Doom or Luther?

[GenericGuy]

Between Lex Luthor and Dr. Doom, which Supervillain do think would be better at ruling the world? Given how often these two are presented as would be do gooders if not for their obsession with their respective arch-nemesis, do you think either would build a better world than the one currently?

[Trazoi]

Are we talking about Martin Luther or Martin Luther King Jr.? They're not supervillains.

However either of them would make better leaders than Judge Doom from Who Framed Roger Rabbit?.

Edit: Okay - more seriously, I'm not a big enough comic fan to have an informed answer. But I've read too many snippets from Superman comics from the Silver Age to take Lex Luthor seriously, so I'd probably side with Doc Doom.

[Bouregard]

Between Lex Luthor and Dr. Doom, which Supervillain do think would be better at ruling the world? Given how often these two are presented as would be do gooders if not for their obsession with their respective arch-nemesis, do you think either would build a better world than the one currently?

I would say good ol' Lex Luthor. He has shown multiple times that with Supes gone he's a quite decent guy, powerhungry maybe but a good leader.

[Sacrieur]

Lex Luthor. He unofficially has the highest Int score on the planet. And when he took the US presidency, he turned a huge economic depression around in a matter of months, reduced crime like mad, and pretty much solved every problem. For Lex, he's got a huge ego, but also an obsession to be right and rational.

I just don't see Dr. Doom performing quite on Lex's level.

[Ravens_cry]

Luthor.
I think Lex has every right to fear the Superman. Even if his intentions are pure, the creature has shown repeatedly to be as susceptible as any human to forces that are so beyond our comprehension as to be entitled 'magic'. This is dangerous, very dangerous, as many wielders of these forces have shown to be at best uncaring and at worst outright malevolent to human interests. Kal-El is more dangerous then a nuclear weapon with no launch codes, as a nuclear weapon can only be used once. Simple prudence demands that a way of preventing such a disaster be found. His obsession with the Man of Steel though is a weakness. Prudence is one thing, he has a tendency to take it too far.
Both have run nations, Lex as President of the United States, Doom as President for Life of Latveria, and I think Lex has shown more capability.

[Selrahc]

Doom took a bankrupt eastern European peasant state and turned it into one of the worlds leading economic and military powers.

But despite doing that, he left the majority of the populace toiling in misery.

Doom treats leadership of a country as a springboard for his personal ambitions. And since his personal ambitions include defeating the forces of hell, mastering magic and science, becoming immortal and attaining godhood. Even ruling the Earth is paltry compared to his eventual goals.

Doom would take control of the earth, forge it into a weapon and use it for his own purposes. Perhaps by the end of his rule it would be a galaxy dominating empire, but it would be a tyranny with appalling conditions for its populace.



Lex focuses more on Earth. Making the populace happy and prosperous is just another way to prove his genius and greatness. Human relations are a much more important concern to Luthor.

Luthor would be a much more pleasant lord to live under. He'd make a paradise for us to admire him in.

[Prime32]

It tends to vary whether Doom treats his people well or not. There was at least one story where he took over the world and turned it into a utopia, but then got bored.

[Ravens_cry]

Doom took a bankrupt eastern European peasant state and turned it into one of the worlds leading economic and military powers.

But despite doing that, he left the majority of the populace toiling in misery.

Reminds me of another 'Man of Steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin)'.
Stalin comes from the Russian word for steel.

[KillianHawkeye]

Depends, are we talking about the Gene Hackman version or the Kevin Spacey version? Between the two of them and Julian McMahon, I'd probably vote for Spacey as the best omnipotent ruler. :smallbiggrin:

[chiasaur11]

It tends to vary whether Doom treats his people well or not. There was at least one story where he took over the world and turned it into a utopia, but then got bored.

Took over the world and got bored twice.

Once he didn't muck with much.

Other time he turned the world into a utopia, yeah. Didn't so much give it up as let Captain America wreck it.

And I'm going with Doom. Sure, horrible person.

Petty person.

But they both are. It's just that Doom, despite his pettiness, can do some good. Even with his Richards vendetta, he took over a country and ran it better than any other leader they've had for everyone, saved his mother from Satan, took over the world twice, and managed to do a lot of good.

If Doom could just get over his pride for five minutes, he'd be a great man.

If he could get over for it permanently, he'd be a great man and a happy one.

And eventually, at least sometimes, he does. Barely. Future-Doom, in the classic McDuffie run on FF, admits that Reed always was the better man. What If had a Doom who was able to go "Alright. I'll check the math. Happy?" once, and he became one of the world's greatest heroes.

Still had tragedy, but well, said he'd only be happy if he got over himself permanently.

Give Doom a world without Reed Richards, and he's running it.

Luthor?

