Help me build a Team of Lv 20s!

[Sims]

I got a challenge from this "bully" type in our group. We're both to make a team of 4 level 20 characters.

I was thinking of going 2 Cleric and 2 Wizards, but he might just Anti-Magic me.

I don't really want to use a Fighter, but I might have to.

I think he'll use at least one Wizard.

All we have is the CoW, Players Handbook 1, and 2, and other Core only books. (If i haven't listed them), we also have Savage Species, not that it'll matter much.

I also know for sure he'll use a Monk.

[Tyndmyr]

I got a challenge from this "bully" type in our group. We're both to make a team of 4 level 20 characters.

I was thinking of going 2 Cleric and 2 Wizards, but he might just Anti-Magic me.

Druids, clerics, wizards. This is what you should consider for your team. Anti-magic is solvable by instant conjurations. They nuke right into an AMF.

Avoid being in the AMF via contingency, flight, teleport, etc. BTW, your entire team should be flying, ethereal, etc.


I don't really want to use a Fighter, but I might have to.

No you don't.


I think he'll use at least one Wizard.

All we have is the CoW, Players Handbook 1, and 2, and other Core only books. (If i haven't listed them), we also have Savage Species, not that it'll matter much.

The sourcebooks were picked by who, him?


I also know for sure he'll use a Monk.

A level 20 monk? aheh. Yeah, this is an easy match.

[Alleran]

Savage Species?

At least one wizard.

Double PaO/Wish transform into Illithid Savant for everybody.

I'm sure you can work out where to go from there.

[PersonMan]

If you're worried about an AMF, just go for a tinfoil hat thing-a Permanently Shrunk hat, normally large enough to cover you. In an AMF it expands, blocking Line of Effect and letting you escape(or whatever).

Or, bring in a bunch of Called creatures-they don't poof in an AMF, IIRC.

[vampire2948]

Are you able to take along planar binding'd / undead / leadership mooks / similar?

What're the rules for this fight, if there are any? Buff rounds?

[byaku rai]

Are templates allowed? Because if so, you can easily make a lvl 20 character with a CR of OMFG WTF IS THAT? :smallbiggrin:

Also, Savage Species has some good creatures to start with for any character, so you can, for example, make a lvl 20 cleric anthropomorphic elephant (CR 23, I think) that can still pwn even in an antimagic field.

Of course, this is all assuming that you mean LEVEL 20, rather than CR 20. Big difference in wiggle room there.

[Gnaeus]

I don't really want to use a Fighter, but I might have to.


Druid. You DON'T have to use a fighter.

I would look at Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Druid, 2 T Rexes or 1 T Rex and a Dire Tiger.

1 T Rex probably beats their monk
1 T Rex swallows whoever launches the AMF.
Spec 1 Druid for grapple (shapechange, + Improved grapple feat. MAYBE 1 level of monk, no more) This guy is your "Fighter" along with the pets.
Second druid is your flying caster. Turns into a high AC flier (shapechange) and flies around, holding his action to Greater Dispel or Finger of Death any caster who starts doing something threatening. (Take the Hover feat)
Cleric and wizard both start the combat by Gating in high HD outsiders to crush the enemy. Cleric then focuses on canceling what the other guys are doing with spells like Mass Heal, Greater Dispel Magic (using luck domain for rerolls), or Miracle. Wizard uses Time Stop, Gate, and Summons to overwhelm them.

[Sims]

Are you able to take along planar binding'd / undead / leadership mooks / similar?

What're the rules for this fight, if there are any? Buff rounds?

Pretty much anything goes as long as its in the above books. But I don't think we can have cohorts, or animal companions. Familiars are fine.

[Tyndmyr]

I suspect leadership and gate should be enough to win alone. With just regular old casters, taking leadership to get more casters, who take leadership to get more casters and so on, you should be able to cast an utterly ridiculous number of spells right off.

The correct spell to cast for your eight highest casters is gate. You want Solars.

Subtlety and planning can pretty much go out the window at this point. Monk....heh.

Edit: Event without cohorts, four gates = win.

Edit2: Also, you may have thought "not all of my players will go first". The correct answer is Time Stop, followed by lots of gates.

[ILM]

The correct spell to cast for your eight highest casters is gate. You want Solars.
Well since the ELH is included in the SRD (and Solars are CR 23 so pretty much epic-level territory already), why not go the extra mile, pump up that CL as high as you can, and gate in a few Umbral Blots, Sirrushes, Adamantine Golems, Demiliches, etc.?

[Sims]

Well since the ELH is included in the SRD (and Solars are CR 23 so pretty much epic-level territory already), why not go the extra mile, pump up that CL as high as you can, and gate in a few Umbral Blots, Sirrushes, Adamantine Golems, Demiliches, etc.?

We don't have the books with those creatures, even though I know they exist. :(

[Chess435]

Just pull up the SRD during the match with whatever you want to gate in!

[Sims]

Just pull up the SRD during the match with whatever you want to gate in!

Both the guy I'm fighting and the guy refereeing like to kiss each others behinds, so if i gate in an Adamantine Golem, both are gonna get pissed off.

[ILM]

Both the guy I'm fighting and the guy refereeing like to kiss each others behinds, so if i gate in an Adamantine Golem, both are gonna get pissed off.
What so basically, it's a match you're supposed to lose?

But fine, don't use the SRD's epic stuff, stick to solars and infinite balor gating.

[Killer Angel]

I was thinking of going 2 Cleric and 2 Wizards, but he might just Anti-Magic me.


