Rogue/Barbarian character

[Luzahn]

I am about to start a new 3.5 game, and wanted to give playing a rogue/barbarian hybrid a try. Does anyone have any advice on stat focus/weaponry, as well as race selection?

[Diarmuid]

What kind of role are you looking for this character to play in the group?

[Draz74]

Well, wow. We could use a lot more info. Which books are available? How much does the group optimize? What are the other characters in the party like? What tasks is the party expecting you to be best at? What's the character concept that led you to this combination of classes?

But without knowing any of that stuff, here's what I've got.

Focus on Strength more than Dexterity. Rogues, contrary to what many people think, don't actually have any class features based on Dexterity. Sneak Attacking works just fine with STR added to attack/damage.

Weapon selection, likewise, should be more Barbarian-ish. No reason you can't Sneak Attack with a Greatsword or Glaive.

I would probably go with light armor rather than medium; it's only 1 AC of difference, and it will make you quite a bit better at a number of Roguish skills. Faster, too. And keep Evasion.

If Unearthed Arcana stuff is allowed, think about taking the Whirling Frenzy Barbarian variant. It can help your AC out a bit. Plus it's just cool in general.

Best races are all the usual melee candidates: Human, Half-Orc, Orc, Water Orc, Goliath ...

[Curmudgeon]

Rogues, contrary to what many people think, don't actually have any class features based on Dexterity. Sneak Attacking works just fine with STR added to attack/damage.
I don't think that's a fair statement. After sneak attack, skills are the main Rogue class feature. And 8 of those class skills are Dexterity-based.

[GeekGirl]

I had rogue barbarian, I ended up only taking 2 levels of barbarian and a level of fighter for feats. I focusing on damage. I use sneak attack damage more than rage. I used a bastard sword and warmace. With those, I could either dual weild, of use as 2 handers with power attack. Stat wise (we had another skillbot) Con, Str, Dex, Cha (UMD and bluff/diplomacy) Rage was just there if i needed it, I used it, but not as often as I though I would. At level 7 I was averaging 15 damage with out sneak attack a hit. It wasn't the most graceful build ever, and there was probably a better way to do it. But it worked nice as most characters weren't completely optimized.

[Cog]

Staggering Strike is a good feat to pick up. Your sneak attack will be lacking, but as a barbarian you'll still be putting out good damage; forcing a save versus that damage with every sneak attack should work out well.

[Draz74]

I don't think that's a fair statement. After sneak attack, skills are the main Rogue class feature. And 8 of those class skills are Dexterity-based.

Semantics.

Besides, unless one is focusing heavily on those eight skills (and if they are, why Barbarian levels???), one could even argue that the Rogue's abundance of skill points is so they can afford to neglect Dexterity, and still be reasonably skillful.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with the traditional Dex-focused Rogue. But sometimes people forget that a good Rogue doesn't have to be Dex-focused.

[Luzahn]

Well, it's just that the Barbarian/rogue combination fit my character's personality rather well. I wanted to know how basic synergy would work with the core rulebooks, being rather new to 3.5. I assumed dex based, with strength second, and dual-wielding.

Haven't had much other input concerning people's characters and roles, but I'm assuming a damage focus.

[Keld Denar]

I'd actually suggest going Str focus, with Con being your secondary stat and everything else filtering in behind that.

You should take Power Attack relatively early, as well as Extra Rage. Also, depending on your Cha score, Intimidating Rage + Imperious Command makes a good combo. Taking an action to intimidate in combat generally isn't worthwhile, but getting a free intimdate check when you do something that doesn't take any action, and you'd probably be doing every combat ANYWAY, and has the chance to take someone's turn away from them does seem like a worthwhile endeavor. Even consider Immediate Rage, if you like that plan, as this allows you to save your rage until some bad guy announces an action you don't agree with, then yell BOO and make him wet himself and lose his action, thus interupting whatever he was doing. Its the Barbarian version of Celerity!

I also very much like Staggering Strike. Getting full attacked sucks. Forcing a DC50something save that your foe has to make to keep from getting full attacked does NOT suck.

Do yourself a favor and grab a nice reach weapon. Glaive sneak attacks from 10' away are sexy. The AoOs you can generate against other medium creatures are also sexy, even without Combat Reflexes, 1 extra attack per round is worth it. You can generally take the 5' step required as needed and keep full attacking.

