Deific Stats

[Welknair]

In my campaign my players are actively making a deity out of a sentient ring they found. All involved believe this to be awesome. As such, I need to make a full set of stats for a new Divine Rank 0 deity. I of course have the Deities and Demigods book for help. However, I've ran into a problem that had troubled me when I originally obtained a copy of Deities and Demigods: The ability scores of the gods. How the heck did they get those? The gods for the most part have no base races, and thus no base ability score modifiers. They all have a number of Outsider HD, but this doesn't help much. The ability scores are consistently 24+, yet there doesn't seem to be much of a correlation between Divine Rank and these numbers (Hercules has a Str of 55?!). So the conclusion that I've come to is that these numbers were picked pretty randomly, save for situations in which certain numbers make sense (Aprhodite having a higher than the deific average for Cha, previously mentioned example of Hercules, etc.). It bothers me that they included stats and definitions for creating gods but managed to leave out how to arrive at the ability scores seen. I'm usually decent at spotting patterns, but for the life of me, I can't find one here. So, is there a correlation between Divine Rank and the ability scores of the gods, is there any method whatsoever to consistently arrive at them, or is there no underlying system and the numbers were picked more or less at random?

[Roukon]

What I've done (with varying levels of success) is 8d6, reroll 1s and take away lowest dice. It got most scores in the mid to high 20s. Then, I chose one stat and put all the bumps that a character gets every 4 levels. Seemed to work all right, and if you notice, most of the gods in Deities and Demigods have most of their scores in the 20s except for one that is in the 40s or 50s.

Later Days,

Roukon

[Welknair]

What I've done (with varying levels of success) is 8d6, reroll 1s and take away lowest dice. It got most scores in the mid to high 20s. Then, I chose one stat and put all the bumps that a character gets every 4 levels. Seemed to work all right, and if you notice, most of the gods in Deities and Demigods have most of their scores in the 20s except for one that is in the 40s or 50s.

Later Days,

Roukon

Hmm. That seems quite workable.

My other problem: It states that Quasi-deities (Divine Rank 0) cannot grant spells. And yet in the PHB it is said that Clerics don't even need a god in order to prepare their spells - the power comes from their devotion, not the god. As such, why can't you have a cleric devoted to a Quasi-Deity as much as you would have one devoted to a standard deity? If the cleric in question honestly worshiped and revered this Divine Rank 0 entity, I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to draw on the same power as if they honestly worshiped and revered proper table etiquette.

[TroubleBrewing]

Your game, your rules. If you've got a cleric that wants to worship toast,give him the Fire and Hunger domains and call it a day.

[Peregrine]

If the cleric in question honestly worshiped and revered this Divine Rank 0 entity, I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to draw on the same power as if they honestly worshiped and revered proper table etiquette.

That's just it: they're drawing on the power of their own belief, rather than being granted spells by the quasi-deity. This has implications for whether the deity can revoke spellcasting powers and so on.

At least, that's my reading of the situation.

[Welknair]

Your game, your rules. If you've got a cleric that wants to worship toast,give him the Fire and Hunger domains and call it a day.

I'm planning on making a homebrew based around going from Divine Rank - to Divine Rank 0, and then from 0 to 1. I don't think that it'd be an instantaneous process and thus would need some sort of progression. If I am to brew and post something, I'd much prefer it if said brewing was accurate to the source.


That's just it: they're drawing on the power of their own belief, rather than being granted spells by the quasi-deity. This has implications for whether the deity can revoke spellcasting powers and so on.

At least, that's my reading of the situation.

You got a point there... And then, if the power really doesn't come from the gods, what in the world are the Ur-Priests doing?

[olentu]

Hmm. That seems quite workable.

My other problem: It states that Quasi-deities (Divine Rank 0) cannot grant spells. And yet in the PHB it is said that Clerics don't even need a god in order to prepare their spells - the power comes from their devotion, not the god. As such, why can't you have a cleric devoted to a Quasi-Deity as much as you would have one devoted to a standard deity? If the cleric in question honestly worshiped and revered this Divine Rank 0 entity, I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to draw on the same power as if they honestly worshiped and revered proper table etiquette.

I think the distinction would come more into play when not granting spells.