Give him a year without Superman, and he's still trying to take revenge on one of the saintliest men ever to wear a cape. He cures cancer just to kill Superman.

Momma Kent's boy is a good man. Sure, making sure the world can survive if he goes bad is good sense, but that you can cover by talking to the man. He'll help you set up the defenses. And Luthor hates him for being good.

Reed Richards is a good man. Doom hates him for being better. Still bad. Still petty. And without him, Doom would still be, in his heart, a bad and petty man. But he'd focus on, once he'd proven himself the absolute best, doing good for all mankind just to show off.

Luthor?

If he didn't have Kent, he'd find someone else.

Some priest, or social worker, or honest politician. Maybe John Henry Irons. And he would try to break him. If that failed, he would kill him. Because Lex Luthor can't accept that there's someone out there better than him.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Doom.

Luther's presidency didn't last that long. Luther is more a follower of Nietche, Doom is more Machiavellian. Luther would have a better education system but would let those who can't better themselves rot.

[Sarco_Phage]

Actually, Reed Richards isn't really the best person either. He and Doom deserve each other.

[chiasaur11]

Actually, Reed Richards isn't really the best person either. He and Doom deserve each other.

Oh boy.

Think I know where this is going, but for the record, what's your argument?

Richards is absent minded and kind of a bad to hilariously awful dad, but ignoring Civil War, he's also a genuinely decent man. Also, one of the least egotistical people in comics, making the Doom rivalry even better.

[Sacrieur]

On the flip side what would Luthor be like if he didn't have such a huge ego? We got a glimpse of it in Crisis on Two Earths. That Lex Luthor was an incredibly humble, cautious individual. But he was still wicked intelligent.

[Gaius Marius]

On the flip side what would Luthor be like if he didn't have such a huge ego? We got a glimpse of it in Crisis on Two Earths. That Lex Luthor was an incredibly humble, cautious individual. But he was still wicked intelligent.

The problem isn't that Lex Luthor has too big an ego. He just need to conquer the ennemy he sets for himself.

In Red Son, after finally beating Superman, he created the Eternal Golden Age of Humanity.

So, for Lex Luthor to actually start doing go for humanity, he first have to destroy whomever dares to be his challenger as Humanity's hero.

[Sarco_Phage]

Oh boy.

Think I know where this is going, but for the record, what's your argument?

Richards is absent minded and kind of a bad to hilariously awful dad, but ignoring Civil War, he's also a genuinely decent man. Also, one of the least egotistical people in comics, making the Doom rivalry even better.

That's the thing - you can't ignore Civil War. He's shown himself capable of great douchiness when pressed, and inconsistency. Thanks to poor writing, that's now a part of his character.

He needs an enemy that forces him to rise above himself, and Doom is that.

[Sacrieur]

The problem isn't that Lex Luthor has too big an ego. He just need to conquer the ennemy he sets for himself.

In Red Son, after finally beating Superman, he created the Eternal Golden Age of Humanity.

So, for Lex Luthor to actually start doing go for humanity, he first have to destroy whomever dares to be his challenger as Humanity's hero.

It is my personal belief that Lex Luthor does not hate on Superman as much as he would like people to think. If that were true, Superman would easily be dead by now.

[Sarco_Phage]

It is my personal belief that Lex Luthor does not hate on Superman as much as he would like people to think. If that were true, Superman would easily be dead by now.

^ Case in point: people tend to glorify Luthor as far more capable than he's actually presented, making a fan-fictional Luthor to fit their mental picture of him.

EDIT: However, that's your opinion, and I'm under obligation as an officer and a gentleman to respect it.

[Sacrieur]

^ Case in point: people tend to glorify Luthor as far more capable than he's actually presented, making a fan-fictional Luthor to fit their mental picture of him.

EDIT: However, that's your opinion, and I'm under obligation as an officer and a gentleman to respect it.

No really though. My intelligence is nowhere /near/ Luthor's and the solution of ridding superman is actually REALLY easy. I can't even count how many times Luthor has had Superman on the ground before him, completely helpless from Kryptonite. All that needs to be done is a blade with a Kryptonite edge to decapitate him. Luthor has both the knowledge and the resources to make one.

It all just makes me question why Luthor keeps him alive. It's like Luthor uses an incredibly clever ploy to catch Superman, and then all of the sudden his IQ drops to zero and makes incredibly judgmental errors and completely idiotic moves. Like leaving before Superman is actually doomed or otherwise. It's like the only reason Superman is even still alive is because of plot armor.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I'd vote Doom.

Because if I'm gonna be ruled by an egomaniacal evil mastermind, I wanna be ruled by an egomaniacal evil mastermind with style.

[Sarco_Phage]

OR, Luthor's not as smart as you'd think.