[Luzahn]

Hm, sounds good. I'll probably take two swords or axes, though, fits the character better.

[Cog]

There is a downside to relying on reach weaponry. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) How big that is depends on the terrain you're likely to find yourself in.

[Keld Denar]

Since you don't have full rogue levels, you won't benefit fully from high SA which rewards more swings/round. You'll also be VERY strapped for the feats you need to make TWFing work unless your DM is very generous and houserules TWF, ITWF, and GTWF all into one feat. Without that, you'll be hard up for feats to do anything BUT TWF, and you can't use some of the cool rage tricks I mentioned above. Also, if you are going for Staggering Strike, that feat works best with fewer high damage hits than numerous low damage hits like you'd get from TWFing. Plus, then you are back to a dex based build. You'd be better off using a 2hander, taking full advantage of the boost to damage rage gives, and Power Attacking off the excess. Otherwise, you'll end up very unfocused and very lackluster in your ability to perform in combat. Since you are advancing a few Barbarian levels to the detriment of your skills, you'll also lose out somewhat in that department, and basically making yourself spread too thin.

The best option would be to drop the Barbarian completely and use Wilderness Rogue or such from UA to get that feral feel and focus on TWFing, or drop TWFing and focus on a single big 2hander.

[Amphetryon]

If you're using a TWF Barbarian/Rogue concept, and have access to Unapproachable East, Snow Tiger Berserker is a reasonable fit. It's somewhat inferior to the Lion Totem ACF, but you'd keep Fast Movement.

[Draz74]

What Keld said.

Also, unless you go full Wilderness Rogue, I'd probably take only 3-4 levels of Rogue. That gets you the class's best goodies, and only loses you one point of BAB.

[ericgrau]

I'd go for a basic barbarian build except light armor to tumble and flank. The fast movement should help your tumbling speed too. Str, con, dex, wis, int, cha for ability score priority. You might as well grab search+disable device for trapfinding since others don't have it. Other skills depend on the campaign, but don't take any redundant with barbarianism like escape artist (your grapple mod is ok) nor open lock (try a crowbar).

TWF isn't necessary as pointed out but it works fine even on a pure barbarian if that's what you want. Do still keep a str focus if possible. You can always delay the weaker TWF tree feats until you boost your dex with magic items.



Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with the traditional Dex-focused Rogue. But sometimes people forget that a good Rogue doesn't have to be Dex-focused.
Ya. It ticks me off when people say things like "why don't rogues get weapon finesse for free?" So cliché and boring to build them all the same way.

[Luzahn]

Hm. Thanks for the input. I hate having character concepts work out to be unplayable, but I think Ericgrau's advice will work.

[Keld Denar]

It would be playable, but somehow it doesn't feel very barbariany to hit for 1d6+3 with your offhand attacks...

Seriously, though, you'll have a TON of fun with a Glaive. Reach weapons add a dynamic to the game thats a bit more than your standard move and attack. Plus, you can flank from 3 different squares with reach from 10' away, so long as your ally is at one of the 4 cardinal directions behind your foe, which is delicious.

[Luzahn]

Well, the character is a raider/pirate type. Two-handed weapons would be pretty unwieldy on ships.

[Rei_Jin]

I had a build like this once, I called it "Conan the Librarian".

Human with Able Learner, first level in Rogue, then everything else in Barbarian. The Barbarian gets a fair number of skills per level, and when combined with the high HP, DR, Trap Sense, and so on, you make a rogue that can actually take a hit. You don't get much sneak attack damage, but if you have a high strength, and pick up the Nimble Fingers feat at level 3, you can run your Search off your Dex rather than your intelligence, meaning you can focus on your Str, Dex, and Con rather than Int, Wis, or Cha.

Of course, if you're not going for a trapfinder, different options apply.

You could look at the variant Barbarians in the Unearthed Arcana book for some ideas, the Whirling Steel variant specifically comes to mind for me.

[dextercorvia]

Remember Craven. Penetrating Strike makes Rogue 3 very worthwhile. (You can even grab the one from EtCR if your DM is as picky as Curmudgeon.) If you can then find a way to make Flanking easier (Island of Blades says hi), and pick up a buddy via Wild Cohort. I'm going to 4th or 5th the suggestion that you take a reach weapon. They are worth the effort to write it in to your back story.