[Welknair]

Another matter: Why doesn't Hercules have Outsider HD? He was once a human, but he's a god now. I always saw the Outsider HD as being the inherent divinity in the deities. I would have thought that Hercules would have gotten at least 10 Outsider HD from ascending.

Finished product of homebrew here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10711859#post10711859). Thanks for the help.

[Urpriest]

Another matter: Why doesn't Hercules have Outsider HD? He was once a human, but he's a god now. I always saw the Outsider HD as being the inherent divinity in the deities. I would have thought that Hercules would have gotten at least 10 Outsider HD from ascending.

Finished product of homebrew here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10711859#post10711859). Thanks for the help.

Pretty sure Imhotep also doesn't have Outsider HD. Born (or very old) deities have Outsider HD, ascended ones don't.

[Ravens_cry]

You got a point there... And then, if the power really doesn't come from the gods, what in the world are the Ur-Priests doing?
In cases where the Clerics worship something with Divine Rank 0, or less, it doesn't come from the god. In the case of beings with higher Divine Rank, it does. Either that or the UrPriests fervent disbelief is granting them spells and they are just fooling themselves.

[Alleran]

I'm planning on making a homebrew based around going from Divine Rank - to Divine Rank 0, and then from 0 to 1. I don't think that it'd be an instantaneous process and thus would need some sort of progression. If I am to brew and post something, I'd much prefer it if said brewing was accurate to the source.
You don't technically need to make homebrew for it, since you can just transform into a true dragon (either with PaO or through Savage Species, though the latter might depending on reading the Wish ritual get you the RHD as well with the right roll for gaining abilities), then set about getting the requirements for the Dragon Ascendant class (Draconomicon). That leaves you at DvR 0 when Dragon Ascendant is done with. Then you plane shift to the Outlands, or an Outer Plane, or somewhere to that effect with belief as the central component. By getting enough people to believe in your divinity, you make it happen and ascend. Welcome to godhood.

Or you could create some Ice Assassins, I suppose.

[LOTRfan]

Pretty sure Imhotep also doesn't have Outsider HD. Born (or very old) deities have Outsider HD, ascended ones don't.

That is right. The SRD makes this clear; Gods that were always gods have 20 Outsider HD. Those who ascend to godhood (like the aforementioned Imhotep, but also Vecna and Saint Cuthbert) gain the powers, but not the "racial HD."

[Welknair]

That is right. The SRD makes this clear; Gods that were always gods have 20 Outsider HD. Those who ascend to godhood (like the aforementioned Imhotep, but also Vecna and Saint Cuthbert) gain the powers, but not the "racial HD."

Huh. So if you were to get the masses to believe in and worship an imaginary deity to the point it became real (This works in my game world, as well as some friends'), then it would have "Always been a god" as it didn't actually exist before. And yet if you were to do the same to an existing person, they wouldn't get the HD because they already existed? :smallconfused: That's doesn't make much sense and seems a bit unfair. That type of thing is going to variable based upon the gameworld and whether the DM says that the HD are being counted as "Racial" or as "Cuz you're a god".

[LOTRfan]

Huh. So if you were to get the masses to believe in and worship an imaginary deity to the point it became real (This works in my game world, as well as some friends'), then it would have "Always been a god" as it didn't actually exist before. And yet if you were to do the same to an existing person, they wouldn't get the HD because they already existed? :smallconfused: That's doesn't make much sense and seems a bit unfair. That type of thing is going to variable based upon the gameworld and whether the DM says that the HD are being counted as "Racial" or as "Cuz you're a god".

I only said "racial" because that's the only way I can describe them. I'm sure Deities and Demigods describes it bette, but I am away from my books.

[hamishspence]

I thought St Cuthbert had the 20 Outsider Hit Dice (or, at least, something that was normally not present on ascended deities- I can vaguely remember being puzzled at that).

But I might be remembering wrongly.

Tiamat and Bahamut don't- all their hit dice are Dragon hit dice.

[Kahlendrrari]

st. cuthbert does have the outsider dice, i think it's just a bad case of wizard's bad editing or trying to re-write history, or not following their own rules that they just built a book around, or all 3

[Feytalist]

It might be because he ascended some time ago. Not quite sure about the canon timeline though.