Cheater of Mystra?
Also, spells that bypass AMF.


Druid.

Absolutely this.
Alternatively:


I suspect leadership and gate should be enough to win alone. With just regular old casters, taking leadership to get more casters, who take leadership to get more casters and so on, you should be able to cast an utterly ridiculous number of spells right off.

The correct spell to cast for your eight highest casters is gate. You want Solars.


Or, you know, try directly the Team Solar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138&highlight=team)! :smallbiggrin:

[Tael]

Both the guy I'm fighting and the guy refereeing like to kiss each others behinds, so if i gate in an Adamantine Golem, both are gonna get pissed off.

If the DM and your opponent are on the same side, they're going to figure out a way to make you lose. Also, what is CoW?

That said:

1: Batman - Lvl 20 Wizard/Archmage
General everything caster. In battle he uses Timestop, Shapechange and Gate. He comes equiped with a crapload of SR reducing stuff and CL boosters. He should also be optimized to go first in initiative. And when I say that, I mean he uses Celerity to go first, and then uses Timestop. All the rest of your characters will just be variations on this one.

2: The Blaster - As Batman, except he picked up Arcane These and a crapload of metamagic. This guy should be able to pump out 250 damage per round consistently.

3: The Defense - As Batman, except this guy might be cleric. Optimize Dispel checks, take 10 on them (spell mastery jumps to mind), and play defensive. Put up defensive buffs and dispel/counter the enemy team's. If you can't grab the Inquisition Domain, this guy should probably be a wizard.

4: Whatever the Hell you want.
This guy could be druid, eating faces with some buffs and a crazy companion, or just another wizard.

Any way you go, check out PHBII. It's got a lot of good stuff. Remember to study up before the game. Learn all of your characters capabilities. If you have wizards, don't neglect your lower level spells - Greater Mirror image is an amazing immediate defensive buff. Druids should have many forms available, etc. Oh yeah, all of your guys have leadership. With the same team 2 levels lower.

[Eldariel]

Do you know the best thing about magic? Everything. (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/01/31/episode-1089-special-delivery/)


Ok, so a game of heavy weights. Workhorses:
- Gate
- Time Stop (to Gate a lot)
- Dimensional Lock
- Contingency
- Polymorph Any Object
- Greater Planar Binding
- Shapechange (may be worth it having one Sorcerer around for major lulz; it's level 20 anyways and Sorcs are almost as good as Wizards by then - most Shapechange Supernatural Abilities derive save DCs off Charisma so you can imagine how much fun e.g. Beholder can be with 40+ Cha)
- Greater Dispel Magic
- Disjunction
- Acid Fog
- Contact Other Plane
- Simulacrum
- Greater Teleport
- Plane Shift
- Moment of Prescience
- Greater Scrying
- True Seeing
- Greater Prying Eyes
- Control Winds
- Astral Projection
- Project Image
- Telekinesis (the items can be thrown into anti-magic and they can deal very respectable damage; get a high caster level with Archmage + Beads of Karma [Use Magic Device] + Orange Prism Ioun Stone and profit)
- Shrink Item (the items return to their normal size in AMF; doesn't take much creativity to abuse that)
- Anti-Magic Field (just cast it centered on your Familiar and have your Familiar fly in; poof, instant magical defense removal and then you just sick your called creatures on 'em)
- Celerity (duh)
- Greater Mirror Image (duuuh)

Perhaps Wall of Force or so.


and all the warding spells (Freedom of Movement, Heroes' Feast, Deathward, Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, Heroism, maybe Iron Bodies or whatever - not a big deal either way). And Quickened versions of stuff like True Strike, Dimension Door, Glitterdust, etc. And maybe metamagicked Enervations (Empower 'em and mayhap have a Rod of Maximize Spell handy or so), Chain Lightnings or so.

Of course, using Shapechange and Gate for your primary killing needs; most efficient that way. That and disarming opponents' magic defenses > Dominating some with lower Will-save for major lulz (if you bring a Sorc, this may be a nice trick for her). There are also some nice tricks you can do with Magic Jar (Doc Roc showcases them on Commodore Guff nicely here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9186526#post9186526)) though those are like to be unnecessary for the encounter at hands. It may also be convenient to read up on Against the Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133571) as a basic-level showcase of how to even up the odds with magic and overall, how to use environment and line of sight to your advantage.


I assume CoW = Complete Warrior? Not much of value there, except something to pimp your animal companion out with; Dire Tiger Charger is plenty impressive. Indeed, without any source of Pounce for the melee types, it'll outdamage anything a class could accomplish with these sources (Shock Trooper it up > profit).

You could just go Wizard 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5, Sorcerer 15/Archmage 5, Cleric 15/Thaumaturgist 5 and Druid 20 or so. Seems easy enough. Remember to tie your Contingencies and Contingent Conjurations and such to Free Actions that can be taken out of turn order like speaking. And be prepared to have the page references from PHB up for at least the following:
- Skill checks and ability checks don't autofail on natural 1s (it's in the skill descriptions - makes for safe Contact Other Planes with 40 in casting stat).
- Speaking is a free action that can be taken out of turn order (in combat chapter)
- Gated creatures will serve unquestioningly for 1 round/lvl with no buts (Gate-spell description)
- Planar Bound creatures will serve if you win the Charisma-check, no buts (Planar Binding-spell description).
- Tornado-effects (in DMG)
- Line of sight and effect (in aiming spells, I recall)
- Polymorph-spells change your type allowing for permanent Polymorph Any Objects (Polymorph-spell description; note the amount of errata on them, so it may be fastest to just check them out online)
- Animal Companions are a class feature of Druids (Druid class description)
- Called creatures and instantaneous conjurations are not affected by Antimagic Field (AMF spell description)

Because all of those might be things people are not immediately aware of and that are incredibly relevant for the encounter at hands.


