OOTS #785 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[t209]

{{scrubbed}} Ganjii almost got that Tyrant's Neck!

[RMS Oceanic]

The last line made this a classic. :smallsmile:

[Quild]

I felt sorry for them on last strip, but not anymore now they're escaping!

[Edhelras]

Heh... Tarquin is almost like Uncle Scrooge there, making every Gp count...

Reminds me of myself, when I play Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights etc. Dragging all those loads of mundane loot over to the merchant, just to get those precious Gps.....

[Sr.medusa]

too bad, that's a lot of loot...

Great page!

[Deliverance]

A silly escape and I wish that the bounty hunters had ended up dying rather than performing a daring escape as a result of Belkar's idiotic plan, thus making Elan's failed logic come true ("Big dinosaur rampaging in arena == saving the bounty hunters"), which would have been a much more poignant concusion to the setup in #783, but under the circumstances, I've got to admit that I like the way Tarquin is thinking. :smallsmile:

[Lix Lorn]

This page made me laugh so much. Well done again for a hilarious/awesome/kinda heartwarming strip!

[grimbold]

I am looking forward to an Enor Gannji escape story arc
does anybody else think that these guys will become main characters?

[faustin]

Tarquin never stops amazing me! He is clearly THE Genre Savvy of villains.
He is not all about "Just as Planned", but simply knows how to make profit of every twist of fate.
Then again, congratulations to Rich for a well developed antagonist.:smallcool:

[Burner28]

Hahah....:smallamused: is Tarquin a cheapskate?:smalltongue:

[Lemonus]

Uh-oh! What will Tarquin do to Enor and Ganji? I mean, they just attacked him!

[squidbreath]

Phew. I thought they were gonna get it cos of the misleading title.

[Burner28]

Tarquin never stops amazing me! He is clearly THE Genre Savvy of villainess.
He is not all about "Just as Planned", but simply knows how to make profit of every twist of fate.
Then again, congratulations to Rich for a well developed antagonist.:smallcool:


And here I was thinking that two strips ago, tarquin has lost most of his fans.:smallbiggrin:

[Mutant Sheep]

The Enor flying panels are awesome. I can find the victory string, but its hard, it looks too much like blood.

[RMS Oceanic]

Uh-oh! What will Tarquin do to Enor and Ganji? I mean, they just attacked him!

From Tarquin's point of view, they gave a dramatic climax to these games and saved him 2GP that he would have spent on a new spear.

[Lorin]

Wow, Tarquin just reestablished my opinion about him as a Magnificent Bastard.

[Damaris]

And here I was thinking that two strips ago, tarquin has lost most of his fans.:smallbiggrin:

I kinda got that impression too, but I don't see how excessive cruelty takes away from a characters who's already been established as a total bastard...

Anyway, go Tarquin! :smalltongue:

[RebelRogue]

So I guess that should allow us to calculate Gannji and Enor's level...

[Jimorian]

From Tarquin's point of view, they gave a dramatic climax to these games and saved him 2GP that he would have spent on a new spear.

Even if the spear had hit the mark, with the price of a res, Tarquin would still have been in the black. :smallamused:

[Delorges]

Great comic!
Love Tarquin's reaction and attitide to the escape. Also nice to know that Enor and Ganji aren't done for. Like it. :smallsmile:

[Yendor]

And Tarquin continues to show how thoroughly petty he is.

His line in panel 7 is garbled: "no one even remembered would have" should be "no one would have even remembered.

[faustin]

And here I was thinking that two strips ago, tarquin has lost most of his fans

It´s not a truly cumpliment to his deeds, but about his intelligence, and about the author´s efforts to make him truly fleshed out and not about another cliche. You cannot help but admire AND hate Tarquin (much like Van Hellsing about Dracula, like he confessed to Mina in the movie).

[The Pilgrim]

Tarquin resembles Mr Burns so much in the last pannel. :smallbiggrin:

Hopefully, we can finally get over the dreadsome bounty hunters and move on to the mail plot.

[SPoD]

So I guess that should allow us to calculate Gannji and Enor's level...

Not exactly, not without knowing how much it would cost to replace the soldiers and gladiator equipment.

But 13th level would give them 35,000 gp each (because they're NPCs), for a total of 70,000 gp, which gives a pretty reasonable margin for the costs mentioned. Any lower than 13th and it's not enough gp earned (remember that the bounty isn't counted in the profit, since that was the empire's to begin with). Much more than 13th, and you have to really start to think the soldiers are pretty expensive to replace.

[Morquard]

I can't help it, I think Tarquin is absolutely insane, and I love it

[Hazelnut]

Victory string FTW!!

I'm glad Enor and Gannji survived - I like the characters and want to see them some more.

Cripes OOTS is brilliant. Looking forward to two new books for my birthday. :smallbiggrin:

[SPoD]

And Tarquin continues to show how thoroughly petty he is.

I think not getting upset that people get away from him is almost the exact opposite of petty.


His line in panel 7 is garbled: "no one even remembered would have" should be "no one would have even remembered.

No, it isn't. The "would have" is referring to the how mad it makes him, not to how they remembered. He's saying, "Not as mad as X would have (made him)," where X = "spending fifty grand on a propaganda event no one remembered".

[1nfinite zer0]

That spear is worth way more than 2 GP. I want it as a souvenir, and will start my bid at 5 GP, any other takers? :smallwink:

[Eleanor_Rigby]

.....And, as I predicted, the events following strip 783 had twists that I hadn't predicted but was happy with ne'ertheless. :smallbiggrin:

Also as expected, Tarquin's still somebody I remember I ought to hate but has a certain terrifying charm that makes it difficult for me to do so. (I still resent the whole evil, evil outset, but he carries things out so well and fiction is boring with antagonists that are dealt with too easily.)

[Psyren]

Did we already figure out their levels for the Geekery thread? It seems to me that knowing the bounty + their WBL should allow us to back into it.

[kierthos]

First and Ganjii almost got that Tyrant's Neck!
Nah, their aim was obviously too high. Besides, Tarquin's got waaaaay too many HPs to be taken out by a single thrown spear.

Now, if they had grazed his magnificent head of hair, that would have been funny (and probably drawn his wrath).

[swethy]

That spear is worth way more than 2 GP. I want it as a souvenir, and will start my bid at 5 GP, any other takers? :smallwink:

I'll raise that to 8 gp, for the spear. Starting at 10 gp for the broken wing bands...:smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

And here I was thinking that two strips ago, tarquin has lost most of his fans.:smallbiggrin:

The Bastard only had to remember us, how much it was Magnificent. :smallcool:

[Croverus]

While I'm personally happy to see it work out this way, if we don't see them in the next 10-20 strips I don't expect us to see them at all for a while. They are antagonists (at least to the OotS) and from what we've seen, most of the OotSs enemies get taken care of if they're minor characters (like so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html)) or simply forgotten about altogether.

[FafnerMorell]

To achieve maximum value for the famous spear, Tarquin & his accountant minion go on to invent an arcane auction system, aBay.

[Gaius Marius]

if Tarquin autograph it first, I rise the price to 20 gp

[fibonacciseries]

OK, many people predicted that A) Enor would fly them out of the arena and B) Gannji would attack Tarquin, but it was still fairly awesome.

[Lurkmoar]

Honestly, if the Giant does bring the bounty hunters back, I'd think they'd fit in fine with the Linear Guild.

I'd prefer they didn't though.

[Kato]

Yay, thanks for the comic, Giant!

I really love tarquin's expression in the last panel, even as a stick figure he totally reminds me of a super villain á la Xanatos: Just as planned!
Anyway, is the spear worth more than 2gp or did the kobold forget to account for the damage they caused to the wall?

[Demonicbunny]

To achieve maximum value for the famous spear, Tarquin & his accountant minion go on to invent an arcane auction system, aBay.

I thought it would be evilBay.

[Me!]

awww critical miss D:

[Ancalagon]

Nice comic.

About Tarquin thinking he has made cash? Remember WHO was in the storage for "Prisoner EQ"?

And you think she'd only snatch Roy's stuff and leave the rest where it was? Suure.

Tarquin is only getting 2 gp from that thrown spear out of this.

[arpin]

Honestly, if the Giant does bring the bounty hunters back, I'd think they'd fit in fine with the Linear Guild.

I'd prefer they didn't though.

To do that, they would need to be equivalent to Durkon, V, or Belkar, which they are not.

