Warlock

[Half-orc Bard]

I checked the teir system and warlock is 4 why? I made one it can heal well range well and with eldritch Glaive I melee well so teir 3 seems more appropriate what do you think? And your overall opinion on the class

[Kalim]

Warlocks can be quite versatile with wands/staves, but they have to invest a lot of time, money, and XP into making them, or just a lot more money into buying them.

Rogues, the other big UMD monkey class is also T4 for the same reason. Costs keep their versatility down, so they come down to being good for only one thing - popping out damage.

Admittedly, they're still quite cool.

[faceroll]

Warlocks suffer from largely weak/non-versatile abilities and very few of them at that. They get the bare-bones of casting (damage, dispel, summoning, some BF control, flight, minions), but they can only pick one or two from that list. Compare that to what a Dread Necro or Beguiler gets, or the pseudo-spells initiates of blade magic get. Most maneuvers are straight up more powerful than what warlocks get, as are the plethora of spells Dread Necros & Beguilers have access to.

[Half-orc Bard]

But you only really need a wand of cure critical wounds and take obtain familiar(raven) have it heal you so you can do eldritch blast and still heal in the same round. And at later levels 21,100 go isn't rediculoilusly expencice when you don't have to pay for weapons

[faceroll]

But you only really need a wand of cure critical wounds and take obtain familiar(raven) have it heal you so you can do eldritch blast and still heal in the same round. And at later levels 21,100 go isn't rediculoilusly expencice when you don't have to pay for weapons

Being able to heal and blasting for 1/2level d6 are marginal abilities compared to punching somebody for 100 damage, teleporting as a swift action, using concentration checks in place of saves, and AoE blinding.

[Half-orc Bard]

Being able to heal and blasting for 1/2level d6 are marginal abilities compared to punching somebody for 100 damage, teleporting as a swift action, using concentration checks in place of saves, and AoE blinding.

Wow what class uses concentration checks instead of saves

[Keld Denar]

Remember, tiers aren't about shear power. Its a function of versatility and potential power.

You can build a fighter who deals 500 damage per hit, enough to 1-shot most monsters printed, but that doesn't make fighters any higher tier. Most people won't build a fighter who can do that. I takes a lot of effort and a fair amount of system mastery to make a fighter who can perform like that. Contrast with a wizard or druid. Semi-random spell selection can still make many encounters trivial because magic is just that good.

So no, while YOU can make a warlock that is high powered, that doesn't change the fact that this takes a bit more skill and system mastery than building a high powered T1-3 class, and building one with the versatility to keep up with an average optimized T3 class is tough.


Wow what class uses concentration checks instead of saves
Warblades and Swordsages using the 3 Diamond Mind save counters can do it, as can anyone with a Headband of Consious Effort (1/day, fort only).

[Shpadoinkle]

Warlocks are pretty versatile in theory but in practice they're fairly limited in what they can do, and what they can do isn't exceptionally impressive.

They can throw out constant, decent damage all day... but they don't get anything akin to Fireball, for instance, so they're stuck with either taking potshots at one or two enemies per round for mediocre damage, or going with the glaivelock option, which is limiting because then they have to focus feats and WBL on staying alive and effective in melee.

Warlocks can only have 12 invocations at a given time (at level 20), barring extras from feats or items. And THAT'S IT. They can't swap out their abilities for new ones every day like a wizard can, and times when they can trade one out for a new one are pretty rare.

Their resistances and DR never gets high enough to matter for the levels they're gained at. Fiendish Resilience, while nice, isn't incredibly useful.

Warlocks have lots of neat, useful powers... but they don't have any GREAT powers, and once they've made a choice about where to go with their class abilities, they're pretty much stuck with it.

[faceroll]

Remember, tiers aren't about shear power. Its a function of versatility and potential power.

Sheer.
Shear is about breaking things. Sheer is scalar.
Tiers1, 2, and 3 all have some level of ability to break the game in non-quantifiable ways. Over 9000 damage isn't really that impressive compared to summoning a celestial host, being immune to all damage, getting input from the goddess of war on you battle strategy, raising an army of the dead, going back in time, creating a legion sentient war-engines, burying cities beneath 3 stories of snow, or ushering in the end of all reality. That's T1 & T2 power.

T3 still involves some orthogonal avoidance of scalar issues, but below that, everyone's just comparing numbers.

[Volos]

Glass Cannons are every rarely above Tier 4. Even with many options and tricks, they are built to be one-trick-ponies. And that trick is dopping more d6's than your DM through you had.

[darkdragoon]

Their most powerful trick (Imbue Item) relegates them to a scrivener/smithy who just happens to shoot beams from their hands from time to time.