I strongly suggest against using Illithid Savants.
1) It's too easy
2) You'll spend most of the session arguing what abilities you've been able to acquire and the entry itself

Just not worth the effort. Besides, if he's gonna use a ****ing Monk there's no need for you to waste your effort on it; casters are gonna destroy it so hard.

[Gnaeus]

Cheater of Mystra?
Also, spells that bypass AMF.

Or, you know, try directly the Team Solar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138&highlight=team)! :smallbiggrin:

Good ideas. Not Core.

[Tyndmyr]

What so basically, it's a match you're supposed to lose?

But fine, don't use the SRD's epic stuff, stick to solars and infinite balor gating.

SRD isn't all core. ELH wasn't in the allowed sources.


Cheater of Mystra?
Also, spells that bypass AMF.

Note that he listed allowed sources.


Or, you know, try directly the Team Solar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138&highlight=team)! :smallbiggrin:

Again, not listed in allowed sources.

People, you need to read more than the title.

As a side note, Celerity is in PHB 2. You want it.

[Killer Angel]

People, you need to read more than the title.


:smallredface:
I suppose I can only apologize...

Edit: We are NOT ruining the game, suggesting Candles, right?
But maybe OP could check this with the DM, just to be sure his adversary won't use the usually banned objects (dust of sneezing, etc.)

[byaku rai]

Note: Not listed, but Monster Manuals are all core. Use Gates and summon EVERYTHING.

On the other hand, unless I'm misinterpreting the rules, it seems like they're trying to prevent stuff like infinite summoning and such, so that nerfs your casters a bit. On the other hand, the other guy has a Monk (lol) so you really don't have to try too hard there. Just fly away and he's useless (well, even more so). Stuff like Wall of Iron or Wall of Force can trap noncasters while you Fly and pelt them from above, and one or two casters up against a well-put-together group of them is no match at all. If you're really all that worried about AMF, use a monster race that can fly naturally as your base race. A normal AMF only has a diameter of 10-20 feet (I forget which, or I could be just plain wrong) so even if you get caught in it, you can just move out next round. Or, if you're using magic to fly, it reactivates as soon as you fall out.

As for a melee person, if any, a druid is your best bet. Just Wild Shape (make sure you have the Wild Spell feat) and alternate pounding them and blasting them. If the enemy miraculously manages to close with your people on the ground, make sure you abuse 5-foot steps and Defensive Casting to avoid AoOs. You should be fine with this stuff. If all else fails, Time Stop > Summons and Gates > ZERG RUSH KEKEKEKEKEKE

[Eldariel]

As for a melee person, if any, a druid is your best bet. Just Wild Shape (make sure you have the Wild Spell feat) and alternate pounding them and blasting them. If the enemy miraculously manages to close with your people on the ground, make sure you abuse 5-foot steps and Defensive Casting to avoid AoOs. You should be fine with this stuff. If all else fails, Time Stop > Summons and Gates > ZERG RUSH KEKEKEKEKEKE

It's level 20. Shapechange > Wildshape. And it's on all lists: Cleric (Animal-domain), Druid, Wizard.

[Gnaeus]

As for a melee person, if any, a druid is your best bet. Just Wild Shape (make sure you have the Wild Spell feat) and alternate pounding them and blasting them.

At level 20, Shapechange usually beats Wild shape. It gives ex and SUs, allows more types of creatures, and lets you change every round.

Swordsaged!

[Tyndmyr]

You really don't need candles or infinite summoning to win.

Celerity->Timestop->Gate(repeat) x4 is a viable strategy.

[byaku rai]

It's level 20. Shapechange > Wildshape. And it's on all lists: Cleric (Animal-domain), Druid, Wizard.

Very good point, here. Plus you can Shapechange into just about anything. Therefore, you can probably get away with just making all your people Great Wyrm dragons in the first round. Melee people will be killed. A lot. Plus you can still cast spells freely.

[ILM]

SRD isn't all core. ELH wasn't in the allowed sources.
My bad, thought the SRD and core were pretty much the same thing, I stand corrected. I'll go back to infinite Balors then.

edit: yeaaaaah, that didn't work like I thought it did. Disregard.

edit: oh wait, you can't control 5 Balors, can you?

[Radar]

(...)
edit: oh wait, you can't control 5 Balors, can you?
So? You just say Have fun boys, bring friends.

Also: Balors won't act in your Timestop, so you summon only 5 Balors per character before initiative.

[Draz74]

OK, so you're dealing with:

Core + PHB2 only, essentially
a houserule that takes away one of the Druid's best class features (Animal Companion) :smallconfused: (Banning leadership makes sense; banning Animal Companion is a straight-up nerf.)
a DM who's pretty much against you, meaning he'll probably interpret the rules as "RAI" rather than RAW, anytime it would be good for your opponent; this also means clever little rules-abusing optimization tricks like the Tinfoil Hat probably will get banned
a strong possibility of an AMF, probably involving rulings that no magic works in AMF, in spite of what the rules actually say (e.g. about instantaneous conjurations)
probably no "spare" XP to use for Gate


With the DM probably ruling a lot of things in Antimagic's favor, and Core-only, and no Animal Companions to be your AMF-Fighters, I actually think you should make one character that can function perfectly well in Antimagic. Possibly Barbarian 18 / Fighter 2, or maybe Ranger 3 / Barbarian 7 / Fighter 2 / Horizon Walker 8 or something like that. Grappling should be the main tactic of this character. With the Core-only restriction, there is nothing that a character in an AMF can do about being grappled. So if your opponent uses AMF, kill off the character generating the AMF with the Grappler, then go back to fighting normally.