Remember, he has plenty of psychological issues. He might have the gumption to pull off a plan, but not the gumption to kill Superman. You say plot armor, I say that this is textual evidence for the fact that Luthor is nowhere near as awesome as people believe he is.

Similarly, you could ask: how come Superman never manages to put Luthor away for good? I can say "plot armor". Or I could do the more sensible thing and look at the textual evidence*.

EDIT:

*The textual evidence is that Metropolis has lousy jails, Lex has amazing lawyers, and Superman is too trusting.

[Lurkmoar]

Doom. He got his mother's soul out of hell. Took over the world twice, plus he's a master of science and magic.

I can't remember any time Luthor has done anything remotely as badass, except for his DCAU finale where he beats Darkseid.

Both have pretty glaring flaws though. And both have done some utterly horrible things to their fellow men.

[Gaius Marius]

Oohhhh my...

so, we have to elect Doom or Luthor as President? It's the American electoral campaign all over again! :smallwink:

[Sacrieur]

OR, Luthor's not as smart as you'd think.

Remember, he has plenty of psychological issues. He might have the gumption to pull off a plan, but not the gumption to kill Superman. You say plot armor, I say that this is textual evidence for the fact that Luthor is nowhere near as awesome as people believe he is.

Similarly, you could ask: how come Superman never manages to put Luthor away for good? I can say "plot armor". Or I could do the more sensible thing and look at the textual evidence*.

EDIT:

*The textual evidence is that Metropolis has lousy jails, Lex has amazing lawyers, and Superman is too trusting.


Lex Luthor has the physical capabilities and limitations of a normal adult with no metahuman abilities. However, he possesses a genius level of intelligence. For virtually his entire publication history, he has been depicted as the most intelligent human in the DC Universe, and as one of the most intelligent beings of any planet or species. He has mastered seemingly every known form of science, including space travel, extra-dimensional travel, biochemistry, robotics, computers, synthetic polymers, communications, mutations, transportation, holography, energy generation, spectral analysis, and more (including time travel in many Pre-Crisis stories). With the exception of the renegade Coluan scientist Brainiac, he does not view any other being as an intellectual peer.

So you can see where I may be confused.

[Sarco_Phage]

Like I mentioned, his inconsistency is now an inextricable part of his character. Declaring something is personally "non-canon" in the main canon verse is not the resort of a Real Man/Woman (tm).

Also, he'd probably have a hard time killing Superman now, considering Supes went up against a Doomsday clone who was partly made out of Kryptonite and managed superbly.:smallsigh:

Supes is finally approaching Kingdom Come power levels, thank god.

[chiasaur11]

That's the thing - you can't ignore Civil War. He's shown himself capable of great douchiness when pressed, and inconsistency. Thanks to poor writing, that's now a part of his character.

He needs an enemy that forces him to rise above himself, and Doom is that.

Kinda have to if the plot of the entire Marvel universe is to have anyone be likable.

It was "Everyone is an out of character douche: THE SERIES"

Prior, Richards had outright testified to the Senate against such an act, then got in a fistfight with them over it.

Post, under McDuffie and Hickman, it was the only way to prevent humanity from being wiped out, and he didn't like it then, making it a bit of a Mordin Solus scenario.

It's just the (awful) JMS run and main Civil War (also awful) that had him act like he liked totalitarian oppression, and those fall under the Mopee clause.

Edit: And Luthor's smart, but petty as sin. If he actually wanted to, if he was as good a man as he claims to be, he could cure cancer, make Metropolis as close to paradise on Earth as you can get with people still being people, and a million other things. He just is so small he can't think of anything beyond "REVENGE ON THE ALIEN!", so petty he can't accept there being anywhere in the heavens anything that can make him feel small.

And every time I see "I could kill Superman" I kinda sigh. Partially because that's not the point. Mostly because the plans are inevitably awful and poorly thought out.

[Sarco_Phage]

Kinda have to if the plot of the entire Marvel universe is to have anyone be likable.

People make bad decisions. Keep in mind that as soon as something is canonized, it becomes in-character, and Civil War is, unfortunately canon.

Besides, if the plot of the entire Marvel universe was to have a whole array of sympathetic characters, you still have people like the Punisher. Ennis, his best writer, is on record as saying the Punisher is a psychopathic trigger-happy manchild [not his exact words] with no redeeming qualities, and anyone who roots for him is doing it wrong.

[chiasaur11]

People make bad decisions. Keep in mind that as soon as something is canonized, it becomes in-character, and Civil War is, unfortunately canon.

Besides, if the plot of the entire Marvel universe was to have a whole array of sympathetic characters, you still have people like the Punisher. Ennis, his best writer, is on record as saying the Punisher is a psychopathic trigger-happy manchild [not his exact words] with no redeeming qualities, and anyone who roots for him is doing it wrong.

I didn't say it made some people unlikable.