[kierthos]

To do that, they would need to be equivalent to Durkon, V, or Belkar, which they are not.
I thought Nale was abandoning the whole "evil opposite necessity" thing.

[Weimann]

I think not getting upset that people get away from him is almost the exact opposite of petty.Yeah, I agree. He shows that he can overlook a minor inconvenience since he benefits in the end anyway. Petty would have been "none may escape the great Tarquin!" and then he'd send the entire guard out to catch them just because. In this case, he didn't care that the prisoners got something, since he didn't lose anything.

[RMS Oceanic]

Honestly, if the Giant does bring the bounty hunters back, I'd think they'd fit in fine with the Linear Guild.

I'd prefer they didn't though.

I dunno if Nale would have them. I wonder if he would have the pragmatism to recruit two reasonably competent dudes who have a grudge against the Order and his Father, but meanwhile neither really fit as an opposite to a specific order member. And maybe they want to stay away from Tarquin and his screwed up family.

[Ancalagon]

But note he's overlooking it only because he can nothing do about it. If he could do something, he would do it.
Maybe not right now (as he might think he gets more from a daring escape) but if he might catch them in some backalley someday... byebye.

[RMS Oceanic]

I thought Nale was abandoning the whole "evil opposite necessity" thing.

When did he say that? I checked his last appearance (#458) and I don't see anything about him abandoning the theme he's got going on.

[hamishspence]

I think it might have been the "I'm sick of deadweight on this team" bit:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html

but that's not so much "abandon the theme" as "interpret it more sensibly"- since Pompey's lack of experience is not the best way to make him an "opposite" to V.

[Rad]

Tarquin is such a great character! I never saw a villain with so much style. I know I'm going to miss him when he'll be gone from the story.
Oh, and I'm glad we haven't seen the last of the bounty hunters either.

[fibonacciseries]

Honestly, if the Giant does bring the bounty hunters back, I'd think they'd fit in fine with the Linear Guild.

I'd prefer they didn't though.

That's an...very intriguing idea.

They do have very similar exits, after all, being imprisoned, and then flying away from a battle which they don't think survivable.

I'm not sure they'd fit, Enor would seem to fill the same role as Thog, that of front-line fighter (though I suppose that they aren't doing the "evil opposites" shtick anymore, so it's not a huge problem), and I'm not sure the personalities are compatible...
After all, the Linear Guild are overtly evil, and the bounty hunter, while not nice people, still don't strike me as the sort of people who would go along with Nale's schemes, especially due to Gannji's mistrust of all mammals. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0738.html)

I'd still like to see it though. All of the problems would only make it more interesting if they were to be forced to work together.

[kierthos]

I think it might have been the "I'm sick of deadweight on this team" bit:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html

but that's not so much "abandon the theme" as "interpret it more sensibly"- since Pompey's lack of experience is not the best way to make him an "opposite" to V.
Ahh... I interpreted that as "abandon the theme" (hence my comment).

We'll just have to wait and see. Pretty sure Nale's not going to be adding another kobold to the team though, considering how the last two turned out.

[Ancalagon]

I have a problem with the Bounty Hunters (BH) joining the LG.

Enor and Gannji make a competent impression and are pragmatic.
A) Why should they join with schmucks as Nale?
The obvious answer is "revenge", of course. But are they so dumb to assume they could overthrow the ruler of a country, and do they assume it's worth it, by joining some madman as Nale (Gannji will need one dialogue with Nale to figure out what a moron/madman he's dealing with)?

Even if we could agree on A) somehow, we come to
B) the BH make a very pragmatic impression. 70k in items is not risking death - and vengeance does not feed you while providing lots of opportunity to run into sharp things.

The idea is intriguing - but right now I fail to see a believable reason why Enor and Gannji should join with the Linear Guild. The only reason could be they go together after Tarquin but even that would require more dumbness of them than they (well, the smart half of "them") have shown so far.

[iTookUrNick]

I am among those who thought the bounty hunters story would have ended better with their dramatic demise.

However, the last panel, although Tarquin's level of emotional involvment changes somewhat abruptly from the rest of the strip, makes up for everything else.

+1 for "will become a classic"

[Dark Matter]

Uh-oh! What will Tarquin do to Enor and Ganji? I mean, they just attacked him!Maybe nothing. He doesn't want to build them up into the heroes which eventually unseat him.

[Zolem]

Even if the spear had hit the mark, with the price of a res, Tarquin would still have been in the black. :smallamused:

Dude, even if it had CRITED Tarquin it would have done, what, about 15 damage tops? He probably got more HP than that by level 2! This isn't the real world where one lucky or skilled shot can kill somebody, it's a world where a spear to the face does less damage than a great-ax to the toe.

[Lupusater]

Tarquin, you magnificent bastard. Why is it that two strips after declaring my eternal hatred for you, you STILL manage to win me over?

[Lvl45DM!]

Dude, even if it had CRITED Tarquin it would have done, what, about 15 damage tops? He probably got more HP than that by level 2! This isn't the real world where one lucky or skilled shot can kill somebody, it's a world where a spear to the face does less damage than a great-ax to the toe.

Ah but Rich had a gobbo one shot a dragon didn't he? so he's obviously playing by the 3x twenty is an auto kill rule. Gannji had a 1 in 8000 chance of killing Tarquin, well worth 2 gp

Edit: BAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! LOOK AT HIS FACE IN THE LAST PANEL! THAT FRIGGING HILARIOUS!

[Sengoku]

Loooooool :smallbiggrin:, I love Tarquin

[Chaelos]

I can't help it--I love Tarquin, against everything my better judgment tells me.

[Sylthia]

Loved it. Pragmatism at its best.

Lose a bit of honor vs. Money and keeping the populace happy

[Welf]

Tarquin: :smallbiggrin:
Best non-insane villain ever.

[Grogmir]

reminds me of a history book I read that said 'Every oppresive regime has an 'out'

In roman times it was escaping to a free town for a year.
In modern times its called the national lottery.

obviously in the Empire of Blood its being picked for the gladitorial Pit and fighting your way out. Probably about the same odds I would say!

I'm loving the Arc, but I am starting to think :mitd: 'Gate? What gate?'

[Lord Herman]

I love Tarquin! ^.^

[SteveMB]

I think not getting upset that people get away from him is almost the exact opposite of petty.

I suppose one could see his "meh, they're not worthy of my concern" attitude as petty in a way, but not in the usual petty-tyrant way.

[paddyfool]

Not exactly, not without knowing how much it would cost to replace the soldiers and gladiator equipment.

But 13th level would give them 35,000 gp each (because they're NPCs), for a total of 70,000 gp, which gives a pretty reasonable margin for the costs mentioned. Any lower than 13th and it's not enough gp earned (remember that the bounty isn't counted in the profit, since that was the empire's to begin with). Much more than 13th, and you have to really start to think the soldiers are pretty expensive to replace.

You left out the 12,000 gp bounty. Although that would still require about 29,000 gp each, so they would still appear to be higher level than was generally reckoned. Unless, of course, they're on the PC WBL scale for some reason, or alternatively Kilkil was including the 50,000 gp price tag of the games in the benefits from this capture (as the bounty hunters had made them entertaining, and thus worthwhile), in which case it's a mere 4,000 gp each.

[Rastaban]

I love Tarquin! ^.^

He is such a great villain, my favorite, the magnificent type!

[Killer Angel]

While I'm personally happy to see it work out this way, if we don't see them in the next 10-20 strips I don't expect us to see them at all for a while. They are antagonists (at least to the OotS) and from what we've seen, most of the OotSs enemies get taken care of if they're minor characters (like so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html)) or simply forgotten about altogether.

Agree. This could well be their latest strip... we care for 'em, they're safe, we're happy, now it's time to go back on the Quest.


I suppose one could see his "meh, they're not worthy of my concern" attitude as petty in a way, but not in the usual petty-tyrant way.

Whoa!
It was a long time I didn't see you post... welcome back! :smallsmile:

[Squark]

That... Was... Awesome.

[random11]

The best part about Tarquin is that I can't really understand or predict how he thinks.

Did he react this way because he honestly doesn't care?
Was it because it's not worth the time, money and effort?
Maybe because he finally understood how Elan thinks, so he pretends not to care only so he can later arrange assassins to look for them?

All options are valid and non of them really conflicts with his actions so far, and that chaotic* behavior is just good*!
--

* Just to be clear, no connection between the words "chaotic" and "good" to the alignment system... :smallcool:

[Agi Hammerthief]

Cool strip

I'm glad their escape wasn't updated last Friday :smallwink:

[Phishfood]

Ah, its so how I play every RPG ever. Scoop every item that isn't nailed down and sell. Be disappointed with gold, repeat.