I liked the idea of Druid 19 / Monk 1 as one of your characters. Near-full Druid power, but the Monk level helps out a lot if he has to function in Antimagic.

So yeah ...


Ranger 3 / Barbarian 5 / Fighter 4 / Horizon Walker 8, focused on grappling first, tripping second
Druid 19 / Monk 1
Cleric 20
Conjurer (with Abrupt Jaunt) 5 / Loremaster 10 / Archmage 5


is my recommendation. Possibly you could replace the Cleric with a second Druid or a second Wizard.

[Devmaar]

Cleric 20

Cleric10/Loremaster10 is the same but with class features

[Draz74]

Cleric10/Loremaster10 is the same but with class features

Prerequisites are tough to meet, though. You'd need to take the Knowledge domain, which restricts the option of Domains (remember, the Cloistered variant isn't in the allowed sources). And you'd also have to fit in a decent Intelligence score.

[The Glyphstone]

On the other hand, AMF+listed sources means no one in an AMF can fly, so if your entire party is airborne, he can't engage you while protected by one.

Buy your team bows (big, powerful ones that take advantage of Shapechange stats), annihilate anyone outside AMF with magic and summons, then plink away at the AMF-sap(s) from out of their reach.

[Endarire]

Part of me chants, "Red Wizard! Red Wizard! Red Wizard!"

[Tael]

Part of me chants, "Red Wizard! Red Wizard! Red Wizard!"

Part of me slaps you over the head chanting "Bad Endarire! Bad Endarire! Bad Endarire!"

But yeah. Enjoy your CL 40 spells.

[faceroll]

Make sure your cleric has the Animal domain, so he can Shapechange. I would go Gray Elf Wizard (old) x2, Old Anthropomorphic Bat Cleric, Old Anthro bat Druid.

Use stuff like forcecage or wall of force in a time stop- the enemy will only notice it with a spot check, since they can't see you cast it. On average, time stop + forcecage gets you a 1.5-2.5 action advantage over an opponent.

Use Disjunction to ruin all their gear/crack anti-magic fields.

You could get enormously strength rated composite bows (with +14 or +15 on them), shapechange into titans, and go to town on anyone foolish enough to put up an AMF.

Eldariel had a great list of spells. I would recommend both wizards using empowered enervate + quickened enervate. Anything that loses 4 levels or more will get absolutely destroyed by the Cleric's Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum. Just make sure your cleric's got an orange ioun stone. Make sure your whole party does.


On the other hand, AMF+listed sources means no one in an AMF can fly, so if your entire party is airborne, he can't engage you while protected by one.

Buy your team bows (big, powerful ones that take advantage of Shapechange stats), annihilate anyone outside AMF with magic and summons, then plink away at the AMF-sap(s) from out of their reach.

Well, the guy casting the AMF could always be using a race with flying. There are several in Savage Species.

But that would be a good approach.


OK, so you're dealing with:

Core + PHB2 only, essentially
a houserule that takes away one of the Druid's best class features (Animal Companion) :smallconfused: (Banning leadership makes sense; banning Animal Companion is a straight-up nerf.)
a DM who's pretty much against you, meaning he'll probably interpret the rules as "RAI" rather than RAW, anytime it would be good for your opponent; this also means clever little rules-abusing optimization tricks like the Tinfoil Hat probably will get banned
a strong possibility of an AMF, probably involving rulings that no magic works in AMF, in spite of what the rules actually say (e.g. about instantaneous conjurations)
probably no "spare" XP to use for Gate


With the DM probably ruling a lot of things in Antimagic's favor, and Core-only, and no Animal Companions to be your AMF-Fighters, I actually think you should make one character that can function perfectly well in Antimagic. Possibly Barbarian 18 / Fighter 2, or maybe Ranger 3 / Barbarian 7 / Fighter 2 / Horizon Walker 8 or something like that. Grappling should be the main tactic of this character. With the Core-only restriction, there is nothing that a character in an AMF can do about being grappled. So if your opponent uses AMF, kill off the character generating the AMF with the Grappler, then go back to fighting normally.

I liked the idea of Druid 19 / Monk 1 as one of your characters. Near-full Druid power, but the Monk level helps out a lot if he has to function in Antimagic.

So yeah ...


Ranger 3 / Barbarian 5 / Fighter 4 / Horizon Walker 8, focused on grappling first, tripping second
Druid 19 / Monk 1
Cleric 20
Conjurer (with Abrupt Jaunt) 5 / Loremaster 10 / Archmage 5


is my recommendation. Possibly you could replace the Cleric with a second Druid or a second Wizard.

Very good observations.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, the guy casting the AMF could always be using a race with flying. There are several in Savage Species.


Missed SS in the book list - yeah, if the guy on the other side has any brain at all, he'll slap the Winged template on his intended AMF caster.

[Doc Roc]

I came in here all raring to be helpful, but Eld covered much of my stuff.

If you need specific builds or itemization help, please let me know.

[Tael]

Tell us how it goes by the way! I also encourage you to ask about how the DM will be handling AMF before the fight, as it will greatly change build choices.