I said it made everyone unlikable idiots who shifted character radically for about a year incomprehensibly.

Holding to continuity as the most sacred of things is holding the entirety of Marvel and DC publication history (including a good deal of genuine, no fooling masterworks) hostage to the whims of the worst writer they have ever employed.

In fact, it gives more power to the worst, most careless writers and artists while reducing the reach of the good ones.

I'm fine with continuity as a tapestry. Get a mite irritated when it becomes a straight-jacket.

Also, if we're playing that game?

That was the Earth A Reed Richards. Main Richards was just doing cleanup. Done.

She-Hulk #21. The instant answer to any and all bad writers for the continuity nerd. Best solution since the invention of the doombot.

And if that doesn't do it, I have a thesis sitting around somewhere confirming, using continuity, that Warren Ellis was right, Nextwave is the only comic set in 616, and all others are Skrulls.

[Sarco_Phage]

I agree that continuity shouldn't be a straitjacket, but the problem is that it is one. Writers are constantly grappling with each other to undo changes that the fans or they, personally disliked, or ones that don't fit with what they want to do with the character.

That's the sad reality of the main universes, and the strongest argument for universal retcons/reboots/Elseworlds stories.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm tempted to vote for the one who wasn't beaten by Squirrel Girl, but that was only a Doombot anyways.

[Sarco_Phage]

I'm tempted to vote for the one who wasn't beaten by Squirrel Girl, but that was only a Doombot anyways.

She's beaten him twice, though.

[shadow_archmagi]

*Thinks back to his childhood*

Tom Brindle: Remember son... if you ever have to choose between two opposing political powers, choose the one that is NOT A WIZARD.

Well, that settles it. Lex it is.

[The Glyphstone]

She's beaten him twice, though.

Also a Doombot?

[Sarco_Phage]

Also a Doombot?

Very likely, but Doombots are pretty powerful to begin with. She's no slouch if she can take them down.

And then there was that one time she forced her way into Latveria alone, with Doom afraid to confront her.

I don't blame him, though. Would you willingly fight this?

http://www.the-isb.com/images/SquirrelGirl02.jpg

[chiasaur11]

Gods and kings, heroes and villains, they all agree there are rules all sensible people follow.

Don't tug on Superman's cape.

Don't spit into the wind.

Don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger.

Don't be ashamed of losing to Squirrel Girl. Merely take measures to ensure it never happens again.

Those measures consist of finding out where she's planning to go, and staying as far away as possible. Everybody loses to Squirrel Girl. A.I.M. calls her the great destroyer, and they're scientists.

[Lurkmoar]

Pfft, everybody knows that Squirrel Girl's real power is taking potshots at fanboys and reality warping. She's pure Silver Age with a mixture of 'you suck' for reading this.

Besides, I say it was a Doombot she beat, and a clone of Thanos she trounced. Her most impressive feat was beating Deadpool though. I do count that.

Getting back to Lex Luthor and Doctor Doom (wow, comics really love those alliterative names) the measure of the characters are what conflicts they're apart of (or what they instigate rather). Lex Luthor's primary flaw seems to be greed and pride, while Doctor Doom only suffers from pride.

Off the top of my head, I can remember Doom trumping the Beyonder in Secret Wars, getting his hands on the cosmic cube, obtaining near magical acumen that allowed him to beat Doctor Strange and the Fantastic Four for a time PLUS he has a functioning Time Machine. But because of how time travel works in the Marvel universe it might as well be used as garbage disposal.

For Lex Luthor, while I can recall some very entertaining and thought provoking stories... I just don't recall him coming as close to victory. He did become President of the US, then sexy Lexy lost it a totally stupid manner...

[Sarco_Phage]

Pfft, everybody knows that Squirrel Girl's real power is taking potshots at fanboys and reality warping. She's pure Silver Age with a mixture of 'you suck' for reading this.

Besides, I say it was a Doombot she beat, and a clone of Thanos she trounced. Her most impressive feat was beating Deadpool though. I do count that.

Getting back to Lex Luthor and Doctor Doom (wow, comics really love those alliterative names) the measure of the characters are what conflicts they're apart of (or what they instigate rather). Lex Luthor's primary flaw seems to be greed and pride, while Doctor Doom only suffers from pride.

Off the top of my head, I can remember Doom trumping the Beyonder in Secret Wars, getting his hands on the cosmic cube, obtaining near magical acumen that allowed him to beat Doctor Strange and the Fantastic Four for a time PLUS he has a functioning Time Machine. But because of how time travel works in the Marvel universe it might as well be used as garbage disposal.

For Lex Luthor, while I can recall some very entertaining and thought provoking stories... I just don't recall him coming as close to victory. He did become President of the US, then sexy Lexy lost it a totally stupid manner...