[Llelldorin]

Loved it. Pragmatism at its best.

Lose a bit of honor vs. Money and keeping the populace happy

Better yet: he didn't even lose that much honor. Ignoring a spear because you can see that it's going to hit a foot over your head, to the average (non-heroic) citizen, simply makes you a badass.

[Toper]

I love Tarquin's expression in the last panel, and him rubbing his hands together evilly.

[Icedaemon]

I was of the camp who never hated Tarquin (what did you expect an antagonist to do?), which means that this strip gave me a great big grin.


Maybe nothing. He doesn't want to build them up into the heroes which eventually unseat him.

Ooh, I didn't even think of that.

Also, I would increase the bid on that spear to 25 gp, again assuming it's signed.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Lol, I love Tarquin!

Thanks Giant! :smallwink:

[Dziadek]

We all saw before how Protection From Arrows spell looks like, so we can safely assume, that it's not the spell that's protecting Tarquin.

... anyone else have a feeling, that Tarquin has an invisible body-guard (or rather a meat shield) who just got stabbed, by Enors spear?

[Turalisj]

Heh... Tarquin, you greedy SOB....

Somehow, he makes me think of what an evil child of Haley and Elan would be like. :smalleek:

[Recurve]

Tarquin's accounting of his profit does not seem sound to me:

He paid Gannji and Enor a bounty to capture and return Nale.

They brought him Elan, so they never deserved the bounty in the first place.

He had them arrested, thrown in prison, and reclaimed the bounty he had paid them for capturing the wrong guy anyway.

So Tarquin still doesn't have Nale, which was his objective, but he recovered the bounty, so that's a wash to him financially, which leaves him up Gannji and Enor's seized possessions (WBL), but down the cost of all those dead soldiers and the rest of the parade and games, the latter of which I would guess is higher, which very likely leaves him in the red, not the black.

The best we can say is that Tarquin would have held the games anyway (although would he have had as many dead guards?) and that Gannji and Enor's WBL helped recoup some of that inevitable cost.

And I can't believe someone as presumably smart as Tarquin would believe that creating new, sworn enemies and then allowing them free will earn him or the Empire more in the long-run than killing them or keeping them prisoner (see Evil Overlord Rules 3, 4, and 38), since they will now likely seek sabotage or vengeance on him or the Empire rather than being eaten by worms, as they would have had they not escaped.

He has been a pretty good MB until now, but his reasoning in 785 seems more like "Optimistic Pollyanna" territory.

(I love OOTS! Just disagreeing with the general flow of this thread regarding Tarquin.)

[Jay R]

To those of you who think Enor and Gannji might join the Linear Guild: do you remember why they were arrested? For bringing in the wrong twin. If they meet Nale, they will either try to bring him in or kill him out of annoyance.

In either case, I can't imagine wanting to work with him after that.

[Jay R]

Elan, just stop trying - you will never understand Tarquin without an explanation. You don't understand evil, and you can't understand intelligence.

[Zea mays]

We all saw before how Protection From Arrows spell looks like, so we can safely assume, that it's not the spell that's protecting Tarquin.

... anyone else have a feeling, that Tarquin has an invisible body-guard (or rather a meat shield) who just got stabbed, by Enors spear?

If such a person existed, Kilkil would have included him in his correction to the loss/gain calculations, no?

Could never have predicted Tarquin's attitude to the escape, and yet it's completely consistent with his established character.
*salutes Giant*

[factotum]

You left out the 12,000 gp bounty.

:smallconfused: He quite clearly said that the bounty wasn't included because it was the Empire's money to start with, so therefore wasn't included in the profit. You can disagree with him on that point, sure, but the way you phrased it suggests that's not what you were doing...

[1nfinite zer0]

I'll raise that to 8 gp, for the spear. Starting at 10 gp for the broken wing bands...:smallbiggrin:


if Tarquin autograph it first, I rise the price to 20 gp

11 without autograph, and 26gp if autographed!

[warmachine]

The question is: do Gannji and Enor count as adventurers, so that they'll easily acquire level appropriate equipment rather than having to work for it? Does Drama govern their lives or just standard logic?

[Hawkfrost000]

I love the 300 reference

To Ganji, the Lizardfolk who (almost) made a tyrant bleed!

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

So they escaped to become recurring antagonist? Just what this comic needs more of. :smalltongue:

[Forum Explorer]

I love the comic and excepically the last panal. The expression on Tarquin's face + Elan's reaction = priceless :smallbiggrin:

[Speedball]

Jeez, I don't know what's scarier, Tarquin organizing the murdering people with a bland expression on his face and saying he doesn't understand why people object to it, or Tarquin actively gloating for once. It's like when Mike finally smiled in Shortpacked---creepy.

[Skaven]

Thank you Rich, you made my day ^_^

[Sarco_Phage]

He may be a rancid murderous bastard, but at least he runs a tight ship.

He still needs to die in a horrible and preferably ridiculous fashion for the whole slave message thing, but eh, it can wait.

[Amarsir]

The "would have" is referring to the how mad it makes him, not to how they remembered. He's saying, "Not as mad as X would have (made him)," where X = "spending fifty grand on a propaganda event no one remembered".
You're right, but it's a bit of an awkward read. If The Giant is up to a change (and no reason why he needs to) I'd recommend present tense:

"Not as mad as spending fifty grand on a propaganda event that no one even remembers would have".

or use an adjective instead of a prepositional phrase:

"Not as mad as spending fifty grand on a forgettable propaganda event would have".

I only say this because when you have intertwining dialogue, a bubble between panels, and mostly-vertical text, simplifying phrasing for the reader is a good thing.

[Vectner]

I love the totally EVIL GRIN that Tarquin gives in the last panel. I can almost hear the MR. Burns voice come out of him.

[Sarco_Phage]

The question is: do Gannji and Enor count as adventurers, so that they'll easily acquire level appropriate equipment rather than having to work for it? Does Drama govern their lives or just standard logic?

If the wealth by levels rules apply to them, they're probably PCs, or at the very least an NPC adventurer party.

[H Birchgrove]

To those of you who think Enor and Gannji might join the Linear Guild: do you remember why they were arrested? For bringing in the wrong twin. If they meet Nale, they will either try to bring him in or kill him out of annoyance.

In either case, I can't imagine wanting to work with him after that.

You know, this makes me wish Enor and Gannji returns to the strip next time The Linear Guild shows up.

[Elfey]

Even if the spear had hit the mark, with the price of a res, Tarquin would still have been in the black. :smallamused:

Damn. Good point. Even if he dies, he wins. And say he dies, makes it memorable right? Oh, but then he just pops back up and it makes the people feel hopeless.

Tarquin always wins.

[Neopolis]

Well, every little bit helps, even if it's just an ordinary steel spear...

[gooddragon1]

Doesn't he mean 66,436 gp? Because you can only sell it back for half.

[Andre]

Eh, I doubt that spear had enough range increment to even get that close to Tarquin, let alone hit him even with a natural 20. Again, comic over rules... and it's perfectly fine for me.

Socio-Economic note - Closing the hole caused by the spear definitely costs more than 2 GP but slaves do tend to work for free. Whee.

[Shoelessgdowar]

You left out the 12,000 gp bounty. Although that would still require about 29,000 gp each, so they would still appear to be higher level than was generally reckoned. Unless, of course, they're on the PC WBL scale for some reason, or alternatively Kilkil was including the 50,000 gp price tag of the games in the benefits from this capture (as the bounty hunters had made them entertaining, and thus worthwhile), in which case it's a mere 4,000 gp each.

:smallconfused: He quite clearly said that the bounty wasn't included because it was the Empire's money to start with, so therefore wasn't included in the profit. You can disagree with him on that point, sure, but the way you phrased it suggests that's not what you were doing...

Actually, as factotum mentioned, the 12k bounty was included, but what you are missing is they said they made a TOTAL Profit(Net Profit) of 66,437 Gold. That is after subtracting the 50k for the games, plus we can guess some 3563gp(3565gp before the spear was thrown) for guards and gladiator equipment.



Nice comic.

About Tarquin thinking he has made cash? Remember WHO was in the storage for "Prisoner EQ"?

And you think she'd only snatch Roy's stuff and leave the rest where it was? Suure.

Tarquin is only getting 2 gp from that thrown spear out of this.

