[PF] "Tanking" - How do I protect three characters with one? Bonus ToB question!

[Kestral]

I'm in a strange place in our Pathfinder game and I could use some advice.

We're playing a Pathfinderized version of World's Largest Dungeon with a party of four, two of which recently died and are remaking their characters, including me. Not counting my character we've got a Guide-variant Ranger specialized for archery, a Wizard/Cleric going for Mystic Theurge, and an Elemental bloodline Sorcerer. Up until now we had my recently-deceased Paladin to play tank alongside our recently-deceased rogue, and my first inclination was to roll up another defense-oriented melee. However, I'm starting to question whether "tank" is a valid concept for this group in a dungeon crawl.

Our experience with the dungeon so far suggests that "stand in a door while the archer and mages kill everything" may not be a situation to plan around. Thanks to random encounters, our most difficult fights have consistently occurred in corridors which are too wide for a single character to control now that Pathfinder has made Stand Still and Trip builds awful. Without the ability to block a hallway or defend characters backed into a corner, I'm not sure what the point in a defense-oriented character even is. The more I think about it, the more I wonder whether I should put together some kind of balls-out melee DPS build that tries to kill everything before it can drop a mage.

With all that in mind, my questions are:

1. Given the dungeon setting and our party makeup, is there a use for a tank that I'm overlooking?

2. Between the core Pathfinder materials and the DM-approved Tome of Battle, is there a viable way to play lockdown like you could in 3.5E or otherwise allow one character to defend three?

3. Any suggestions for amusing Pathfinder-compatible Tome of Battle builds, either for a tank or for sheer damage output?

[Cartigan]

If you can "lockdown" in 3.5, you can probably do it in Pathfinder just as easily.

[Kestral]

If you can "lockdown" in 3.5, you can probably do it in Pathfinder just as easily.

Sadly, no, you can't. Stand Still is terrible in Pathfinder. Trip builds now require a massive feat investment and the only core weapon they work with that has reach is the guisarme. The huge bank of feats from 3.5E that let you execute the more exotic lockdown builds are all gone. I wish it were as simple as "pick a 3.5 build and copy it," but it isn't.

[Gnaeus]

Not sure what level you are, but there is always natural spell Druid (Assuming that your "Pathfinderized WLD" doesn't bar it). At 6th level, you could become a large creature, along with a large ape or wolf, and you can summon tanks as needed. If you can't block a corridor with that, nothing short of a wall of stone will do it.

Pathfinder nerfed druid a bit, but it is still as strong as mystic theurge or ranger.

If your problem is that you can't match the CMD for monsters, I don't think ToB will help. It gives you alternate ways to trip, etc, but not really a different mechanic. Most of the lockdown maneuvers a ToB character gets are single target. I don't think ToB will fix this problem (although it is still awesome, with lots of options and durability.)

[cooperflood]

Yeah PF nerfed most (all) melee feat based options HARD. However if Tome Of Battle is legal, then it seems that Crusader is a perfect fit for what your looking to do. It has a number of "Attack Me" and Heal your allies type abilities. As a bonus you should still be able to do average to good damage at the same time.

If it were me I would just do a simple Ruby Knight Vindicator Build.

[Cartigan]

Yeah PF nerfed most (all) melee feat based options HARD. However if Tome Of Battle is legal, then it seems that Crusader is a perfect fit for what your looking to do. It has a number of "Attack Me" and Heal your allies type abilities. As a bonus you should still be able to do average to good damage at the same time.

If it were me I would just do a simple Ruby Knight Vindicator Build.

Outside Tome of Battle, there is no real way to force people to attack you in 3.5 anyway that I ever saw.

[Grommen]

Interesting posts everyone. I'm kinda confused by them however. For sake of understanding here. How if the PF system mess up tripping? You need Combat Expertise, then you can take Trip and Improved Trip. Far as reach weapons go, their are quite a few. Is it because the CMD is a lot harder to over come with the PF system?

