Language Help

[IcarusWings]

I've been taking German classes for quite a while now, I'm doing a GCSE in them (British qualification for those not native to the Blessed Isle) and I'm doing pretty well, but there's always room to improve.
So, the request? I was just wondering if there were any native Germans/other-german-speaking-countries or fluent speakers of German, who wouldn't mind occasionally having a casual chat in German over Skype, PM, MSN, or anything along those lines, just so I can pick up miscellaneous vocab and fluency through osmosis (and of course, the occasional correction).

If anyone wouldn't mind doing that then it would be great, as it would help me in the course and in life in general.

:smallsmile:

[rakkoon]

You don't want to learn German from me but listening to music has helped my vocabulary. I love In Extremo, Saltatio Mortis, Rammstein and Subway to Sally personally. It's fun first guessing what they are talking about and then looking it up. Especially Rammstein have a few fun times playing with words which have a double meaning.

[Mauve Shirt]

I'm an advanced German student, wouldn't mind skyping. ID is in my profile.
I agree with rakkoon's suggestion. Die Toten Hosen and Die Aerzte have taught me a lot of vocabulary.

[Sunfall]

Native Speaker here. Alas, I don't have a chat client that doesn't wreck my PC, but if you'd like to practice longer texts, you could PM me :smallwink:

I agree with the other posters: music is a good way to practice. However, watch out for groups like Rammstein, Subway to Sally and In Extremo - while their language ist great, their way of pronounciation is a bit... antiquated. (We don't roll our Rs that much anymore :smalltongue:).

What has also helped me learning to fluidly speak foreign languages are movies and audio books. Do you have DVDs with German audio tracks? In terms of osmosis, it's the next best thing to a live conversation.

[rakkoon]

Yes another drawback from my list is that there are about seventy songs about fire and the sun and not one about leek or potatoes. Keeps me in the right mood though. Also I used to read He-man booklets in German because I though it just fit so well :smallsmile: (German is a fabulous language for strong and mighty characters to me)

[Yora]

Unfortunately, german literature is easer outdated German, or utterly depressing. While I learned english mostly from reading english novels, I don't think there's any german literature I could recommend. :smallannoyed:

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh, and if there's a book you've read and reread and almost know by heart, get it in German. It's a lot of fun to read it and find new words and still understand exactly what's going on. I have a German copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone that I really enjoy.

[Yora]

What I can recommend is hunting down some DVDs of Loriot. That guy had a comedy show in the 60s and 70s that's all about weird conversations. Most of the humor comes from the fact that the caracters always maintain a perfectly articulated and well manered lanaguage in situations that become increasingly rediculous. It's a bit old by now but it's a perfect example of very good formal German. :smallbiggrin:
It's also one of the few german comedy shows that is not relying heavily on regional dialects.
[1] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1j6ZkMaiek&feature=fvst), [2] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayvXxADjACg), [3] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BXEG6AznuM)
There's also "Deutsch für Ausländer", which is lightly NSWF.

Lyrics by Die Ärzte are also usually very entertaining.

[IcarusWings]

You don't want to learn German from me but listening to music has helped my vocabulary. I love In Extremo, Saltatio Mortis, Rammstein and Subway to Sally personally. It's fun first guessing what they are talking about and then looking it up. Especially Rammstein have a few fun times playing with words which have a double meaning.

That sounds like a good plan, I'll bear it in mind.


I'm an advanced German student, wouldn't mind skyping. ID is in my profile.
I agree with rakkoon's suggestion. Die Toten Hosen and Die Aerzte have taught me a lot of vocabulary.

Sounds good, I may add you on skype as soon as I have enough free time to actually have a conversation.


Native Speaker here. Alas, I don't have a chat client that doesn't wreck my PC, but if you'd like to practice longer texts, you could PM me :smallwink:

Thanks

May well do so for mock writing assessments or such things for checking over, as an actual conversation would fill up a PM Boz like no man's business.


I agree with the other posters: music is a good way to practice. However, watch out for groups like Rammstein, Subway to Sally and In Extremo - while their language ist great, their way of pronounciation is a bit... antiquated. (We don't roll our Rs that much anymore :smalltongue:).