[Tvtyrant]

Pretty much everything to be said has been said, my only piece of advice is you might want a horizon tripper for dealing with people in the AMF.

[tyckspoon]

All we have is the CoW, Players Handbook 1, and 2, and other Core only books. (If i haven't listed them), we also have Savage Species, not that it'll matter much.


Well.. it does mean your 'Fighter' can be a Feral Tauric Half-Dragon Dire Bear/Lizardfolk or something similarly silly. That will pretty reliably rip anything to shreds inside an AMF.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You have Celerity and Contingency at your command. Why in the world do you need to worry about the opponents taking an action?

Celerity Sudden-Mazimize Time Stop. Yes, I do go first, and I do have a guaranteed 4 rounds.

Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect.

One caster hits the opponents with a MdJ before the smack is laid down. This will likely blow up whatever they are using to generate the AMF.

From there, simply embarrass them by applying no-save and no-sr type effects. Forcecage + Cloudkill is a really fun combination if the opponent is silly like that. Acid Fog is another good one to toss in there for guaranteed acid damage every round.

Also, Foresight, so yes, you do go first, even then.

[Particle_Man]

Celerity->Timestop->Gate(repeat) x4 is a viable strategy.

Isn't Celerity from Complete Divine? So not one of the allowed books?

"CoW, Players Handbook 1, and 2, and other Core only books. (If i haven't listed them), we also have Savage Species"

[The Glyphstone]

Celerity is in PHB2.

[Eldariel]

Isn't Celerity from Complete Divine? So not one of the allowed books?

...as stated twice in this very thread already, it's from PHB2.


I came in here all raring to be helpful, but Eld covered much of my stuff.

If you need specific builds or itemization help, please let me know.

If you want the best team, Sims, take this offer. The man is easily in the Top 5 all-time far as optimization- and system knowledge in 3.X goes and only "Top 5" is a conservative estimation.

Though you still need to learn how to use all the good stuff yourself; builds only get you so far and powerful magic requires finesse to use optimally. You will be the one to go through the motions in the actual game.

[Particle_Man]

...as stated twice in this very thread already, it's from PHB2.

Ah, I was thinking the Domain instead of the spell.

[Tyndmyr]

On the other hand, AMF+listed sources means no one in an AMF can fly, so if your entire party is airborne, he can't engage you while protected by one.

Buy your team bows (big, powerful ones that take advantage of Shapechange stats), annihilate anyone outside AMF with magic and summons, then plink away at the AMF-sap(s) from out of their reach.

This is also true. I'd probably just drop objects instead of using bows, but either way...the fliers can trash everyone with impunity.

[Eldariel]

This is also true. I'd probably just drop objects instead of using bows, but either way...the fliers can trash everyone with impunity.

Flying mounts are rather easy to come by and have gold values, though. Not to mention, AMF on Arcane Archer's arrow or such.

[The Glyphstone]

Flying mounts are rather easy to come by and have gold values, though. Not to mention, AMF on Arcane Archer's arrow or such.

That just means added lulz when you shoot the mount out from under them, and they have no magical flight or Feather Fall effects to save them.:smallbiggrin:

[Draz74]

On the subject of Contingency and Foresight ... I kind of doubt his DM is the type to allow pre-buffing before the battle, even for spells with long enough durations that they should always be up.

[MrRigger]

There's always Craft Contingent Spell for that. Though I suppose that would also require a bit more information about the exact rules of the showdown.

MrRigger

[Ducklord]

Make 4 red wizards. Use circle magic with all of them. Anti magic field will hurt a wizard, but anyone who casts it will have to be a high level spellcaster and will render themselves completely useless as well. Spells that will make you outright win:

Celerity
Time stop
Moment of prescience
Foresight

[faceroll]

Disjunction allows the items a save; if they are attended they use their owner's will save.


There's always Craft Contingent Spell for that. Though I suppose that would also require a bit more information about the exact rules of the showdown.

MrRigger

It's also not in the allowed books.


Anti magic field will hurt a wizard, but anyone who casts it will have to be a high level spellcaster and will render themselves completely useless as well.

That's why you cast it on the back of a winged centaur barbarian.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Disjunction has a good chance of blowing an active AMF, and an even better chance of destroying an opponent's ability to pose a significant threat (i.e. magic items). All four casters spamming that the first round will be a pretty good way to start combat.

Preferabally whilst flying (use either Overland Flight or Phantom Steed) and Greater Invisible.

As far as not being allowed buff rounds, it shouldn't be necessary, as you can buff yourself in a time stop. Not allowing an active contingency is cheezy, but then, the GM is actively hostile to the idea, so he might disallow it. So first round probably looks something like this:

If you win initiative:

Disjunction

Celerity (as a swift action): Sudden Maximize Time Stop:
- Stunned from Celerity
- Overland Flight/Phantom Steed
- Mirror Image
- Greater Invisibility
- Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect



If you loose initiative:

Celerity (as an interrupt action): Time Stop (proceed with buff parade), then hit them with Disjunction on your first rond

[Ducklord]

That's why you cast it on the back of a winged centaur barbarian.

In the SRD it says

Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you

So you can only cast it on yourself. And how do you get a winged centaur in core?

But even if you put AMF on a winged barbarian somehow, a party of 4 lvl20 wizards would probably be able to kill him pretty quickly. The enemy caster just spent an action to cast that useless AMF after all! This is lvl20 gameplay, only casters matter by this point.