That is for their equipment (swords, armor, clothing, maybe backpacks, bags, ladders, waterskins, and other cheap stuff that is basic equipment; maybe rods, wands, robes, staves and scrolls from spellcasters... but unlikely with those), which Haley may or may not have taken, but they wouldn't store their wealth (Gold, silver, gems, platinum, obvious magical items that aren't weapons or armor, cause as I stated, the magic casting gear is less likely to be kept around), that would go to a treasury or Tarquin's private Vault elsewhere. The only reason to keep weapons/armor of the the gladiators around is so when they need to up the drama in later weeks when the gladiator is still around, they give them their own gear so they can claim they have their familiar stuff and if it is magical they can hype the pathos of 'Magic Space Rock Sword' and '+5 Armor of Axe Repelling' to make it sound more awesome. Wealth is Tarquin's, this isn't the real world where when you survive the Arena for 6 months or a Year you get to walk away with everything you can in, a slap on the back, and a 'Keep your nose clean this time' (If you need proof, 'Red' and Geoff have been there for more then 6 months, they're not getting their stuff back). And Kilkil wouldn't calculate in an unknown variable like stuff in Gladiator EQ Storage (since Haley is now in the Arena sitting only 2 seats from Tarquin), so that is the actual net profit (until Haley steals it later, which will only make Tarquin Happy because it will mean he knows his son has a girlfriend skilled enough to aid his son in overthrowing him).

[snikrept]

Flying away heavily damaged while shouting threats is pretty much guaranteed entry into Recurring Character status.

Still holding out hope that these guys are the eventual replacements for Belkar.

[Sarco_Phage]

Elan, just stop trying - you will never understand Tarquin without an explanation. You don't understand evil, and you can't understand intelligence.

I consider both those traits points in his favor.


Still holding out hope that these guys are the eventual replacements for Belkar.

I'm with you on that one.

[Lix Lorn]

Flying away heavily damaged while shouting threats is pretty much guaranteed entry into Recurring Character status.

Still holding out hope that these guys are the eventual replacements for Belkar.
...I could go for that, and I even like Belkar.

[Zmflavius]

Sorry, I had to ask (non DND player here)

What does WBL mean?

[Asis]

You have my vote too, snikrept.

Good comic: the good? guys escape and the vilian will not pursue: good news althogheter.
Although the title made me remember Crisis Core's ending and I felt a bit sad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOJ91H4mraU

[Lix Lorn]

Sorry, I had to ask (non DND player here)

What does WBL mean?
Wealth By Level. Standard money for a starting character of that level.

[Sarco_Phage]

Sorry, I had to ask (non DND player here)

What does WBL mean?

Wealth by level. Basically there's a certain benchmark of wealth/gear characters generated at a certain level start with, so a ~10th level character like Enor and Gannji might be would have [x] amount of gold or possessions worth.

[Aerysil]

I want an invisible shield of spear stickage.

... or did it just hit the wall behind him?

Curse you 2D graphics lacking perspective!

[Volthawk]

I want an invisible shield of spear stickage.

Um, Gannji missed, and the spear went in the wall above Tarquin (gotta admit, I first saw it as protection from arrows or something, but after looking again, I saw that it just went it the wall)

[Doug Lampert]

Doesn't he mean 66,436 gp? Because you can only sell it back for half.

So? Why would they sell it? You think this is the last time they'll ever arm a gladiator with a spear? Getting it back REMOVES the cost of replacing the spear, they need spears to arm gladiators, and replacement spears are purchased at full value.

[xingbing1]

Non DnD player here, so what level would an NPC with 60,000 gp have? 'cos that's what I reckon their level to be:

-50,000 is the cost of the games
66,435 is their profit.

So they had 116,435 after taking away the cost of guards and equipment. Round that to ~120,000 to include the cost of guards and equipment, and that should be 60,000 each.

Assuming:
-they took the cost of the games into account with the maths
-'times two' means they're counting both enor and ganji once (one each, total two), not counting both of them twice (twice each, total four)
-It cost ~3,500 for the guards and equipment
But all of those seem reasonable to me.

[paddyfool]

:smallconfused: He quite clearly said that the bounty wasn't included because it was the Empire's money to start with, so therefore wasn't included in the profit. You can disagree with him on that point, sure, but the way you phrased it suggests that's not what you were doing...

What Shoeless said.


Actually, as factotum mentioned, the 12k bounty was included, but what you are missing is they said they made a TOTAL Profit(Net Profit) of 66,437 Gold. That is after subtracting the 50k for the games, plus we can guess some 3563gp(3565gp before the spear was thrown) for guards and gladiator equipment.


The games weren't held because the bounty hunters were captured, so IMHO the cost of the games (which would have happened anyway) shouldn't be deducted from the profits from their capture (other than any costs that were accrued specifically from the bounty hunters' participation, such as the carnage wreaked by the Allosaurus).


Doesn't he mean 66,436 gp? Because you can only sell it back for half.

Except that the full cost of the spear (2gp) would have previously been deducted as gladiatorial supplies carried off by Enor & Ganji. You get it back, and you no longer have to deduct the cost, since some other luckless gladiator can always be issued it at a future event.

[ArqArturo]

See, this is why I don't like Accounting, it lets you down to the path of evil, gp by gp.

Architecture, on the other hand, does not. Architecture is your friend :).

[TLMonkey]

And that's why you should always have a good insurance policy! Really, when they first appeared, I'd have never imagined Gannji and Enor would be given as much importance as they have... And I'm ashamed for asking this question, but what's a WBL? I'm sorry, I've never played D&D as much as I'd have wanted...

[KingFlameHawk]

I think it was said before but there is a grammer mistake in panel 7. Tarquin says "that no one even remembered would have", it should read "no one would have even remembered.

[Inferno232]

The profit from pawning that crappy spear shall be their downfall! MUAHAHAHA!

[theNater]

Eh, I doubt that spear had enough range increment to even get that close to Tarquin, let alone hit him even with a natural 20. Again, comic over rules... and it's perfectly fine for me.
Range increment on a spear is 20 feet, maximum range for a thrown weapon is 5 increments, so that's 100 feet. Do we know how big the arena is?

Socio-Economic note - Closing the hole caused by the spear definitely costs more than 2 GP but slaves do tend to work for free. Whee.
I would assume repairs to the arena would be done after every event, and as such would be counted in the costs of the games. Having an agreement with whoever does the repairs which specifies a fixed price for all necessary repairs would make planning easier, so it might be something they've done.

[ricorum]

This page made me laugh so much. Well done again for a hilarious/awesome/kinda heartwarming strip!

Agreed. This was great.

[Sarco_Phage]

Hey, we can extrapolate Enor and Gannji's level more accurately now. I just realized.

[the_tick_rules]

I think that aide is using mathamancy, hooray cross-over jokes.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think they're more likely to join the OOTS than they are the Linear Guild. Nale is more demanding than Roy, plus was raised by Tarquin.

But I can see them joining Ivy's resistance.Only for it to turn out Tarquin controls that as well.

[Holy_Knight]

Ha! Loved the last panel. :)

[rekuu]

I may not be Tarquin's biggest fan, but that was awesome. Seriously.

[IlliadAndOddity]

I love this guy. Why does he not have his own TV show?!

[xelliea]

That spear is worth way more than 2 GP. I want it as a souvenir, and will start my bid at 5 GP, any other takers? :smallwink:

No one said it was only worth 2Gp, he only got 2Gp profit, the spear might be worth 12Gp but it will cost 10Gp to repair the wall.

[Valley]

So....victory string works? :smallsmile:

[Ron Miel]

I am looking forward to an Enor Gannji escape story arc
does anybody else think that these guys will become main characters?

I've always though so, from early in their arc. Back then I predicted that Tarquin would offer them a large reward if they helped Elan on his mission. Now my prediction is ...

They will end up ruling the Empire, make an alliance with neighbouring kingdoms, and bring a golden age of peace and prosperity to the continent

[NegativeFifteen]

Well, I'm backing to thinking of Tarquin is a boss. Evil, but a boss.

[Icedaemon]

Doesn't he mean 66,436 gp? Because you can only sell it back for half.

Adventurers and other idiots sell it back for half. A ruler can, for one, simply hand the spear to a newly conscripted guard, have the state-funded merchants place it in their shops to sell off to some bugger at full price or even put it up for an auction as a trumpeted up memorabilia of this fight and possibly make even more money.