What has also helped me learning to fluidly speak foreign languages are movies and audio books. Do you have DVDs with German audio tracks? In terms of osmosis, it's the next best thing to a live conversation.

I hadn't thought of that actually. Should I have subtitles on or not? Having it on would help me learn the vocab but I might get distracted.


Oh, and if there's a book you've read and reread and almost know by heart, get it in German. It's a lot of fun to read it and find new words and still understand exactly what's going on. I have a German copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone that I really enjoy.

That's something I may well bear in mind for the future (not in the position to buy loads of books at the moment), so thanks. :smallsmile:

[Sunfall]

@Icarus Wings:
By all means, do that! And as for the subtitles: If you have difficulty understanding people at first, put them on - but in German also. You will learn quite a bit about collocation and idioms that way, because you see the dialogs in writing.

+++

And now for something slightly different:

Aww, come on now, Yora, there's plenty of good contemporary German literature out there - especially fantasy!

I for one adore Walter Moers with his Zamonia series (German: Zamonien-Romane). He's brilliant, just loves to play with language (which might make him suited only for advanced students, because now and then he just makes up words). There's one novel where he invents this whole history of literature for his world by using poets and authors whose names are just anagrams of real writers - brilliant! I'd strongly recommend Rumo oder die Wunder im Dunkeln and Die Stadt der Träumenden Bücher, they're the best of the bunch (and you don't have to read all of them because the continuitiy between them is... vague at best).

Other than that, I like Kai Meyer - but his old books are better than the current ones IMHO. Der Rattenzauber is a very intense and dark rendering of the old faerie tale of the Pied Piper. Hmmm, Cornelia Funke might be a good read - if you like your narrative simple. The Inkworld trilogy is quite a nice read (Tintenherz, Tintenblut, Tintentod, respectively). And I just love Der Herr der Diebe. That book just breathes Venice.

Hmmm, who else comes to mind? Ah yes, leaving fantasy territory somewhat, there is Frank Schätzing. Brilliant, brilliant German author, just loves his research and likes to show his work. That works particularly well in his magnum opus Der Schwarm, as most of his protagonists are scientists. It's a bit of a science fiction thriller, and you'll learn a lot about the deep sea. In German. :smallbiggrin:

I also have a very interesting book about the history of witch hunting. It's very entertainingly written, a bit like Bill Bryson in German. I've forgotten the title right now, but I'll have it tomorrow.

[Yora]

Oh yes. Walter Moers I can fully recommend. He's quite amazing.

[Timeras]

Oh, and if there's a book you've read and reread and almost know by heart, get it in German. It's a lot of fun to read it and find new words and still understand exactly what's going on. I have a German copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone that I really enjoy.

Reading german books or german translations of english books is a good way to learn. But you should be carefull if you know the english version. Sometimes the translation differs from the original and you have to wonder what the translators were thinking (or if they were thinking at all).

If you would like to read some original german novels, I recommend Markus Heitz. I like his work in Shadowrun and his generic fantasy novels are supposed to be good as well, but I never got to read any of those.

[Adumbration]

Walter Moers thirded, though I've only read them translated.

[Keld Denar]

When I lived in Germany, my parents sent me a copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. I read it in english, because it was some of the first english literature I got after about 3-4 months of total immersion (I was an exchange student). Later, I bought the book for my host brother, in german. After he had read it, I went back and read it in german. It was really interesting, and really helped me get a better grasp since a lot of writing tends to be in past tense, which you don't use a whole lot in conversation.

What area do you live in? If its a decently large city, there are often german speaking clubs in or around large cities and universities. Do a search in your area for Stammtisch, and you might find some folks. Generally, they meet in a coffee shop or resturaunt or other public location and hang out, chat, play games, and enjoy food.

I've participated in them all across America, but I'm sure you'll find something in the UK as well.

[IcarusWings]

When I lived in Germany, my parents sent me a copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. I read it in english, because it was some of the first english literature I got after about 3-4 months of total immersion (I was an exchange student). Later, I bought the book for my host brother, in german. After he had read it, I went back and read it in german. It was really interesting, and really helped me get a better grasp since a lot of writing tends to be in past tense, which you don't use a whole lot in conversation.

