what is the the most optimized charger build?

[Vengeful_bob]

I just started with a group that doesn’t use strictly core books so I was trying to find an optimized charger build so I’m not completely useless as a fighter/barbarian or whatever. Could someone give me a hand please :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

What are the other players builds like? Some melee builds do damage best expressed in scientific notation. You may, or may not, want such builds.

[Vengeful_bob]

i just want something that does rediculas damage without that much magic the DM limits it a lot. I will take all awesome charger classes of doom....

[faceroll]

Charging is a trap; don't do it. To many things interrupt straight lines. If you are really stuck on charging, you're going to want the psionic feat that let's you turn while charging and a way to fly.

[Goonthegoof]

And in case you haven't been lurking around the forums much, charging is ridiculously easy to optimise- Take one level of spirit lion totem barbarian and grab power attack, leap attack, shock trooper and any other related feats you can find. You'll do more damage in one turn than any creature printed has hit points and your DM will either throw his DMG at you or start using creatures that charging in a straight line doesn't work against.

[Vengeful_bob]

I don’t really care about charging I just want to pump out a lot of Damage and kill monsters as a fighter type with being a caster. The mage in the group goes on and on about how you don’t do any damage unless you’re a caster.

[Eldan]

In that case, be a Frenzied Berserker, grab a two-handed weapon and get power attack. That's already pretty good, right there. Shock Trooper, Spirit Lion and so on are just icing.

[faceroll]

In that case, be a Frenzied Berserker, grab a two-handed weapon and get power attack. That's already pretty good, right there. Shock Trooper, Spirit Lion and so on are just icing.

Shock Trooper is pretty necessary if you want to turn all that BAB into Power Attack.

[Firechanter]

Some melee builds do damage best expressed in scientific notation.

Haha, awesome. "I hit for 2,3*10^4 damage", hilarious. :smallcool:


i just want something that does rediculas damage without that much magic the DM limits it a lot. I will take all awesome charger classes of doom....

Actually, barring pure exploits like the d2 Crusader (infinite damage), all the tricks I know peak out around thousand-ish damage per charge. Which doesn't say much; there may very well be more tricks but seriously, what has more than 1000hp?

One "standard" build involves:
Race with Str bonus, the more the better.
Barbarian with ACF Spiritual Totem: Lion (in short "Spirit Lion") to give you Pounce.
Shock Trooper feat (convert Power Attack penalty to AC penalty)
Leap Attack feat (increase Power Attack damage multiplier by 1)
Valorous Weapon (from Unapproachable East)
Frenzied Berserker: provides huge (up to +10) Str bonus, and adds another multiplier on your Power Attack.

Optional: Battle Jump (Unapproachable East), but this is very situational, and can't be used while Flying. I advise against it.

Some also want to combine this with the Whirling Frenzy rage variant from UA, but the magic 8-ball says this can't be used in conjunction with Frenzy.

So with this build, you make a Full Attack on a charge, quadruple your Power Attack damage, take no attack penalty, and double the total damage output. That's easily enough to break the 1000-damage sound barrier.

Downsides:
- you are a ticking time-bomb. A Frenzied Berserker is extremely prone to attacking his allies, and the DM _will_ use this against you. Personally, I wouldn't want to play with a Frenzied Berserker in the party, or for that matter, with a player who seems to be okay with one-shotting his teammates for the sake of his optimized damage output.

- There are a dozen ways to foil a charge, and you are a one-trick pony.

Alternative way to build a solid charger:
All Charger builds pretty much revolve around Shock Trooper, Leap Attack and a Valorous weapon.
Combine that with a Warblade using some Tiger Claw maneuvers: one gives you Pounce (Pouncing Charge), another gives you one, later two extra attacks (Dancing and Raging Mongoose). You don't gain absurd Str bonuses, but you still do enough damage to one-shot a Great Wyrm, while not running the risk of turning on your party, AND you still have other tricks up your sleeve.

[faceroll]

I don’t really care about charging I just want to pump out a lot of Damage and kill monsters as a fighter type with being a caster. The mage in the group goes on and on about how you don’t do any damage unless you’re a caster.

Race goes a long way in improving a melee brute's capabilities.

Here's an ECL 4 build:
Half-minotaur (Dragon 313) Water Orc (Unearthed Arcana)
Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter1/LA+1

Use the whirling frenzy rage variant from Unearthed Arcana.

Feats:
Extra Rage (Complete Warrior, level 1)
Improved Trip (bonus, 2nd level of barbarian)
Reckless Rage (Races of Stone, 3rd level)
Knockdown (Complete Warrior, fighter bonus)

Half-minotaur makes you large, which gives you reach. Use a spiked chain. You won't be proficient, but you will have so much strength, it won't matter, and you can pick up proficiency at fighter 2, at ECL 5. This will give you 20 feet of reach. Enjoy. I recommend picking up power attack and cleave, maybe even great cleave, especially if the mage is fireballing.

If you want to get a lot of bonus fighter feats, the first 2 levels of psychic warrior, first 2 levels of fighter, and first two levels of feat rogue net you 2 bonus feats each. So at level 8, you've got 7 bonus fighter feats. You probably won't need that many, but it's nice to be getting a bonus feat every level so you can be tripping, cleaving, and power attacking with the best of them.

While raging, you will have 40 strength (18 base +4 orc +12 half-minotaur + 6 rage). This is awesome. You also get two attacks/round, and every time you hit someone, you get to try and trip them, and you will trip them, and after they fall down, you can hit them again.

[Acanous]

Grabbing Mounted Combat->Ride By Attack->Spirited Charge can work well for you, if you're mounted and or using a lance. If you're taking leadership at 6 for a mount-as-a-cohort you can REALLY rock the Spirited charge. Remember, Lances *Can* be used as a one handed weapon while mounted, they don't *Have* to be... Unless you go Two Weapon Fighting and wield two. Which stacks with Pounce. Which you technically can use while mounted. Pick up Riding boots from the MiC. It's a significant feat investment, but the double-attack-times-five damage will make your wizard friend cry.
Bonus: Your cohort can be a flying thing. Like a Pegasus. Lances have reach, so stay 5 feet in the air. Now Rough Terrain won't matter, only blocking objects.

And yes, go Lion Totem Barbarian. If you want to go Frenzied Berserker, I *Believe* there's a feat that allows you to treat yourself as mounted on a charge- Leap attack IIRC, but look it up to be sure.

in short; Feats: Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Two Weapon Fighting
Items: Riding Boots, Lance, Lance
Classes: Lion Totem Barbarian/Fighter/Frenzied Berserker. You can have the feats, items, and be charging for massive damage by level 6. Then go F. Berserker and laugh as you slaughter your party <,<

[Vengeful_bob]

so dont go frenzied beserker because you kill most of the party... accept the rogue and the smarter party members.

[Firechanter]

Of course, be prepared not to be allowed to take Half-Mino, it being only a Dragon Mag content and at LA+1 ridiculously cheap for what it does.

[Eldariel]

Frenzied Berserker is fine if you go through the trouble to pump your Will-save. You will want to be a Cleric of Pride too, so you won't fail the save on 1. Basically, you want to make DC 20 check on 2; so base +18 is what you should be aiming for.

Charging is fine as long as you can guarantee Charge-capability. The Psionic Feat is a waste; there's a skilltrick called "Twisted Charge" in Complete Scoundrel that does what you want. There are also some Maneuvers in Tome of Battle that really help charging; Bounding Assault comes to mind.

[mootoall]

Half Troll, or a template like Feral or Mineral Warrior is another thing that gives you good bang for your buck. And doesn't Feral give you pounce?

[Eldariel]

Half Troll, or a template like Feral or Mineral Warrior is another thing that gives you good bang for your buck. And doesn't Feral give you pounce?

Only if you have enough racial HD, which is best avoided. Besides, it's real cheap to pick up from Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian anyways.

[TroubleBrewing]

I always preferred Feral Half-Minotaur Spirit Lion Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/Bear Warrior 2/War Hulk 10.

Simple, disgusting destruction. You end up with a Strength score in the 50's, maybe 60's depending on equipment/initial scores.

[Eldariel]

I always preferred Feral Half-Minotaur Spirit Lion Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/Bear Warrior 2/War Hulk 10.

Simple, disgusting destruction. You end up with a Strength score in the 50's, maybe 60's depending on equipment/initial scores.

You will, however, only have 1 iterative so in spite of your amazing attack damage you'll fall quite far behind someone with BAB 16+ and massive attack bonuses.

[Tenebris]

Maybe try Crusader/Cavalier :
Power Attack + Leading the Charge stance + Battle Leader's Charge strike

It's like (1d8 + 10 + Str + Power Attack + 1/IL) x5 damage with the Unstopable charge (x3 normally). Assume it a certain 250 damage without any magic item at lvl 20.