Edit: I didn't catch your second post on core rulebooks.

[Jopustopin]

Changeling
1: Rogue
2: Barbarian (Pounce Variant)
3: Rogue
4: Rogue
5: Rogue
6: Warshaper
7: Warshaper
8: Fighter (hit-n-run variant)
9: Swordsage
10: Swordsage
11: Rogue

Feats:
1) Two-Weapon Fighting
3) Knowledge Devotion
6) Extra Rage
8) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9) Shadow Blade

Pro: A full attack with daggers would look something like: dagger/dagger/dagger/dagger/bite 1d4 + str + dex + knowledge + 4d6 Sneak Attack. You can do this on a charge. You have a permanent +4 Str and +4 Con whenever you are in a shape other than your natural one (which should be always) and you can rage ontop of that., immunity to critical attacks, and a natural bite (or whatever) attack. You can probably teleport through the standards outside of combat pretty frequently. This build avoids multiclass penalties.

[Draz74]

You can use a reach weapon (glaive) and still use Two-Weapon Fighting if your off-hand weapon is armor spikes.

[faceroll]

I'm going to disagree with Keld here and suggest you go with TWF. It won't gimp you that much.

Recommend two ACFs, both which you can find on the SRD:
Wolf Totem Barbarian 2, gets you improved trip, allows you to ignore pre-reqs
Whirling Frenzy Variant, gets you extra attack while raging, +2 AC, lose con bonus

Suggested feats:
TWF
Extra Rage
Craven- add character level to damage
Knockdown- free trip attempts when doing more than 10+ damage

Build:
Barbarian2/Rogue18, with rogue as first level, for oodles of skill points. Or you know, use barb2/rogueX as a base for something else.

With rage and a prioritized strength, you should be pretty good at tripping. A potion of enlarge person (or some levels in psychic warrior for expansion) can help out against bigger/more stable creatures. Tripping is pretty swashbuckler-y, but also synergizes well with your build.

Between TWF, Whirling Frenzy, and Improved trip, you'll be getting 2 attacks at your full BAB (-4 for making extra attacks, though), three when you knock someone down (which gives your opponent a -4 penalty to AC).

[Leon]

How much Rogue and how much Barbarian are you thinking?

For Race: Half Orc fits well, as does Dwarf

[Luzahn]

I'd wanted it to be near-equal, but that doesn't look viable. I'm fine with a small bit of barbarian with majority rogue.

[faceroll]

I'd wanted it to be near-equal, but that doesn't look viable. I'm fine with a small bit of barbarian with majority rogue.

If you want your rogue skills to function with reliability, go rogue heavy.

[PinkysBrain]

A barbarian multiclass suffers in core from not having access to the extra rage feat.

That said, rogue 2/Barbarian 4/more rogue is the natural progression. Gets you 2 rages a day. The synergy is that both classes are used to make you hit people so it hurts and Barbarian gives you +3 to hit compared to pure rogue while raging.

[faceroll]

Oh dang, just core. Didn't see that. Whirling Frenzy is on SRD, does that count?

[Luzahn]

I'm sure I can get the DM to integrate both, if I can find them online somewhere.

[ericgrau]

I'd wanted it to be near-equal, but that doesn't look viable. I'm fine with a small bit of barbarian with majority rogue.

I'm confused. I would have thought your second sentance would have swapped "barbarian" and "rogue", at least for viability in combat. Are you short on skills or something? The BAB, better rage and HP really help, Even with less sneak attack you usually come out ahead. Couple campaigns ago the biggest hitter in the group was a TWF barbarian / ranger, no sneak attack. We called him the Cuisanart. The drawback of TWF compared to THF on non-rogues really is miniscule without uberchargerness. Most casual groups can't tell the difference.

I'd make your first level rogue only so you get enough skill points to let you focus more levels on barbarian. You'll have way too many at level 1 in fact, so it's a good time to put the extras into skills that you only want 5 ranks of for synergy or to make low DC checks. Then from there I'd put the minimum necessary levels in rogue to get your skills and the rest to barbarian. Remember your max skill ranks are the same as a pure rogue, but you pay double for ranks in rogue-only skills when taking barbarian levels. So you want to take rogue skills during rogue levels when possible.