What area do you live in? If its a decently large city, there are often german speaking clubs in or around large cities and universities. Do a search in your area for Stammtisch, and you might find some folks. Generally, they meet in a coffee shop or resturaunt or other public location and hang out, chat, play games, and enjoy food.

I've participated in them all across America, but I'm sure you'll find something in the UK as well.

Unfortunately I live in quite a small town, but I'll do a search anyway :smallsmile:

[rakkoon]

watch out for groups like Rammstein, Subway to Sally and In Extremo - while their language ist great, their way of pronounciation is a bit... antiquated. (We don't roll our Rs that much anymore :smalltongue:).

That's a discussion I once had with somebody. The rolling R is typical for eastern German dialects then?

I once tried reading the Hobbit in French. I put the book away after 5 days. I read 10 times faster in English and the snail pace was putting me off. That's why smaller books work better in my world, and songs are short stories :smallsmile:

[Eldan]

I think it just sounds better in the kind of music they make. Rammstein uses a lot of poetic language anyway.

[Yora]

That's a discussion I once had with somebody. The rolling R is typical for eastern German dialects then?
I don't think it's typical for any native german speakers.
Maybe in some places in the very south-west, but I don't think so.

However, the sound is not very hard to make for Germans and my Japanese teacher said Germans have very few problems with the Japanese R/L.
What we do have is something very similar to a true rolling R but not at the tip of the tongue but rather in the back of the throat, very similar to Arabic.
Here's an example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=946O9OfOKxc#t=3m25s) (coincidentally by Rammstein) where you have a natural sounding R in german. He does the rolling at times in that song, but mostly it's just regular Rs.

English doesn't really have a true R. You could replace all the Rs in english with Ws and it would barely sound different. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Hmm. In the South West, you'd start running into Alemanni dialects, like us Swiss people. And at least half of Switzerland completely swallows any and all Rs.

[Yora]

Maybe the Bavarians? I've been living near Nürnberg for 5 years, but we have almost no Barvarians up here.

But R is a weird letter anyway. It's just popular consent that the R in different languages is the same letter. It's actually quite a wide range of sometimes drastically different sounds.
In Germany, we would write the japanese ら,　り,　る,　れ, and　ろ alwas as R, but many Japanese write it as L instead. For us, it's comon consent that the rolling R is an R. But the way you have to move your mouth to make a rolling R is very similar to the way you form an L, but nothing at all like the way you would form an R in English.

[Sunfall]

Hmmm, when I hear the way Rammstein pronounce their texts, I'm always reminded of a... more unsavory period in German history when it was the normal way to speak. You can see it in old films and, of course, documentaries. I can't think of a contemporary dialect that would sound like that. The eastern parts of Germany tend to swallow their Rs, so they sound more like vowels than consonants. Sorry, I can't describe it any other way, but they sound nothing like that old way of speaking.

Yora's example is quite good, they're holding back in that one :smallcool:. For an even more colloquial way of pronounciation, look here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mMnAUvK5ZI).

(BTW, I've found that the Japanese R/L sound is easier to pronouce when you push it more in the direction of a D sound...)

Now, as for the other book I mentioned above: it's In drei Teufels Namen by Dieter Breuers. Like I said, a bit like Bill Bryson, but in German. And I found another gem that's easy to read and very, very profound: Reise zwischen Nacht und Morgen by Rafik Schami. I love that book. It's kinda bittersweet, but a great read.

And how could I forget that there are older German writers with really good comtemporary language as well? Erich Kästner and Michael Ende are both brilliant. Kästner wrote simple, but straight to the point, and Ende loved playing with language at least as much as Moers does. With Kästner, you might find the things he wrote for adults more interesting. With Ende, everything is good.

@Adumbration: I'm curious. Does Walter Moers translate well? What kind of impression do his texts leave you with?

[Eldan]

I can't help but think that Moers would be a pain to translate. Between the literature in-jokes and the ubiquitous puns...

[Adumbration]

I can't help but think that Moers would be a pain to translate. Between the literature in-jokes and the ubiquitous puns...

Maybe it was missing in translation something, but I thought it was still very entertaining to read. Don't know, I can't read or speak German so I can't comment on the original.

[LCR]

Unfortunately, german literature is easer outdated German, or utterly depressing. While I learned english mostly from reading english novels, I don't think there's any german literature I could recommend. :smallannoyed:

Um, what?
Daniel Kehlmann (http://www.amazon.com/Die-Vermessung-Welt-Daniel-Kehlmann/dp/3499241005/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1302368055&sr=8-4) begs to differ.
So does Benjamin von Stuckrad-Barre. (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_27?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=benjamin+von+stuckrad-barre&x=0&y=0&sprefix=benjamin+von+stuckrad-barre)
Or Christian Kracht. (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_27?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=benjamin+von+stuckrad-barre&x=0&y=0&sprefix=benjamin+von+stuckrad-barre#/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Christian+Kracht&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3AChristian+Kracht)
Or John von Düffel. (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_27?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=benjamin+von+stuckrad-barre&x=0&y=0&sprefix=benjamin+von+stuckrad-barre#/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=John+von+Düffel&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3AJohn+von+Düffel)

None of them are outdated. Or depressing. Well, maybe depressing, but that really depends on the reader.

Also, what do you mean by outdated? Thomas Mann may be dead for 60 years, but his books are most certainly not outdated. Buddenbrooks still is THE family chronicle in literature and The Magic Mountain is a masterpiece about the philosophy of disease and diseased philosophy.
Franz Kafka is probably one of the most influential writers of the early 20th century, not only in the German-speaking world.

I'd also like to recommend Max Frisch. He wrote two of my favourite novels ever, Homo Faber and Stiller, Homo Faber exploring emotions and rationality, while Stiller plays with the question of identity, a common theme of post-modern literature. Or what about Dürrenmatt? Grass? Böll?
Germany had one of the most vibrant literary communities after the war. Really, I could probably go on about this for pages, but I guess if you ever want to talk about literature in German, drop me a PM and I'd be happy to talk to you about it all day.

[Yora]

There are certainly some interesting subjects, but everything older than 60 years would not be a good example to train your contemporary German.

I respect that you enjoy the writers you listed, but those of which I have heard of are pretty much exactly that kind of depressing literature I was thinking of.
Stuckrad-Barre, Frisch, Grass: Three very good examples of what I think is wrong with german literature.
But yeah, if people enjoy that. Feel free to do so.

[LCR]

Would you care to elaborate? I can't seem to find all that many similarities between Stuckrad-Barre, Frisch and Grass.
What's wrong with German literature? And what do you believe is done better elsewhere?

[Partysan]

Wow, Moers as translation? I might have to pick up one of these just to see how they did it. I utterly adore this man's books bu I can't imagine how they would translate his shenanigans. It would be like translating Pratchett (and his books are translated quite horribly).

And, native speaker and skype-user here.

I second rereading a known book in German. By the way, famously badly written books sometimes have translations that are actually better regarding language than the originals...

[Yora]

There are entire TV shows that are only good in the translation. :smallbiggrin:

[Mauve Shirt]

We spent 3 weeks on Kafka this semester. Allow me to sum up almost every Kafka story for you: It's the father's fault. :smalltongue:

[Yora]

Also: Kafka is completely insane.
And exactly what I mean by depressing. I think everything ends with "nobody loves you and you die!" And I think almost all german writers who wanted to become "respectable and famous writers" in the last 60 years wanted to hop up on that band wagon.

I might have been a bit unfair, and their are certainly some writers who write to entertain and because they have fun writing, who are also german citizens. But they are not what the important german literature critics would consider "literature". At best trivial-literature, but it's obvious how that term really means pseudo-literature.

Yes, there are certainly good writers who write very interesting and good books in german. But stay away from the "most important and famous writers of contemporary german literature". Those are the guys you have to read in school, that everyone in the room hates, except the teacher, and that have made millions of young germans believe that German classes and literature analysis is all one big hoax.
Oh how I hate them! :smallbiggrin:

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh how I hate them! :smallbiggrin:

For all that, you're going on my favorite playgrounders list. :smallbiggrin:

[SaintRidley]

If nobody minds my asking for a point of help regarding a German sentence, I have a question.

I'm using a little German for a poem I'm working on and I want to make sure I'm declining things correctly, particularly on the compound I'm using (also, checking that I'm using the correct words to form it will be helpful).

The sentence I'm trying to express, in English, would mean "We must punish the bad/rotten-spellers!"