[The Glyphstone]

Winged template is in Savage Species, which is listed as allowed. A Centaur is large, which means it can carry a passenger if you buy a saddle.

[faceroll]

In the SRD it says

Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you

So you can only cast it on yourself. And how do you get a winged centaur in core?

But even if you put AMF on a winged barbarian somehow, a party of 4 lvl20 wizards would probably be able to kill him pretty quickly. The enemy caster just spent an action to cast that useless AMF after all! This is lvl20 gameplay, only casters matter by this point.

The wizard (or cleric) rides on the back of the centaur.

[2xMachina]

However, I think that's weak.

They deactivated their Wizard/Cleric so that their beat-stick gets an advantage. Unless they suck using Wizards/Clerics, they're not gaining much.

A winged centaur of your own will kill the wizard/cleric so fast, it isn't funny. Wizard has no armor, no magic defences. Cleric has heavy mundane armor, and no magic defenses. Oh, and roll a ride check for taking damage in saddle. If they fail, have a good trip to the ground. No feather fall, cause they can't cast in AMF. Or you can grapple them, and then move them off the mount, and let go.

[Eldariel]

But even if you put AMF on a winged barbarian somehow, a party of 4 lvl20 wizards would probably be able to kill him pretty quickly. The enemy caster just spent an action to cast that useless AMF after all! This is lvl20 gameplay, only casters matter by this point.

You know what counters AMF pretty hard? Gate. Gate in something big and I guarantee you, your opponents will pray and beg they could dismiss the AMF. GL beating e.g. Great Wyrm Red in an AMF with those sources; no pounce, no AoO-less charges, no nothing.

[ILM]

GL beating e.g. Great Wyrm Red in an AMF with those sources; no pounce, no AoO-less charges, no nothing.
Great Wyrm is Colossal size, doesn't fit in the 20' opening of a Gate. You'd be stuck with Wyrm.

[Eldariel]

Great Wyrm is Colossal size, doesn't fit in the 20' opening of a Gate. You'd be stuck with Wyrm.

Meh. Fair enough. More than sufficient, though.

[faceroll]

no pounce

Feral and 4 racial HD gets you pounce. But uh, not really worth it. Lion's Charge also gets you pounce for rounds/level, but of course, no function in AMF.

[byaku rai]

This, all the way. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002

[Tael]

Don't forget to tell us how it worked out, and what you finally ran with!

[byaku rai]

Yes, please! I'm very curious.

[The Glyphstone]

Odds are that it won't happen...most stories like this end with the challenger backing down behind some lame excuse.

[Doc Roc]

Odds are that it won't happen...most stories like this end with the challenger backing down behind some lame excuse.

That must be nice. Only one of my challengers has ended things that way. :|

[Eldariel]

That must be nice. Only one of my challengers has ended things that way. :|

Then again, given you generally have the power to right-click to win, I don't see that being such a major issue.

[Doc Roc]

Then again, given you generally have the power to right-click to win, I don't see that being such a major issue.

I am le tired!

[Eldariel]

I am le tired!

*shrug* Understandable. I was once asked to build a level 15 party corresponding to the traditional party roles leading to me building a level 15 Wizard, Druid, Psychic Warrior and Swordsage/Rogue; without ever getting to play them, just the item selection and builds took the juice out of me for months. And I wasn't doing anything special; just normal numeric optimization with levels and items!

[The Glyphstone]

I am le tired!

Well, go take a nap.

THEN RIGHT CLICK TO WIN!

Hopefully I was cueing off the right reference there.

[Doc Roc]

*shrug* Understandable. I was once asked to build a level 15 party corresponding to the traditional party roles leading to me building a level 15 Wizard, Druid, Psychic Warrior and Swordsage/Rogue; without ever getting to play them, just the item selection and builds took the juice out of me for months. And I wasn't doing anything special; just normal numeric optimization with levels and items!

Yeah, I custom-build for each challenge, from the ground up. Each character is an artisan blend.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I custom-build for each challenge, from the ground up. Each character is an artisan blend.

Aye. At least you don't have to make four for each, though. One is work enough. And on that note, I'm never building full parties of high level characters of any vocation by myself again, unless provided with an extremely good reason.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Party of four level 20s? Barbarian (maybe with frenzied berserker), sorcerer or wizard, cleric, and Druid. All human.

[Eldariel]

Party of four level 20s? Barbarian, sorcerer (maybe wizard), cleric, and Druid.

...do you even begin to comprehend the amount of work the exact spell selection, crafting expenses, optimal expediture of the 760k, optimizing the class levels, creating inter-party strategic synergies and covering all contingencies with consumables and all holes in party's skills and passive defenses takes? And that's just the basic outfitting without getting into intricacies of more advanced ability stacking and spell optimization.

I've done it, myself. Many times, though mostly haphazardly, when it's sufficient. Each character takes me easily 10+ hours to do, and I have (or had, at any rate; lack of use of course withers the memories) quite a complete memory of all 3.X sources of relevance.


Uh, btw, Barbarian? Whuh? What'd I miss?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Uh, btw, Barbarian? Whuh? What'd I miss?

You missed the fact that barbarians are the best melee class outside tome of battle.

[Doc Roc]

You missed the fact that barbarians are the best melee class outside tome of battle.

No, that'd be spelldancer->swiftblade. And yes, I can get 9ths on that.

It takes me about 80+ hours to prep for an ECL 20 challenge with more than 8 sources open.

[The Glyphstone]

Sadly, I think the Animal Domain Cleric with Shapechange will still outdo it in melee. That's kinda what T1 classes do.