There are nice invocations but only learn a few, which is compounded if they want to do stuff with Eldritch Blast. Prestige classes can be an issue with advancement and eating up said invocations just to qualify.

[Darth Stabber]

Warlock is made of fun, but even with perfect system mastery it will never do what the tier 3+'s do. A warbalde can easily swing for more damage more accurately, and with more survivability than a glaive'lock. And the really sad part about that is that the warblade didn't really have to specialize to do it, infact he can be specialized in something else entirely and still out do what the glaivelock min/maxed his butt off to be competant at. Versitility means more than "can you build Xclass to do Y", if it did fighter would be higher. It means "can classX proficiently do Y, Z, V, and U in the same build", and that is a much higher benchmark.

[true_shinken]

Warlocks are pretty versatile in theory but in practice they're fairly limited in what they can do, and what they can do isn't exceptionally impressive.
It's very, very impressive for a tier 4.
Let's see, you can easily deal damage to one-shot almost anything in melee, you can get good senses, flight, teleportation and miss chance at will, you can get black tentacles at will and you can take 10 in UMD, an ability shared with only one other base class.
Warlock is a lot better than you think. Check my guide for examples.

[Particle_Man]

Let's see, you can easily deal damage to one-shot almost anything in melee.

Easily? You mean a pure Warlock 20 against an appropriate CR creature?

[faceroll]

Easily? You mean a pure Warlock 20 against an appropriate CR creature?

Eh, most CR 16 monsters have 150-300 HP. Doesn't seem impossible with UMD rhino rush and leap attack or whatever.

[MeeposFire]

Eh, most CR 16 monsters have 150-300 HP. Doesn't seem impossible with UMD rhino rush and leap attack or whatever.

You can't use those unless you use eldritch claws and using 3.5 dragon material is frowned upon in most circles in balance discussions (though I happen to like eldritch claws).

[faceroll]

You can't use those unless you use eldritch claws and using 3.5 dragon material is frowned upon in most circles in balance discussions (though I happen to like eldritch claws).

Mr. Shinken specifically called out melee warlocks in the post that was quoted above, so I assume DR material is in use.

[thompur]

My favorite class!
The main thing, I think, from keeping Warlock from reaching teir 3 is that it's a very 'selfish' class. With the exception of Flee the Scene, none of the invocations can be used to directly help or affect an ally.

Now, with the Imbue Item class feature, you can eventually be very helpful, but most of the time it's all about you.

[MeeposFire]

Mr. Shinken specifically called out melee warlocks in the post that was quoted above, so I assume DR material is in use.

Well you could do a glaive build and that is not dragon mag material but it won't allow you to use many things.

[Sacrieur]

What's all this about the Warlock able to deal a good amount of damage? His damage is nowhere near what a swordsage or warblade would be putting out.

[Hyfigh]

What's all this about the Warlock able to deal a good amount of damage? His damage is nowhere near what a swordsage or warblade would be putting out.

It can be good. Eldritch Glaive and Hellfire Warlock can see to it that you have a bucket load of dice to get it done.

Warlock are niche characters - you can build them to meet a any of a few niches, and they will fill that niche well. They won't, however, be able to do much beyond whatever niche they're filling.

[Sacrieur]

It can be good. Eldritch Glaive and Hellfire Warlock can see to it that you have a bucket load of dice to get it done.

Warlock are niche characters - you can build them to meet a any of a few niches, and they will fill that niche well. They won't, however, be able to do much beyond whatever niche they're filling.

With some cheese and bending the rules you can make that work well, but then it will only be comparable to typical tier 3 power. And as you mentioned yourself, they can't do much else. By the same extension a warblade optimized in the same way will be doing more damage than the warlock would.

The warlock was a good idea for a class, but it was /terribly/ implemented. It's pretty much a trap for new players. "Oh hey, this class looks awesome." Next thing you know the wizard and warblade make you seem useless in combat and since you're a warlock you're crap for everything else.

[Hyfigh]

Adding a dip into Binder isn't cheesey... :smallconfused:
Likewise, the Strongheart Vest stuff works in my opinion; but I'm not getting into that because it's simply opinion - no hard RAW to back up the claim either way.
The fact that it can deal damage like that doesn't bump it to a teir 3... It's still a teir 4. I can build a Warlock 20 that will function as a teir 3, but it takes work. For that matter, though, I can make a Warlock function as a teir 1 with Ur-Thurge crap. This is a moot point and doesn't change that a generically played Warlock is tier 4.

I personally like the class. I don't view it as a trap, so long as it's not played along side well [played teir 1 and 2 classes with the expectation that it will match up to those classes.