Lex was insane, in all fairness. Also his plot in that case was quite... "advanced". By which I mean stupid.

Anyway, beating the whole F4 isn't an achievement, since only Sue Storm and Johnny Storm are real threats in a fight (and good god damn, they are some serious threats). Beating Doctor Strange? Now that's something, right there.

[chiasaur11]

Lex was insane, in all fairness. Also his plot in that case was quite... "advanced". By which I mean stupid.

Anyway, beating the whole F4 isn't an achievement, since only Sue Storm and Johnny Storm are real threats in a fight (and good god damn, they are some serious threats). Beating Doctor Strange? Now that's something, right there.

Uh, being class 80 and too stubborn to quit in the face of infinite strength is nothing now?

And that ignores that Reed Richards is the world's leading inventor of death rays, science bombs, and super-brass-knuckles. Simonson run AND the Lee/Kirby run have him kicking more than his fair share of behind. In fact, several sensible villains have called him the most dangerous of the bunch. Including Victor Von Doom.

Oh, and his powers are rather useful if considered. Incredible damage resistance, infiltration potential, solid force multiplier.

(Also, the Watcher was there with Thanos to confirm it was the real deal. And it's a reasonable bet "Doombot" was an ego covering move.)

[NineThePuma]

Glyphstone! It's been confirmed by Word of God that Doom is REALLY scared of SG.


On that note: Doom has really been dead since the late 60s.

All appearances since then have been doom bots.

I am prepared to welcome our robot overlords.

[Sarco_Phage]

Uh, being class 80 and too stubborn to quit in the face of infinite strength is nothing now?

And that ignores that Reed Richards is the world's leading inventor of death rays, science bombs, and super-brass-knuckles. Simonson run AND the Lee/Kirby run have him kicking more than his fair share of behind. In fact, several sensible villains have called him the most dangerous of the bunch. Including Victor Von Doom.

Oh, and his powers are rather useful if considered. Incredible damage resistance, infiltration potential, solid force multiplier.

(Also, the Watcher was there with Thanos to confirm it was the real deal. And it's a reasonable bet "Doombot" was an ego covering move.)

You know what, I'm gonna stop you right there and come out with the fact that I haven't read FF since Sue and Johnny were officially the most powerful members.

I hear Johnny's dead now. This true?

[NineThePuma]

You know what, I'm gonna stop you right there and come out with the fact that I haven't read FF since Sue and Johnny were officially the most powerful members.

I hear Johnny's dead now. This true?

... GAH!

Your argument is based on info that may or may not be outdated.

I will acknowledge that Sue Richards is the strongest of the Fantastic Four tho.

[Fjolnir]

Doom didn't beat Doctor Strange, He deliberately threw a match in the competition to become the new sorcerer supreme to gain a boon as the runner up, which he used to force Dr Strange into going to hell to free his mother with him. Dr Doom DID try to trade Strange for his mother but she refused, becoming too pure a soul to stay in hell and allowing Dr Strange to escape, it is implied that Doom could have become Sorcerer Supreme in that battle though.

He may have beaten him after that, but that's the doom/strange thing I remember.

[chiasaur11]

... GAH!

Your argument is based on info that may or may not be outdated.

I will acknowledge that Sue Richards is the strongest of the Fantastic Four tho.

Yeah, raw firepower she's the big gun. Also, she's the only one with a good healthy ruthless streak.

Reed's still the most dangerous in a lot of scenarios. Seriously, everyone should read the Simonson run. Time travel duels, hacking reality, saving the entire universe, killing the dreaming celestial, all kinds of great. Last gasp of greatness pre-90s rot for the team.

But that's the thing.

Even the weakest link, no matter who it is, is very top tier. Like their boring Friday night is the rest of the MU's crisis crossover.

Annihilus. Perfect example.

Ben, he fights him on Christmas. Slobberknocker, but he manages to survive.

Annihilus fights the not-FF? It takes everyone to stop him. SKIN OF THEIR TEETH.

Or to reverse things, one time everyone's low to mid tier foes went after the FF at once. Acts of Vengeance. It was just a really irritating afternoon between that and the senate hearing to argue against a hero registration act. Gave a good speech. Nobody even managed to give them five minute's trouble.

[Lurkmoar]

Glyphstone! It's been confirmed by Word of God that Doom is REALLY scared of SG.

There's like 30 different Words of God when it comes to comics. Word of God might as well be Word of Dante. Like how She-Hulk slept with the Juggernaut. Only she didn't(It was an alternate universe version of her! Or was it him?). But then she did!



Doom didn't beat Doctor Strange, He deliberately threw a match in the competition to become the new sorcerer supreme to gain a boon as the runner up, which he used to force Dr Strange into going to hell to free his mother with him. Dr Doom DID try to trade Strange for his mother but she refused, becoming too pure a soul to stay in hell and allowing Dr Strange to escape, it is implied that Doom could have become Sorcerer Supreme in that battle though.