It's definitely the best non-caster core class, though (ignoring Rogue's UMD, since the whole point of that is to make the rogue into...a caster).

[Hiro Protagonest]

No, that'd be spelldancer->swiftblade. And yes, I can get 9ths on that.

It takes me about 80+ hours to prep for an ECL 20 challenge with more than 8 sources open.

Okay, the best melee class in the available sources.

[Eldariel]

Okay, the best melee class in the available sources.

So, you have something to the effect of Druid/Cleric/Wizard/Wizard depending on the sources (may need some Rogueish types). Now, pick the exact class configurations for all of them. Then pick the feats. Then synergize all that. Then pick the items. And then skills. And then do it all over again since you found hundred overlaps that you should axe. With 50+ sources, every step takes forever.

[Firechanter]

Geez, the worst I went through was building two level 18s, virtually all official sources allowed. Went for a Wizard and a Warblade who'd work in tandem, and I didn't even go to extremes there. No fancy races or templates, just gray elf and hoomin. No templates. No leadership feat because that would have meant building more characters. And that took over a month already, especially the spells.

That said: if I were in the OP's shoes, I'd try understatement. Do go for Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Whatever, but do everything very straightforward, without exploiting broken rules. Thus, no shenanigans like Infinite Candles, or anything that the "ref" could call illegal just by reading the respective rule with a different intonation.
Just plain, straightforward and practical. It will still be way enough to comfortably beat any semi-mundane party, especially if it contains a Monk.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Geez, the worst I went through was building two level 18s, virtually all official sources allowed. Went for a Wizard and a Warblade who'd work in tandem, and I didn't even go to extremes there. No fancy races or templates, just gray elf and hoomin. No templates. No leadership feat because that would have meant building more characters. And that took over a month already, especially the spells.

That said: if I were in the OP's shoes, I'd try understatement. Do go for Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Whatever, but do everything very straightforward, without exploiting broken rules. Thus, no shenanigans like Infinite Candles, or anything that the "ref" could call illegal just by reading the respective rule with a different intonation.
Just plain, straightforward and practical. It will still be way enough to comfortably beat any semi-mundane party, especially if it contains a Monk.

Heck, straight blastomancy ought to do the trick. One person MdJ to shut down their toys, and the rest just goes Time Stop + 4x DBF ftw

Estimated DC of save = 10 + 8 + (Int Mod). Now, assuming you start off with an Int of 18, then use 4 of your 5 stat points to bring that to a 22, then another +6 from an item, you've got a 28 Int, for a mod of +9.

So 10 + 9 + 8 = DC of 27.

A Monk, on the other hand, starts off with a +12 save, with maybe a +4 for stat, since his toys are dumped, for a +16.

So he's going to need 11's or better to make his save. So just under a 50% chance.

And he's making... what... 12 of them in the first round?

Yea, that Evasion ability isn't gonna be doing him much good.

Failing that, nothing says you loose' like Enervation optimization...

[Doc Roc]

Heck, straight blastomancy ought to do the trick. One person MdJ to shut down their toys, and the rest just goes Time Stop + 4x DBF ftw

Estimated DC of save = 10 + 8 + (Int Mod). Now, assuming you start off with an Int of 18, then use 4 of your 5 stat points to bring that to a 22, then another +6 from an item, you've got a 28 Int, for a mod of +9.

So 10 + 9 + 8 = DC of 27.

A Monk, on the other hand, starts off with a +12 save, with maybe a +4 for stat, since his toys are dumped, for a +16.

So he's going to need 11's or better to make his save. So just under a 50% chance.

And he's making... what... 12 of them in the first round?

Yea, that Evasion ability isn't gonna be doing him much good.

"Underestimating the competition is the best way to lose."

[Eldariel]

Heck, straight blastomancy ought to do the trick. One person MdJ to shut down their toys, and the rest just goes Time Stop + 4x DBF ftw

Estimated DC of save = 10 + 8 + (Int Mod). Now, assuming you start off with an Int of 18, then use 4 of your 5 stat points to bring that to a 22, then another +6 from an item, you've got a 28 Int, for a mod of +9.

So 10 + 9 + 8 = DC of 27.

A Monk, on the other hand, starts off with a +12 save, with maybe a +4 for stat, since his toys are dumped, for a +16.

So he's going to need 11's or better to make his save. So just under a 50% chance.

And he's making... what... 12 of them in the first round?

Yea, that Evasion ability isn't gonna be doing him much good.

Failing that, nothing says you loose' like Enervation optimization...

There was going to be at least one caster on the opposing team. "Crude and inefficient" isn't the way to go, when dealing with Foresight/Celerity. It is, of course, useful to have Disjunction in your repertoire, but it doesn't automatically destroy items so it's far from a guarantee that it completely cripples the opposition. DBF has the issue of being fire elemental; Searing Spell isn't available so this is somewhat unreliable. I do think if you wish to brute force it, you would do well to look at Gate & Shapechange rather than DBF.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

"Underestimating the competition is the best way to lose."

80d6 per caster is enough to crater anything without immunities. Quite bluntly, with the resources available to them, they won't be able to generate the sort of 'no' buttons to prevent it.

[Eldariel]

80d6 per caster is enough to crater anything without immunities. Quite bluntly, with the resources available to them, they won't be able to generate the sort of 'no' buttons to prevent it.


I got a challenge from this "bully" type in our group. We're both to make a team of 4 level 20 characters.