Don't forget the Cavlary Charger feat, mostly for the Fell Trample. Note that your mount also benefits from Leading the Charge.

[gallagher]

you know, due to the fact that you are charging, and therefor are already pouring out a lot of damage, you have a lot of room to just have fun with whatever weapon you feel like, and have several options for your prestige classes to better customize your character, and make him less boring than just "i charge"

here is a character that i am working on for my campaign.

A Neanderthal Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter2/Fist of the Forest 3/Frostrager 5/ Frenzied Berserker 8

This guy is Angry. Probably because he is cold and practically naked. this anger caused most people to not want to be around him, which probably made him even more angry. but man is he tough.


Due to his anger, let us assume he is always, always in a trance, raging and frenzying (because really, thats all we want to see).

Ability Scores (32 pb): 18/14/16/8/8/8
After adjustment for Race, HD, et al. 50/22/32/12/14/14
Items for Ability Scored: +5 Str from Levels, Manual (Str) +5, Manual (Con) +4, Belt of Magnificence (+6), +14 Str from Rage+Frenzy, +4 Dex from Trance, +4 Con from Rage, Racial Adjustments (+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int)

AC: 30 (+11 Con, +3 (Lvl 5 Monk), +6 Dex, +6 Natural, -2 from Rage, -4 from Frenzy)
Touch: 20 FF: 30

Saves: 37/17/13

Items For AC/ Saves: Monk's Belt (re-slotted to bracers), +5 Cloak of Resistance

ATTACKS: 2d10+22+1d6 (Cold) for Unarmed Strikes (1d8 base, 9 effective levels of Monk, 2 category increases from FotF), 1d12+12+1d6 (cold) For Snap Kick, 1d6+22+1d6(Cold) for Bite

Regular Attack: 36/36/36 for 2 UUs's and a Snap Kick

Full Attack: 6 Regular UUS's at 36/36/36/31/26/21, a Snap Kick at 36 and a Bite at 36

Special Attack: Rend for 2d8+32+1d6(cold)
Important Note: does Rending, Bite, and Snap Kick all count as unarmed strikes? my numbers here represent if they do count as unarmed strikes.

Feats:
Flaw: Improved Unarmed Strike
Flaw: Power Attack
Lvl1: Frozen Berserker
Lvl 3: Great Fortitude
Fighter1: Superior Unarmed Strike
Fighter 2: Cleave
Lvl 6: Snap Kick
Lvl 9: Destructive Rage
Lvl 12: Intimidating Rage
Lvl 15: Extra Rage
Lvl 18: Roundabout Kick

Money Spent so far: 200000 gp for +6 Belt of Magnificence, 247000 gp for Tomes, 19500 gp fpr Monk's Bracers, 25000gp for Cloak of Resistance
Money that is yet to be spent: 288,500 gp

[Keld Denar]

Dragonborn Water Orc Barbarian1/Ranger2/Barbarian+1/Fighter2/FrenziedZerker10/FullBAB4

1st Battle Jump (Spirit Lion ACF)
2ndB Track (Favored Enemy: Arcanists)
3rdB Power Attack
3rd Destructive Rage
5thB Cleave
6thB Improved Bull Rush
6th Intimidating Rage
9th Shocktrooper
12th Leap Attack
15th Favored Power Attack
18th Reckless Charge

Weapon = +5 (GMW) Valorous Collision Berzerking Viscious Magebane Bane (Evil Outsiders) Bane (Chaotic Outsiders) Keen Falcion
2d6 +16 + 1d8 + 8d6

Str = 18 base + 4 orc + 6 belt + 5 tome + 5 levels +2 size +10 frenzy +4 rage = 54 (+22)

Against a Chaotic Evil Outsider with SLAs
Damage:
Power attack component:
Supreme PA 4x
Leap Attack 3x
Favored Power Attack 1.5x
= 6.5:1, so PA for 20 gives 130 damage

Static Component + base:
2d6 (avg 7) +16 + 130 + 33 = 186

Multipliers:
Battle Jump x2
Reckless Charge x2
Valorous x2
= x4 damage multiplier

Total damage per attack:
186 x 4 + 8d6 (average 28) + 1d8 (average 4.5)
= 776.5

On a crit, which threatens 15-20, damage would be 962.5.

Attacks with Haste, Whirling Frenzy, and Frenzy would be +54/+54/+54/+54/+49/+44/+39. Statistically, ~2 should be crits.