He may have beaten him after that, but that's the doom/strange thing I remember.

Yes, he did beat him after that. He broke his neck before attacking the FF with new found magical power. Obviously, Strange got better.

[MammonAzrael]

I haven't read the whole thread (yet), so I don't know if this has been mentioned but...Red Son.

My vote goes to Lex here. Both as the better ruler, and the man I'd rather be ruled by.

EDIT: That's assuming a Red Son style of Luthor, though, which is questionable at best.

[Sarco_Phage]

EDIT: That's assuming a Red Son style of Luthor, though, which is questionable at best.

The Lex of Red Son isn't the main universe Lex. He's an actual success, for one.

[TheEmerged]

Interesting point with regards to both characters having ego as their main driving force and character flaw.

Doom's ego causes him to make life as good as he can for his people, albeit by HIS definition of good instead of theirs. This is what makes him a monster (not a mere villain).

Lex's ego causes him to drive up to waitresses, offer them a million bucks to sleep with him, and then drive off before they can answer. His stated reason for doing this is so they have to spend the rest of their life wondering how they'd have answered. If I remember correctly, the story made clear this isn't something he's just done once or twice. And yes, that's canon.

[comicshorse]

Interesting point with regards to both characters having ego as their main driving force and character flaw.

Doom's ego causes him to make life as good as he can for his people, albeit by HIS definition of good instead of theirs. This is what makes him a monster (not a mere villain).

Lex's ego causes him to drive up to waitresses, offer them a million bucks to sleep with him, and then drive off before they can answer. His stated reason for doing this is so they have to spend the rest of their life wondering how they'd have answered. Yes, that's canon.

Not to mention murdering his unarmed combat instructor because she actually threw him in a sparring session

[TheEmerged]

Not to mention murdering his unarmed combat instructor because she actually threw him in a sparring session

Yeah, but we *expect* villains to kill :smallbiggrin: Besides, they're both pretty petty. Doing that to a waitress though? Just for giggles? Maybe being a waiter back in the day colors my judgment :smallredface:

[comicshorse]

It really is Luthor's pettiness that always annoyed me, I can't think of anything Doom has ever done that matched Luthor for pettiness. Examples please ?

[Gaius Marius]

It really is Luthor's pettiness that always annoyed me, I can't think of anything Doom has ever done that matched Luthor for pettiness. Examples please ?

Blowing up his face just because he couldn't dare double-check his calculations?

[Mewtarthio]

Blowing up his face just because he couldn't dare double-check his calculations?

That was his own face that got blown up, though. He never does any of the "Ha, ha! I've made someone cry!" (http://tinyurl.com/5355l2) variety of evil.

Anyways, I vote for Luther, because Luther is easier to overthrow. :smalltongue:

[Forum Explorer]

*Thinks back to his childhood*

Tom Brindle: Remember son... if you ever have to choose between two opposing political powers, choose the one that is NOT A WIZARD.

Well, that settles it. Lex it is.

Really? because I got the opposite advice :smallwink:

[chiasaur11]

That was his own face that got blown up, though. He never does any of the "Ha, ha! I've made someone cry!" (http://tinyurl.com/5355l2) variety of evil.

Anyways, I vote for Luther, because Luther is easier to overthrow. :smalltongue:

I guess his whole vendetta vis a vis RIIIIICCCCHHHHHAAAAAARRRRDDDSSSS! with the family getting involved could be called petty.

But even then, he puts the effort in to look classy.

Fake diary to make Reed doubt himself, claiming Reed intentionally broke the rocket shielding to get superpowers for everyone. Most people that wouldn't work, but Reed Richards:

1) Is absent minded on personal stuff at the best of times. He'd totally buy "Oh, I forgot all about my secret plans here! Heh. Wait until I tell my son, Fred or something. Theodore? I do have a son, right? I should ask Sue."

2) Is a good man, and thus always assumes the worst about himself.

So then Richards is a self doubting wreck, right as he's doing a sensitive life saving operation. Luthor would just rub it in, laugh, all that. You know, standard gloating.

Doom politely offers to step in and do it for Reed himself, in the most friendly "we all have problems sometimes" tone. Because the important thing is having Richards know he's your inferior. All else is details.

[Ravens_cry]

The trouble with these arguments is different writer and artist means a different charachter, even ignoring reboots, retcons, and alternate medium portrayals. Both can be petty little men with major issues, though I think Lex Luthors is more justified.

[Zaydos]

I'd say Doom. He's shown he is capable of creating a utopia (both main canon and in the Spider-Man TV show version of the Secret Wars).

Lex is too petty. Some of the alternate continuity Luthors (Red Son) have risen above that but they are fundamentally different than main continuity Luthor.