(26 gold, 5 silver, if autographed)

[LtNOWIS]

I suppose one could see his "meh, they're not worthy of my concern" attitude as petty in a way, but not in the usual petty-tyrant way.
Petty is caring too much about personal slights or other trivialities. What you have described is the opposite of pettiness.

[Red XIV]

So Tarquin still doesn't have Nale, which was his objective, but he recovered the bounty, so that's a wash to him financially, which leaves him up Gannji and Enor's seized possessions (WBL), but down the cost of all those dead soldiers and the rest of the parade and games, the latter of which I would guess is higher, which very likely leaves him in the red, not the black.
You're probably overestimating the cost of those dead soldiers. They're probably 1st-level warriors. Needing to spend the time and money to replace them is an annoyance, nothing more. And not having Nale? The most current info Tarquin has is that Nale died at Azure City.

[darlingg]

You're right, but it's a bit of an awkward read. If The Giant is up to a change (and no reason why he needs to) I'd recommend present tense:

"Not as mad as spending fifty grand on a propaganda event that no one even remembers would have".

or use an adjective instead of a prepositional phrase:

"Not as mad as spending fifty grand on a forgettable propaganda event would have".

I only say this because when you have intertwining dialogue, a bubble between panels, and mostly-vertical text, simplifying phrasing for the reader is a good thing.

What about "Sure, but not as mad as would have spending fifty grand on a propaganda event that no one even remembered."

[recluso]

Personally, I think Tarquin and KilKil are not completely on the same frequency.
KilKil is very petty with his calculations.

I think Tarquin is only happy because his games are getting more interesting. The value of "A spear only just misses Tarquin" is much more than 2 gold.

Tarquin might also enjoy the thought that, due to the flight, but also the spear, the public will remember Gannji and Enor, so their death will be more remarkable.

In one of the first panels in 786 Tarquin will order G&E to be hunted down; Tarquin already trusts that hunt to be succesfull.

[St Fan]

See, this is why I don't like Accounting, it lets you down to the path of evil, gp by gp.

Architecture, on the other hand, does not. Architecture is your friend :).

Wrong, architecture can be Evil too (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MalevolentArchitecture).

It can also be Chaotic. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Bizarrchitecture)

[factotum]

I think it was said before but there is a grammer mistake in panel 7. Tarquin says "that no one even remembered would have", it should read "no one would have even remembered.

Yes, it was said before, and it was wrong then too. Tarquin is saying that spending fifty grand on a propaganda event nobody remembered would make him more angry than the two gladiators escaping. It makes perfect sense either way round.

[Taekwondodo]

*wipes brow* Phew, with that title I didn't think they were going to make it but yay! They did! :smallbiggrin:

Also Tarquin has gone up a bit in my estimations. It's not that I don't hate him as much as I did, I just respect him a little more.

[MoonCat]

Sheesh! Is there like NO way to beat this guy?

[Sarco_Phage]

Sheesh! Is there like NO way to beat this guy?

Cue "Is Tarquin a Villain Sue?" threads. :smallamused:

[faustin]

Sheesh! Is there like NO way to beat this guy?

Are you kidding me? Tarquin was surely the one who organized "The Ultimate Showdown Of Ultimate Destiny" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Nqguav6nE) in order to make profit and eliminate any possible rival.:smallbiggrin:

[Detrinex]

I think that Gannji and Enor will meet Nale, Sabine, and Thog. All they'd need now is a spellcaster.

[Sarco_Phage]

Are you kidding me? Tarquin was surely the one who organized "The Ultimate Showdown Of Ultimate Destiny" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Nqguav6nE) in order to make profit and eliminate any possible rival.:smallbiggrin:

Are we really going to do this thing where we build someone like as Chuck Norris again? Because O-Chul is already way more than enough.

[SnowballMan]

No one said it was only worth 2Gp, he only got 2Gp profit, the spear might be worth 12Gp but it will cost 10Gp to repair the wall.
The equipment list has a two handed spear costing 2gp, which is probably the basis for the joke. Also, I would think that wall could be fixed with a simple mending spell. What else are you going to use those 0 level spells on when you are not adventuring?

[KoboldRevenge]

The good guys escaping should always make the villan money!:smallsmile:

[nonamearisto]

I guess the action will shift to Roy now. The #2 and #3 fighters have left the ring (although they are unarmed and badly armored so they might be easily re-caught), so it may shift to Roy and the champion fighter/Girard/Thog/only Rich knows right now.

[Morph Bark]

I wonder if those numbers work out as precisely as they should and how long the Giant spent time finding that out. :smalltongue:

[Nidogg]

I for one thought it was awesome and also noticed the jedi mind trick of "remembered would have" still, Tarquin is awesome... o

[Cerlis]

That spear is worth way more than 2 GP. I want it as a souvenir, and will start my bid at 5 GP, any other takers? :smallwink:

thats a good point. im sure Tarquinn could get a small fortune if he auctioned off the Spear the escaped gladiator used to almost kill him. its famous!

[Sarco_Phage]

I for one thought it was awesome and also noticed the jedi mind trick of "remembered would have" still, Tarquin is awesome... o

What? It's a perfectly grammatical response to Elan's previous statement in the conversation, omitting the words "made me" after "would have".

[Ted The Bug]

Really liked this one! Really in character, and not at all forced or stretched.

[Fluke_Bandywag]

To reiterate:

The grammar in panel 7 is fine.

And as for the math, the little orange guy lays it out nicely:

WBL (unknown) x 2 - gladiator equipment - cost to replace guards = 66,437 gp profit.

So...

66,437 gp - 50,000 gp (stated cost of games) = 16,437 gp total profit for the Empire.

Not a fortune by any means, but nothin' to sneeze at. Profit!

[Asthix]

I've said it before. Truly, Tarquin is inscrutable.

[ShippoWildheart]

So glad to see the two escape, and dang it Tarquin how dare you make me like you again! :smallamused:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ah but Rich had a gobbo one shot a dragon didn't he? so he's obviously playing by the 3x twenty is an auto kill rule. Gannji had a 1 in 8000 chance of killing Tarquin, well worth 2 gp


What? when did a Goblin one-shot a dragon? :smallconfused:


Having said that, this strip is awesome.

[Jooky]

I wish Tarquin was my dad.

[Sarco_Phage]

I wonder how Tarquin likes the feel of those leather pants everyone insists on putting him in.

[SteveMB]

Whoa!
It was a long time I didn't see you post... welcome back! :smallsmile:

Thanks. I've been a bit busy.


What? when did a Goblin one-shot a dragon? :smallconfused:

IIRC, it was in one of the bonus strips in the print volumes, providing a bit more detail of the process of Xykon retaking his tower (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html).

[Jay R]

Anyway, is the spear worth more than 2gp or did the kobold forget to account for the damage they caused to the wall?

The spear is worth 2 gp, according to the D&D price lists. I assume he doesn't include the cost of fixing the wall because there is no reason to fix the wall. This is a gladiator stadium -- weapon damage is ambiance.

[Blaznak]

I keep expecting to see someone toss out the immortal words "Winning! Duh!"

[Kairamek]

My word. Tarquin may be the best villian I have ever seen. He plays at so many levels. He spins every occurance so he somehow wins. Amazing.

[ericgrau]

Gladiator equipment and soldiers don't cost much, certainly not 20,000 gp anyway. I think they're 13th level. 14th+12th is also possible, but less likely. Other level combinations adding up to a bit over 66k put the pair way too far apart in level to be plausible. The people in that stats thread should be having a field day with this.

[Asarlai]

Interesting strip, definitely a different tone from recently. I enjoyed it.

[Messenger]

I've been wondering if the storyline would have been better had Enor and Gannji died rather than escaped- but screw that. I agree with Roy that they're jackasses, but I'm glad to be cheering for them now. :smallsmile:

As for Tarquin- he's a thoroughly practical villain, and the rare instances where he's petty, he's not petty in a small, childish way. He's a well-constructed villain you can really take seriously. :smallamused:

That said, I look forward to the day he faces justice- hopefully violently and finally. :smallmad:

[factotum]

Gladiator equipment and soldiers don't cost much, certainly not 20,000 gp anyway. I think they're 13th level. 14th+12th is also possible, but less likely.

The Chancellor quoted "the WBL for an NPC of their level, times two". That implies strongly that they're both the same level--the statement wouldn't make sense otherwise.

