Need advice on an NED character

[Hawkflight]

So, for those of you unfamiliar with NED, here's a link.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10676254#post10676254

That said, I need advice on creating a gestalt character up form level 1, optimizing it, and getting it to survive the horrors of NED. I'm thinking I want to start with a level in Swordsage/Barbarian and grab the Weapon Finesse feat, so I can go Monk/Druid or Monk/Swordsage. or maybe Monk/Barbarian for a second level and let Str be a complete dump stat, using Dex for my Flurry of Blows.

Swordsage is essential, even if for just one level, because I really want access to those maneuvers and stances. I would like to take Monk for the Flurry of Blows ability, as well as some other benefits such as Unarmed Strike, an AC Bonus, and a Speed Bonus (which I would like to go six levels for). Barbarian is essential as well, to get that 1 BAB at first level and let me take the Weapon Finesse. I also plan to take the Lion Totem feature, allowing me to Pounce enemies on a charge and make a full attack with a Flurry of Blows. Druid also looks nice, because of its Predator Form ability.

I'm thinking of taking a level of Fist of the Forest for some more nifty bonuses, including better Unarmed Strike damage, more AC, and Fast Movement. Kensai is also a possibility, so I can actually give my fists some nifty enchantments.

[dragonsamurai77]

So, for those of you unfamiliar with NED, here's a link.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10676254#post10676254

That said, I need advice on creating a gestalt character up form level 1, optimizing it, and getting it to survive the horrors of NED. I'm thinking I want to start with a level in Swordsage/Barbarian and grab the Weapon Finesse feat, so I can go Monk/Druid or Monk/Swordsage. or maybe Monk/Barbarian for a second level and let Str be a complete dump stat, using Dex for my Flurry of Blows.

Swordsage is essential, even if for just one level, because I really want access to those maneuvers and stances. I would like to take Monk for the Flurry of Blows ability, as well as some other benefits such as Unarmed Strike, an AC Bonus, and a Speed Bonus (which I would like to go six levels for). Barbarian is essential as well, to get that 1 BAB at first level and let me take the Weapon Finesse. I also plan to take the Lion Totem feature, allowing me to Pounce enemies on a charge and make a full attack with a Flurry of Blows. Druid also looks nice, because of its Predator Form ability.

I'm thinking of taking a level of Fist of the Forest for some more nifty bonuses, including better Unarmed Strike damage, more AC, and Fast Movement. Kensai is also a possibility, so I can actually give my fists some nifty enchantments.

Monk is a trap. 2 levels are actually good in some builds, but it's horrible beyond that. Flurry of Blows may look good, but it ends up being Flurry of Misses more often than not, though keeping your other side of the gestalt with full BAB may help a little. Overall, though, the class offers nothing but a bunch of weak abilities that don't synchronize, the prime example being the Speed Bonus you want so much and Flurry of Blows, which requires you to stay still. In addition, Monk and Barbarian are incompatible due to alignment, which the NED does enforce mechanically. I'm not sure if NED accepts it or not, but if it does, Unarmed Swordsage would be much better, keeping the Monk's AC bonus and unarmed strike progression, but also gives you maneuvers. It also has no alignment restrictions.

Finally, Druid is good. Druid is very good. Take a level of Druid every level, no exceptions. Your Animal Companion will provide good melee support, while you have a powerful spell list to support you.

[Doc Roc]

Druid crusader is charming and under played.

[Hawkflight]

I see. Then, any advice on an unarmed swordsage build, possibly with a level of Barbarian? Maybe go into a level of Fist of the Forest for the nifty buffs, or Kensai for the ability to give my fists some sweet buffs.

Also, I think I may have miscommunicated. When I said Druid, I meant the Shapeshifting variant. Wild Shape is nifty, but the animal companion pretty much sucks after the first few levels. If I just want to get an animal companion, I'm sure there's a way to get a better one. And if I just want the Wild Shape, I can take the UA Ranger variant. EDIT: Or, even better, just take the Shapeshifting Druid version. Less of that annoying bookkeeping and having to completely rewrite my character sheet every time I go Wild Shape. Plus it's available from level 1.

EDIT 2: Actually, isn't there a feat that lets me get an animal companion?

[erikun]

Wild Cohort, yes. You take an effective -3 level penality when selecting animals other than those avaliable for first level. If you don't like the Druid's animal companion, I'd be surprised that you're interested in a wild cohort instead.

[dragonsamurai77]

I see. Then, any advice on an unarmed swordsage build, possibly with a level of Barbarian? Maybe go into a level of Fist of the Forest for the nifty buffs, or Kensai for the ability to give my fists some sweet buffs.

Also, I think I may have miscommunicated. When I said Druid, I meant the Shapeshifting variant. Wild Shape is nifty, but the animal companion pretty much sucks after the first few levels. If I just want to get an animal companion, I'm sure there's a way to get a better one. And if I just want the Wild Shape, I can take the UA Ranger variant. EDIT: Or, even better, just take the Shapeshifting Druid version. Less of that annoying bookkeeping and having to completely rewrite my character sheet every time I go Wild Shape. Plus it's available from level 1.

EDIT 2: Actually, isn't there a feat that lets me get an animal companion?

Wild Cohort, though it may be considered "Leadership and its related feats (such as Undead Leadership).", and thus banned in the NED.

[Hawkflight]

I see. Would the Improved Animal Companion feat also be banned? (I can't see why, but it never hurts to ask.)

And I could still use some advice on my other points.

[Hawkflight]

So here's what I'm pondering.

Human

Str: Dump
Dex: High
Con: Whatever's left over
Int: High
Wis: Dump
Cha: Dump

First level: Swordsage / Barbarian, Carmendine Monk and Weapon Finesse for feats
Second level: Monk / Rogue or Factotum
Third level: Swordsage / Fighter
Fourth level: Swordsage / Rogue (if I picked Rogue before) or Fighter
Fifth level: Swordsage / Fist of the Forest

.....And that's all I got atm. There is one other alternative I was considering.....

First level: Warblade / Monk, same feats as before
Second level: Rogue / Monk
Third level: Fighter / Monk
Fourth level: Warblade / Monk
Fifth level: Fighter / Monk
Sixth level: Fist of the Forest / Rogue
Seventh level: Fist of the Forest / Warblade
Eighth level: Fist of the Forest / Fighter
Ninth level: Fighter / Monk
Tenth level: Warblade / Monk

Not sure about the rest. Thoughts?

[Doc Roc]

That's way too much monk. It's just unspeakably too much monk. If you want to hit things, go druid.

If you want to hit things, you don't want to lose BAB early on.

[Hawkflight]

I would like to point out that, as a gestalt character, this guy gets full BAB.

[erikun]

Why not just use the unarmed Swordsage instead of Monk levels? I see no reason to take Monk 1 if you're already getting the AC bonus from Swordsage.

Second level: Monk / Rogue or Factotum would give you +0 BAB. You only get full BAB if one of the gestalt classes that level gets full BAB.

Any reason why you keep jumping around with the secondary classes? Just what is Barbarian 1/Rogue 1/Fighter 2 or Barbarian 1/Factotum 1/Fighter 1/Rogue 1 supposed to give you that, say, Barb 2/Rogue 2 or Barb 2/Factotum 2 does not?

[Doc Roc]

Why not just go Warblade//Factotum? It's really fun, really satisfying, and just really good.

[Hawkflight]

So how's this, for an int-based Fighter / Unarmed Swordsage?

1: Warblade / Factotum
2: Fighter / Unarmed Swordsage
3: Fighter / UA SS
4: Factotum / UA SS
5: Fighter / UA SS
6: Fighter / UA SS
7: Factotum / Fist of the Forest
8: UA SS / FotF
9: UA SS / FotF

Level 1: Warblade is for full BAB and some maneuvers to tide me over until I get UA SS. Factotum nets me some nice Inspiration abilities, boosted by Font of Inspiration twice with two flaws. It also gets me a crapton of skill points.

From there on, I go Fighter for full BAB and bonus feats with UA SS for ... obvious reasons. Factotum at 4 is for more Inspiration and tp get me closer to Factotum 3. (I still keep full BAB because UA SS gets +1 BAB at that level.) Then at level 7 I go into Fist of the Forest for some sweet buffs.

Thoughts?

[Hawkflight]

Maybe I should go Kensai instead of FotF? Or both?

[Mystic Muse]

Just one level of Factotum doesn't seem like it would be that great, although I don't really have experience with it.

[Cadian 9th]

Wild Cohort, though it may be considered "Leadership and its related feats (such as Undead Leadership).", and thus banned in the NED.

Speaking as a 1st floor DM and an active poster over there, it's not. Also up for grabs are Elemental Envoys (Ruled to be replaced for 24 hours, no cost), Psicrystals, Wild Cohorts, and Soulsparks.


So here's what I'm pondering.

Human

Str: Dump
Dex: High
Con: Whatever's left over
Int: High
Wis: Dump
Cha: Dump

First level: Swordsage / Barbarian, Carmendine Monk and Weapon Finesse for feats
Second level: Monk / Rogue or Factotum
Third level: Swordsage / Fighter
Fourth level: Swordsage / Rogue (if I picked Rogue before) or Fighter
Fifth level: Swordsage / Fist of the Forest

.....And that's all I got atm. There is one other alternative I was considering.....

First level: Warblade / Monk, same feats as before
Second level: Rogue / Monk
Third level: Fighter / Monk
Fourth level: Warblade / Monk
Fifth level: Fighter / Monk
Sixth level: Fist of the Forest / Rogue
Seventh level: Fist of the Forest / Warblade
Eighth level: Fist of the Forest / Fighter
Ninth level: Fighter / Monk
Tenth level: Warblade / Monk

Not sure about the rest. Thoughts?

Okay, first, I can't see you dealing enough damage at 1st level to be a damage dealer, yet you lack resilience and AC, (And saves) to survive properly. Factotum at 1st level will go a long way to increasing your attack ability and saves (As each trap, etc, is an encounter).

You need better everything for every level. My build which cracked the 1st floor (slightly improved in hindsight) was a Water Orc Dragonborn Crusader//Shape Shift druid with Soulmeld (Therapeutic Mantle), Rageclaws and Tomb Tainted Soul. Using Black Sand from Sandstorm gave me fast healing d4+2, and every time I hit I was dealing d6+12 and healing 5 hp.

Druid in the dungeon is actually really poor - until you get long lasting wildshape, but really that's a role better filled by Wildshape Ranger due to Base attack and skills. Shapeshift Druid, good.

In your build above, for 1st level at least, Barbarian seems to be adding nothing. Take Hit and Run fighter with Sneak attack, or Weapon Finesse. That'll drastically increase your damage in the first round, letting you take advantage of great maneuvers such as Wolf Fang Strike.

I'd advise you to really decide on what your character will do, and then focus as hard as you can on those objectives. Finally, keep your plan flexible with regards to leveling. You may find it doesn't match your play style/your DM's style. Don't get discouraged when your character fails, it happens to everyone. Good luck!

[Hawkflight]

Speaking as a 1st floor DM and an active poster over there, it's not. Also up for grabs are Elemental Envoys (Ruled to be replaced for 24 hours, no cost), Psicrystals, Wild Cohorts, and Soulsparks.



Okay, first, I can't see you dealing enough damage at 1st level to be a damage dealer, yet you lack resilience and AC, (And saves) to survive properly. Factotum at 1st level will go a long way to increasing your attack ability and saves (As each trap, etc, is an encounter).

You need better everything for every level. My build which cracked the 1st floor (slightly improved in hindsight) was a Water Orc Dragonborn Crusader//Shape Shift druid with Soulmeld (Therapeutic Mantle), Rageclaws and Tomb Tainted Soul. Using Black Sand from Sandstorm gave me fast healing d4+2, and every time I hit I was dealing d6+12 and healing 5 hp.

Druid in the dungeon is actually really poor - until you get long lasting wildshape, but really that's a role better filled by Wildshape Ranger due to Base attack and skills. Shapeshift Druid, good.

In your build above, for 1st level at least, Barbarian seems to be adding nothing. Take Hit and Run fighter with Sneak attack, or Weapon Finesse. That'll drastically increase your damage in the first round, letting you take advantage of great maneuvers such as Wolf Fang Strike.

I'd advise you to really decide on what your character will do, and then focus as hard as you can on those objectives. Finally, keep your plan flexible with regards to leveling. You may find it doesn't match your play style/your DM's style. Don't get discouraged when your character fails, it happens to everyone. Good luck!

Thank you for the advice. Although, I have to admit ... I have no idea what some of those things are. What's "Hit and Run Fighter". What is Soulmeld? What are Rage Claws? What is Black Sand? What is ... practically everything else there? ^^;

Also, I would like your opinions on the revised build I posted later on. I can also see myself going Warblade / Something Else, though that would involve drastically altering my build.


So how's this, for an int-based Fighter / Unarmed Swordsage?

1: Warblade / Factotum
2: Fighter / Unarmed Swordsage
3: Fighter / UA SS
4: Factotum / UA SS
5: Fighter / UA SS
6: Fighter / UA SS
7: Factotum / Fist of the Forest
8: UA SS / FotF
9: UA SS / FotF

Level 1: Warblade is for full BAB and some maneuvers to tide me over until I get UA SS. Factotum nets me some nice Inspiration abilities, boosted by Font of Inspiration twice with two flaws. It also gets me a crapton of skill points.

