Wait, What? The Witch is INT based?

[Leeham]

Why, oh WHY is the the PF Witch class Intelligence based? I would have said Charisma, maybe even Wisdom. Wisdom would have been cool! But no, I'm now a cauldron carrying wizard. Any thoughts?

[TroubleBrewing]

That would seem to be the case.

[arguskos]

...did anyone else first think of the Witch variant class from the DMG? I was all "wait a moment, the Witch is totally Cha-based. Also, someone else remembered that class exists" then I read the OP and was very sad that it wasn't about what I thought it was.

[Leeham]

Sorry to have dissapointed you all :smalltongue:

[Lord Loss]

I thought he meant the variant class as well. The PF witch makes no sense to me either. I,d make it Wis if it were up to me.

[WildPyre]

I'm currently playing a PF witch... I thought Int was an odd pick too. I figured it would be more charisma based and closer to sorcerer than wizard.

[Doc Roc]

While it may not make a lot of sense, int is a much stronger stat than Cha. Wisdom would have been fairly boss. I'd just consider myself fortunate, and imagine that the witch is some sort of lore-wielding alchemical bad-ass.

[subject42]

My group actually unanimously house-ruled it to WIS after getting the APG. Partly we wanted a WIS-based arcane caster, and partly it just fit the fluff better.

[Threeshades]

Does anyone actually have a REASON for thinking Int doesn't fit the witch?


She does learn spells in a similar way that a wizard does after all. To me it seems to make sense since also classic fantasy witches the ones that I can think of learn to use magic through experiment and study.

[Aemoh87]

Also witches operate on KNOWLEDGE of alchemy and curses in most fantasy. Not force of will or faith.

[Rodimal]

Also witches operate on KNOWLEDGE of alchemy and curses in most fantasy. Not force of will or faith.

that and for the most part they are always extremely ugly. e.g. low cha. They usually use illusion to hide this or polymorph.


Out

[KillianHawkeye]

that and for the most part they are always extremely ugly. e.g. low cha. They usually use illusion to hide this or polymorph.


Charisma doesn't equate solely to appearance. There are plenty of ugly monsters with huge Charisma scores.

[LOTRfan]

Charisma doesn't equate solely to appearance. There are plenty of ugly monsters with huge Charisma scores.

Mindflayers, for instance.

[Sacrieur]

that and for the most part they are always extremely ugly. e.g. low cha. They usually use illusion to hide this or polymorph.


Out

Witches are only ugly if they're evil. Haven't you ever seen wicked?

---

Charisma isn't just appearance, it's well... Charisma, likableness. You could be cutest girl in the world and be a complete jerk. This is why I like how WoD does it with their stats:

http://www.brown.edu/Research/dichtung-digital/2007/Stewart%26Parsler/Figure3.jpg

[Arutema]

It leaves Pathfinder with 2 full casters for each mental ability score.

Int for Wizard and Witch
Wis for Cleric and Druid
Cha for Sorcerer and Oracle

[Sinfonian]

Also witches operate on KNOWLEDGE of alchemy and curses in most fantasy. Not force of will or faith.
Tell that to Granny Weatherwax.

[Set]

It leaves Pathfinder with 2 full casters for each mental ability score.

Int for Wizard and Witch
Wis for Cleric and Druid
Cha for Sorcerer and Oracle

I think that's pretty much the answer.

I would have preferred Wisdom or Charisma, instead, as well.

[MarkusWolfe]

that and for the most part they are always extremely ugly. e.g. low cha.

I'm going to have to call BS on that one.

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/085/e/0/a_witch_for_hamret_by_bluealaris-d3ci4gv.jpghttp://fc06.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/337/3/8/Witch_Pirate_by_thundercake.jpghttp://fc01.deviantart.net/fs16/f/2007/207/f/4/Venom_Witch_by_Wenchworks.jpghttp://th06.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/075/6/2/a_witch_by_doberlady-d3brxst.jpg

Go ahead. Just TRY to tell me that you wouldn't hit that like the fist of an angry god.

[Haarkla]

Does anyone actually have a REASON for thinking Int doesn't fit the witch?

She does learn spells in a similar way that a wizard does after all. To me it seems to make sense since also classic fantasy witches the ones that I can think of learn to use magic through experiment and study.
I agree. I would have said Wisdom (I am a Pratchett fan, especially his witch books), but intelligence is a good choice too.

To base the witch on Charisma would go against the archetype and all the source material.


MarkusWolfe, I call BS on you. Please learn the meaning of "for the most part".

[stainboy]

I like my casters int-based, personally. An int-based witch will come out better at social skills than a cha-based witch in the long run.

Anyway, never trust a non-core prepared caster with a custom spell list. Maybe Paizo plans to support Witch/Inquisitor/Oracle/Magus with new spells in future books, but it sucks that you can't draw from other splats in a 3.P game.

[NNescio]

I'm going to have to call BS on that one.

images

Go ahead. Just TRY to tell me that you wouldn't hit that like the fist of an angry god.

Also...

http://ompldr.org/vODR3Yw/a68e6aba1ed90ef403fd58791d2e7dab.jpg
Touhou hijack!

But yeah, the witch in the above image is Int-based in her spellcasting, despite being a memetic Casanova.

[Innis Cabal]

I'm going to have to call BS on that one.

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/085/e/0/a_witch_for_hamret_by_bluealaris-d3ci4gv.jpghttp://fc06.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/337/3/8/Witch_Pirate_by_thundercake.jpghttp://fc01.deviantart.net/fs16/f/2007/207/f/4/Venom_Witch_by_Wenchworks.jpghttp://th06.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/075/6/2/a_witch_by_doberlady-d3brxst.jpg

Go ahead. Just TRY to tell me that you wouldn't hit that like the fist of an angry god.

