How do I make balanced Prestige class

[slaydemons]

I kinda wish to make a class similar to the mystic theurge, but instead of the crappy dual casting progression alone I wanted to give it something to call its own just a couple of abilities I think would befit someone trying to blur the lines of the arcane and divine. how should I go about doing this and keeping the new creation from overpowering everything?

[Cog]

This should be in the homebrew forum instead, I think. Still, you could look at some of the other dual-progression classes that are considered worthwhile; Arcane Heirophant and Ultimate Magus are good starting points.

[Kylarra]

Could also look at pathfinder's mystic theurge.

[slaydemons]

Could also look at pathfinder's mystic theurge.

well I don't have pathfinder books and no its something I think is cooler

[HunterOfJello]

well I don't have pathfinder books

It's a shame they don't have the basic pathfinder information on the internet.


Also, Pathfinder SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/)

[Cog]

Voila. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.html) Hunh. URL text doesn't count for message length.

[slaydemons]

Ha well its that I am not looking for I want to do twin cast something I made up but It sounds like how it is.

[erikun]

Make the entry requirements 3/1 rather than 3/3. That is, a requirement of 2nd-level arcane spells + 1st-level divine spells or 2nd-level divine spells + 1st-level arcane spells. This takes care of the major negative aspect of the class (high caster level loss for entry) and allows it to get started before 7th level.

[slaydemons]

how does this sound I want to take the idea of the the mystic theurge but remake it almost completely with abilities and dual spell progression

[Aemoh87]

Build a class that's mechanics reflect it's fluff. If it was built from a mechanic idea it is prolly doomed to be either too good or uselessly awful/mundane. The biggest key is that it should have built in limitations.

There are several formulas to make PrC's and the greatest example of this is Tainted Scholar. It was built using one of these formulas and is very extreme. Now I all know we are aware of it's abuse but that has to do with avoiding the limitations. Play with them and it's incredibly well built. Tainted Scholar might also give you some insight on how PrC's can be easily broken so you need to really watch for that. Ensure your limitations are protected and your wording is extremely clear.

[slaydemons]

hmm maybe I should write down what I want for it and put it down in homebrew asking for peach after its flavor text is done

[faceroll]

Above poster offers bad, bad, terrible, and bad advice. Start with mechanics. Fluff is easy enough to stretch over a mechanical frame, like flesh stretched over the exoskeleton of a flayed one. I would take Ultimate Magus, and retool it to allow casting arcane spells in armor (start at 0 level spells, go up to 9th), instead of CL buffs. I would also give it one more +all level spell advancement.

[slaydemons]

Above poster offers bad, bad, terrible, and bad advice. Start with mechanics. Fluff is easy enough to stretch over a mechanical frame, like flesh stretched over the exoskeleton of a flayed one. I would take Ultimate Magus, and retool it to allow casting arcane spells in armor (start at 0 level spells, go up to 9th), instead of CL buffs. I would also give it one more +all level spell advancement.

I want it to be able to cast twice as often as in it can cast two spells a turn, This is what I think the mystic theurge along with something else to make it a devastating class if used right.

[Douglas]

I want it to be able to cast twice as often as in it can cast two spells a turn, This is what I think the mystic theurge along with something else to make it a devastating class if used right.
That would be extremely powerful. It would need some serious costs or limits on use, or a casting progression significantly more gimped than standard Mystic Theurge, in order to be balanced.

[slaydemons]

That would be extremely powerful. It would need some serious costs or limits on use, or a casting progression significantly more gimped than standard Mystic Theurge, in order to be balanced.

plan to force them to take a divine meta magic feat as well as the normal equal. as well as it being a higher then level one ability as in you can't do it at level one but when you do get it you can only do it like once a day (increasing as your levels increase) something like that

[Kylarra]

casting multiple spells in a single turn better be a ridiculous waste of resources, otherwise it's severely overpowered. It should also fit on a half or 6/10 caster frame.

[slaydemons]

casting multiple spells in a single turn better be a ridiculous waste of resources, otherwise it's severely overpowered. It should also fit on a half or 6/10 caster frame.

I have to study more

[Veyr]

Hmm.... some kind of class that can "twincast" lower-level spells might be worthwhile.

Maybe a five-level class, loses spellcasting at all but say 3rd, but gains a ton bonus lower-level spell slots, and can cast two spells of level no greater than class level in a single standard action? Combine with War Weaver for awesome?

[slaydemons]

Hmm.... some kind of class that can "twincast" lower-level spells might be worthwhile.

Maybe a five-level class, loses spellcasting at all but say 3rd, but gains a ton bonus lower-level spell slots, and can cast two spells of level no greater than class level in a single standard action? Combine with War Weaver for awesome?

I have no clue what that is, thinking about having it alternate what spell pool you increase you might be like akin to a 10th level wizard/cleric at level 16but I don't doubt someone could find a way to make you be able to cast above 5th level spells.

[Veyr]

Hrm... I have some ideas on this. Would you mind terribly if I tried statting it up over on the homebrew section? I'd credit you for the idea.

[slaydemons]

Hrm... I have some ideas on this. Would you mind terribly if I tried statting it up over on the homebrew section? I'd credit you for the idea.

I am trying to do the same thing I just tend not to have a brain for it so I don't mind just tell me later how you decided to stat it

[Veyr]

I'll add a link to this thread and PM you once it's up. Don't have time to do it right now.

[slaydemons]

no problem it will probably take some time

[erikun]

Well, my first suggestion would be to look at a class that does what you want correctly, and is considered reasonably balanced. As we are talking dual spellcaster progression, the Ultimate Magus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3) comes to mind. Even as a Wizard/Sorcerer with MAD and withholding trickery, it is considered to do a good job through its abilities.