[Sacrieur]

Adding a dip into Binder isn't cheesey... :smallconfused:
Likewise, the Strongheart Vest stuff works in my opinion; but I'm not getting into that because it's simply opinion - no hard RAW to back up the claim either way.
The fact that it can deal damage like that doesn't bump it to a teir 3... It's still a teir 4. I can build a Warlock 20 that will function as a teir 3, but it takes work. For that matter, though, I can make a Warlock function as a teir 1 with Ur-Thurge crap. This is a moot point and doesn't change that a generically played Warlock is tier 4.

I personally like the class. I don't view it as a trap, so long as it's not played along side well [played teir 1 and 2 classes with the expectation that it will match up to those classes.

That's the thing though isn't it? The class's fluff gets you all riled up thinking you're going to be wielding some awesome epic power.

"All right man, I made a bloody deal with the devil for BADASS powers."

After gaming session with Wizard and Sorcerer.

"MOTHERFU-"

---

The warlock didn't make some terrible deal to get awesome powers. He made a terrible deal and then got jipped. This makes the character not cool or badass, it makes him a complete idiot.

[Hyfigh]

That's the thing though isn't it? The class's fluff gets you all riled up thinking you're going to be wielding some awesome epic power.

"All right man, I made a bloody deal with the devil for BADASS powers."

After gaming session with Wizard and Sorcerer.

"MOTHERFU-"

---

The warlock didn't make some terrible deal to get awesome powers. He made a terrible deal and then got jipped. This makes the character not cool or badass, it makes him a complete idiot.

... So teir 4 then? :smallamused:

[Sacrieur]

... So teir 4 then? :smallamused:

Lol pretty much, only worse than say Barbarian and Knight because those two classes at least have some redeemable qualities, in addition to being able to do stuff wizard's can't (like drink alcohol without passing out). Warlocks, however, are like an arcane wannabe class. They can't actually cast spells, so they're just... Sucky.

[faceroll]

I think hellfire glaivelocks have higher damage output than ToB classes, but damage output does not have much bearing on the tiers. Utility and versatility do. UMD (ab)use could easily bump the warlock up into competition with other T3s, but then, you can get monk into T3 with UMD.

At will things like Dispel, Flee the Scene, and Flight are actually really solid abilities. It's just that warlocks don't get enough of them to compare with ToB builds. The best Warlock powers are about as good as the best maneuvers; however, between stances, the built in retraining rules and having all good maneuvers (no traps), ToB gets roughly 2x the cool stuff. A martial adept's damage output is rather modest, but they get to have stuff like Moment of Alacrity, Iron Heart Surge, Shadow Blink, Hearing the Air, Wall of Blades and Hydra Slaying Strike. Then they also can get maneuvers to also boost their damage, like Stone Dragon or Tiger Claw stuff.

A crusader has 14 maneuvers and 4 stances at level 20, of which most are high level abilities, thanks to the built in retraining. A warlock has 12 invocations, of which more than half are from low level lists. If you compare invocations and maneuvers, they're about the same when it comes down to what they do, it's just that martial adepts have access to more of them.

I would put a well constructed warlock in T3. They have a handful abilities that let them brute force lateral, out of combat approaches to problems, and with clever use of UMD, they can solve a lot of problems martial adepts would struggle with. Martial Adepts, on the other hand, have a majority of abilities that focus on combat. I don't think they get any ways to dispel magic, for instance, and not all of them have access to things like teleport or flight. They also don't get Charm or AoE battlefield control effects.

[true_shinken]

With some cheese and bending the rules you can make that work well, but then it will only be comparable to typical tier 3 power. And as you mentioned yourself, they can't do much else. By the same extension a warblade optimized in the same way will be doing more damage than the warlock would.

No, not really. Check my guide. Optimizing a Warlock, specially a Glaivelock, for damage requires very little effort. You can deal a lot of damage and you also have more tricks than a martial adept.
Also, a Warblade can't get the damage increasing tricks a Warlock does. Maneuvers don't pack that much of a punch damage-wise, full-attacking plus Power Attack usually does more damage.
Remember, the tier system is not about power or versatility, even. It's about how much your class can acomplish within certain limitations. The limitations established by JaronK just seem to favor the Warblade a bit. In a raw power or versatility comparison, a Warlock is million miles ahead of him because of his crafting alone. Heck, get standard WBL and a Warlock's crafting on a Commoner and you'll probably still come out ahead.


What's all this about the Warlock able to deal a good amount of damage? His damage is nowhere near what a swordsage or warblade would be putting out.
Again, check my guide. Swordsages and Warblades are not even top damage dealers. Optimized Warlocks go toe to toe with actual chargers in damage output.


It can be good. Eldritch Glaive and Hellfire Warlock can see to it that you have a bucket load of dice to get it done.

Exactly. Add Quicken and Maximize and serve with a Rider Kick.


