Factotum Math

[Vuann]

I'm trying to figure out the "math" of choosing which stat to boost in a Factotum build that is focused on melee. Obviously the easy answer is INT as it's their main stat, though for those wanting to do more of a martial based factotum it gets a bit trickier.

Right now my Rogue is level one and I'm switching to Factotum at level 2. I'm going to try to get DM to let me make 1st level factotum as well as jostle a couple stats to fit the character better. Right now he has 15 int, 14 str, 17 dex. I was considering swapping out dex with str since I don't want to blow a bunch of feats on combat finesse/shadow blade(when I go swordsage) and I plan on using a big 2h weapon.

So if I went str 17, at level 4 I'd go 18 giving me +4 to hit and damage. With cunning insight I'd get +2 to hit/attack/save. That'd give me +6 total to hit or damage when using that ability. If I went 15 str and 17 int, then at level 4 made it 18 int I'd be getting +4 to hit/damage/save using the cunning insight. The trade off is with higher strength I'd be doing better without relying on my inspiration points. However with higher Int my average attack/damage is lower but I'd have the ability to boost it and get all the other bonuses that int would give me (brains over brawn, knowledge devotion, etc..).

Personally it seems the gain from the Int definitely wins out over the strength in the long run, I'm just curious how much those points would effect me during an average fight. I plan on taking at least 2 or 3 font of inspirations so I'd have more points to pull out if I needed to hit in a fight.

Also a few more questions just so I understand how the class works:

1. Brains over brawn works with all strength/dex checks, but what does that constitute exactly? Off the to of my head I can think of initiative, tripping, grappling, overrun, etc... Does it work skills that are based off of dex and strength like jump?

2. Cunning knowledge says for one inspiration point I can add my class level as a modifier for a skill check for my chosen skill. It also says once per day per skill if I understand correctly. Meaning if we're fighting undead I could use it on a knowledge religion roll. Then later is it on a diplomacy check, then again on a disarm trap, search, listen, etc.. It's beginning to seem really powerful if this is how it works. Also could I use this ability during a concentration roll with a Diamond mind maneuver like the gem nightmare strikes and concentration based saves?

3. One last thing. Cunning strike essentially counts as sneak attack, therefore would it qualify for craven as a normal sneak attack would and if so obviously give you the bonus damage? Seems it'd still be a nice feat to have as you could at least burn up an inspiration point for getting a free 1d6+character level anytime an opponent is flat footed.

[Private-Prinny]

Also a few more questions just so I understand how the class works:

1. Brains over brawn works with all strength/dex checks, but what does that constitute exactly? Off the to of my head I can think of initiative, tripping, grappling, overrun, etc... Does it work skills that are based off of dex and strength like jump?

It specifically mentions working on Str/Dex based skills in the ability description, so yes, it does. Other common checks are breaking down a door and bull rushes.


2. Cunning knowledge says for one inspiration point I can add my class level as a modifier for a skill check for my chosen skill. It also says once per day per skill if I understand correctly. Meaning if we're fighting undead I could use it on a knowledge religion roll. Then later is it on a diplomacy check, then again on a disarm trap, search, listen, etc.. It's beginning to seem really powerful if this is how it works. Also could I use this ability during a concentration roll with a Diamond mind maneuver like the gem nightmare strikes and concentration based saves?

That is indeed how it works, and personally I think it's perfect as is. If you could use it infinitely, there would be no reason to not use it on an out-of-combat check, and if it was 1/day for only one skill, you'd stockpile it just in case. And yes, the Diamond Mind maneuvers make Concentration checks, so using Cunning Knowledge is valid.


3. One last thing. Cunning strike essentially counts as sneak attack, therefore would it qualify for craven as a normal sneak attack would and if so obviously give you the bonus damage? Seems it'd still be a nice feat to have as you could at least burn up an inspiration point for getting a free 1d6+character level anytime an opponent is flat footed.

Going strictly by RAW, you only have Sneak Attack for the brief moment of that one single attack, and then you don't have it anymore, meaning you don't qualify for Craven. And in truth, you have better things to be spending your feats on.

[Vuann]

That is indeed how it works, and personally I think it's perfect as is. If you could use it infinitely, there would be no reason to not use it on an out-of-combat check, and if it was 1/day for only one skill, you'd stockpile it just in case. And yes, the Diamond Mind maneuvers make Concentration checks, so using Cunning Knowledge is valid.

I agree I think it works fine, but it is definitely rather powerful in out of combat settings. But seeing as a factotum is the ultimate skillmonkey it fits him perfectly. I just hope the DM doesn't throw his book at me if I spam the crap out of it hehe.

DM: "Roll a listen check."
Me: "Cunning knowledge."
DM: "Roll a spot ch.."
Me: "Cunning knowledge!"
DM: "Roll a.."
Me: "Cunning knolwedge!"
DM: I didn't even say what we're rolling for!



It specifically mentions working on Str/Dex based skills in the ability description, so yes, it does. Other common checks are breaking down a door and bull rushes.

You're right, I guess it seemed a bit too good to be true, so I wanted to make sure. I think that completely answers my question as to which stat to keep the highest bar none. For skills, it's like raising str and dex for the low price of one. With enough fonts of inspiration feats I'd probably have plenty to spare in any normal encounter to spam cunning insight if I needed to for attack rolls.

My last question was going to be for which stats I boost via magic items, and it looks like Int once again as it's so synergistic. I was planning on going Factotum 8/Swordsage 2/Warblade x so I'd probably boost my strength as well for attack bonus, but Int seems to be the bread and butter. I swear the more I read about factotums the more potential and awesomeness I see in them.

[Veyr]

I agree I think it works fine, but it is definitely rather powerful in out of combat settings. But seeing as a factotum is the ultimate skillmonkey it fits him perfectly. I just hope the DM doesn't throw his book at me if I spam the crap out of it hehe.

DM: "Roll a listen check."
Me: "Cunning knowledge."
DM: "Roll a spot ch.."
Me: "Cunning knowledge!"
DM: "Roll a.."
Me: "Cunning knolwedge!"
DM: I didn't even say what we're rolling for!
You only get to use it for one Listen, one Spot, etc. So you want to try to use it on a rather-important Listen check, since those are common.

The ability is much more potent for weird skill uses, like that one time Use Rope becomes important.

[Akal Saris]

Charisma isn't such a bad stat for factotums either. It can help with Iajutsu Focus (especially with the Iajutsu Master PrC), Use Magic/Psionic Device, bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate - all excellent skills.

By the way, 1 level of rogue isn't so bad for a factotum. 8+Int x4 skills is very solid compared with factotum's 4+Int x4 skills at 1st level, and as you mentioned, Craven for 1d6+Character level on top of iajutsu damage will lend a lot of damage to the factotum, who otherwise lacks in that department.

For stats, I'd go Int > Str > Dex/Con/Cha > Wis.

[Major]

6+int x4. Not 4+int.

Also Iaijutsu focus and sneak attack don't stack.

[faceroll]

Also Iaijutsu focus and sneak attack don't stack.

Got a citation for that?

[Major]

Looking for it now. My DM linked me to a source when I said they did. I'm trying to find it in my history.

[Major]

Well he linked me to

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Iajutsu_focus

But upon reading the books, the errata, and searching the customer service I see no source for it not stacking...time to call him out and hopefully make my factotum ridiculous.

Edit: Apparently the source is from L5R which is the base for oriental adventures or whatever. Technically its third party, but it crosses over where OA is both for Rokugan and D&D?

Not sure cause it was unclear.

[faceroll]

All I got is OA, and nothing about stacking is mentioned.

[Gavinfoxx]

The Official WotC sources for L5R sort of stuff is Oriental Adventures and the 3.5 update, which is in... Dragon 318 I think??

Anyway, did you read the factotum handbook?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0

Note it has a few in jokes... like the basketweaving thing...

Also read the poison guide! It's linked within. Also the Handle Animal guide is good too...

[Major]

Dragon Magazine doesn't say anything nor does Oriental Adventure. But apparently from what I read its from the L5R third party sources.

Do they have their own game other than D&D that ties in to the same world?

Edit: That or its bull****.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think the official story is that Oriental Adventures is based off of the 3rd party world described in L5R, which... I think has a D20 game, but isn't primarily a D20 game? I'm not sure...

[MeeposFire]

All L5R stuff outside of Oriental adventures are separate from the rest of D&D officially. They changed iajistu focus in their later stuff since they did not like how people were using system outside of what they had decided was the intended use of the skill (regardless of the balance of using the skill itself in a vacuum). In strict D&D (no non-official or 3rd party stuff) I focuse stacks with sneak attack.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Brains over brawn works with all strength/dex checks, but what does that constitute exactly? Off the to of my head I can think of initiative, tripping, grappling, overrun, etc... Does it work skills that are based off of dex and strength like jump?
Initiative, trip, bull rush and overrun are definitely in, because they are explicitly dex or str checks. Disarm and sunder are definitely out, because they are explicitly attack rolls.

Grapple, on the other hand, is explicitly neither, since "grapple check" is a category of its own. It is "like an attack roll" and it has an "attack bonus", which includes both BAB and Str. I believe that by RAW it doesn't work. However, it's not unreasonable for a DM to rule that it does, so ask yours.

[Vuann]

Charisma isn't such a bad stat for factotums either. It can help with Iajutsu Focus (especially with the Iajutsu Master PrC), Use Magic/Psionic Device, bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate - all excellent skills.

By the way, 1 level of rogue isn't so bad for a factotum. 8+Int x4 skills is very solid compared with factotum's 4+Int x4 skills at 1st level, and as you mentioned, Craven for 1d6+Character level on top of iajutsu damage will lend a lot of damage to the factotum, who otherwise lacks in that department.

For stats, I'd go Int > Str > Dex/Con/Cha > Wis.

My con is 15 but I had to dump wis/cha. We didn't get point buy, we had to roll legit without even rerolling 1's so I'm lucky I got 4 good stats out of the deal.

I agree that Rogue is definitely not a bad level overall, except my DM will be enforcing exp penalties so once I go warblade and/or swordsage it will bite me in the a$$ at some point. On that note out of curiosity, can your "preferred class" be a lower level one? It seems to infer that your preferred class should be your highest but if you did say Rogue 1/Warblade 5/Factotum 5 would you still get exp penalty?


Also Iaijutsu focus and sneak attack don't stack.

I wasn't aware of this, and honestly I can't even think of why. Both very situational so it's not like you're just going to go nuts with it. Honestly I wouldn't even do it if I could as it seems a bit cheesy to go gnome quickrazor style. It kind of defeats the purpose of the whole idea behind a swordsman as you aren't truly "sheathing" your weapon in a traditional sense as it's implied. If I was a DM I wouldn't even let that one slide as it completely abuses RAW and should be RAI. But that's another argument hehe.

I will be taking swordsage for 2 levels at some point so when I pick up assassin's stance I can pick up craven and then stack it with cunning strike occasionally.

[Major]

Alright, got a more legitimate source.


From Oriental Adventures FAQs

If a character with the sneak attack ability and the
Iaijutsu Focus skill enters into a duel and wins the
Iaijutsu Focus check, does the damage from Iaijutsu
Focus stack with the sneak attack damage?

Yes, the bonus damage stacks. Note that in an iaijutsu
duel, the character who loses initiative in the strike phase is
flat-footed, even though that character took an action in the
stance phase (see page 82 in the Oriental Adventures book).
The flat-footed character is subject to sneak attack damage as
well as Iaijutsu Focus damage.


The example is with a duel but there is no reason to assume a different situation in other instances.

So my DM was wrong, meaning I was wrong. It does stack.

[NineThePuma]

L5R was originally (and still is, IIRC) a Card Game.

The Table Top RPG is completely different from D&D and DOESN'T HAVE Iaijutsu Focus or even the typical D&D stats.

Also: The dandwiki is notorious for having VERY LITTLE accurate info; outside the SRD, it is ALL homebrew. If he's citing it and the skill isn't SRD, I would take it with a grain of salt.

This (realmshelps.net) site is a great resource, but it DOES lack Iaijutsu's rules. However, it has the Improved Iaijutsu Focus feat, which gives you a very simple overview.

[Pentachoron]

Well he linked me to

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Iajutsu_focus

But upon reading the books, the errata, and searching the customer service I see no source for it not stacking...time to call him out and hopefully make my factotum ridiculous.

Edit: Apparently the source is from L5R which is the base for oriental adventures or whatever. Technically its third party, but it crosses over where OA is both for Rokugan and D&D?

Not sure cause it was unclear.

Also, you should tell him not to rely on dandwiki.com for official information, they do have some of the SRD on there, but much of the site is homebrew and it does a remarkably terrible job of differentiating the two.


*Edit* Swordsaged

[NineThePuma]

*Edit* Swordsaged

Nope. Kobol'd. :smallcool:

[MeeposFire]

L5R was originally (and still is, IIRC) a Card Game.

The Table Top RPG is completely different from D&D and DOESN'T HAVE Iaijutsu Focus or even the typical D&D stats.

Also: The dandwiki is notorious for having VERY LITTLE accurate info; outside the SRD, it is ALL homebrew. If he's citing it and the skill isn't SRD, I would take it with a grain of salt.

This (realmshelps.net) site is a great resource, but it DOES lack Iaijutsu's rules. However, it has the Improved Iaijutsu Focus feat, which gives you a very simple overview.

The D20 version of L5R did but it did not last that long and their other version of the rules is more well known. The L5R samurai D20 class used XP to enchant its daisho whereas the original samurai class in OA used gold as an example.

[Major]

Also, you should tell him not to rely on dandwiki.com for official information, they do have some of the SRD on there, but much of the site is homebrew and it does a remarkably terrible job of differentiating the two.


*Edit* Swordsaged


True, but I found the same ruling about sneak attack not stacking on countless sites.

They all tend to say word or word


Iaijutsu Strike - This skill allows you to channel your chi more effectively when making an attack. Whenever you are making an attack roll immediately after drawing a weapon and your target is flat-footed, you may make an Iaijutsu Focus check as a free action. The results of the roll determine the amount of additional damage done, as shown on the following table:

10-14: +1d6
15-19: +2d6
20-24: +3d6
25-29: +4d6
30-34: +5d6
35-39: +6d6
40-44: +7d6
45-49: +8d6
50+: +9d6

This damage is not cumulative with sneak attack damage or similar abilities if your character has them.

Couple sources,

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/3.5_L5R_Skills
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Iaijutsu_Focus_Skill <-horribely inaccurate, I know this. DM knows this. He wasn't using it as a source, but in light of seeing the ruling all over the internet and unable to find original since SRD lacks it.

Various forums have quoted it
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/288355-charging-iajitsu.html
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/299304-iaijutsu-soulknives.html
http://forumz.mastersofdisaster.org/viewtopic.php?p=999&sid=cd556732e221322d1c57e9c8d28bf5da

Anyway, I know that none of those are official, but the point was all that was copy pasted from somewhere which lead DM to believe it was ruled somewhere. And he convinced me, but considering the faq says it DOES stack, I gotta go with that being some false rumor that somehow spread.


---
Edit: Overall my point is I know agree. It DOES stack. I'm just pointing out why the confusion cause the internet says in lots of places and forums that it doesn't.

[Curmudgeon]

Cunning strike essentially counts as sneak attack, therefore would it qualify for craven as a normal sneak attack would and if so obviously give you the bonus damage?

Going strictly by RAW, you only have Sneak Attack for the brief moment of that one single attack, and then you don't have it anymore, meaning you don't qualify for Craven.
The distinction comes from the specific requirements of the Craven feat:
Prerequisite: Sneak attack class feature, cannot be immune to fear A Factotum has Cunning Strike as a class feature. They only occasionally, when they've spent an inspiration point on Cunning Strike, have sneak attack ─ and it's still not a class feature.

[Draz74]

What Curmudgeon said. Also, Brains over Brawn definitely does not apply to Grapple.

It does apply to Initiative, breaking stuff (e.g. doors, bonds), bull rush, overrun (who cares?), tripping, resisting bull rush or tripping, Climb, Jump, Swim, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Balance, Tumble, Escape Artist, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Use Rope. So it's still awesome.

[Vuann]

The distinction comes from the specific requirements of the Craven feat: A Factotum has Cunning Strike as a class feature. They only occasionally, when they've spent an inspiration point on Cunning Strike, have sneak attack ─ and it's still not a class feature.

I figured as much, just thought I'd ask. So by that ruling, a swordsage with assassin's stance and no other form of sneak attack doesn't quality either. Yet I've heard so many cases where people seem to allow it to count in places where sneak attack class feature is needed.



What Curmudgeon said. Also, Brains over Brawn definitely does not apply to Grapple.

It does apply to Initiative, breaking stuff (e.g. doors, bonds), bull rush, overrun (who cares?), tripping, resisting bull rush or tripping, Climb, Jump, Swim, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Balance, Tumble, Escape Artist, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Use Rope. So it's still awesome.


It truly is awesome.. I'm not sure how I missed the skills part originally. I guess it seemed too good. Sadly it really seems a Factotum can be a better thief/acrobat than a Rogue. Fewer skill points means little when you can raise both dex AND str skills with one modifier. Not to mention a Factotum's main stat is Int and thus you will be making up those skill points per level.

[Curmudgeon]

Yet I've heard so many cases where people seem to allow it to count in places where sneak attack class feature is needed.
Well, a lot of people get swept up in the enthusiasm of combining features from different sources, and only occasionally stop to check if they're actually following the rules.

The Rogue sneak attack class feature doesn't include any stacking language, for instance. And neither does the sneak attack in the Fatemaker Prc (Planar Handbook). You can't add the sneak attack in a Rogue/Fatemaker character; instead, those sneak attacks overlap, and you roll both and get the better of the two each time. But most prestige classes with sneak attack do include stacking language. A Rogue/Fatemaker/Assassin would let you stack all the sneak attack because there's language in the Assassin class allowing its sneak attack damage to stack with any other sneak attack bonus.

[JaronK]

It depends on whether you think a class feature that gives you sneak attack counts as a sneak attack class feature, or whether you instead think that sneak attack class feature means "a class feature that is titled 'sneak attack'".

Either way, Craven's not a great idea.

JaronK

[Curmudgeon]

It depends on whether you think a class feature that gives you sneak attack counts as a sneak attack class feature
Factotums have sneak attack from Cunning Strike to exactly the same extent that Rangers have sneak attack from their Spells class feature (because Hunter’s Eye is on the Ranger spell list, and grants sneak attack when cast).

[JaronK]

Pretty similar. Except it's more direct... Cunning Strike does nothing but give you sneak attack. Rangers "Spells" ability gives you a bunch of spells, and it's possible that one available spell is Hunter's Eye, which gives Sneak Attack.

But seriously, if someone said "please describe what Cunning Strike does" is there any way to do so without referring to it as an ability that gives you sneak attack? That's really all Cunning Strike is... a class ability that gives you sneak attack.

JaronK