So far, my internet connection and German dictionary have given me this (with the compound undeclined, as I'm not sure how to go about declining it properly into the plural accusative case from its base form):

Wir müssen den Schlecktschreiber bestrafen!

[LCR]

If nobody minds my asking for a point of help regarding a German sentence, I have a question.

I'm using a little German for a poem I'm working on and I want to make sure I'm declining things correctly, particularly on the compound I'm using (also, checking that I'm using the correct words to form it will be helpful).

The sentence I'm trying to express, in English, would mean "We must punish the bad/rotten-spellers!"

So far, my internet connection and German dictionary have given me this (with the compound undeclined, as I'm not sure how to go about declining it properly into the plural accusative case from its base form):

Wir müssen den Schlecktschreiber bestrafen!

Okay.
Well, it would be "Wir müssen den Schlechtschreiber bestrafen", but Schlechtschreiber isn't used in German. Of the top of my head, I don't think there is a noun that describes someone who can't spell, you usually use an adjective or conditional sentence, e.g. "Wir müssen den, der schlecht schreibt, bestrafen". Even then, it sounds incredibly clunky and would not be used like this. "Schlecht schreiben" conjures the image of someone writing badly (that is, not pretty), not someone, that can't spell.
I'd probably go with something like
"Schlechte Rechtschreibung/Ungenügende Orthographie muss bestraft werden!" (literally "Bad orthography/Insufficient orthography must be punished!")
Still, this is something you wouldn't normally say or write in German.
If you're going with poetic licence, then even "Wir müssen den Schlechtschreiber bestrafen" would be fine.

]


Also: Kafka is completely insane.
And exactly what I mean by depressing. I think everything ends with "nobody loves you and you die!" And I think almost all german writers who wanted to become "respectable and famous writers" in the last 60 years wanted to hop up on that band wagon.

I might have been a bit unfair, and their are certainly some writers who write to entertain and because they have fun writing, who are also german citizens. But they are not what the important german literature critics would consider "literature". At best trivial-literature, but it's obvious how that term really means pseudo-literature.

Yes, there are certainly good writers who write very interesting and good books in german. But stay away from the "most important and famous writers of contemporary german literature". Those are the guys you have to read in school, that everyone in the room hates, except the teacher, and that have made millions of young germans believe that German classes and literature analysis is all one big hoax.
Oh how I hate them! :smallbiggrin:

I think you just made an aneurysm pop in my poor German major brain.
But if you like to paint in broad, generalizing strokes, expect to be refuted.

Please, do not stay away from contemporary German literature (or German literature in general) because you find Franz Kafka depressing. Kafka is probably one of the most depressing (and depressed!) writers ever.
While he certainly was very influential, I find that he actually influenced post-modern, hyperrealistic American literature more than he influenced contemporary German literature.
So, forget about Kafka.
Instead, keep an open mind and try to shed the attitude that just because a book might have some artistic merit (and is taught in school), it is bad or depressing. This is most certainly not the case and in this thread, you'll find plenty of upbeat, positive German authors.

[Eldan]

Also: Kafka is completely insane.
And exactly what I mean by depressing. I think everything ends with "nobody loves you and you die!" And I think almost all german writers who wanted to become "respectable and famous writers" in the last 60 years wanted to hop up on that band wagon.

I might have been a bit unfair, and their are certainly some writers who write to entertain and because they have fun writing, who are also german citizens. But they are not what the important german literature critics would consider "literature". At best trivial-literature, but it's obvious how that term really means pseudo-literature.

Yes, there are certainly good writers who write very interesting and good books in german. But stay away from the "most important and famous writers of contemporary german literature". Those are the guys you have to read in school, that everyone in the room hates, except the teacher, and that have made millions of young germans believe that German classes and literature analysis is all one big hoax.
Oh how I hate them! :smallbiggrin:

Actually, according to our teacher:
"We hate them too. More than you could ever imagine. Why? WE had to study them for four years in university. At least. Nevertheless, I deeply, deeply apologize for making you read this."
Then he put on his sadistic grin and made us write essays on it.
I loved that teacher.

Edit: thinking back on it, from all the many I tried or was forced to try, the only German authors I think I like were Moers, Ende and a few pieces of Goethe and Schiller. But not much by the last two. Some of it was pretty horrible.

[Yora]

Wir müssen den Schlecktschreiber bestrafen!
Grammar seems alright. But Schlecktschreiber is not an actual german word. You mean Schlechtschreiber?

That also wouldn't be a word anyone actually uses, but in German we are making new words by combining existing words all the time. And it's even done gramatically correct, which schows quite some skill with the language, so I'd use it.

[Zefir]

Hey IcarusWings if you want I could help you as well. German is my motherspeech, but don't be afraid I'm not one of these 1+ guys.

The new word combination thing is very popular, befor giving something a new name use 2 old and Bingo you got a new name^^.

[Yora]

Like motherspeech. :smallbiggrin:

I don't think that word exist in English. :smallwink:

[Zefir]

Well then it is obviously I'm a real German.

The word I search is mother tongue. And I just see native means the same. I allways mistake this.

Edit: Did you have to rread Faust as well Yora?

[Yora]

Yes, but that was actually one of the quite good ones. Goethe is quite fun to read, since he doesn't take himself too seriously. His stories make sense even if you don't follow the social norms of his time. Lots of older german stories revolve around social status and reputation based on a system of norms we no longer consider valid. So many "tragic" characters appear as silly crybabies who put way to much weight on trivial things and we can't see how we're supposed to feel for them.
Goethes stories are also embeded in this system of social norms, but his characters are often the outcasts and misfits who can't play the role society demands of them. How someone strugles with this society that he does not accept, is something we can rely to as modern readers who also wouldn't want to follow those social rules.

The only good parts in Die Buddenbrooks are those of the daughter who is obsessed with maintaining her social status, because I think she's a parody on the tragic heroines from 19th century german literature. I think the whole book is about the old "patrician" class of that time becoming obsolete and this particular family not handling it very well. For most of the family members it's just depressing, but for Toni the only source of her missery is she herself. She has so many opportunities to find her own happiness in the changing world, but at the first sign that the real world is not like the fairy tale she pretends to live in, she always tears it down because she needs the drama.
In older stories, the tragic heroines were miserable because they were trapped within the norms of society and did not have an option. Toni does have the freedom to chose from a great number of options what she wants to make of her life, but she always rather choses missery than to accept something not quite so shining than she thinks she deserves because of her status. "Stupid ritch brat getting what she deserves for thinking herself so great" is something modern readers can rely to. :smallbiggrin:

[Mauve Shirt]

I've also found that I enjoy Goethe occasionally. I think by now there's a difference between contemporary literature and literature written in the early 20th century. I've read a few German books from the 00's, and they certainly aren't bad. Unless those aren't considered "literature." "Literature" stinks, with some exceptions. What you want to read are "books."
The combining words thing is part of what makes me like German so much. :smallbiggrin: It makes so much sense, until it makes very little sense. I won't be truly good at speaking it, though, until I memorize the gender of every single effing noun in the language. My memory's so atrocious it took me 5 years to remember that "buch" is neuter (slight exaggeration :smalltongue:). Question, native speakers, do I sound like an idiot if I drop adjective endings in my speech? Because they're my main source of frustration, along with the passive voice.

[SaintRidley]

Thanks for the help.

The idea for the poem came from me wondering what would happen if I unleashed my inner grammar nazi. And, well, shouting down poor spelling and grammar in German sounded both appealing and amusing for the purpose.

There's just something about the musicality of the German for the sentences I'm looking at that appeals.

[Zefir]

Well I had much luck, because I was one of the last class who only read in the last classes.
The bad thing with such old german literature is the spelling. Even for most german it is hard to understand. Also I hate most of the old once. For example we had to read Faust and I couldn't concentrate to read it. Then I tried to watch the film and I fall asleep after 10 minutes...

The one I enyoed was Kabale und Liebe by Schiller. The way he wrote it kept me awake even if 99% of the other Students fall asleep.

In privat I have read Markus Heitz Die Zwerge (The dwarfs). It is so wonderful pice of literature. Expect the fact that there are only a few good german fantasy writer he is one of the best.

[Yora]

Question, native speakers, do I sound like an idiot if I drop adjective endings in my speech? Because they're my main source of frustration, along with the passive voice.
You mean "die grün Wand" und "das laut Auto"? Yes, that sounds truly attrocious. :smallbiggrin:
Though not exactly like an idiot. Even when we fake idiot-speech or foreigner-speech, we still gat that part right. But when it's apparent that you're a foreigner, I don't think anyone would be bothered. It's purely cosmetic and does not include any trace of actual information. Everyone will understand it perfectly.

[Zefir]

People here would only have a smile. It's very commen for people who's mother toung isn't german.

[Mauve Shirt]

You mean "die grün Wand" und "das laut Auto"? Yes, that sounds truly attrocious. :smallbiggrin:
Ick, when you put it that way I can see you're right.

Though not exactly like an idiot. Even when we fake idiot-speech or foreigner-speech, we still gat that part right. But when it's apparent that you're a foreigner, I don't think anyone would be bothered. It's purely cosmetic and does not include any trace of actual information. Everyone will understand it perfectly.
Ok, practice time then. It's really not THAT hard. Some of them are "e", some of them are "en", it just comes down again to knowing the genders. :smallsigh: I need to get rid of some of my stuff, then I'll need to discuss fewer nouns. :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

I, for one, liked Faust. But then I had to read Die Leiden des jungen Werther and Goethe lost a lot of credit for me. Yes, he was young and depressed and yada-yada-yada.
That's no excuse. There will never be an excuse. There can be no excuse.

Of course, what I truly hate are those authors I imagine standing over a manuscript with a pen in their hand shouting "Bwahahahaaa! I have meaning, and morals and philosophy and I will use the most boring language possible to hammer them into your skull! This is TRUE LITERATURE! Bwahahahaaa!"

[Timeras]

Wir müssen den Schlecktschreiber bestrafen!

This is singular, but you seem to mean plural.
"We must punish the bad/rotten-spellers!"

So it would be "die Schlechtschreiber" (if you really wanted to use that word).

[Yora]

Ok, practice time then. It's really not THAT hard. Some of them are "e", some of them are "en", it just comes down again to knowing the genders. :smallsigh:
You don't only have to consider gender. Adjektives also change depending on the Fälle.
"Die grüne Wiese ist groß" but "Auf der grünen Wiese steht ein Pferd"

[Asta Kask]

Further proof that German isn't so much a language as a torture device. Why? We Swedes do just fine with two cases.

[LCR]

Actually, according to our teacher:
"We hate them too. More than you could ever imagine. Why? WE had to study them for four years in university. At least. Nevertheless, I deeply, deeply apologize for making you read this."
Then he put on his sadistic grin and made us write essays on it.
I loved that teacher.



This guy shouldn't be a teacher.

[Yora]

We also have only two, and today you can even get away with only three. But just look across the water to the fins and weep. :smallbiggrin:

[SaintRidley]

I like the four and a half cases Old English had, personally.

Instrumental survived distinctly in only a few cases with it being interchangeable with the Dative the rest of the time.

The history of grammatical case in English is weird. Especially the remnants of the Accusative.

[Yora]

Does modern english even have cases? :smallconfused:

A genitiv obviously, and therefore also a standard case. But else?

[SaintRidley]

Does modern english even have cases? :smallconfused:

A genitiv obviously, and therefore also a standard case. But else?

It's mostly in our pronouns these days.

We have a nominative (I, You, He/She/It, We, They, Who), Accusative/Dative (Me, You, Him/Her/It, Us, Them, Whom) and Genitive (My/Mine, Your(s), His/Her(s)/Its, Their(s), Whose).

Otherwise, case is pretty much dead in modern English. Outside the pronouns grammatical gender is pretty well dead too.

[Yora]

And even than its just male people, female, and everything else. With the exception of treating objects or animals as people.

[SaintRidley]

And even than its just male people, female, and everything else. With the exception of treating objects or animals as people.

Yep. After we got over speaking Anglo-Norman and reintroduced English we went with natural gender and just ditched grammatical gender. Why? Not sure.

I've read theories about the simplification of English that note the many invasions and influxes of non-native speakers speaking a simplified version of the language so as to communicate with the native speakers for various purposes (diplomacy, trade, etc.)

[Yora]

You, you pretty much had to come up with a super simple pidgin. Certainly beats grunting. :smallbiggrin:

[Mauve Shirt]

You don't only have to consider gender. Adjektives also change depending on the Fälle.
"Die grüne Wiese ist groß" but "Auf der grünen Wiese steht ein Pferd"

Yeah, that's another thing, but case changes aren't too hard. I'm actually pretty good at German grammar, I just don't have the best vocabulary.
Thank goodness I'm not learning Hungarian. I think it has 40-something cases.

Semi-related, Mark Twain's essay on German (http://www.kombu.de/twain-2.htm) is pretty funny.

[Yora]

"It's funny, because it's true."

However, native germans would never notice the frequency of Zug and Schlag. The concepts are so different that it wouldn't occur to us that there are multiple meanings when asked for the meaning og Zug or Schlag. We would think of one, and only to that one.

[Zefir]

Yeah, that's another thing, but case changes aren't too hard. I'm actually pretty good at German grammar, I just don't have the best vocabulary.
Thank goodness I'm not learning Hungarian. I think it has 40-something cases.

Semi-related, Mark Twain's essay on German (http://www.kombu.de/twain-2.htm) is pretty funny.

Be happy as far as I know in chinese or Japan each word has it's own writing and if you want to write them you can't just use 25 letters.

[Asta Kask]

According to my gaming books, the Japanese are unsatisfied with one 'alphabet' - they need three. Two syllabaries (i.e., every symbol is a syllable) and they borrowed the Chinese ideographs during the 8th century. Since the Chinese didn't ask nicely for them to be returned, the enmity between the two nations go back to at least that time. :smallbiggrin:

[Yora]

Katakana are indeed redundant, as they have exactly the same letters as hiragana, just written in a different way. But the sounds of the letters are 100% identical.
Kanji are a whole different thing. As people who have grown up with western languages, there's no real reason to use them if you can write a word perfectly well in just hiragana.

[Yora]

Anyone else here knowing Japanese?

What's the writing on the flag saying:
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8he1vTLrS1qdo15bo1_400.jpg
The two at the top are toki (time).

[Partysan]

I asked a friend and he said it means death/mortality.

[Eirala]

As people who have grown up with western languages, there's no real reason to use them if you can write a word perfectly well in just hiragana.

Well, acutally no. As someone who started learning Japanese not too long ago, i already see the advantages of Kanji.
The thing with Japanese is, you have very vew syllables, and this leads to very many words with similar or even the exact sounds / readings.
Kanji are a pain to learn, even if you see the beauty in them^^, and there are over 2100 of them waiting to be learned if you want to be able to read a newspaper, but they are the only way of writing, which doesn't lead to confusion.


Anyone else here knowing Japanese?

What's the writing on the flag saying:
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8he1vTLrS1qdo15bo1_400.jpg
The two at the top are toki (time).

The two at the top mean "time", yes, but i think you would read it "nichiji". Not 100% sure about that, had to look up in a dictionary^^
But 時 alone can be read as "toki". The meaning stays "time" though as far as i know.

The two at the bottom mean "Death" or "Mortality". Again, i'm not sure, i only know the Kanji 死 which means simply "Death" and found the other one in a dictionary.

EDIT: The reading for 死亡 would be "shibou"

What, or even if there is a meaning intented with these two words combined, i don't know. Japanese can be very vague at times^^

[Partysan]

Oh, there he is. Did you seriously make an account for that?
Well, welcome to the Playground - my favourite board!

[Eirala]

Yes i did create an account for this, and why not? :P

Thanks, until now this is the only thread i read. Perhaps i will look around a bit ;)

[Yora]

Shibosha is "a dead person".

But yeah, I don't think it actually is a sentence in japanese. Maybe the creator intended to get something like "time to die".

[Eirala]

"sha" can mean "person" if the Kanji 者 is used, so it would make sense if shibousha means "dead person".

The combination of the two words can mean anything you can think of.

[Yora]

I think that actually both kanji mean death. Not sure what's the difference between them.

[Eirala]

You're right, both mean Death.

Perhaps the combination of the two Kanji has kind of a special meaning of "Death"/"Mortality". Or it's just a more formal way of writing "Death".

From the examples i found with either of the two Kanji, one could guess "死" is used in more abstract contexts.
"亡" is used for deceased, for example.

However this is all just guessing^^