What stops a charge?

[faceroll]

In my experience, charging isn't the end-all tactic for melee, but that's because a great number of things interrupt charges- allies, spell effects, rubble, tables, chairs, dancing bears....

But are we just playing with house rules? How much of this stuff can you charge through? Does Leap Attack let you ignore some of that stuff? Does a simple jump check?

[Firechanter]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10475251&postcount=71

[Gwendol]

Stand still works well (as previously noted). Add reach weapon and/or greatreach bracers, etc, for larger area of effect. Thicket of blades stance. A few levels of knight to make it even harder to maneuver through the area you threaten.
Or you can trip. That works well with hold the line.

[faceroll]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10475251&postcount=71

I'm thinking more passive, environmental effects.

[Sacrieur]

A giant wall of clubs. Because with a Wish spell you can make infinite of them.

[Gwendol]

Stuff like obscuring mist will be very effective: you need to have line of sight and "line of effect" (=clear path) to target to be allowed to charge.

[Aspenor]

Steadfast Boots + reach weapon + large size.

[Canarr]

Caltrops? Okay, not a big chance, but still...

Or, if you're a bit more flexible with regards to the books used, there's a feat in Kenzer & Co.'s Players Guide to the Sovereign Lands: Movement Check.

No prerequisites; when making a successful AoO against an enemy running or charging through your threatened area, the opponent is stopped in the threatened square in addition to the normal damage dealt.

[Telonius]

One of these (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/bcx/Misspelled006.gif) will reliably stop a charge.

:smallbiggrin:

[Curmudgeon]

Caltrops? Okay, not a big chance, but still...
Caltrops just aren't reliable. The standard spread (only 2 lbs. of them for 25 square feet of ground) isn't enough to make that square count as difficult terrain. So it's only when the caltrop attack is successful and the charger's movement is hindered that it can stop a charge. With AB = 0, they'll only have a chance against low-DEX mooks without natural armor. And with them dealing just 1 point of damage, any DR at all makes caltrops completely useless.

[Cog]

A charging or running creature must immediately stop if it steps on a caltrop.
There is no requirement that the caltrop deal damage; only that it must hit. The attack bonus is still a big problem at higher levels, though.

The Earth Devotion feat uses the caltrop mechanic to much better effect when you reach 10th level; immediate action, multiple squares, and with a better attack bonus too.

[Curmudgeon]

There is no requirement that the caltrop deal damage; only that it must hit.

Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Being forced to stop immediately looks to me to be a special effect that accompanies the attack. After all, being on the receiving end of an attack doesn't normally cause you to stop when you're running or charging; that's a special effect of a caltrop attack. So any damage reduction should keep caltrops from being effective.

[Zanticor]

I have a halfling paladin outrider cavalier who charges quite nicely. Even trough allies and difficult terrain. This has made my DM pull his hair on several occasions and let him comeup with retaliatory tactics like having low level wizards on hand who ready a cone of fatigue! Nasty spell that shuts down any charger in the area. Luckily I now have full mounted attack so my dragon can fly up to them baddies and me doing a full attack afterwards.

[Cog]

Being forced to stop immediately looks to me to be a special effect that accompanies the attack. After all, being on the receiving end of an attack doesn't normally cause you to stop when you're running or charging; that's a special effect of a caltrop attack. So any damage reduction should keep caltrops from being effective.
That quote lists as many exceptions as it does examples, and provides little means for determining between them. Let's take a look at some of those examples:

Injury: This poison must be delivered through a wound. If a creature has sufficient damage reduction to avoid taking any damage from the attack, the poison does not affect it. Traps that cause damage from weapons, needles, and the like sometimes contain injury poisons.

Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw
"Injury type disease" is not defined anywhere that I saw, but diseases have the same categories as poisons and so presumably follow the same rules.

As for caltrops:
If the caltrops succeed on the attack, the creature has stepped on one... A charging or running creature must immediately stop if it steps on a caltrop.
A single condition is given for what triggers the stop: stepping on a caltrop. A single condition is given for determining if a caltrop has been stepped on: a successful attack roll. The description of damage reduction is too vague to overcome so straightforward a condition, particularly when the examples given themselves provide such a clear difference.

[Curmudgeon]

A single condition is given for what triggers the stop: stepping on a caltrop. A single condition is given for determining if a caltrop has been stepped on: a successful attack roll. The description of damage reduction is too vague to overcome so straightforward a condition

Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack That single effect that results from the caltrop's attack is special in nature, because normally attacks suffered while running or charging do not force a stop. That's definitely in the "special effects that accompany the attack" category.

We're only disputing the "most" qualifier here (your "too vague" reference). Since the description of caltrops doesn't call out an exception with respect to DR, and most special effects are negated, I'll follow the most likely consequence of the rules and let damage reduction work as specified to negate the effect.