I was thinking of going 2 Cleric and 2 Wizards, but he might just Anti-Magic me.

I don't really want to use a Fighter, but I might have to.

I think he'll use at least one Wizard.

All we have is the CoW, Players Handbook 1, and 2, and other Core only books. (If i haven't listed them), we also have Savage Species, not that it'll matter much.

I also know for sure he'll use a Monk.

I'm fairly sure all the resources needed are right there. We're talking Contingency & Celerity at the very least. Prepare for spell duel. Also, 80d6 doesn't quite kill level 20 melee types reliably; averages 280 damage, while melee types average ~300s HP. Nothing a Rod of Maximize Spell wouldn't fix, of course.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm fairly sure all the resources needed are right there. We're talking Contingency & Celerity at the very least. Prepare for spell duel. Also, 80d6 doesn't quite kill level 20 melee types reliably; averages 280 damage, while melee types average ~300s HP. Nothing a Rod of Maximize Spell wouldn't fix, of course.

Well, that's per caster. You've got four wizards here. One MdJ's, the other three blasts. So that's 240d6 damage.

[faceroll]

MdJ has a save associated with it. A will save. Something with a bad will save should have +15 to it in kit; something with a good will save and high wisdom will easily only be failing DC 27 will saves on 1's (like a monk).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

MdJ has a save associated with it. A will save. Something with a bad will save should have +15 to it in kit; something with a good will save and high wisdom will easily only be failing DC 27 will saves on 1's (like a monk).

It's easier to stack DC bonuses than it is save bonuses. Particularly considering the resources available.

Also, only items have a save. Buffs are auto-dispelled.


All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined. That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), and each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item. An item in a creature’s possession uses its own Will save bonus or its possessor’s Will save bonus, whichever is higher.

[The Glyphstone]

MdJ has a save associated with it. A will save. Something with a bad will save should have +15 to it in kit; something with a good will save and high wisdom will easily only be failing DC 27 will saves on 1's (like a monk).

There's no save against the dispel function though. Wrecking their items is just gravy, the value of MDJ is auto-dispel of any buffs they have active pre-fight. If you come to a fight prebuffed and your opponent doesn't, you basically win, and casting MDJ makes that happen.

EDIT: Greater Celerity-ed.

[faceroll]

MDJ is best against mundanes because it breaks their magical stuff, which means they will have a harder time escaping a forcecage, flying (though with winged template in play, no big deal), dealing with ability damage, drain, touch attacks, etc.

I'm anticipating you won't be allowed to go into battle with buffs up, as it puts the casters at a greater disadvantage.

[Firechanter]

Concerning the stats: Tomes and Manuals are core. So if you start with an 18, pump 5 level increases in it, afford a +5 book, get a +6 item, and presto you are at 34. Which is actually enough to give you _2_ 9th level bonus spells. =D

[Eldariel]

Concerning the stats: Tomes and Manuals are core. So if you start with an 18, pump 5 level increases in it, afford a +5 book, get a +6 item, and presto you are at 34. Which is actually enough to give you _2_ 9th level bonus spells. =D

3rd can get gained from racial stat bonus (e.g. Gray Elf)

[Firechanter]

What? Nowai! For 3 9th-level bonus spells, you'd need Int 44+.
However, if you don't want to Specialize, a Gray Elf can always be an Elf Generalist Wizard, which nets him another 9th level spell. So without further shenanigans, the magician will have a whopping 7 9th-level spells per day.

Edit: I made a little booboo in my previous post: Int 34 will only give you an extra 9th level spell if you have the Spellcasting Prodigy feat.

[faceroll]

What? Nowai! For 3 9th-level bonus spells, you'd need Int 44+.
However, if you don't want to Specialize, a Gray Elf can always be an Elf Generalist Wizard, which nets him another 9th level spell. So without further shenanigans, the magician will have a whopping 7 9th-level spells per day.

Edit: I made a little booboo in my previous post: Int 34 will only give you an extra 9th level spell if you have the Spellcasting Prodigy feat.

Elf Generalist isn't in the allowed books, is it? Old Age gets you +2 int, with -3 to physical stats.

[Doc Roc]

Elf Generalist isn't in the allowed books, is it? Old Age gets you +2 int, with -3 to physical stats.

Go Venerable, Go Shapechange.

[Eldariel]

Go Venerable, Go Shapechange.

We also have, within our disposal, the rather distasteful options of Polymorph Any Object, which can indeed be used to acquire Intelligence-score, and Awaken which can be used to stack Cha increases upon each other (no theoretical limit, really - you can level drain the HD away and thanks to Polymorph-line, the type isn't much of an obstacle). After this, we can still add on Venerable.

Though, as I mistakenly said, it's 2 spells you get from Gray Elf, not 3. Spellcasting Prodigy should not really enter the discussion at hands, since it is hardly relevant.

[Doc Roc]

We also have, within our disposal, the rather distasteful options of Polymorph Any Object, which can indeed be used to acquire Intelligence-score, and Awaken which can be used to stack Cha increases upon each other (no theoretical limit, really - you can level drain the HD away and thanks to Polymorph-line, the type isn't much of an obstacle). After this, we can still add on Venerable.

Though, as I mistakenly said, it's 2 spells you get from Gray Elf, not 3. Spellcasting Prodigy should not really enter the discussion at hands, since it is hardly relevant.

Still, with no word from Sims, I think adopting a Wait-And-See might be of worth.

[Eldariel]

Still, with no word from Sims, I think adopting a Wait-And-See might be of worth.

Mmhm, indeed.