A Balor is AC 39 with Unholy Aura up. That means all attacks hit on a 2+.

That comes to 5517.125 average damage per charging full attack. Thats enough to kill that balor 19 times over with a couple of points left over.

Not bad. I'm pretty sure I got my Leap Attack and Favored Power Attack multipliers factored in right.

[Cog]

You will, however, only have 1 iterative so in spite of your amazing attack damage you'll fall quite far behind someone with BAB 16+ and massive attack bonuses.
I like Paladin into War Hulk for that reason. Use Turn Undead to fuel the Frenzied Hunt feat (Dragon 342) and get full BAB; unlike Divine Power, it's not a spell, so your lousy caster level won't hurt. You're fatigued afterward, for a much longer duration than a Barbarian, but paladins get Second Wind, which takes care of Fatigue as a standard action (or swift with Battle Blessing) if your Frenzied Hunt runs out early.

[faceroll]

You will, however, only have 1 iterative so in spite of your amazing attack damage you'll fall quite far behind someone with BAB 16+ and massive attack bonuses.

As a bear, wouldn't you get claw claw bite? And with Whirling Frenzy, you get another attack. So not all bad.

[Eldariel]

As a bear, wouldn't you get claw claw bite? And with Whirling Frenzy, you get another attack. So not all bad.

Ah, true, but Natural Weapons only get 1xPA so they aren't really optimal for charging.

[Lateral]

Frenzied Berzerkers can work really well if you take Steadfast Determination. You should already have an insane Fort save, which now becomes your Will save too. Oh, and you don't autofail on a natural 1.

[herrhauptmann]

Charging is a trap; don't do it. To many things interrupt straight lines. If you are really stuck on charging, you're going to want the psionic feat that let's you turn while charging and a way to fly.
Screw the feat, you can get it with a skill trick from Complete Scoundrel. Allows a single turn of up to 90 degrees.

Frenzied Berserker is fine if you go through the trouble to pump your Will-save. You will want to be a Cleric of Pride too, so you won't fail the save on 1. Basically, you want to make DC 20 check on 2; so base +18 is what you should be aiming for.

Great, you make that DC20 save to end your frenzy. Too bad teh save to avoid starting your frenzy is a lot higher. 10+damage dealt. How much damage might a trap do at level 12? At least 20 points right? That's a DC 30 save.

You will, however, only have 1 iterative so in spite of your amazing attack damage you'll fall quite far behind someone with BAB 16+ and massive attack bonuses.
What's it called, an ExpertiseSkillful weapon? Gives you an base attack bonus equal to a cleric with your HD, and proficiency with that one weapon.

You can combine the leap attacking build, with the mounted combat build if you play as a tauric shaped creature. So Centaurs, Tauric templates, Bariaurs, and others. Might be able to throw the half minotaur onto the Bariaur as well. manual of the planes version has no racial HD, and is medium sized.

edit:

Frenzied Berzerkers can work really well if you take Steadfast Determination. You should already have an insane Fort save, which now becomes your Will save too. Oh, and you don't autofail on a natural 1.

No, it just swaps out the stat modifier. Now you use your Con Mod to your will save, not your wis mod. Base save for your will is unaffected. PHB2 pg 83

[Draz74]

No optimized charger should go without the Bounding Assault maneuver (Level 4 Diamond Mind). It takes away all the disadvantages of charging: straight line, difficult terrain, at least 10 feet, and -2 AC.

The White Raven maneuvers that add damage to a charge don't hurt, either.


What's it called, an Expertise weapon? Gives you an base attack bonus equal to a cleric with your HD, and proficiency with that one weapon.

Skillful Weapon. Complete Arcane, +2.

[Aemoh87]

I thought I saw a dragonborn shock trooper once that would just drop onto people 5 ft. and did massive damage. Maybe that would be better for this guy. If they are talking up casters so much in his party they are obviously playing at a decent level so it would prolly work.


Grabbing Mounted Combat->Ride By Attack->Spirited Charge can work well for you, if you're mounted and or using a lance. If you're taking leadership at 6 for a mount-as-a-cohort you can REALLY rock the Spirited charge. Remember, Lances *Can* be used as a one handed weapon while mounted, they don't *Have* to be... Unless you go Two Weapon Fighting and wield two. Which stacks with Pounce. Which you technically can use while mounted. Pick up Riding boots from the MiC. It's a significant feat investment, but the double-attack-times-five damage will make your wizard friend cry.
Bonus: Your cohort can be a flying thing. Like a Pegasus. Lances have reach, so stay 5 feet in the air. Now Rough Terrain won't matter, only blocking objects.

And yes, go Lion Totem Barbarian. If you want to go Frenzied Berserker, I *Believe* there's a feat that allows you to treat yourself as mounted on a charge- Leap attack IIRC, but look it up to be sure.

in short; Feats: Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Two Weapon Fighting
Items: Riding Boots, Lance, Lance
Classes: Lion Totem Barbarian/Fighter/Frenzied Berserker. You can have the feats, items, and be charging for massive damage by level 6. Then go F. Berserker and laugh as you slaughter your party <,<

Also this may be a bad idea. Don't laugh while you slaughter your party... get laughed at while you slaughter your mount.

[herrhauptmann]

Grabbing Mounted Combat->Ride By Attack->Spirited Charge can work well for you, if you're mounted and or using a lance. If you're taking leadership at 6 for a mount-as-a-cohort you can REALLY rock the Spirited charge. Remember, Lances *Can* be used as a one handed weapon while mounted, they don't *Have* to be... Unless you go Two Weapon Fighting and wield two. Which stacks with Pounce. Which you technically can use while mounted. Pick up Riding boots from the MiC. It's a significant feat investment, but the double-attack-times-five damage will make your wizard friend cry.
Bonus: Your cohort can be a flying thing. Like a Pegasus. Lances have reach, so stay 5 feet in the air. Now Rough Terrain won't matter, only blocking objects.

And yes, go Lion Totem Barbarian. If you want to go Frenzied Berserker, I *Believe* there's a feat that allows you to treat yourself as mounted on a charge- Leap attack IIRC, but look it up to be sure.

in short; Feats: Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Two Weapon Fighting
Items: Riding Boots, Lance, Lance
Classes: Lion Totem Barbarian/Fighter/Frenzied Berserker. You can have the feats, items, and be charging for massive damage by level 6. Then go F. Berserker and laugh as you slaughter your party <,<
Leap attack says nothing about being mounted on a charge. It's a feat intended for non mounted warriors. Ongoing debate over whether you can use leap attack while mounted, with such arguments as "Leaping off your mount mid charge to get both modifiers."
I don't think it should work, one or the other. But you can skip the whole issue by being a tauric creature. The MM1 Inevitable, and the centaur entries in Races of Faerun support that move.
But it suddenly becomes so feat heavy, it ends up impossible without getting a lot of bonus feats, like being a fighter in the pbp Tower of Deadly Evil.

[Endarire]

Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon).

I feel slow that no one else mentioned it!

[Eldariel]

Great, you make that DC20 save to end your frenzy. Too bad teh save to avoid starting your frenzy is a lot higher. 10+damage dealt. How much damage might a trap do at level 12? At least 20 points right? That's a DC 30 save.

Meh, it's not all that bad. Walking into traps should be a rather rare occurrence (since that's what you have Rogues for amirite?) and you can still end the Frenzy after that easily enough. Though yeah, it's of course vexing. There are, however, ways to get around that; Calm Emotions is duration Concentration for example so you could keep that on and just stop concentrating when in combat.


What's it called, an ExpertiseSkillful weapon? Gives you an base attack bonus equal to a cleric with your HD, and proficiency with that one weapon.

Yeah, it's ok (quite good actually), but still misses on an iterative. The Paladin-route is better though more feat-heavy.

[herrhauptmann]

Meh, it's not all that bad. Walking into traps should be a rather rare occurrence (since that's what you have Rogues for amirite?) and you can still end the Frenzy after that easily enough. Though yeah, it's of course vexing. There are, however, ways to get around that; Calm Emotions is duration Concentration for example so you could keep that on and just stop concentrating when in combat.


Didn't realize calm emotions was a duration spell... That actually helps a lot. What's that feat that allows concentrating as a free/swift action even while you take other actions?

I know the rogue SHOULD be doing his job with traps, but not all rogues, or their characters, do.
More good news, just realized that I don't think the FB specifies WHEN you make your save. So even if you fail the save vs damage taken, you should still pass the save to exit the frenzy. I'd always thought it was at the end of a turn. So you'd fail your save, party rolls initiative to scatter, and you pound on anyone who rolls worse than you.
On the downside, with the save at the start of the turn, the only issue becomes burning up all your frenzies as a result of a measly trapped chest.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

You can't handle the truth. You will find it on m