Secondly, come up with an idea and, again, find something similar that is generally considered balanced. Your dual-casting idea is a good one, and it reminds me a lot of the psionic power Schism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm). Schism is good in that it grants an extra action for using additional powers, but doesn't allow the character to use that action for anything else and has a penality compared to the normal standard action. It's considered rather good when we avoid extreme psionic cheese or trying to double-stack manifester level bonuses.

So, with that we'll try to put together an improved Mystic Theurge. Assume all the standard abilities (prerequisites, skills, casting advancement) are the same, just with these new abilities.

1st level ability: Dualcasting - 10
At first level, the Mystic Theurge gains the ability to cast an additional spell each round. You gain one additional standard action, which may only be used for casting a spell or maintaining concentration on an existing spell. This allows the Mystic Theurge to cast two spells a turn, or take a standard action and cast a spell. Casting the spell still takes an action, and so provokes attacks of opportunity and requires components as usual.

Spells cast using the Dualcasting standard action are at a -10 caster level, to a minimum of caster level 1. The Mystic Theurge is limited to spells available to his caster level for the Dualcasting standard action. For example, a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1 may cast one spell as a Wizard 4, and another spell in the same turn as a Wizard 1. The second spell is limited to only first-level spells, as a Wizard 1, and only has the duration of a first level caster.

As Dualcasting only grants a standard action, it may not be used to cast spells with a longer casting time (such as the Summon Monster line) unless those spells can be cast as a standard action.

2nd level ability: Caster Level +1
The caster level of all spellcasting classes the character possesses is increased by one. This is retroactive to later classes; a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 2 who then gains a first level of Bard can cast Bard spells as a 2nd level caster.

The increased caster level does not apply to the class's Dualcasting action.

3rd level ability: Dualcasting - 9
Spells cast with the Mystic Theurge's Dualcasting action only have a -9 penality.

4th level ability: Caster Level +2
The caster level of all spellcasting classes is increased by one again, for a total of +2.

5th level ability: Dualcasting - 8
Spells cast with the Mystic Theurge's Dualcasting action only have a -8 penality.

6th level ability: Bonus Feat
The Mystic Theurge gains one bonus metamagic, item creation, or Spell Mastery feat.

7th level ability: Dualcasting - 7
Spells cast with the Mystic Theurge's Dualcasting action only have a -7 penality.

8th level ability: Caster Level +3
The caster level of all spellcasting classes is increased by one again, for a total of +3.

9th level ability: Dualcasting - 6
Spells cast with the Mystic Theurge's Dualcasting action only have a -6 penality.

10th level ability: Dualcasting - 4
Spells cast with the Mystic Theurge's Dualcasting action only have a -4 penality.

Sorry if it gets wordy; I was trying to make the new abilities clear at each level. Versions typed up with a table generally don't need to repeat themselves so much.

Obviously, the main ability is Dualcasting. You never get to dualcast at an equal level, but casting two spells a turn, even at -4 for the second, is still very good. That's one 9th level spell and one 7th level spell, after all. I intentionally made it worse at first, although 1st level spells are still plenty useful, in exchange for making it better than Schism at the end. Simply buffing Dualcasting as a capstone is a pretty good deal, as it's the best ability presented.

Caster level +1 is present to mitigate the lost caster levels from the Wizard 3/Cleric 3 multiclass required for entry. CL+3 at the end means a Wiz3/Clr3/MT10 casts as a 16th level character, exactly what it is. They were handed out in earlier levels, because the lost caster levels have a bigger impact to lower level characters.

The bonus feat was just filler, as something to put there.

[slaydemons]

well the reason I said twincasting is because when I think of dualcasting I think its just progressing two casters at the same time other then that I am quite surprised no one has thought of such a thing aqs I googled both dual casting and twincasting found nothing like a decribed

[erikun]

Ah, sorry. I misunderstood.

If you to want to look up "dualcasters" - meaning characters who can cast two spells a round - you might want to look up D&D Red Mages. Their name is based off the Final Fantasy Red Mage, and much like the FF class, they usually have the ability to cast two spells at once.

I guess my example doesn't help directly, but perhaps it would be something good to look over. It may give you an idea of how to take a concept (say, casting twice a turn) and turn it into something usable, but not overly abusive.

Other than that, good luck!

[EDIT]
Most prestige classes like the Mystic Theurge are frequently referred to as "Theurges" or "dual progression" classes. A class that progresses spellcasting and martial combat is frequently called a "gish".

[slaydemons]

Ah, sorry. I misunderstood.

If you to want to look up "dualcasters" - meaning characters who can cast two spells a round - you might want to look up D&D Red Mages. Their name is based off the Final Fantasy Red Mage, and much like the FF class, they usually have the ability to cast two spells at once.

I guess my example doesn't help directly, but perhaps it would be something good to look over. It may give you an idea of how to take a concept (say, casting twice a turn) and turn it into something usable, but not overly abusive.

Other than that, good luck!

[EDIT]
Most prestige classes like the Mystic Theurge are frequently referred to as "Theurges" or "dual progression" classes. A class that progresses spellcasting and martial combat is frequently called a "gish".

actually your idea was dead on casting two spells at the same time but I was saying twincasting because casting two spells at the same time, rather then saying dualcasting which reminds me of mystic Theurges just leveling up

Edit: I looked it up its similar but not quite what I was looking for though the doublecast thing I can use that

[Veyr]

Well, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194368) is a (very!) rough first draft. Currently, I think I went overboard with the lower level spells. But I'd love feedback!