From there on, I go Fighter for full BAB and bonus feats with UA SS for ... obvious reasons. Factotum at 4 is for more Inspiration and tp get me closer to Factotum 3. (I still keep full BAB because UA SS gets +1 BAB at that level.) Then at level 7 I go into Fist of the Forest for some sweet buffs.

Thoughts?

[Cadian 9th]

Thank you for the advice. Although, I have to admit ... I have no idea what some of those things are. What's "Hit and Run Fighter". What is Soulmeld? What are Rage Claws? What is Black Sand? What is ... practically everything else there? ^^;

Also, I would like your opinions on the revised build I posted later on. I can also see myself going Warblade / Something Else, though that would involve drastically altering my build.

No problem, here's what they are and where they're from:
-Hit and Run fighter is a Fighter with the Hit and Run alternate class feature, Drow of the Underdark. It lets you add your dexterity modifier to your damage against a flat footed opponent within 30ft, doesn't work on SA immune. Replaces your Heavy Armor and Tower Shield profficiency.

-A Soulmeld is a type of Magic from Magic of Incarnum. They're like magic items that scale on the fly. Rage Claws let you fight while dying normally, till -10 and 3 more with each essentia point you put in. Essentia is like mana points. Therapeutic mantle increases healing by the effects level + 2/essentia.

-Black sand is a type of sand from Sandstorm which, while not immediately obvious, can be embedded in your skin to deal you d4 negative energy damage per round. Tomb tainted soul will let you heal from that.

-SS druid is Shapeshift Druid, PHB2.

Your revised build works pretty well. Too many fighter levels, however. Perhaps:

1: Warblade/Factotum
2: Fighter/Swordsage
3: Fighter/Swordsage
4: Warblade/Swordsage
5: Warblade/Swordsage
6: Warblade/Fist.

To be honest I don't get why you're taking Fist of the Forest. Avoid limited use abilities, /encounter is gold. Perhaps look into something else. Like I said before, do what suits your play style/your DM - it'll vary from your plan most of the time.

[Hawkflight]

No problem, here's what they are and where they're from:
-Hit and Run fighter is a Fighter with the Hit and Run alternate class feature, Drow of the Underdark. It lets you add your dexterity modifier to your damage against a flat footed opponent within 30ft, doesn't work on SA immune. Replaces your Heavy Armor and Tower Shield profficiency.

Ah, thanks. If I get the Shadow Blade feat (which lets me add my dex bonus to damage instead of my str bonus), does it stack?

...

Your revised build works pretty well. Too many fighter levels, however. Perhaps:

1: Warblade/Factotum
2: Fighter/Swordsage
3: Fighter/Swordsage
4: Warblade/Swordsage
5: Warblade/Swordsage
6: Warblade/Fist.

Yeah. Thing was, I was trying to avoid using both Warblade and Swordsage, for the simple reason that I reeeally don't want to have to maintain 2 maneuver lists. I just had those Fighter levels for the feats, which can be pretty powerful and can help me qualify for some PrCs earlier.

To be honest I don't get why you're taking Fist of the Forest. Avoid limited use abilities, /encounter is gold. Perhaps look into something else. Like I said before, do what suits your play style/your DM - it'll vary from your plan most of the time.

Yyyyyeah, not sure about FotF myself. I'll probably end up switching that out for another PrC. For now, just consider up to level 6.

Thanks. Responses inside the quote, in bold.

[Cadian 9th]

For a dex based character, Swordsage works better due to Shadow Blade and counter maneuvers. Warblade works better with brute attacks, at least at 1-3rd levels.

Note that Shadow Blade does NOT replace strength. tis an advantage and a downside. And yes, they stack.

If you need bonus feats, Psychic Warrior 2, Martial Rogue 2 (UA), Wizard combat variant 1 (UA) are all clamoring for your attention. :smallwink:

[Hawkflight]

*reads up on Martial Rogue*

....I think I'm in love. This could be just what I need.

New build!

1: Factotum / Unarmed Swordsage
2: Martial Rogue / Unarmed Swordsage
3: Martial Rogue / Unarmed Swordsage
4: Factotum / Unarmed Swordsage
5: Fighter / Unarmed Swordsage
6: Fighter / Unarmed Swordsage
7: Factotum / [PrC]

Why do I switch from Martial Rogue to Fighter halfway through? More BAB and more feats, of course.