[RickDaily12]

Heh. You don't often find that many completely optimistic types like Tarquin. If he wasn't completely evil with it, I'd actually admire him as a role model. Ah well. Can't find any character that's 100% perfect, I guess.:smalltongue:

[Nimrod's Son]

What? when did a Goblin one-shot a dragon? :smallconfused:
It was a hobgoblin, but it happened in NCftPB. It's explains why there's a dead dragon in the first panel of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) strip (later to be zombified and ridden into battle by Xykon, of course).

[Tobimaro]

And this comic shows why I as a D&D player do not like thrown weapons. Ganji at least had a spear which they could have used in the escape if opposition came their way. Now, they do not have a weapon to use to defend themselves unless they are counted as having claws (not sure but it is possible). Defiant gestures are nice, but I'd prefer to have a weapon, suboptimal it may be.

[Volthawk]

And this comic shows why I as a D&D player do not like thrown weapons. Ganji at least had a spear which they could have used in the escape if opposition came their way. Now, they do not have a weapon to use to defend themselves unless they are counted as having claws (not sure but it is possible). Defiant gestures are nice, but I'd prefer to have a weapon, suboptimal it may be.

Well, the pair aren't completely defenceless. Both Enor and Gannji have claws and a bite (admittedly, Gannji's are pretty weak, but Enor's are pretty decent).

[Jay R]

And this comic shows why I as a D&D player do not like thrown weapons. Ganji at least had a spear which they could have used in the escape if opposition came their way. Now, they do not have a weapon to use to defend themselves unless they are counted as having claws (not sure but it is possible). Defiant gestures are nice, but I'd prefer to have a weapon, suboptimal it may be.

Oh, I expect they'll come up with something (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0729.html), Sparky.

[suszterpatt]

Just a minor art nitpick: in the second last panel, Elan's arm seems to be missing, and we should probably be seeing his right eye too.

[Skull the Troll]

I love Gannji's line about 'the big carnivorous beast." A nice homage to those good roleplayers that actually think about if their characters would know anything about a monster before blindly reciting the entire monster manual entry on them.

[pendell]

Wait wait wait ...

How does Tarquin make a 2GP profit on the spear? It originally belonged to the guards or was arena equipment provided to the gladiators, wasn't it? He doesn't gain anything by getting his own spear back.

Won't it cost GP to replace the wall?

And what about all those crossbow bolts that were fired? He just fired quite a few silver pieces into the arena, and all the material was wasted.

:smalltongue:

Anyways, great strip and I LOVED the last two panels.

Sooo... anyone up for a game of Apartments & Accountants :smallsigh:?

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Kish]

Wait wait wait ...

How does Tarquin make a 2GP profit on the spear? It originally belonged to the guards or was arena equipment provided to the gladiators, wasn't it? He doesn't gain anything by getting his own spear back.
Kilkil calculated the loss, including the spear, and the gain, and told Tarquin the net profit.

Then the loss was decreased by the spear, adding 2 GP to the net profit.

[DracoDei]

The Bastard only had to remember us, how much it was Magnificent. :smallcool:
This may have already been asked, but what is this phrase a play off of?

[swethy]

11 without autograph, and 26gp if autographed!

I see that and raise to 13 w/out,28 w!:smallbiggrin:

[Jimorian]

This may have already been asked, but what is this phrase a play off of?

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJXKVOxqkWM), which has been broadened into a TVTrope.

[Collen]

I wonder how many times a prisoner has escaped before. If Tarquin lowered security during matches, he could earn a fortune.

[Valley]

They would make more money if they rented out space on the inside walls for ads.

What? Just thinking about the bottom line folks!

Sport's drinks, sport's gear, health coverage...

[Anxe]

Just a minor art nitpick: in the second last panel, Elan's arm seems to be missing, and we should probably be seeing his right eye too.

This post seemed like it might be missed in all the other posts. I hope the Giant sees it. Or this copy of it.

[Burner28]

I wonder how Tarquin likes the feel of those leather pants everyone insists on putting him in.

Are you kidding me? He has lost it mostly

[Valley]

I have to say that Tarquin reminds me slightly of O'Brien from 1984 - but unlike members of the Inner Party he does not need the tool of Double Think to do what he does - he is truly happy with being Evil, understands he is Evil, and carries out his actions with the knowledge that power is gained for power. In some ways that makes him even more interesting and horrible than O'Brien. Wow, Rich Burlew ia good at this.

[Sarco_Phage]

Are you kidding me? He has lost it mostly

The fact that he still has 'em in the first place even after the slave thing is disturbing.

[Icedaemon]

They would make more money if they rented out space on the inside walls for ads.

What? Just thinking about the bottom line folks!

Sport's drinks, sport's gear, health coverage...

You mean 'water, gladiator armour, thugs asking for protection money'?

[faustin]

I feel sorry for Elan. He is forced to contemplate all the atrocities committed by his father (several of them in his "honor" ) and to feel hopeless to stop him. :smallfrown:

[Burner28]

The fact that he still has 'em in the first place even after the slave thing is disturbing.

On that subject made no sense in the first place for him to have it. Then again the concept itself doesn't make any sense at all, so...

[Boogastreehouse]

Sooo... anyone up for a game of Apartments & Accountants :smallsigh:?


Heh. Anyone who had the AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide in the early 80's can tell you that that game already exists:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_iBDQOXCHTEU/S7-zQt9R-8I/AAAAAAAAAm8/5RRv8funzMo/s1600/papers+paychecks+paycheques+pay+cheques+will+mclea n+dmg+dungeons+dragons+cartoon.JPG


(Not that I'm old enough to have had the AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide in the early 80's, of course...)

[Amridell]

...Did anyone else notice that Elan has no arms in the second to last panel?

[Sarco_Phage]

Yeah, some other dude noticed it and also the fact that he is missing his right eye, which should at least be partially visible.

Really though it's not the kind of thing you'll notice on the first look.

[suszterpatt]

...Did anyone else notice that Elan has no arms in the second to last panel?
Why, yes... yes, I did. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10725384#post10725384)

[Warren Dew]

Just a minor art nitpick: in the second last panel, Elan's arm seems to be missing, and we should probably be seeing his right eye too.
Comparing frame 11 to frame 6, I don't think the eye should be visible. The arm, yes.

[Tanngrisnir]

Comparing frame 11 to frame 6, I don't think the eye should be visible. The arm, yes.

The eye tends to sit pretty squarely below the part in Elan's hair. Given that, at least part of it should be visible in 11.

[Warren Dew]

The eye tends to sit pretty squarely below the part in Elan's hair. Given that, at least part of it should be visible in 11.
Did you actually look at the frames in question?

In both frames, Elan is looking up, which changes where the eyes should be.

[Tanngrisnir]

Did you actually look at the frames in question?

In both frames, Elan is looking up, which changes where the eyes should be.

I did. I then also looked at frame 7 and frame 9 where Elan is looking sideways and his eye is in the exact same position: squarely below his hair part. I then looked at Tarquin, who shares Elan's hairstyle, and his eye is also squarely below his hair part, both while looking up in frame 6 and in frame 11 and while looking sideways in frames 7, 9 and 12.

Looking up does not change the eye position relative to the hair parting, and so we should still see a bit of Elan's eye in 11.

[Warren Dew]

Your eye is fooling you.

In Frame 11, Tarquin's part is vertically over his right shoulder pad. Tarquin's right eye is vertically over his breastplate. They are not vertically aligned; they're aligned according to the relative vertical of his face, which is tilted when he is looking up.

If you can't see that, I give up, though at least others will be able to tell what I'm talking about.

[Sarco_Phage]

I think my eye is fooling me, I don't see it either.

[Tanngrisnir]

Your eye is fooling you.

In Frame 11, Tarquin's part is vertically over his right shoulder pad. Tarquin's right eye is vertically over his breastplate. They are not vertically aligned; they're aligned according to the relative vertical of his face, which is tilted when he is looking up.

If you can't see that, I give up, though at least others will be able to tell what I'm talking about.

My apologies, I thought you would be able to follow what I had said.


. . . Looking up does not change the eye position relative to the hair parting . . .

His eye stays in the same place relative to his part, just as I said it does. This means that when he moves his head, the eye-hair part relationship stays the same. This means that, with his head tilted up, the eye would have moved but it would still be in the same place relative to his hair part. In panel 11 the place the eye would have moved to is visible.

Again, just to be clear, I didn't say his eye doesn't move, I said it stays in the same place relative to the part in hair.

I will ensure to spell things out more when talking to you in the future to avoid further confusion.

[Roderick_BR]

So we know that Tarquin is really evil: He's captalist. :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, being genresavvy seems to pay well.