Far as the 3.5 feats being allowed or not that is up to the DM and was up to the DM when you were playing 3.5. If the DM is allowing only PF stuff and the Tome of Battle so be it. Thems the brakes. PF didn't do it. The DM did. With a little tinkering the majority of 3.5 feats works just fine from all that I've seen.

Far as your build goes. In a dungeon corridor (tipical ones that I've seen) they are normally not over twenty feet across(most being 10 feet). So a weapon with reach should be able to threaten most of that area. With a Long Spear you should be able to control the front of a corridor no problem. If you take Combat Reflexes you'll get a few extra AoE's if someone trys to squirt by you, and with Trip and Imp Trip you should be able to knock most things down your level, less it's really big. In that case it can't get past you anyway.

Now if the party gets jumped from behind this presents a problem, cause all your squishies are back their. This is where the Archer in your party should at least have decent Armor and carry a buckler or some other type of shield and a melee weapon. He does not have to be great at it, but he is a fighter build (of some kind), has hit points, fair AC and might hit something every now and again. At least he will slow down attackers long enough for you to get around and take up your place. Then the archer backs out of combat picks up his bow and away you all go.

If your DM is simply zerg rushing you and everything runs past your tank to attack the squishes that is very unfair and unrealistic. You don't ever turn your back to an enemy cause you'll most likely end up dead. Most intelligent creatures know this and don't do it. (By intelligent I'm saying like anything other than an animal). And if that is happening it's not really your fault. Good news is you should be getting some cheap kills cause all the bad guys backs are to you. Their AC should be crap and you should be able to full attack and power attack away and kill them pretty quickly. If this be the case and the DM shows no signs of playing nice, I would go with a pure high damage type of character.

[Gnaeus]

Outside Tome of Battle, there is no real way to force people to attack you in 3.5 anyway that I ever saw.

Knight's challenge and Goad. But I agree with you, there is no reliable or good way to do it (other than by being so badass that they know they must kill you or die.)



If your DM is simply zerg rushing you and everything runs past your tank to attack the squishes that is very unfair and unrealistic. You don't ever turn your back to an enemy cause you'll most likely end up dead. Most intelligent creatures know this and don't do it. (By intelligent I'm saying like anything other than an animal). And if that is happening it's not really your fault. Good news is you should be getting some cheap kills cause all the bad guys backs are to you. Their AC should be crap and you should be able to full attack and power attack away and kill them pretty quickly. If this be the case and the DM shows no signs of playing nice, I would go with a pure high damage type of character.

If you are in a world with wizards, however, this suddenly becomes realistic. Most intelligent creatures (anything that knows what a caster is) knows that the caster has to be a priority target.

D&D doesn't have facing. All it has is flanking, which is good for a +2 at most.

[Cartigan]

Interesting posts everyone. I'm kinda confused by them however. For sake of understanding here. How if the PF system mess up tripping? You need Combat Expertise, then you can take Trip and Improved Trip. Far as reach weapons go, their are quite a few. Is it because the CMD is a lot harder to over come with the PF system?
You have to take Greater Trip as well.

But there are some other things in Pathfinder you can take like Combat Patrol and Stand Still. But you are going to be burning all your extra system feats like hell and you'd have to be a Fighter still.


Knight's challenge and Goad. But I agree with you, there is no reliable or good way to do it (other than by being so badass that they know they must kill you or die.)
Knight's Challenge was too weak to be useful.

[Gnaeus]

Knight's Challenge was too weak to be useful.

Correct. It remains a real way to make things attack you. Just not a reliable or effective one. Sometimes it works fine (occasionally).

[peacenlove]

Knight's challenge and Goad. But I agree with you, there is no reliable or good way to do it (other than by being so badass that they know they must kill you or die.)


Dark speech also forces any non-evil creature of 11th level and greater (lesser creatures are feared or suffer other effects, and evil ones respect you) that hears you to attack you in preference of other targets, no save. Feat from book of vile darkness.

EDIT: Bah didn't see the save, gnaeus below has it correct.