Plus Doom can match his brain with Dr. Strange and Mr. Fantastic and still make a better place for his people. Luthor deals with Superman and can't win often ruining himself.

[Telonius]

Oohhhh my...

so, we have to elect Doom or Luthor as President? It's the American electoral campaign all over again! :smallwink:

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos. :smallbiggrin:

[Fjolnir]

Remember, Dr. Doom and Lex both hold their grudges for similar reasons. Superman saved Lex's life in college and made him BALD.

[Ravens_cry]

Remember, Dr. Doom and Lex both hold their grudges for similar reasons. Superman saved Lex's life in college and made him BALD.

Only if you go all Silver Age, a time of zoot suit wearing gorillas (http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/183/) and Bat Shark Repellent.
To the best of my knowledge, Lex now fears Superman now because he is power without a counter and is possibly holding back human progress by their dependence on him. Yes, he can, and has, been petty. But at least he has some rational concerns rather then just petty revelry. 'Just' mind you. At least, I find them rational.

[Sarco_Phage]

Only if you go all Silver Age, a time of zoot suit wearing gorillas (http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/183/) and Bat Shark Repellent.
To the best of my knowledge, Lex now fears Superman now because he is power without a counter and is possibly holding back human progress by their dependence on him.

Those are just his justifications. The real reason, as many others mention, is ego. Lex should be the most powerful man on earth, not some alien upstart, stealin human jobs and takin human women decreasing Lex's opportunities to bilk the world and look good while doing so.

When it comes right down to it, Lex is an evil little ****. Remember 52? Yeah.

[WitchSlayer]

I'm writing in Superman Mr Terrific, thank you very much.

[Ravens_cry]

Those are just his justifications. The real reason, as many others mention, is ego. Lex should be the most powerful man on earth, not some alien upstart, stealin human jobs and takin human women decreasing Lex's opportunities to bilk the world and look good while doing so.

When it comes right down to it, Lex is an evil little ****. Remember 52? Yeah.

And Dr. Doom doesn't have an ego? The guy is so fragile he goes after an entire family because of something that was his fault. Yeah, its half of one, two quarters of the other, but between the two, I would still go Lex when at his best. Sometimes it's a just a front, sometimes it his actual fears (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Luthor:_Man_of_Steel), and I would fear it too if I was in his place. I was sided with Cadmus when I watched Justice League until they went all cackling evil.

[Sarco_Phage]

...

Cadmus went cackling evil? As far as I remember, they had pretty well written goals and ideals, and a good point that stemmed partly from the amazing Kingdom Come.

Anyway, I was just addressing your misguided opinion of Lex's primary nature, not his suitability versus Doom. I have full confidence that Lex wouldn't run, screaming, like a little girl, from a mutant teenager in a squirrel outfit.

[Tyndmyr]

Between Lex Luthor and Dr. Doom, which Supervillain do think would be better at ruling the world? Given how often these two are presented as would be do gooders if not for their obsession with their respective arch-nemesis, do you think either would build a better world than the one currently?

Doom. He has taken over the world, and been fairly good at it. He is routinely in charge of governing Latvia, which seems to do aright. Luthor, on the other hand, manages to waste every chance at real power on personal venegance and the like.

Also, I'd probably choose Doom over Mr Fantastic. Sure, he's a good dude. And also smart. But he never actually amounts to anything. He does all this wild science, but never actually changes the world. Doom is not so limited.

[chiasaur11]

...

Cadmus went cackling evil? As far as I remember, they had pretty well written goals and ideals, and a good point that stemmed partly from the amazing Kingdom Come.

Anyway, I was just addressing your misguided opinion of Lex's primary nature, not his suitability versus Doom. I have full confidence that Lex wouldn't run, screaming, like a little girl, from a mutant teenager in a squirrel outfit.

DOOM does not run screaming.

He is just very polite and very accommodating, because he's not suicidal.

Look at the record:

Doctor Doom
Mandarin
Giganto
MODOK
Thanos
Terrax
Bug-Eyed Voice
Bi-Beast
Deadpool
Pluto
Fin Fang Foom
Baron Mordo
Korvac
Ego the Living Planet

Some of those guys have beaten the entire Avengers lineup solo. Luthor'd either get real far away, or real humiliated.

[Sarco_Phage]

Now now, Luthor too can be polite, and like Doom, has a self-preservation instinct.

Doreen, on the other hand, despite all of her power, is naive.

I think Luthor can play the gentleman for long enough to turn her against that evil, evil, alien man.

[MammonAzrael]

As far as I am aware, Luthor doesn't have the same hard-on for killing Batman that he does for Supes. So I don't think his ego can be the only thing that keeps him so focused on the alien, his belief in humanity is a huge part of him. I'm not sure who is canonically smarter of the two (Wayne or Luthor), but I've always had the impression that the two are peers.