[Warren Dew]

His eye stays in the same place relative to his part, just as I said it does. This means that when he moves his head, the eye-hair part relationship stays the same. This means that, with his head tilted up, the eye would have moved but it would still be in the same place relative to his hair part. In panel 11 the place the eye would have moved to is visible.
In panel 6, the eye is vertically underneath the longer wisp of hair, not vertically under the part, due to the head tilt. In panel 11, the longer wisp of hair is out of frame; only the root of the shorter wisp of hair is visible. The area vertically under the longer wisp of hair is not visible, so the eye should not be visible.

[suszterpatt]

If you so insist on deciding whether the eye should be visible or not, a better frame of reference would be its position relative to the head's center. Split the head along its vertical diameter: you'll note that even when looking up at an angle, both eyes are on the same side (or the same semi-circle, as it were). Elan's head is split almost exactly along the diameter in the panel in question, so I could see the eye being rightfully just outside the panel (sitting just behind the black line separating the panels).

[SamBurke]

"Minor plot minutae in your face!" :roach:

Seriously... the arm is obvious, the eye is debatable. Either way, a mistake was made. BUT DO WE CARE? Will anyone stop reading OotS because of one small art mistake? And will we even get HydraBurgers with Gouda? No!

[Sarco_Phage]

This is apparently what happens in between non-controversial updates. We end up dickering about whether or not the lack of a few pixels is a grievous error.

[fibonacciseries]

"Minor plot minutae in your face!" :roach:

As I am curious, but lazy, can someone please remind me where that quote is from? Thanks.

[suszterpatt]

As I am curious, but lazy, can someone please remind me where that quote is from? Thanks.
It's from #709 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html).

[suszterpatt]

This is apparently what happens in between non-controversial updates. We end up dickering about whether or not the lack of a few pixels is a grievous error.Wait, I got it! Gannji's spear took out Elan's right eye AND severed his right arm, but Tarquin slipped one of his rings on regeneration on his other arm and so Elan's back to ok in the next panel.

[Sarco_Phage]

Wait, I got it! Gannji's spear took out Elan's right eye AND severed his right arm, but Tarquin slipped one of his rings on regeneration on his other arm and so Elan's back to ok in the next panel.

Oh god, you mean the evil ring of regeneration? Now Elan is tainted. TAINTED.

[fibonacciseries]

It's from #709 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html).

Thanks. I suppose that hard work pays off in the long run, but being lazy pays off right now! :smallbiggrin:

[Warren Dew]

Elan's head is split almost exactly along the diameter in the panel in question, so I could see the eye being rightfully just outside the panel (sitting just behind the black line separating the panels).
I agree - that's basically where I place it.


This is apparently what happens in between non-controversial updates. We end up dickering about whether or not the lack of a few pixels is a grievous error.
Yes. I actually quite liked this strip - good action sequence, a bit more character exposition of Tarquin, a bit of fun made of D&D "economics" - but there isn't all that much to discuss about it.

[Nimrod's Son]

Elan's head is split almost exactly along the diameter in the panel in question, so I could see the eye being rightfully just outside the panel (sitting just behind the black line separating the panels).
Yeah, I tend to agree with this. It's difficult to tell because this panel is zoomed in closer than the others, but judging by the amount Elan's mouth usually sticks out past his eye, it looks about right to me.

Plus, I expect all of Rich's "head" templates come with eyes already, so it'd be hard to miss them out - whereas arms need to be added separately, so are more likely to be overlooked.

[suszterpatt]

Oh god, you mean the evil ring of regeneration? Now Elan is tainted. TAINTED.Now Elan will make uncontrollable rude gestures to strangers with his evil arm/eye. They'll have to amputate them and have Durkon regenerate a pair of good aligned bodyparts.

I expect this to be a 40 strip subplot.

[sims796]

I wonder how Tarquin likes the feel of those leather pants everyone insists on putting him in.

Agreed. I was a tad suprised when everyone suddenly hated Tarquin for "executing" Ganji and Enor. Why? That was entirely within his character, and he has apparently done much worse. Do we need giant flaming letters made from the bodies of escaped slaves in order to see it?

[Lurkmoar]

Agreed. I was a tad suprised when everyone suddenly hated Tarquin for "executing" Ganji and Enor. Why? That was entirely within his character, and he has apparently done much worse. Do we need giant flaming letters made from the bodies of escaped slaves in order to see it?

Probably. And we probably need to be closer so we can smell it. :smalleek:

[Sarco_Phage]

Agreed. I was a tad suprised when everyone suddenly hated Tarquin for "executing" Ganji and Enor. Why? That was entirely within his character, and he has apparently done much worse. Do we need giant flaming letters made from the bodies of escaped slaves in order to see it?

To draw the Star Wars parallels even further, I was always a little bothered by the fact that Luke forgave Vader so easily, considering that the man has killed at least hundreds personally, hundreds of thousands by command, and probably a few world's worth as Tarkin and the Emperor's enforcer.

EDIT: Oh, and let's not forget the fact that Tarquin has murdered his way through 6 wives or so. I mean, Vader only ever killed one.

[faustin]

As discussed before, Gannji and Enor are inside the Monkeysphere, so their cruel fate was more touching.

[factotum]

To draw the Star Wars parallels even further, I was always a little bothered by the fact that Luke forgave Vader so easily, considering that the man has killed at least hundreds personally

I think the problem there is that we never saw the most horrible things Vader/Anakin did in the original trilogy. Ben said Vader betrayed and killed the Jedi Knights, but that's all we (and Luke, presumably) knew about it.

The prequels changed all that, and in my opinion messed up the whole "redemption" thing--not that this was the worst of the prequels' crimes, admittedly, but it's pretty darned important. Due to the prequels we found out that Anakin was not only largely responsible for bringing Emperor Palpatine to power in the first place (Mace Windu would have shish-kebabed him without Anakin's interference), he was also directly responsible for slaughtering all the Jedi children in the temple. Sorry, but un-doing your mistake by killing the Emperor doesn't come CLOSE to earning you redemption for something like that.

Sorry about the rant, but that particular aspect of the prequels bugs me intensely... :smallannoyed:

[Keinnicht]

To draw the Star Wars parallels even further, I was always a little bothered by the fact that Luke forgave Vader so easily, considering that the man has killed at least hundreds personally, hundreds of thousands by command, and probably a few world's worth as Tarkin and the Emperor's enforcer.

EDIT: Oh, and let's not forget the fact that Tarquin has murdered his way through 6 wives or so. I mean, Vader only ever killed one.

I think he forgave him because the dark side basically takes over your personality. Sort of like if someone had been brainwashed or possessed by a demon or whatever. The person who had thrown the Emperor into the core to save his son was not the same person who had ordered Alderaan destroyed, merely the same pseudo-body.

[Lix Lorn]

In my opinion, it doesn't matter how many bad things you've done. If you are honestly trying to redeem yourself, then, in my eyes, you are redeemed.

[Kish]

I think he forgave him because the dark side basically takes over your personality. Sort of like if someone had been brainwashed or possessed by a demon or whatever. The person who had thrown the Emperor into the core to save his son was not the same person who had ordered Alderaan destroyed, merely the same pseudo-body.
Actually, he wasn't either one, since Governor* Tarkin ordered Alderaan destroyed.

*The title "Grand Moff" is never used in the original Star Wars movie, and it's not because Tarkin doesn't have a title there. The EU can bite me.

[Sarco_Phage]

Not to mention the fact that Vader and Tarkin appear to have some kind of mutual respect, and Tarkin does indeed have a lot of control over Vader.

Vader may have been the Emps' right-hand man... but only because Tarkin was killed at Yavin.

[Taria]

I hope the lizards make it out! :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

In my opinion, it doesn't matter how many bad things you've done. If you are honestly trying to redeem yourself, then, in my eyes, you are redeemed.

You are a great deal more forgiving than I am (and probably a nicer person to boot), then. :smallbiggrin:

[Manticore7]

.....And, as I predicted, the events following strip 783 had twists that I hadn't predicted but was happy with ne'ertheless. :smallbiggrin:

Also as expected, Tarquin's still somebody I remember I ought to hate but has a certain terrifying charm that makes it difficult for me to do so. (I still resent the whole evil, evil outset, but he carries things out so well and fiction is boring with antagonists that are dealt with too easily.)

Tarquin Is a villian you can't help but love, too bad the partys gotta take him down, or do they?

