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View Full Version : Requesting Assistance in Fleshing Out a Concept



Lord Syn
2011-04-05, 10:36 PM
Greetings, fellow Playground denizens.

I have a concept for a homebrew, possibly D20 game involving unexpectedly super-powered individuals in an otherwise normal modern world.
Unfortunately, I'm having difficulty in turning said concept into actual workable mechanics, and as such, have turned to you wonderful people for help.

Some basic background-information on the theme itself:
The concept (ignoring the unnecessary plot-details) is relatively simple: one night, fifty-two individuals within the same metropolitan area all experience the same bizarre, unintelligible (for now) dream; upon awakening from the dream, they each discover, to their surprise, a tattoo-like birthmark on their upper arm, consisting of one of four fairly well-known basic shapes (Heart, Diamond, Club, Spade), with a cut-out of either a number (2-10) or a letter (J, Q, K, A) in the center.

Yes, in case it isn't quite clear enough: each tattoo represents one of the fifty-two cards in a standard playing-card deck. This is intentional, and significant.

Over the course of the next few days, the Cards (as the bearers of these mysterious marks will eventually come to be known by the general public) begin to discover that, in addition to the unusual birthmark/tattoo, they have also gained a mysterious power, whose exact nature is unique to each Card; for example, one might have the power of flight, while another can lift several times his own weight, and a third is able to turn invisible at will.

While the reasons and methods by which these particular individuals were given these powers remains a mystery, the fact that they have them means that their lives have all gotten a great deal more interesting and dangerous, especially given the fact that, as far as anyone knows, super-powers and the like aren't supposed to even exist, leaving much of the rest of humanity to wonder just what sort of threat - or opportunity - these Cards may represent to the world as a whole.

Some details regarding the mechanics I've already determined:


While the exact ability of the individual Cards in a particular Suit may or may not be related to each other, the relative power-level of each Card is directly related to his or her card's value; I.E. a '5' is more powerful than a '4', but weaker than a '6'.
Cards of equal value to each other are relatively equal to each other in power-level, in regards to their own ability; I.E. a 5 of Hearts is about as strong in his or her field as a 5 of Clubs in his or her own.
For the 'Number' Cards (2-10), the difference in power-level is fairly moderate, in proportion to the difference in value between the two Cards; I.E. a 5 would be evenly matched to another 5, would be able to take on a 6 with some heavy effort, might be able to handle a 7 with preparation, sacrifice and a great deal of luck, and would end up being beat down by an 8 rather quickly.
For the 'Face' Cards (J-K), the difference in power-level is more a matter of degree; I.E. what a 10 is to a 5, so is a Jack to a 10, and so in turn a Queen to a Jack. Kings are not only stronger than Queens by a similar measure, but also generally have a much wider range of use for their abilities, depending on the nature of their Card's particular power.
In a class all their own, the Aces are pretty much demigods among the Cards, with powers far beyond the ken of normal men. (System-wise, the Aces are mainly intended to be used much like the Antediluveans from V:tM* - in other words, extremely rare events intended for changing the face of the entire campaign and/or game-world, and often requiring the combined efforts of multiple entire Suits working in tandem to deal with.)
Finally, there are two Jokers in the setting (known as the Jester and the Fool), whose powers are unique and mostly unrelated to those of the rest of the Cards; these two are mainly intended to be a source of chaos and are pretty much their own plotline in addition to everything else going on. In short, while they may also be Cards, they're treated separately from all the others, as befits their unique natures and abilities.

(*Vampire: the Masquerade, an RPG created by White Wolf, for those unfamilliar with the term.)


Unfortunately, here is where I have come to the end of my creative abilities, and where I now turn to my fellow forumites for aid. While I've set the basic ground-rules for the system, I'm ashamed to say that actually figuring out what fifty-two particular powers should be bestowed, and how exactly they should be ranked, is a problem which has been frustrating me for literally months now. In short, I need your help in choosing powers, and in sorting these powers into a workable, relatively balanced order. I'm willing to entertain any suggestions you all might have, and look forward to your suggestions.

One final note: Just to curtail the inevitable (or at least delay it some), I wish to state most definitely at this time that the exact powers for the Jester and Fool are already defined, and set in stone as far as I'm concerned. Just a polite heads-up on the issue.

With that stated: Ladies and Gentlemen, please let the suggestions begin.

Jallorn
2011-04-05, 10:58 PM
I'm interested in helping out here. Off the top of my head so far I've come up with a few ideas:

1. It could be something like Highlander, where killing/defeating another card earns you their powers? Could be problematic with the Aces, and the faces in general actually, but might be a possibility. One solution could be that the faces can only take powers from equivalently powered individuals. So if the seven of clubs were to gain the powers of all the other clubs, they would be fair game to the face cards. Alternately, Only cross suit conflict garners power, so that a five of clubs would only be able to gain power by taking down the fives of spades, hearts, and diamonds.

2. Another idea was that the numerical ranking could be a little fluid, and one's position could change through conflict. So if the four of hearts managed to beat the four of spades and the four of clubs simultaneously, he might become the six of hearts, reducing six to five.

3. But to your original idea, I would have each suit have a theme of some kind. Maybe Clubs could be the physical suit, so you've got your super strongs, your super durables, and your shapchangers in one suit. Then Hearts might be you mind suit, so telepathy, illusions, telekinesis, that kind of thing. Diamonds might be energy based, your fliers, your laser blasters, your energy forms, and Spades... well I dunno about Spades, I'm drawing a blank, but the idea is to pick a theme that has some kinda basis in the symbolism of the suit, but that is broad enough that most numbers can have a relatively unique power set.

Lord Syn
2011-04-05, 11:07 PM
I'm interested in helping out here. Off the top of my head so far I've come up with a few ideas:

[.....]

2. Another idea was that the numerical ranking could be a little fluid, and one's position could change through conflict. So if the four of hearts managed to beat the four of spades and the four of clubs simultaneously, he might become the six of hearts, reducing six to five.


I have various ideas about how to handle this sort of situation. I'm still fleshing them out, but I mostly intend to make it difficult for a person to change their power once their character is finalized - I'm kinda hoping for this to be the sort of game that challenges the players to find the best and most creative ways to use their powers to their advantage, as opposed to simply collecting new and different abilities.



3. But to your original idea, I would have each suit have a theme of some kind. Maybe Clubs could be the physical suit, so you've got your super strongs, your super durables, and your shapchangers in one suit. Then Hearts might be you mind suit, so telepathy, illusions, telekinesis, that kind of thing. Diamonds might be energy based, your fliers, your laser blasters, your energy forms, and Spades... well I dunno about Spades, I'm drawing a blank, but the idea is to pick a theme that has some kinda basis in the symbolism of the suit, but that is broad enough that most numbers can have a relatively unique power set.

I've considered this as well, but much like you, I'm having some difficulty determining what each suit should have as a defining style.

Croverus
2011-04-05, 11:14 PM
I'm interested in helping out here. Off the top of my head so far I've come up with a few ideas:

1. It could be something like Highlander, where killing/defeating another card earns you their powers? Could be problematic with the Aces, and the faces in general actually, but might be a possibility. One solution could be that the faces can only take powers from equivalently powered individuals. So if the seven of clubs were to gain the powers of all the other clubs, they would be fair game to the face cards. Alternately, Only cross suit conflict garners power, so that a five of clubs would only be able to gain power by taking down the fives of spades, hearts, and diamonds.

2. Another idea was that the numerical ranking could be a little fluid, and one's position could change through conflict. So if the four of hearts managed to beat the four of spades and the four of clubs simultaneously, he might become the six of hearts, reducing six to five.

3. But to your original idea, I would have each suit have a theme of some kind. Maybe Clubs could be the physical suit, so you've got your super strongs, your super durables, and your shapchangers in one suit. Then Hearts might be you mind suit, so telepathy, illusions, telekinesis, that kind of thing. Diamonds might be energy based, your fliers, your laser blasters, your energy forms, and Spades... well I dunno about Spades, I'm drawing a blank, but the idea is to pick a theme that has some kinda basis in the symbolism of the suit, but that is broad enough that most numbers can have a relatively unique power set.

Gonna piggy back on this.

1. I'm not sure on this but go for it. Might make some of the people power hungry and force weaker cards to work together.


2. I like this plan, try this. The numbers on a person's tattoo should change if they manage to make themselves more powerful than whoever was the previous holder. Also with the killing of a card, all numbers of that suit below him shoudl go up as the vacuum is filled (so even the 2 of spades could get stronger if he lays low and waits for some of the other spades to be taken out.)

3. Yeah, each one should be focused somehow, like diamonds focus on defensive powers, clubs on offensive, hearts on powers that can heal or control themselves and others, and then maybe spades should be elemental powers.

Jallorn
2011-04-05, 11:18 PM
3. Yeah, each one should be focused somehow, like diamonds focus on defensive powers, clubs on offensive, hearts on powers that can heal or control themselves and others, and then maybe spades should be elemental powers.

Eh, it would be much more interesting if each suit's theme has both offensive and defensive options, rather than pinning a single suit to offense, a single one to defense, etc. Also Spades seems to be the strongest in this setup...