Nope, nothing special or entrancing about those pictures at all. Even if I were into the ladies.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Charisma doesn't equate solely to appearance. There are plenty of ugly monsters with huge Charisma scores.

Hey! They could be sexy as hell to other mindflayers you know.

[KillianHawkeye]

Hey! They could be sexy as hell to other mindflayers you know.

They could, but that's irrelevant because, as I already said, Charisma != physical appearance.

Anyway, if something is sexy or not is a matter of personal taste and not an inherent quality of their ability scores. Charisma is more a measure of personality. It can include appearance, but mostly it's how the creature uses it's appearance. A pretty person who doesn't know how to channel their beauty into social advantage won't be very Charismatic, for example, while an ugly beast who relies on its appearance to instill fear and intimidation will have a high Charisma score.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

They could, but that's irrelevant because, as I already said, Charisma != physical appearance.

Anyway, if something is sexy or not is a matter of personal taste and not an inherent quality of their ability scores. Charisma is more a measure of personality. It can include appearance, but mostly it's how the creature uses it's appearance. A pretty person who doesn't know how to channel their beauty into social advantage won't be very Charismatic, for example, while an ugly beast who relies on its appearance to instill fear and intimidation will have a high Charisma score.

Damn you and your logic..! all Im saying, is that mindflayers are sexy. :smallmad:

[Sacrieur]

Also...

http://ompldr.org/vODR3Yw/a68e6aba1ed90ef403fd58791d2e7dab.jpg
Touhou hijack!

But yeah, the witch in the above image is Int-based in her spellcasting, despite being a memetic Casanova.

Would hit.

[Crossblade]

Being Int based also boosts Spellcraft Checks, which help with learning spells from other Familiars... assuming you play with that opportunity.

[WildPyre]

Also witches operate on KNOWLEDGE of alchemy and curses in most fantasy. Not force of will or faith.

Actually in Pathfinder they get their spells from their familiars rather than learning them from a book and must also select a patron.

So... yeah the PF fluff lends itself to wisdom or charisma better IMHO.


By forging strange bonds with unnameable beings, witches gain the service of a mystical adviser, a familiar to both serve her and reveal to her secrets unknown to most mortals.


At 1st level, when a witch gains her familiar, she must also select a patron. This patron is a vague and mysterious force, granting the witch power for reasons that she might not entirely understand.

The fluff more closely resembles a sorcerer or a cleric... considering many of the witch's hex powers are her giving people the Stink Eye™, it feels more charisma based to me personally.

[Ravens_cry]

I like the witch flavour and abilities, a lot of lock down and support, but the whole familiar mechanic just feels clumsy and is a major Achilles heel for the class., in my opinion.

[stainboy]

I agree there. The more afraid you are of your familiar dying, the less of a role it takes in the game. If I was playing a witch I'd write the familiar on my character sheet and then never mention it again, just like wizards do.

The witch folklore usually holds that the witch's familiar isn't a literal animal, it's an imp or something that takes the shape of an animal. It'd be nice to have witch familiars be some kind of outsider that's able to respawn on its home plane if it dies, then Plane Shift back to you the next morning. (Probably not an actual imp, at least not at 1st level. Imps are surprisingly awesome.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

On the topic of Charisma vs Beauty, I direct you to the Vorkosigan series by Lois McMaster Bujold. The main character is a distinctly hunchbacked dwarf. I defy you to claim he has a low Charisma score!

On the topic of the casting stat, it would depend largely on what you mean by 'witch'.

If you mean a person who works through competent use of alchemy and applies curses through study of the rules and laws of magic to produce effects, then it would definitely be Int based.

If, on the other hand, a 'witch' was one who made deals with spirits and other beings, generally either bargaining or tricking them, combined with an innate 'feel' for magic, and applying curses by simply willing it to be so... then it would definitely be Charisma based.

However, if a 'witch' was defined using the Spanish Inquisition era definition of one who gains supernatural abilities through worship of the devil himself, then it should be a Wisdom based casting, just like any other 'priest class'.

It really depends on how the class is set up, really.

[true_shinken]

It really depends on how the class is set up, really.
Reading the class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch) would help, then.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Reading the class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch) would help, then.

Having read the class, I agree it should be Wisdom based...

All the language, including 'communing with' are identical to Clerics and Druids for their spells.

[Sarco_Phage]

Does anyone actually have a REASON for thinking Int doesn't fit the witch?


She does learn spells in a similar way that a wizard does after all. To me it seems to make sense since also classic fantasy witches the ones that I can think of learn to use magic through experiment and study.

They want pretty, charismatic, witches, that's all. :smallamused:

However, the way they learn spells would appear to be more WIS based than anything else.

If you really want them to fit the classic witch mold, then you're just asking for something with similar fluff to the warlock (gets powers from an Outsider or Fey, etc. etc.)

[mikau013]

I really find it a shame that they didn't do anything useful with the familiar. Right now the class just feels like slightly altered wizard to me. Hoped for something a little more unique, but guess seeing the rest of what Paizo did with pathfinder I couldn't expect much.

[NNescio]

Agree that the fluff fits a Wis-based caster better.

[Ravens_cry]

On the other hand, Int synergises with their potion crafting as well as their knowledge skills. It works for me. I played my witch as an inquisitive, rather absent minded young hag who could be quite frightening when she wanted to be.