The warlock was a good idea for a class, but it was /terribly/ implemented. It's pretty much a trap for new players. "Oh hey, this class looks awesome." Next thing you know the wizard and warblade make you seem useless in combat and since you're a warlock you're crap for everything else.
A wizard makes everything seem useless in a fight. Like I said, a Warlock could perform a lot better than a Warblade in melee combat, specially since it has better mobility, better range and better defenses.


I think hellfire glaivelocks have higher damage output than ToB classes, but damage output does not have much bearing on the tiers. Utility and versatility do. UMD (ab)use could easily bump the warlock up into competition with other T3s, but then, you can get monk into T3 with UMD.
I completely agree.


At will things like Dispel, Flee the Scene, and Flight are actually really solid abilities.
Indeed. Don't forget at will Black Tentacles.

It's just that warlocks don't get enough of them to compare with ToB builds.
That I disagree with. ^^

The best Warlock powers are about as good as the best maneuvers; however, between stances, the built in retraining rules and having all good maneuvers (no traps), ToB gets roughly 2x the cool stuff. A martial adept's damage output is rather modest, but they get to have stuff like Moment of Alacrity, Iron Heart Surge, Shadow Blink, Hearing the Air, Wall of Blades and Hydra Slaying Strike. Then they also can get maneuvers to also boost their damage, like Stone Dragon or Tiger Claw stuff.
Here I more or less disagree. Or I more or less agree. Let me explain.
Yes, a martial adept gets more maneuvers. The worst maneuvers are usually better than the worst invocations, but I think the best invocations are far, far better than most maneuvers (except for broken readings of White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge).


A crusader has 14 maneuvers and 4 stances at level 20, of which most are high level abilities, thanks to the built in retraining. A warlock has 12 invocations, of which more than half are from low level lists. If you compare invocations and maneuvers, they're about the same when it comes down to what they do, it's just that martial adepts have access to more of them.
Crusaders are a weird choice, since you get random maneuvers and all, but I see your reasoning. I still think invocations are usually stronger and more versatile. They also last more. A warlock can more or less abuse action economy with stuff like Quicken SLA, black tentacles and Sun School. It's harder for a martial adept, and when they get tricks to do this, it's 1/encounter until they refresh.


I would put a well constructed warlock in T3.
So would I.

They have a handful abilities that let them brute force lateral, out of combat approaches to problems, and with clever use of UMD, they can solve a lot of problems martial adepts would struggle with. Martial Adepts, on the other hand, have a majority of abilities that focus on combat. I don't think they get any ways to dispel magic, for instance, and not all of them have access to things like teleport or flight. They also don't get Charm or AoE battlefield control effects.
I agree completely. Very good analysis.

[Particle_Man]

Can you pull off a high damage meelee Warlock w/o using Dragon magazine?

[Cog]

None of the critical things - Quicken SLA, Hellfire Warlock, or Eldritch Glaive - are in Dragon Mag.

[Particle_Man]

Quicken SLA is 3x/day, right?

Hellfire Warlock needs a trick to not lose Con from at least one non-core book (in fact, a "one off" non-core, like Incarnum (from Magic of Incarnum) or Binders (from Tome of Magic))? Or else spend a lot of money and time on wands of restoration, lesser (and spend actions to use them in combat, or allies' actions)?

Eldritch Glaive is with Dragon Magic, right?

Hellfire Warlock is from the second Fiendish Codex?

So in addition to Complete Arcane and MM, we are looking at at least 2-3 "out there" non-core books, not one of the "typical" class books (complete X) or "race" books (races of Y).

This is meant to be the "easy" build? What is the "hard" build? Homebrew? Oh I see, Dragon magazines.

I think we have different definitions of "easy" build here.

When I think "easy" Warlock build, I am thinking PHB, MM, PHB II, Complete Arcane, Complete Mage. So with that, it looks like you can be cool for damage 3x/day (yay SLA feats!) and then not so much. These other books look like the rich kid gets the badass warlock and the poor kid does not. Actually, the rich kid that also knows where to look, but given the internet that is not too hard. But definitely the rich kid with a DM that allows all these books.

[Amphetryon]

Quicken SLA is 3x/day, right?

Hellfire Warlock needs a trick to not lose Con from at least one non-core book (in fact, a "one off" non-core, like Incarnum (from Magic of Incarnum) or Binders (from Tome of Magic))? Or else spend a lot of money and time on wands of restoration, lesser (and spend actions to use them in combat, or allies' actions)?

Eldritch Glaive is with Dragon Magic, right?

Hellfire Warlock is from the second Fiendish Codex?

So in addition to Complete Arcane and MM, we are looking at at least 2-3 "out there" non-core books, not one of the "typical" class books (complete X) or "race" books (races of Y).

This is meant to be the "easy" build? What is the "hard" build? Homebrew? Oh I see, Dragon magazines.

I think we have different definitions of "easy" build here.

When I think "easy" Warlock build, I am thinking PHB, MM, PHB II, Complete Arcane, Complete Mage. So with that, it looks like you can be cool for damage 3x/day (yay SLA feats!) and then not so much. These other books look like the rich kid gets the badass warlock and the poor kid does not. Actually, the rich kid that also knows where to look, but given the internet that is not too hard. But definitely the rich kid with a DM that allows all these books.

Why does the fact that a book doesn't say "Complete" on the cover make it "out there" - by which I assume you mean "obscure"? I've seen games where the allowed source material was "only psionic, ToB or incarnum classes", as well as "no SRD classes, anything else from WotC is a go."

[SolitonMan]

I'm not one to spend time poring over optimizations for a build, I play what seems fun at the time. I played a warlock from level 1 to level 17 in a Shackled City game, and it was a great time! IME, the key to a good warlock is mobility - Spiderwalk at low levels, Fell Flight and Flee the Scene when they're available.

I never tried to improve damage much, other than obtaining a Chasuble of Fell Power (greater) to get an extra couple of dice per blast - totally worth the cost, which was mitigated by the fact that I had my artificer cohort craft it for me.

As far as least invocations and their usefulness in combat, it's true that there isn't much there. However, as far as roleplaying opportunities go, I got a great deal of mileage out of Call of the Beast and Swimming the Styx. With the former, I'd use my wild empathy and speak with animals abilities (along with a wand of charm animal) to recruit rats or mice to sneak into an enemy location after I'd already established a successful scry lock on the beast. Or I'd gather information on the movements of enemies in the Demonskar from birds and such. With the latter, I'd often use my water breathing to fake being attacked by the lake monster in Cauldron, after which I'd simply swim away. This trickery was bolstered by the fact I could use my hat of disguise to appear to be different individuals when I perpetrated this ruse.

I definitely wasn't able to put out as much damage as the warblade or other melee-optimized characters, but I also was rarely attacked, since I was flying and invisible most of the time. I was very effective at using Flee the Scene to put our melee characters just where they needed to be in order to maximize their effectiveness.

I really don't know anything about this "tier" system, from the context I'm supposing someone somewhere used a quantitative analysis to rank the different base classes. All I can say is from experience I had the most fun ever in a D&D game playing a warlock.

[TroubleBrewing]

I would put a well constructed warlock in T3.

This has no bearing on what tier the class belongs in.

Tier is about versatility. Not how well-built one individual specimen of the class is. See Shneeky's Imperious Command Samurai for what might be the crowning example of this phenomenon.

[true_shinken]

Quicken SLA is 3x/day, right?

Hellfire Warlock needs a trick to not lose Con from at least one non-core book (in fact, a "one off" non-core, like Incarnum (from Magic of Incarnum) or Binders (from Tome of Magic))? Or else spend a lot of money and time on wands of restoration, lesser (and spend actions to use them in combat, or allies' actions)?
You actually just need a Rod of Bodily Restoration (dirty cheap) and maybe a familiar to help activating it.
With an odd Con score and high initiative, you don't even need to bother restoring your Con before combat ends, since you'll kill stuff before they have a chance to harm you.


Eldritch Glaive is with Dragon Magic, right?

Hellfire Warlock is from the second Fiendish Codex?

So in addition to Complete Arcane and MM, we are looking at at least 2-3 "out there" non-core books, not one of the "typical" class books (complete X) or "race" books (races of Y).

This is meant to be the "easy" build? What is the "hard" build? Homebrew? Oh I see, Dragon magazines.

I think we have different definitions of "easy" build here.
Are you even familiar with the tier system? Factotum is at tier 3 basically because they can get Iaijutsu Focus with a gnome quickrazor to have a respectable damage output. That's Oriental Adventures (a 3.0 book only updated in a dragon magazine), Races of Stone and Dungeonscape. Your argument makes no sense. A build is not 'hard' because it requires more than a book.


When I think "easy" Warlock build, I am thinking PHB, MM, PHB II, Complete Arcane, Complete Mage. So with that, it looks like you can be cool for damage 3x/day (yay SLA feats!) and then not so much. These other books look like the rich kid gets the badass warlock and the poor kid does not. Actually, the rich kid that also knows where to look, but given the internet that is not too hard. But definitely the rich kid with a DM that allows all these books.
No, you just have to focus on different aspects of the Warlock. Use your eldritch blast to debuff and focus on crafting and UMD. You are still going to be more relevant than any martial adept.



This has no bearing on what tier the class belongs in.

Tier is about versatility. Not how well-built one individual specimen of the class is. See Shneeky's Imperious Command Samurai for what might be the crowning example of this phenomenon.
The tier system is not about versatility. It says so in the thread, even! It is about how well the class can perform in a given environment. Just check the Factotum example I mentioned. JaronK always brings that up. The imperious command Samurai is nothing special. It won an arena fight, which is not the environment the tier system takes into consideration.


Why does the fact that a book doesn't say "Complete" on the cover make it "out there" - by which I assume you mean "obscure"? I've seen games where the allowed source material was "only psionic, ToB or incarnum classes", as well as "no SRD classes, anything else from WotC is a go."
I agree. Maybe his group only has the Complete books or something.

[TroubleBrewing]

The tier system is not about versatility. It says so in the thread, even! It is about how well the class can perform in a given environment.

... :smallconfused:

(pulled directly from the original 'Tier System for Classes' thread) "This post is NOT intended to state which class is "best" or "sucks." It is only a measure of the power and versatility of classes for balance purposes.."

I don't mean to suggest that you haven't done your homework, but you haven't done your homework.

Here, have some reading: Why Tier 4's are in Tier 4. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4874.0)

[Particle_Man]

I would like to see a ranking system that ranks classes using the core three books (phb, MM, dmg) + the book in which a new class is introduced.

As I understand it, the wizards and druids are tier 1 from the get go.

The warblade, crusader, etc, only have their own book to rock their world.

The warlock needs all these other books, including a book specifically to find a work-around the limited use/resource management part of hellfire ability, which was designed to be limited use/resource management?

All that said, I like the warlock in play too. But I don't know what counts as the "hard" build if you have all those resources in your "easy" build.

[true_shinken]

... :smallconfused:

(pulled directly from the original 'Tier System for Classes' thread) "This post is NOT intended to state which class is "best" or "sucks." It is only a measure of the power and versatility of classes for balance purposes.."

I don't mean to suggest that you haven't done your homework, but you haven't done your homework.

Here, have some reading: Why Tier 4's are in Tier 4. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4874.0)

ORLY?

A: The Tier System is not specifically ranking Power or Versitility (though those are what ends up being the big factors).
Here, have a look. I don't mean to suggest that you haven't done your homework, but you haven't done your homework.

[TroubleBrewing]

{{Scrubbed}}

[true_shinken]

"Though those are what end up being the big factors."

It's like you're not reading what you post.

I would advise you to read JaronK's post, really. I've seen the tier system being built back in 339. He goes into length there and here mentioning it is not about about versatility. That is a big factor, but that's not what the tier system is about. That's all I said. It's like you're not reading what you are replying to.
Then again, Warlocks are more versatile than martial adepts. Adepts get mobility, battlefield control and damage. Warlocks get (more) mobility, battlefield control, crafting, shapeshifting and dispelling.

[faceroll]

This has no bearing on what tier the class belongs in.

Tier is about versatility. Not how well-built one individual specimen of the class is. See Shneeky's Imperious Command Samurai for what might be the crowning example of this phenomenon.

Here, see what JaronK has to say on it:

Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier in terms of tier descriptions, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level. As a rule, parties function best when everyone in the party is within 2 Tiers of each other (so a party that's all Tier 2-4 is generally fine, and so is a party that's all Tier 3-5, but a party that has Tier 1 and Tier 5s in it may have issues).

Emphasis mine.
The tier system is a tool for the DM to balance party members such that everyone can have a role.


1) To provide a ranking system so that DMs know roughly the power of the PCs in their group

2) To provide players with knowledge of where their group stands, power wise, so that they can better build characters that fit with their group.

3) To help DMs who plan to use house rules to balance games by showing them where the classes stand before applying said house rules (how many times have we seen DMs pumping up Sorcerers or weakening Monks?).

4) To help DMs judge what should be allowed and what shouldn't in their games. It may sound cheesy when the Fighter player wants to be a Half Minotaur Water Orc, but if the rest of his party is Druid, Cloistered Cleric, Archivist, and Artificer, then maybe you should allow that to balance things out. However, if the player is asking to be allowed to be a Venerable White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer and the rest of the party is a Monk, a Fighter, and a Rogue, maybe you shouldn't let that fly.

For instance, it can be used to limit what sort of game is played, by removing bottom and top tier classes, or can be used to guide optimization within tiers. If everyone is playing martial adepts and psionic classes (the good ones), then a hellfire glaivelock with UMD abuse is fine. If we're looking at barbarians, rogues, and warmages, then vanilla lock and easing up on the crafting (or more party friendly crafting) may be in order.


Then again, Warlocks are more versatile than martial adepts. Adepts get mobility, battlefield control and damage. Warlocks get (more) mobility, battlefield control, crafting, shapeshifting and dispelling.

With UMD use, which people seem to get snooty about. In this case, though, it's a pretty serious class feature for them. Clever UMD use will solidly put a warlock in T3, maybe even let him compete with T2. I've seen enough "can a X solve Y" discussions where the solution is almost always magic items, and I've played enough games with UMD users to know that you can pull some really clutch moves with the right scroll.

An "average" warlock 20 build is T4, maybe T3 with good use of UMD. An optimized warlock is T3, maybe can compete at T2. None of the martial adepts can really compete at a T2 level. They are solidly locked into T3 play. Outside of liberal interpretations of Iron Heart Surge, they don't have any nukes in their arsenal. Martial adepts are funny that way, in that it would be hard to build one at T4.

[true_shinken]

With UMD use, which people seem to get snooty about. In this case, though, it's a pretty serious class feature for them. Clever UMD use will solidly put a warlock in T3, maybe even let him compete with T2. I've seen enough "can a X solve Y" discussions where the solution is almost always magic items, and I've played enough games with UMD users to know that you can pull some really clutch moves with the right scroll.
Yeah, it's a class feature for Warlocks. But I wasn't talking about UMD, I was talking about invocations. Damage (eldritch glaive), mobility (spider walk, fell flight, flee the scene), battlefield control (I always forget the name of the black tentacles invocation), debuffing (various blast essences), shapeshifting (hellspawned grace and humanoid shape through Infernal Adept) and dispelling (I think there are three invocations to do this, even).


An "average" warlock 20 build is T4, maybe T3 with good use of UMD. An optimized warlock is T3, maybe can compete at T2. None of the martial adepts can really compete at a T2 level. They are solidly locked into T3 play. Outside of liberal interpretations of Iron Heart Surge, they don't have any nukes in their arsenal. Martial adepts are funny that way, in that it would be hard to build one at T4.
I think a Swordsage could easily fall at T4 if built for it. Stick to the supernatural disciplines, don't take Adaptive Style, Shadow Blade or TWF.
Otherwise, I completely agree with you.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Warlocks can get surprisingly versatile, though.

Two-level dip in Chameleon and you've got a floating feat. That can be an Invocation you can change on a daily basis, or a crafting feat for when you want to abuse the crafting rules and ride the xp wave.

They also have some very viable debuff and battlefield control options:

Beshadowed Blast: Blind + Damage (as a LESSER Invocation).

Hindering Blast: Slow + Damage.

Noxious Blast: Nauseated + damage.

Bewitching Blast: Confusion + damage.

Repelling Blast: Battlefield Control + damage.

Utterdark Blast: negative levels + damage.

All of the above Blast spells can be used in tandem with either Eldritch chain or Eldritch Cone for area-effect debuffing + damage.

Chilling Tentacles: Battlefield Control + damage.

Charm: At-will turnomancy. Less useful as you run across Immune, but still very viable, and nets you access to Mindsight through Mindbender

The Dead Walk: Disposable Minions. If your party wants, this can be exceedingly nasty in combination with a Bardblade and/or corpsecrafter feats. This can also count as battlefield control and also used to set up Flanking as well.

Voracious Dispelling: Dispel Magic at will. If for no other reason than Counterspelling, this is pretty nasty. He can shut down a Batman Wizard simply by readying actions to counterspell using this. There's a nastier one in CMage that does this better, though.

Dark Foresight: One of the more useful 9th level spells in the game, at-will. Only it gets even better, because you can keep it up on the whole party, AND it's also effectively a Telepathic Bond for FREE.

And all of this from Complete Arcane, without even TOUCHING other sourcebooks.

So yes, Warlocks can do a hell of a lot more than 'just blast'. And an often overlooked advantage is that 90% of what they do is 'debuff PLUS damage' or 'battlefield control PLUS damage', which makes Action Economy cry.

And they can also spam this all day long. GM throws a dozen encounters at you? You'll be just as fresh on encounter #12 as on the first one. If the GM bans Rope Trick/MMM/Genesis/etc... this can be a very important factor.

[faceroll]

What other books have Invocations in them? I've never been that familiar with warlocks until recently, as I have a first time player playing one (and she LOVES it).

[Amphetryon]

What other books have Invocations in them? I've never been that familiar with warlocks until recently, as I have a first time player playing one (and she LOVES it).

Dragon Magic, for the DFA. Many DMs allow a straight-up conversion.

Magic of Incarnum has a couple of them.

[Tael]

Warlocks have VERY few invocations, and the only way they can do respectable damage is in melee with a few very specific build choices. Hence, tier 4.

[true_shinken]

What other books have Invocations in them? I've never been that familiar with warlocks until recently, as I have a first time player playing one (and she LOVES it).