[Jack Zander]

I'm inclined to agree with cog, becuase specific trumps general and the description of caltrops is pretty specific.

[person29]

That single effect that results from the caltrop's attack is special in nature, because normally attacks suffered while running or charging do not force a stop. That's definitely in the "special effects that accompany the attack" category.

We're only disputing the "most" qualifier here (your "too vague" reference). Since the description of caltrops doesn't call out an exception with respect to DR, and most special effects are negated, I'll follow the most likely consequence of the rules and let damage reduction work as specified to negate the effect.

I think it would depend on the damage reduction

A barbarians inherent DR might stop it, but would a suit of armor say adamantine breastplate?

[Cog]

The writers felt it worthwhile to include examples to help distinguish between the cases when DR affects the special attack and when it doesn't, and the details of those examples are fully consistent with the DR description, to such an extent that you don't need the DR description to know they'd fail. Why should those be ignored?

The caltrops themselves do make a distinction between effects of being stepped on and the effects of being damaged. For the latter: "The caltrop deals 1 point of damage, and the creature’s speed is reduced by one-half because its foot is wounded." This demonstrates the distinction made in the DR description perfectly - one ability is dependent on damage, the other on a hit. A creature with DR would indeed not take the movement speed penalty.

The caltrop entry specifically states which of its effects are dependent on what conditions. They are a specific exception to the general rules stated in the DR entry. If the phrasing were instead something like, "A charging or running creature must immediately stop if it is affected by a caltrop," the distinction would be unclear, and we would turn to the DR description. That's not the case.

Edit:

A barbarians inherent DR might stop it, but would a suit of armor say adamantine breastplate?

Armor made from adamantine grants its wearer damage reduction...
Presumably adamantine armor comes with adamantine inserts for your magic boots (that is to say, yes, it would stop the speed penalty).

[Telonius]

The caltrop's attack does seem to be kind of special.

Caltrop attack ignores:
Armor
Natural Armor
Deflection bonuses

As opposed to Touch attack (which DR can't stop), which ignores:
Armor
Natural Armor
Shield bonuses

If the attack succeeds, a character has stepped on a caltrop. It's perfectly clear to me that a creature with DR/(anything but a caltrop) is going to ignore both the 1 point of damage and the reduction to half speed. That is, he's stepped on the caltrop, but the DR negated the damage, so his foot isn't injured, so speed is unaffected.

As for needing to stop ... I think it does depend on your interpretation of "most effects" in the Damage Reduction section. He's clearly stepped on the caltrop, which is the trigger for the "must stop" effect. Unfortunately there's no descriptive text as for why the character must stop. If it were clearly stated that it's because the character is upset that there's now a metal spike in his foot, it'd be clear that DR would negate that effect as well. (I personally can't think of any other reason that he'd have to stop, so I'd rule that DR would negate that effect as well).

[The Cat Goddess]

Since no one has said it yet...

Lack of good credit will stop a charge.

Sufficient amounts of insulation will stop a charge, too.

:smallbiggrin:

[Cog]

(I personally can't think of any other reason that he'd have to stop, so I'd rule that DR would negate that effect as well).
Standing on caltrops sounds like poor footing to me. Basically, caltrops are weak terrain modification - they're difficult terrain that you can ignore so long as your AC is high enough.

[Tokuhara]

I once ran a one-shot with powergamers, where they had one small group of enemies, in this case, a pair of Driders with class levels and 4 Monsterous Spiders. Now normally, the charger should be able to wipe the field, but I had the area change, raising walls randomly, changing elevation, ect. The charger tried to do his thing, when the wall rose, blocking his charge. He slammed into the wall for greater hilarity

[faceroll]

Can difficult terrain be ignored with jump checks?

[Cog]

Within reason. A jump check gets you to a certain height, and if that's enough to clear the specific terrain you're dealing with, then yes. However, a jump is no longer a straight line, and so might disqualify you for a charge depending on how strictly you read it. However, if you have Leap Attack, you can definitely combine a charge and a jump.

[Karoht]

The spell "Grease" can stop a charge, no idea if it's any better or worse than Caltrops, but it is an option.
Stonecall (Druid Spell) makes an area into some kind of harder terrain to move through if I'm not mistaken.

[Curmudgeon]

Caltrop attack ignores:
Armor
Natural Armor
Deflection bonuses
Natural armor's not on that list.
The caltrops make an attack roll (base attack bonus +0) against the creature. For this attack, the creature’s shield, armor, and deflection bonuses do not count.

[NNescio]

Blockade(CS), Level 1 spell, swift action casting, drops a 5 feet cube of wood in an adjacent square which lasts for 3 rounds.

[prufock]

Wings of Cover hasn't been mentioned yet. Granted, it won't save you when Pounce is included, but it will stop one attack.

[holywhippet]

Tanglefoot bag maybe? Providing it hits, even if the target saves they can only move at half speed.