[Kish]

Tarquin Is a villian you can't help but love,
No, he really isn't.

[Sarco_Phage]

Tarquin Is a villian you can't help but love

What, you mean the mass murderer and apparent serial killer?

[cc_kizz]

…The prequels changed all that, and in my opinion messed up the whole "redemption" thing--not that this was the worst of the prequels' crimes, admittedly, but it's pretty darned important.…

Sorry about the rant, but that particular aspect of the prequels bugs me intensely... :smallannoyed:

This explains exactly one aspect of why Episode III is not a film I wish to see again…

Now, if we get some bonus footage in an upcoming book that undermined the understanding we have of Tarquin…

[Killer Angel]

What, you mean the mass murderer and apparent serial killer?

At least, he does it with style. :smallwink:
But yeah, from here to "love it", the gap is wide.

[Sarco_Phage]

This explains exactly one aspect of why Episode III is not a film I wish to see again…

Now, if we get some bonus footage in an upcoming book that undermined the understanding we have of Tarquin…

It would be hard to "undermine" our understanding of Tarquin, unless said book makes it clear that he is actually a decent person as opposed to a bloody handed shadow tyrant.

[Killer Angel]

It would be hard to "undermine" our understanding of Tarquin, unless said book makes it clear that he is actually a decent person as opposed to a bloody handed shadow tyrant.

This one, could be a task for R.R. Martin...

[Sarco_Phage]

This one, could be a task for R.R. Martin...

Actually, if he took on the job we'd just end up with a bloody-handed morally ambiguous tyrant instead of an unabashedly evil one.

[Killer Angel]

Actually, if he took on the job we'd just end up with a bloody-handed morally ambiguous tyrant instead of an unabashedly evil one.

Nevertheless, it would be an improvement. :smallbiggrin:
I stopped hating Jaime, after all...

[Sarco_Phage]

Nevertheless, it would be an improvement. :smallbiggrin:
I stopped hating Jaime, after all...

I somehow managed to forgive him for throwing a small boy out the window and generally being a jackass, yes, and then subsequently hated GRRM for playing with my emotions like a kitten with a ball of yarn. That man is amazing.

[ThePhantasm]

*The title "Grand Moff" is never used in the original Star Wars movie, and it's not because Tarkin doesn't have a title there. The EU can bite me.

Kish, I love you for this. In my mind EU and prequel films don't exist. There is only the original trilogy.

[hamishspence]

Actually, he wasn't either one, since Governor* Tarkin ordered Alderaan destroyed.

*The title "Grand Moff" is never used in the original Star Wars movie, and it's not because Tarkin doesn't have a title there. The EU can bite me.

It is used in the novelization though- which is G-canon.

If you ignore the novelizations and the prequels, then "Dark Lord of the Sith" and "Palpatine" as names don't occur at all on screen.

[Lix Lorn]

You are a great deal more forgiving than I am (and probably a nicer person to boot), then. :smallbiggrin:
You just wait til I try (and fail) to put this philosophy into practice. xD

[Neoriceisgood]

I never really follow these discussions much, but am I understanding you guys right in saying that Tarquin suddenly got hated for wanting to kill the lizardmen? :smalleek:

That's got very disturbing implications considering it must mean people seemingly didn't mind his past actions that much/ at all, geez.

On the subject of "defeating" Tarquin though, as he mentioned in an earlier page, he expects to be defeated; he's already obtained his own "personal victory" through the fact that he accepts his undeniable fate, so I doubt that anyone will feel "good" about killing him/feel that they genuinly defeated him.


I've seen a character similar to Tarquin before in some manga, it was some guy who insisted on being "evil"; Did some weird stuff, made a (fake) dark castle on top of a mountain, had all of his underlings pretty much wear nazi uniforms and actively did whatever he himself considered "most evil" (comparable to Tarquin's slave burning present, pretty much);

(gonna spoiler how it ended in the manga, as it's in a way future speculation, hahah)
What's fascinating though, is that the hero "defeated" him by taking the pleasure he gained from the hatred away.

To put it bluntly, the hero pretty much called him a poser and said he "wasn't evil, but just desperately trying to be" or whatever (it's been a while since I read it), and rather than giving the guy the glorious death of a villain he was hoping for (by being defeated by the hero as one of his main adversaries) he just let the townspeople deal with him.(as far as I remember!);

Just mentioning this as the character in question very strongly reminded me of Tarquin's base design, though less nice a person than Tarquin was and more pathetic too.

[factotum]

It is used in the novelization though- which is G-canon.


Doesn't it also appear in the credits for the original movie? If so, that would make it full-blown canon, I think.

[hamishspence]

While there's variance within G-canon (wherever a novel contradicts a movie, the movie takes precedence) both movies and novelizations of movies, are considered G. canon.

I'm not sure whether "Palpatine" or just "The Emperor" is the name given in the credits. Same with "Grand Moff Tarkin" vs "Tarkin".

[Jeivar]

So, is there some hugely powerful, savage, human-sized race that I'm unaware of? Or are we just in for a very high level and crazy human fighter?

[hamishspence]

Epic Handbook has some powerful templates that can be applied to humans.

"High level, crazy human fighter" seems a bit more likely than that, though.

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm not sure whether "Palpatine" or just "The Emperor" is the name given in the credits. Same with "Grand Moff Tarkin" vs "Tarkin".
Just checked (thanks, YouTube) - they're credited as "Grand Moff Tarkin" in the original movie and "The Emperor" in RotJ.

[ThePhantasm]

Just checked (thanks, YouTube) - they're credited as "Grand Moff Tarkin" in the original movie and "The Emperor" in RotJ.

Well, as far as that goes, I'm fine with standing by my statement. "The Emperor" sounds much cooler than "Palpatine" anywho.

[Nimrod's Son]

"The Emperor" sounds much cooler than "Palpatine" anywho.
I was a member of the starwars.com forums for a while circa Episode II, and it seemed like about 40% of the posters there routinely called him "Palpy". It made my toes curl every time I read it. This man is the epitome of evil; he does not require a cutesy nickname.

[Kish]

Just checked (thanks, YouTube) - they're credited as "Grand Moff Tarkin" in the original movie and "The Emperor" in RotJ.
Is that the original original movie, or the redone original movie?

In any case, if ignoring the EU means the Emperor is nameless and Vader is--as he's presented in Star Wars--the last devotee of a religion (the Force) which most of the Empire considered a silly superstition, rather than them both being representatives of an order that's a kind of negative reflection of the Jedi, I'm more than fine with that.

[Nimrod's Son]

Is that the original original movie, or the redone original movie?
It's the original. According to Wookieepedia (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wilhuff_Tarkin), he's been called Grand Moff (or spelling variations thereof) ever since the first draft of the script, but it was never spoken aloud in the movie for some reason.

[factotum]

In any case, if ignoring the EU means the Emperor is nameless and Vader is--as he's presented in Star Wars--the last devotee of a religion (the Force) which most of the Empire considered a silly superstition, rather than them both being representatives of an order that's a kind of negative reflection of the Jedi, I'm more than fine with that.

In order to go with that assumption you also have to ignore every movie except the original Star Wars, including ESB and RotJ...

[Kish]

In order to go with that assumption you also have to ignore every movie except the original Star Wars, including ESB and RotJ...
Yes, Return of the Jedi gave the Emperor force powers too. I don't remember any Sith references, but I might just be forgetting.

[Nimrod's Son]

I don't remember any Sith references, but I might just be forgetting.
Not in the movie, no. But the word "Sith" was pretty ubiquitous by the time, having appeared prominently in advertising and merchandise. I knew Darth Vader was "The Dark Lord of the Sith" (As opposed to "A..." :smallwink:) by the age of four despite it never being mentioned in the movies.

[Ron Miel]

I was a member of the starwars.com forums for a while circa Episode II, and it seemed like about 40% of the posters there routinely called him "Palpy". It made my toes curl every time I read it. This man is the epitome of evil; he does not require a cutesy nickname.

Unlike, for example, Uncle Joe, Old Adolf or Muso.

[Nimrod's Son]

Unlike, for example, Uncle Joe, Old Adolf or Muso.
None of those are particularly "cutesy" though, are they? And isn't "Uncle Joe" meant to be ironic? I could probably go Googling, but I'm tired.

[Ron Miel]

You think Musso isn't cutesy?
http://www.beano.com/retro-beano/musso-the-wop?decade=1940

[Nimrod's Son]

I'd go more with "racist", personally. :smallwink: