3.5e: Grapple Flowcharts

[NNescio]

Anyone know of a flowchart for grappling in 3.5e? If not, can anyone tell how the pathfinder grappling rules differ from 3.5e's, so that I can use the pathfinder flowcharts with minor modifications?

I need to explain grappling to a newbie player, but going through the rules and creating a flowchart of my own seems... daunting.

[Kumori]

Initiating a grapple:
Provoke AoO (hit = end of attempt)
Melee touch attack (miss = end of attempt)
Opposed grapple check (fail = end of attempt)

Once grappling, you and your opponent each have the following options. Each requires an opposed grapple check or is a wasted action.
Basic Actions that don't affect how the grapple continues.
SActivate a Magic Item (no spell completion items [ie scrolls], no opposed check)
?Attack Your Opponent (Unarmed, Natural, or Light Weapon only. Necessity of opposed check is unclear)
VCast a Spell (Standard action or less; No 'S' components; 'M', 'F', and 'DF' components must be in hand)
ADamage Your Opponent (Unarmed)
MDraw a Light Weapon
FRetrieve a Spell Component
AUse Opponent's Weapon (light weapon only)
Actions that change the grapple
SEscape from Grapple (You may substitute an Escape Artist check)
Success ends the grapple. Failure wastes an action
SMove
Success allows you to move have your speed in any direction, taking all grapplers with you. Failure wastes an action.
APin Your Opponent
Success changes options for both grapplers, See below. Failure wastes an action.

If you are pinning your opponent you can
ADamage Your Opponent
AUse Opponent's Weapon (light weapon only)
SMove
SDisarm or remove secured worn object
VCast spell (Standard action or less, no 'S', 'M', or 'F' components.)
Hold opponent silent (no action, no opposed check)
MRelease opponent (no opposed check, ends grapple)

If you are pinned you can
SEscape the pin (you may substitute an Escape Artist check)
Success means you are still grappled, but no longer pinned. Failure wastes an action.

All actions, unless otherwise noted, require you to win an opposed grapple check to have any affect. Options are marked based on the action type required.

0 Free Action
M Move Action
S Standard Action
A Attack Action
F Full Round Action
V Varies
N No Action
? Unclear

[Ozreth]

Excited for this. Thanks : )

[NNescio]

I'm making one up for you. It'll take a bit, but I'm editing it into this post.

Just saying so that others know if they look into the thread so that they don't waste time/effort.

Thank you.

[Kumori]

Done... I made a judgement call on a few of the action types, but it should all be accurate. I don't think there's anything left out.

[Tehnar]

Just want to note that you can attack in a grapple without making a successful grapple check.

[Feytalist]

Bloody hell.

Did you type that up yourself?

If so, impressive. If not, link please :smallbiggrin:

[Croverus]

So no where in the rules does it mention performing any grappling moves other than pinning, moving, keeping them silent, and attaking them with their own weapon (which I picture as grabbing their wrist and making them stab themself).

Any rules about throwing an enemy? Like, I grapple with someone while my back is to a wall covered in spikes, I want to turn them so they're facing the wall and throw them into the spikes.

Or would this simply be the move action then voluntarily ending the grapple then bullrushing them into the spikes?

[Firechanter]

Conan had a cool combat maneuver called Fling Aside that you could perform if you had Improved Grapple. You needed one hand free to make a Grapple check and, if successful, you could throw your target (just 5' iirc) and it would land prone. I loved that move.

[Diarmuid]

So no where in the rules does it mention performing any grappling moves other than pinning, moving, keeping them silent, and attaking them with their own weapon (which I picture as grabbing their wrist and making them stab themself).

Any rules about throwing an enemy? Like, I grapple with someone while my back is to a wall covered in spikes, I want to turn them so they're facing the wall and throw them into the spikes.

Or would this simply be the move action then voluntarily ending the grapple then bullrushing them into the spikes?

Did you not see the list of actions you can take in a Grapple? Damage an Opponent, Cast a Spell, etc?

[Necroticplague]

Throwing someone your grappling requires a feat, throw foe.

[Veyr]

For throwing people around, the Setting Sun maneuvers are much more fun and efficient than grappling. Much, much easier to adjudicate, too.

[Keld Denar]

I found a little inconsistancy a while back, I'll include it here for completeness. It has to do with moving your opponent.



Move
You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.
Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.
Ok, so...cool, if you are wrestling with one person, and you have him pinned, its easier to move him. Great, thats awfully useful.

But wait, there's more...


Pin Your Opponent
You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).

So...wait, a pin only lasts for 1 round? Thats...unfortunate. So all my attempts on this turn to pin a foe are for naught, since the pin ends at the start of my next turn. But what if I want to drag my foe somewhere and collect that sausy +4 bonus? Nope, can't do it. Action economy says NO!

It takes a grapple action to pin someone. A grapple action is a form of attack action, which means that it either involves a standard action or a full round action (to make multiple attempts). So, if it takes me a standard action at LEAST to pin someone, I don't really have a standard action left to move them. And its not like I can spend this round's standard action to pin them, and assuming they don't escape, spend next round's standard action to drag them. Nope, because a pin only lasts one round. And its not like my friend can pin a foe for me, and then I move him, since it only works with 2 people in a grapple.

Keep in mind that the PHB was written before Belts of Battle or Factotums or any of the other ways to gain extra standard actions in a round.

Thus, at the time of writing, it is physically impossible to gain that +4 bonus to drag a pinned foe. Aren't rules fun?!?!?!?!

[Necroticplague]

Actually, I think you would move as a move action as normal, you just have to win a grapple check to do so. So it ends up breaking down like this(supossing you are already grappling):
1. State attempt to pin oponnent
2. Roll opposed grapple attempt
3. use up standard action whether you win or lose it (we'll supose you win)
4. state attempt to move grapple
5. roll opposed grapple attempt (you get the +4 here)
6. use up move action either way

I learned this from a thread about black blood cultist optimization(whos REAL capstone causes you to want to provoke as many opposed grapples as posible).

[Kumori]

Move: You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.
Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.

Nope, moving the grapple is a standard action.

[big teej]

Initiating a grapple:
Provoke AoO (hit = end of attempt)
Melee touch attack (miss = end of attempt)
Opposed grapple check (fail = end of attempt)

Once grappling, you and your opponent each have the following options. Each requires an opposed grapple check or is a wasted action.
Basic Actions that don't affect how the grapple continues.
SActivate a Magic Item (no spell completion items [ie scrolls], no opposed check)
?Attack Your Opponent (Unarmed, Natural, or Light Weapon only. Necessity of opposed check is unclear)
VCast a Spell (Standard action or less; No 'S' components; 'M', 'F', and 'DF' components must be in hand)
ADamage Your Opponent (Unarmed)
MDraw a Light Weapon
FRetrieve a Spell Component
AUse Opponent's Weapon (light weapon only)
Actions that change the grapple
SEscape from Grapple (You may substitute an Escape Artist check)
Success ends the grapple. Failure wastes an action
SMove
Success allows you to move have your speed in any direction, taking all grapplers with you. Failure wastes an action.
APin Your Opponent
Success changes options for both grapplers, See below. Failure wastes an action.

If you are pinning your opponent you can
ADamage Your Opponent
AUse Opponent's Weapon (light weapon only)
SMove
SDisarm or remove secured worn object
VCast spell (Standard action or less, no 'S', 'M', or 'F' components.)
Hold opponent silent (no action, no opposed check)
MRelease opponent (no opposed check, ends grapple)

If you are pinned you can
SEscape the pin (you may substitute an Escape Artist check)
Success means you are still grappled, but no longer pinned. Failure wastes an action.

All actions, unless otherwise noted, require you to win an opposed grapple check to have any affect. Options are marked based on the action type required.

0 Free Action
M Move Action
S Standard Action
A Attack Action
F Full Round Action
V Varies
N No Action
? Unclear

:smalleek:
are you cool with me printing this and sticking it to my dm screen?

[Kumori]

Go for it.

[ericgrau]

There's a printable page on it in my sig cheat sheets, among other rules.

[Zoltanne]

Hello all. I have read through the flowchart here and just wanted clarify whether casting a spell required an opposed grapple check as the SRD at http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Grapple#Cast_a_Spell says “You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell”.

[Daftendirekt]

In case you also want a flowchart for Pathfinder, just check my sig. :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

Hello all. I have read through the flowchart here and just wanted clarify whether casting a spell required an opposed grapple check as the SRD at http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Grapple#Cast_a_Spell says “You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell”.

This is, in fact, correct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#castaSpell).

Also, thread necromancy. :smallfrown: