.

What weapons can Insightful Strike be applied to? finesseable weapons
Is a dagger finesseable? Yes
Can a dagger be thrown? Yes

Now, you've mentione RaI, and I'll let you interpret whatever you want. But by RaW, Insightful Strike dmg would be applied to thrown daggers.

[Cartigan]

They do still have to be at least +1, unfotunately, before they can have other properties added to them.
I don't think so. The wording seems to indicate that ammunition doesn't have that restriction. Of course, that reading also implies that can't have special abilities somewhat, so it's kind of sketchy.

[ILM]

Finesse doesnt say anything about only applying to melee, so while Ranged attacks already use your Dex by default, your logic is not as rock solid as you seem to think.
Finesse does state "you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls", which you only do for melee attacks.

[Cartigan]

Finesse does state "you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls", which you only do for melee attacks.

I REALLY want to know how and why this conversation started seeing as how you always use Dex for ranged attacks anyway.

[Cog]

Your references arent supporting your arguments though.

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon...
This is the third time I've pointed this out. It's a clear, direct reference to handedness being a characteristic of melee weaponry. If you wish to continue pretending I'm not using actual references, then I suppose we're done here.

I'm quoting the Weapon Finesse feat and the Insightful Strike text...neither of which do anything remotely to support the restrictions you're trying to impose on them.
For the second time, that's not where the restrictions are. For the second time, I've never said otherwise. Please try to respond to my actual arguments.

What weapons can Insightful Strike be applied to? finesseable weapons
Is a dagger finesseable? Yes
Can a dagger be thrown? Yes
A dagger can be used as a melee weapon. A dagger can also be used as a ranged weapon. They are entirely separate matters and follow different rules. As a melee weapon, a dagger is a light weapon. As a ranged weapon, it is a thrown weapon.

ILM makes a valid point as well.
Cartigan: It's because Insightful Strike depends on Finesse attacks.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Although the logic of your argument against treating thrown weapons as "light" is very solid. There is one part you are missing out on Cog. The SRD references all certainly hold true but there is also a rule for what actually constitutes a light weapon as well. The SRD for light weapon clearly states that many ranged weapons, both ammunition based and thrown alike, are light weapons. Refering back to the rules for weapon finesse it states specifically that ANY light weapon, spiked chain, whip etc fits the bill. So based on those rules thrown weapons that fall into the category of "light weapon" normally would be finessable and as such would qualify for insightful strike. While thrown weapons NOT considered light, (Spears etc) would not.

[Cog]

The SRD references all certainly hold true but there is also a rule for what actually constitutes a light weapon as well.
I know. That's why I've quoted those rules.

The SRD for light weapon clearly states that many ranged weapons, both ammunition based and thrown alike, are light weapons.
I'm looking at the rules defining light weapons right now. It doesn't list any examples of weapons, melee or not. Perhaps you're seeing this somewhere else? Could you provide a direct quote so I can be sure what you're talking about?

None of the rest of the post is anything new. I'm not going to repeat my points again; scroll up if you're curious what they are.