Dragon Magic has a few Warlock invocations. You can also use Dragonfire Adept Invocations with the Infernal Adept feat. Complete Mage, Cityscape, Drow of the Underdark and Magic of Incarnum all have new warlock invocations as well.

[faceroll]

Anything good in complete mage? That's the only book we've got out of those.

She's got a couple levels she hasn't leveled up (from 8 to 10); is Charm worth it for Mindbender & telepathy? I'm thinking it totally is, as she often scouts polymorphed as a mosquito (she's a pixie rogue//warlock) so she can slip through cracks in doors. Being able to talk like that would be good. Plus, Charm = minions. Her other abilities are chain blast, dispel, ebon eyes, and something that makes people sick or scared.

[edit]
Looking in CM. Wow. Warlocks are pretty cool. If she wasn't gestalt, I'd give her extra invocations known.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Anything good in complete mage? That's the only book we've got out of those.

She's got a couple levels she hasn't leveled up (from 8 to 10); is Charm worth it for Mindbender & telepathy? I'm thinking it totally is, as she often scouts polymorphed as a mosquito (she's a pixie rogue//warlock) so she can slip through cracks in doors. Being able to talk like that would be good. Plus, Charm = minions. Her other abilities are chain blast, dispel, ebon eyes, and something that makes people sick or scared.

[edit]
Looking in CM. Wow. Warlocks are pretty cool. If she wasn't gestalt, I'd give her extra invocations known.

Mindbender for Telepathy is worth it for a feat in Lords of Madness called Mindsight. Basically, as long as it isn't Mindless, you know where they are. It's like radar.

But yes, Charm is very handy for a rogue/skillmonkey/scout type character. Charm one of the guards and ask for directions. Easy as that. However, you only get ONE at a time.

[faceroll]

Mindbender for Telepathy is worth it for a feat in Lords of Madness called Mindsight. Basically, as long as it isn't Mindless, you know where they are. It's like radar.

Mindsight makes everything so much harder for me, as DM. I have to keep track of all kinds of stuff. I've ran games with it before, and it often ends up being a stealth nerf, as I tend to forget the player has it.


But yes, Charm is very handy for a rogue/skillmonkey/scout type character. Charm one of the guards and ask for directions. Easy as that. However, you only get ONE at a time.

Well that's good to know. Pixie's got good social skills, I think. She could nab AN ally, would be handy. That's a bit of a relief to me, as a DM, seeing as the party's already kinda big. Combat takes forever.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well that's good to know. Pixie's got good social skills, I think. She could nab AN ally, would be handy. That's a bit of a relief to me, as a DM, seeing as the party's already kinda big. Combat takes forever.

It's a charm, not a dominate. There are limits to what you can get them to do. Specifically, it's doubtful you can get them to attack their other friends. However, you could probably convince them to tell you the fastest way to the captain's quarters...

[Darth Stabber]

I'll never understand why people think iaijutsu focus is a skill for d&d. It makes sense in OA (albeit very little), but it is completely out of place outside of OA. I would not let a player take feats and such out of d20 modern. I would not let them take OA classes, nor would I let them take levels I fast hero.

Not all d20 games are D&D, deal with it.

[MeeposFire]

I'll never understand why people think iaijutsu focus is a skill for d&d. It makes sense in OA (albeit very little), but it is completely out of place outside of OA. I would not let a player take feats and such out of d20 modern. I would not let them take OA classes, nor would I let them take levels I fast hero.

Not all d20 games are D&D, deal with it.

Well you could say the same thing on this comment. Why do some people have a problem with dealing a lot of damage with a strike unless you give it the name sneak attack? I have no problem with the skill so I guess it is coming out even.

[IthroZada]

I'll never understand why people think iaijutsu focus is a skill for d&d. It makes sense in OA (albeit very little), but it is completely out of place outside of OA. I would not let a player take feats and such out of d20 modern. I would not let them take OA classes, nor would I let them take levels I fast hero.

Not all d20 games are D&D, deal with it.

Oriental Adventures has the D&D logo on the cover. It is a D&D game. It is no different from taking a feat from Eberron. It's just a campaign setting.

[Tael]

Oriental Adventures has the D&D logo on the cover. It is a D&D game. It is no different from taking a feat from Eberron. It's just a campaign setting.

While I agree there is nothing wrong with it, if you are not playing in that setting, it's totally reasonable for DM to disallow it.

[MeeposFire]

While I agree there is nothing wrong with it, if you are not playing in that setting, it's totally reasonable for DM to disallow it.

Its also totally reasonable to say there are no archivists in the setting because divine magic requires direct inspiration from a god and studying divine spells won't help you here but I am not going to go around saying "don't use archivists. It makes no sense in X campaign with all those gods that specify..."


There are arguments that make sense but in a general conversation this does not unless we are talking about your campaign which it then becomes Germain.