Depending on how the DM rules things, arguably throwing something small and round like sling bullets might trip someone over like stepping on marbles.

[faceroll]

Huh, so it seems that most things stop a charge. Good to know, as charging has always been a rather subpar tactic in the games I've played in.

Can you charge through a square with an ally in it?

[Aspenor]

Can you charge through a square with an ally in it?
No, you may not.

[NNescio]

Huh, so it seems that most things stop a charge. Good to know, as charging has always been a rather subpar tactic in the games I've played in.

Can you charge through a square with an ally in it?

Explicitly no.


Movement During a Charge

You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

'though I think there's a feat somewhere that lets you do that.

[nedz]

For hilarity Regal Precession :smallcool:
3rd level spell from SpC. Its basically mass mount, and provided the horses can't run away you have plenty of worthless targets in the way.

Any kind of summoning spell will work really. As will most walls/clouds/etc. obviously.

[true_shinken]

As opposed to Touch attack (which DR can't stop)
Wait, what?!

[Cog]

Wait, what?!
"Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction)"

...Hunh. this makes Wraithstrike even more powerful, doesn't it? Aren't there a couple of Maneuvers that are touch attacks too?

[true_shinken]

"Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction)"

...Hunh. this makes Wraithstrike even more powerful, doesn't it? Aren't there a couple of Maneuvers that are touch attacks too?

Well, this was written before Wraithstrike existed. Rules Compendium has an updated ruling:

Damage reduction doesn’t reduce the damage from energy attacks, spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

[Cog]

Well, this was written before Wraithstrike existed. Rules Compendium has an updated ruling:
And by not mentioning touch attacks in either direction, it does nothing to override the existing statement.

[Canarr]

Note that the existing statement says, "does not negate touch attacks"; it does NOT say, "does not negate the damage from touch attacks". Of course it does not negate touch attacks; it doesn't negate regular attacks, either.

Note what the entry DOES say:


A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks.

Just because an attack with a weapon - or an Unarmed Strike - is suddenly a touch attack due to Wraithstrike should make no difference to DR. To me, the touch attack comment refers to spells that require such, say Shocking Grasp or an Inflict spell.

[JohnDaBarr]

one question, what if someone, lets say with a halberd, ready a action against a charge and gets charged, wouldn't that stop the charge and deal x2 dmg

[Canarr]

Deal double damage, yes. Stop the charge, no. At least, not without some extra ability.

[Telonius]

Natural armor's not on that list.

Whoops, correct - 'swhat I get for flipping back and forth between three screens too quickly ...



Deal double damage, yes. Stop the charge, no. At least, not without some extra ability.

Or dealing enough damage to kill the charger. :smallbiggrin:

[Canarr]

Or dealing enough damage to kill the charger. :smallbiggrin:

I'll file that away under "extra ability"... :smallamused:

[Necroticplague]

Tanglefoot bag maybe? Providing it hits, even if the target saves they can only move at half speed.

Depending on how the DM rules things, arguably throwing something small and round like sling bullets might trip someone over like stepping on marbles.

Or you can use actual marbles (i think they were in dungeonscape).

[faceroll]

Or dealing enough damage to kill the charger. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, the party fighter was using a halberd set against a charge from a raging lizardman barbarian boss, rolled a natural 20. Fight ended quickly and spectacularly. :smallsmile:

[true_shinken]

And by not mentioning touch attacks in either direction, it does nothing to override the existing statement.
That's not how Rules Compendium works.

[Cog]

When a preexisting core book or supplement differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence.
RC's damage reduction entry makes no mention of touch attacks. It also does not say that the list of things which DR doesn't apply to is exhaustive. Therefore, there is no contradiction. With no contradiction, the latter entry does not take precedence in this case.

That is exactly how the Rules Compendium works.

[Jack Zander]

one question, what if someone, lets say with a halberd, ready a action against a charge and gets charged, wouldn't that stop the charge and deal x2 dmg

I think I understand what you are getting at. Let's change the example to a long-spear and ask it again. I still think the answer is no though.

[true_shinken]

RC's damage reduction entry makes no mention of touch attacks. It also does not say that the list of things which DR doesn't apply to is exhaustive. Therefore, there is no contradiction. With no contradiction, the latter entry does not take precedence in this case.

That is exactly how the Rules Compendium works.

You're grasping at straws. I'll leave you to your opinions.

[Tokuhara]

This would stop a charge!

a 60' tall, 200' wide 80' thick wall of dead monk threads

[Cog]

I think I understand what you are getting at. Let's change the example to a long-spear and ask it again. I still think the answer is no though.
Nothing in the charge action says you're stopped by receiving damage. Nothing in the ready action or in the double-damage ability says it stops a charge.

You're grasping at straws.
Not really. I'd be tempted to rule this the other way if it came up in a game, depending on the circumstances. That doesn't change the RAW of it.