One would think that if ego were truly Luthor's only real reason for gunning for Superman, then he'd hate Batman even more, given that he is another human of equal, if not greater, skill and intellect and not just some alien with absurdly powerful abilities.

[Sarco_Phage]

Peers?

I think you missed the hideous corporate slugfest between Wayne Enterprises and Lexcorp, which ended in Wayne Enterprises buying Lexcorp out thanks to Talia Al-Ghul taking over te company while Lex was president.

Also, Lex has no real respect for anyone who isn't himself. He is like Doom in this regard.

[MammonAzrael]

Peers?

I think you missed the hideous corporate slugfest between Wayne Enterprises and Lexcorp, which ended in Wayne Enterprises buying Lexcorp out thanks to Talia Al-Ghul taking over te company while Lex was president.

Also, Lex has no real respect for anyone who isn't himself. He is like Doom in this regard.

I remember the slugfest, but AFAIK it wasn't the same, "I want you dead!" approach that Luthor takes to Superman. Ruining your main competitors is fairly standard practice for enormous corporations with questionable business ethics.

All I'm saying is that if ego were really the only driving force behind his desire to see Superman dead, then he should be gunning for Batman just as much, if not more. Because Superman can only compete with Luthor because he is an alien with crazy natural advantages, while Batman is just as smart, if not smarter that Lex, able to compete with Luthor without any alien advantage. Starting on an equal footing like that would drive Luthor even crazier if ego were his only motivation.

[Traab]

I remember the slugfest, but AFAIK it wasn't the same, "I want you dead!" approach that Luthor takes to Superman. Ruining your main competitors is fairly standard practice for enormous corporations with questionable business ethics.

All I'm saying is that if ego were really the only driving force behind his desire to see Superman dead, then he should be gunning for Batman just as much, if not more. Because Superman can only compete with Luthor because he is an alien with crazy natural advantages, while Batman is just as smart, if not smarter that Lex, able to compete with Luthor without any alien advantage. Starting on an equal footing like that would drive Luthor even crazier if ego were his only motivation.

Except that pre justice league, lex had no freaking reason to give a rats ass about batman. Batman is in gotham, batman doesnt care what happens in metropolis, so long as it doesnt hit his town. Also, isnt batman mostly a detective, not a brilliant inventor? Superman, on the other hand, is constantly ruining whatever underhanded business deal lex has setup this month. Not too mention all those billions and billions of dollars worth of robots and ultra weapons designed solely to kill superman.

[Ravens_cry]

...

Cadmus went cackling evil? As far as I remember, they had pretty well written goals and ideals, and a good point that stemmed partly from the amazing Kingdom Come.
Near the end of JLU, they got a bit cackly. You know, with General ROSS SMASH! But for the most part, they indeed raised some excellent points. Why DOES the Justice League have a giant laser cannon pointed AT EARTH? And the scary thing is that is not the most scary thing. The most scary thing is the Justice Lords. It wasn't an alien virus, mind control, or demonic possession, it was a decision made of their own free will. Now that is scary.


Anyway, I was just addressing your misguided opinion of Lex's primary nature, not his suitability versus Doom. I have full confidence that Lex wouldn't run, screaming, like a little girl, from a mutant teenager in a squirrel outfit.
I wouldn't say it is misguided, I would say we are talking about different versions of the same charachter. In some, I agree it's not his primary nature. In others, well, I disagree.

[Sarco_Phage]

Near the end of JLU, they got a bit cackly. You know, with General ROSS SMASH! But for the most part, they indeed raised some excellent points. Why DOES the Justice League have a giant laser cannon pointed AT EARTH? And the scary thing is that is not the most scary thing. The most scary thing is the Justice Lords. It wasn't an alien virus, mind control, or demonic possession, it was a decision made of their own free will. Now that is scary.

I wouldn't say it is misguided, I would say we are talking about different versions of the same charachter. In some, I agree it's not his primary nature. In others, well, I disagree.

Indeed.

I loved that about Justice League, the fact that the effects of a mind-controlled Superman in S:TAS carried over well into the final parts of JLU. That episode with Eiling was really good.

That wasn't CADMUS, as far as I remember, but CADMUS rogue elements. Eiling snapped and went on a Hulk-rampage, Doctor Bowl-Cut Guy snapped and unleashed Doomsday (got his head popped like a grape, first), and the like.

[druid91]

That was his own face that got blown up, though. He never does any of the "Ha, ha! I've made someone cry!" (http://tinyurl.com/5355l2) variety of evil.

Anyways, I vote for Luther, because Luther is easier to overthrow. :smalltongue:

Perhaps I'm weird, but I laughed until I hurt when I saw this.