[Endarire]

In Pathfinder, a Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterOrcs) Crusader with a polearm, Combat Reflexes, and Thicket of Blades makes you plenty tanky.

Splash Cleric and Ruby Knight Vindicator to taste.

[Gnaeus]

Dark speech also forces any non-evil creature of 11th level and greater (lesser creatures are feared or suffer other effects, and evil ones respect you) that hears you to attack you in preference of other targets, no save. Feat from book of vile darkness.

Erm, not quite.
It is listeners within 30 feet, not any non-evil creature that hears you.
You need base will +5, 15 int, and 15 cha to get the feat, so not usually of benefit to most tanks.
You take 1d4 cha damage whenever you use it, so unless you have really high cha or a way to prevent ability damage you won't be using it for long.
It only makes them attack you on their next action.
And there IS a save. Will, DC 10+1/2 speaker level + cha mod.

[Kestral]

Gnaeus and cooperflood seem to get what I'm talking about.

A summoner druid is an interesting idea and probably the most effective at physically preventing the hordes of the WLD from overrunning us, but I do have some concerns about how often that could force us to rest: we're masochists and playing with strict supply tracking, and we're barely finding enough to keep ourselves going as it is. Still, there's always filet of goblin. Ruby Knight Vindicator is an interesting choice. Any recommendations for must-have maneuvers?

Grommen, the issue with Trip exactly as you've said. Pathfinder Trips are not only harder to pull off than 3.5E Trips unless you invest so heavily in them that it's barely worth it, but they also have less of an effect: they don't cause damage until Greater Trip at level 6. Oh, and the only weapon you can trip at range with is a guisarme. Good luck finding one of those lying around.

As for getting zerged, it's a fact of life. Our DM will definitely have NPCs charging our casters because if they didn't the game would have no challenge whatsoever. The damage output on this party is obscene, and I'm perfectly fine with having to work to maintain it. Also: geek the mage first.

Cartigan, Stand Still is not a viable option in Pathfinder unless you have several people doing it. It only affects adjacent targets rather than ones within your threatened area, so unless you've got the area walled off with Stand Still-ing melees who can threaten every square between you and the back lines, it's trivial to get around and take no more than a single attack of opportunity. As a side effect of this and the Trip changes, Combat Patrol is of questionable utility.

[Eloel]

Get your friendly Wizard to cast Enlarge Person on you. Grab any tripping weapon. Sit in the way.

[Mojo_Rat]

I think you are approaching this wrong. Trips are /easy/ to pull off.


I can make a Tenth level fighter with +28 or so to Trip possibly higher, who also has great AC and hits hard.

The thing you need to understand is that Weapons with Bonuses that are Trip or Disarm or whatever that are used as part of the Combat Maneuver Convey those bonuses to the CM

So i missed the lvl for this at the OP but i'll use lvl 10 for my example. Heirloom Weapon Trait. for the Example we'll say 18 str. +2 sword


Exotic Weapon Temple Sword
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Greater Trip
weapon focus Temple Sword
greater weapon focus Temple sword.

throw in weapon Training swords and if your Using It the . duelist gloves i think they are called.

this should put you at +28-30 Trip i think.

You can Do this with a polearm too But when i thought up the idea origonally there was other stuff in mind.

If it doesnt Fly you should Trip just about Anything you fight unless its Massive.

[Metahuman1]

Outside Tome of Battle, there is no real way to force people to attack you in 3.5 anyway that I ever saw.

PHB II Knights Challenge ability.

[Cartigan]

PHB II Knights Challenge ability.

I've played a Knight before, I don't think this is working like you guys think it is working.

[Sacrieur]

PHB II Knights Challenge ability.

All ready been discussed. This ability is terribly ineffective. They should have made the DC 10 + Intimidation modifier.

[Curious]

You may be interested in the polearm fighter archetype from the advanced players guide, which is available on the online SRD. It has some interesting options.

[Endarire]

Best Maneuvers:
In general, use maneuvers without saves. Extra damage helps, but is not your only concern. Devoted Spirit is generally the best discipline for you and Stone Dragon the worst. (Stone Dragon maneuvers must be used [ i]on the ground[/i], which sucks when you want to fly.)

-The healing ones (Crusader's Strike, Revitalizing Strike, Rallying Strike, and Strike of Righteous Vitality)

-WHITE RAVEN TACTICS! Give a partymate an extra turn? Dude!

-Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, and Shadow Blink. You have an extraordinary [Teleport] maneuver to move 50'! Use with Thicket of Blades to appear in AoO position.

-The Mountain Hammer line ignores DR and hardness. Carve your way through walls! Foehammer ignores DR, too!

Best Stances
-Martial Spirit. Heal an ally within 10' for 2 HP per hit? Sweet!

-Thicket of Blades. Get Combat Reflexes and a polearm (I like lances and glaives) and tell your foes, "Come get some!" Works best with expansion, enlarge person or the biggest size you can muster.

Build
Decide if you want Cleric-heavy or Crusader-heavy. Maneuvers rule the early game, but your Mystic Theurge's casting will suck. Sorry.

Clerical casting is meant to undo the very painful diseases, poisons, and other "uh oh" maladies. It also helps with buffs like freedom of movement, death ward, bless, and prayer. Finally, you get reactive heals like cure light wounds which is handy if you can't smack the ground until your group is fully healed.

Starting at level 1, I'd go Human OR Dragonborn Water Orc Crusader1/Cleric4/Ruby Knight VindicatorX.

Take Combat Reflexes, Extra Granted Maneuver, Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric, and probably Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades to get that ASAP.

Remember, your non-initiator levels count half toward your initiator level. Thus, a Crusader1/Cleric4 has an initiator level of 3 and can learn level 2 stances and maneuvers. Use this to your advantage: Delay the last 4 or 5 levels of RKV after you've taken all the Cleric you want.

[Talbot]

As far as a tripping TOB tank goes, you may be better off with Warblade, who gets his Int to some tripping related shenanigans, and bonus feats that are at least somewhat useful. Plus, his various "hurricane" maneuvers are nice for hitting every enemy who gangs up on you.

Actually, a Crusader 7/Warblade 7/Master of Nine 5/ Whatever 1 could be great (if a little feat-intensive), with access to Iron Heart, Devoted Spirit, and (eventually) Setting Sun, and an IL of 8 for both Warblade and Crusader. You'd have to plan out your maneuver/stance/feat selection fairly carefully, but you'd be a very, very good tank. You lose a little HP with the Mo9 levels, but it's a max of, what, 20 total over five levels? The healing you can snag from the increased IL and maneuvers known it grants you pretty much balances that out, and helps out your weaker saves, too.

[faceroll]

Knockdown (complete warrior) lets you make a trip attempt AFTER you do damage (10 or more). So you can walk anything that comes your way, then try and put it on the floor.

Knockback (races of stone) lets you bullrush enemies if you are also power attacking them, which pushes them backwards and you stay where you are.

Setting Sun maneuvers let you really hurl creatures around.

[Jack Zander]

I once played a viable tank using a single class and a single level 2 spell. Shield other. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOther.htm)

I played a dwarven cleric with 18 starting constitution (after racial bonuses, but please, feel free to boost this more if you can spare), all the mass healing he could muster, endurance and diehard for emergencies, improved toughness, and silence/dispel magic for those pesky AoE blaster casters. Boost your AC and self protections if you can (I recommend using a tower shield) to make yourself the least desirable target. You'll be taking enough damage already from the shield other spells, you really don't want to be a traditional tank. Just heal up your party members after they take their half damages instead. Maybe splash a level or few of dragon shaman in there for fast healing and damage reduction auras. You could even take extend spell and stop at cleric level 6 or so, using 12 hour duration shield other spells in your third level spell slots, leaving your second level spell slots open for silence, the best counterspell spell IMO. Hell, do whatever you want with it really, just keep in mind that you need to boost your survivability and healing to the extreme, and shield other needs to last almost the entire day.