Although, in poker a Royal Flush of Spades will beat other Royal Flushes...

arguskos
2011-04-05, 11:45 PM
Poker-related aside:

Although, in poker a Royal Flush of Spades will beat other Royal Flushes...
Just to be super picky, this is not true. This rule is not part of the generally agreed upon "standard" hand order, but is a house rule that gained credence from some flawed book or saying somewhere. In truth, a pair of so-called "royal" flushes (also notable for not being a "true" hand, it's just the name of the highest possible straight flush, much like how 5 4 3 2 A is called a "steel wheel") are equal in value, and thus split the pot. Some houses rule that a royal of spades trumps a royal of anything else, but this is not official, and it sets bad precedent (it ranks the suits, and that's a bad idea). Personally, I never have played at a table where this was accepted (though, royal over royal is so stupidly rare that it may as well never happen, I have never seen it, and I know no one who has).

Ok, sorry, that was a crazy-huge nitpick. :smalltongue:

On-topic: I have little to add, but I do have two worries:
1. Have you considered the in-world ramifications of 52 people with magical super-powers running around, especially 2 chaos bringers and 4 demigods? If not, you better do that, since odds are (haha) that your players are going to want to know how the world changes.

2. Ranking things by card value is sensical on paper, but when it comes to play, you're going to have players who are just categorically BETTER than other players, which is not fun. If Bob is the King of Spades and Jill is the 10 of Hearts, we've got an issue, since Bob is three orders of magnitude stronger all around than Jill. You can restrict this somewhat by making players only 10 or below, but then you have the face cards (J, Q, K, and A) running around doing whatever the hell they want with no fear of retribution (a Jack is an order of magnitude above a 10, so what is a party of 8, 5, 4, and 9 gonna do to him? Be mildly annoying?). It's a functionally flawed premise. Work this out before going any further, since you don't want unhappy players, do you?

Savannah
2011-04-05, 11:52 PM
I like Jallorn's idea to have the suits themed (although I think that Diamond should be mind, for some reason....). Perhaps something social could be the last suit? So various mind control, talking to animals/speaking all languages, and similar powers? Unless that's too close to "mind".... Or perhaps something technology-related. Not sure what powers would work for that, though.

I also agree with arguskos' second point (and the first, although the second is the one I'm more concerned about). It's an awesome idea, but unless you've got exactly four players and are making them each the same number in different suits, it is likely to be problematic.

Pechvarry
2011-04-06, 10:24 PM
(although I think that Diamond should be mind, for some reason....)

Because of Emma Frost, of course.
--

The biggest problem I see, as has been mentioned, is power balance for players. A party of all numbered cards needs a way to at least stand up to a face card, and a 3 of Hearts is going to feel like crap if the other party members are 8s, 10s, and even face cards. You could always give players a higher "bad ass normal score" the lower their face number is. I don't know what system you're using, but I'll use a shadowrun analogue: additional skill ranks and extra edge points. So the lower your power, the luckier you are and the more batman you are.

Another idea is being able to work in concert, especially for the normal number cards. If you're at all familiar with the Wheel of Time books, female casters in the series are weaker than men but can link together, making them much more fearsome than a similar number of male casters. In the same way, you could give standard number cards the ability to aid each other, aiding their numbers together to get a final power level. From here, you could add limitations as you see fit -- same suit, for example. Or only legal poker hands if you want to get funny.

Jallorn
2011-04-06, 10:49 PM
Ooh! I might have an answer to the imbalance issue: Elegant rules-light system. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10096295)

Pechvarry
2011-04-07, 10:27 AM
The FATE system is pretty great at balancing this kind of stuff, as well. In fact, the FATE system is remarkably good at "self-balancing." The cons with such systems is that they never feel... crunchy enough for some people's liking. Still, the high-level, story-driven systems may be just what the OP needs to keep it fun for everyone.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-04-07, 11:18 AM
Personally, I'd lean away from the standard deck, and instead aim for a Tarot card deck. Those cards all have meanings, and you could derive powers from them rather nicely.

That said, I'll let you know if I have any further thoughts on the matter.

Ajadea
2011-04-07, 01:39 PM
I have to go with what Djinn In Tonic is saying: use the Major Arcana+Minor Arcana Face cards and Aces from the Tarot or find some other way to balance the characters so not everyone is shafted.

Or go back to the Tarot, but go to the Minor Arcana and see the number meanings.

The Ten of Swords and Wands are both things I'd view as 'destructive' cards, but the Ten of Cups and Pentacles are 'beneficial' cards.

Translate as follows: Cups->Hearts, Swords-> Spades, Pentacles/Coins-> Diamonds, Wands->Clubs.

Tier the cards like this: Numbers/Faces/Aces, and use the numbers as further theme guidelines instead of as power levels.