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SleepyShadow
2011-04-06, 12:51 PM
Ever been involved in a group where one or more PCs added nothing to the group? It could be the player's fault (ex. A Bard/Cleric/Barbarian), or it could be that one party member is so powerful that the rest of the group is just an audience for The Awesome Show.

The game essentially degenerates into something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

Let me hear your stories :smallbiggrin:

I'll go ahead and start. This took place during last night's game session. The group consisted of four party members:

Ja'Aku, the elf Favored Soul 4/Ordained Champion 5 (My character)
Sarissa, the human Cleric 1/Monk 6/Sacred Fist 1/Shiba Protector 1
Terragon, the Treant (lvl 9 using Savage Species)
Char, the Necropolitan Dread Necromancer 4/Dread Witch 4

It was the climactic end battle to the adventure, with the party having finally located the people responsible for the local paladin's murder. Unfortunately, they were ready for us. They had an army of 30+ warriors (who were being treated as a swarm) to slow us down, while the main baddies (A tiefling sorcerer, a half-fiend druid, and a vrock bard) were sitting on top of a tower to lob spells down on us. To make matters worse, a bad-ass shadow dancer was hidden in the crowd of warriors, taking hefty sneak attacks whenever she could.

We quickly settled on a plan to have Ja'Aku and Sarissa ride over to the tower (we were the only ones with ranks in Ride) and put a stop to the spell casters, while Terragon dealt with the mob of warriors. Char's job was to take out the shadow dancer, since she was the only one immune to the sneak attack damage.

When Char's player insisted that we were working too hard at this, I should have realized that the battle was going to be a lot less fun that everyone had been hoping.

At first everything was going according to plan. Sarissa and my character got to the top of the tower within two rounds and we were able to engage the spell casters. Terragon was having a bit of trouble, but he had the HP to survive the "swarm's" auto damage. Char had easily done her part in taking out the shadow dancer, using a horde of summoned zombie owlbears to grapple her and rip her apart.

It was at this point that things started going down hill.

I got off a full attack on the sorcerer, and Sarissa tripped the druid. The vrock bard buffed the sorcerer, I resisted the Charm spell, and the druid spent the full round to get up again.

Then it was Char's turn.

The already-summoned owlbears killed off the rest of the warriors, then Char summoned a zombie troll on top of the roof of the tower and threw the sorcerer off the top, killing him with fall damage. With the treant doing nothing but healing, it went to my turn again. I Mass Align Weapon, thinking that we'd need the assist to punch through the vrock's DR. Sarissa tripped the druid again and curb stomped her.

The vrock bard flew up away from the roof, casting darkness to prevent we melee characters from getting him. That didn't stop the Dread Necromancer though. She summoned ANOTHER zombie owlbear in mid air on top of the vrock ... being a bard, he failed the opposed grapple and came crashing to the ground.

For the remainder of the 'fight', the rest of us played Left For Dead 2 for the better part of an hour while the Dread Necromancer poked the head bad-guy to death using Charnel Touch while he was held helpless by all of the summoned monsters.

TroubleBrewing
2011-04-06, 01:20 PM
since she was the only one immune to the sneak attack damage.

Isn't there a Treant in the party? Plants are immune to sneak attack.

Gnaeus
2011-04-06, 01:24 PM
Yeah, and you can't summon Zombie Owlbears in the air to fall on monsters either. Oh well.

gbprime
2011-04-06, 01:26 PM
This is the dark side of character optimization, or Superman Syndrome. If one of you gets to play Superman and the others play Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, then there are going to be a lot of instances where most of the party just sits around and waits for Superman to make everything all better.

A good DM knows that you either have to force balance on the PC's through equipment or opportunities, say no, or make sure that the campaign's focus is on something OTHER than the one thing that most of the party is totally outclassed on. (But when that comes to combat, that's often not an option.)

The campaign I'm currently playing in had this issue for a while. Main damage dealer could achieve size huge with a 2 handed weapon, a 28 strength, power attack, and an extra attack each round. The other melee combatants could crank out 1d8+6. The campaign limped along like this with no improvement until after level 10. The Swash/Rogue and the Paladin would engage a grunt for 3-4 rounds each while the Barbarian pulped 2 or 3 per round.

Thanks to levels, artifice, and some custom DM PrC's, the Swash/Rogue and the Paladin have caught up by level 14, one with 14 sneak attack dice that work on constructs and undead too, and the other with a near-artifact (+5 Holy Collision Warhammer) and a near-bottomless supply of smites.

Yes, 14 sneak attack dice at level 14. We have an Artificer in the group and a DM who (A) doesn't say no very often and (B) doesn't pay much attention to Wealth by Level. The Barbarian now has trouble keeping up with this guy.

Tavar
2011-04-06, 01:26 PM
You can only summon things onto a surface that can support them...

Plus, how close was he? Summoning spells usually have a pretty short range, though I'm not familiar with the Summon Undead spells.

Gnaeus
2011-04-06, 01:30 PM
Short. 25+5/2 levels

gbprime
2011-04-06, 01:32 PM
You can only summon things onto a surface that can support them...

Plus, how close was he? Summoning spells usually have a pretty short range, though I'm not familiar with the Summon Undead spells.

Close Range. 10 Squares or so by that level. not tough.

Zaranthan
2011-04-06, 01:37 PM
...Char summoned a zombie troll on top of the roof of the tower and threw the sorcerer off the top, killing him with fall damage.
...

The vrock bard flew up away from the roof, casting darkness to prevent we melee characters from getting him. That didn't stop the Dread Necromancer though. She summoned ANOTHER zombie owlbear in mid air on top of the vrock ... being a bard, he failed the opposed grapple and came crashing to the ground.

Just a quick rules nitpick here: summoning spells take one full round to cast, not just a full-round action. If you cast summon on your turn, the monster doesn't appear until your next action. The entire party should've had two actions before that zombie appeared, and no way the vrock was going to hold still waiting for the owlbear to land on it (especially since vrocks have average maneuverability and thus cannot hover, nor was it likely to be within the 45 foot range of the spell if it was above a 20' RADIUS darkness spell placed on top of a "tower").


For the remainder of the 'fight', the rest of us played Left For Dead 2 for the better part of an hour while the Dread Necromancer poked the head bad-guy to death using Charnel Touch while he was held helpless by all of the summoned monsters.

Another rule fail: summons last 1 round per level. That's 8 rounds for your level 8 DN, less for the earlier "hordes" that spent a few rounds chasing the shadow dancer. It took your DM an hour to roll 8 attacks? You can only have four critters grappling one opponent, so even all those grapple checks should've been quick (same numbers on each one, and the zombies only need to win once or twice per round to keep him held down).


This seems like one of those "ZOMG Tier 1 optimizer in a group of T3 roleplayers" questions where everybody chimes in with six flavors of "sit him down outside the game and discuss the need for party balance," but really, y'all just need to read the rules a little better. Summoning is powerful, but its weakness is that it's not as responsive as you seem to be letting it be.

gbprime
2011-04-06, 01:54 PM
Just a quick rules nitpick here: summoning spells take one full round to cast, not just a full-round action. If you cast summon on your turn, the monster doesn't appear until your next action.

Unless you spend a feat on it, yeah. But I'm betting he didn't, since they were summoning non-flying things in midair and the Treant wasn't immune to sneak attacks and...

Gamer Girl
2011-04-06, 02:01 PM
This is more of a case of not exactly flowing the rules. If you break, bend or ignore rules, then a character can become powerful.

Lets take Char. 8th level right, but a 7th level spellcaster. So that is a maximum of 3rd level spells. So Summon Undead III. So at the most she could summon two skeletal owlbears with one spell(note zombie owlbears are not listed in the spell). Now two skeleton owlbears don't exactly make a horde.

So the skeletal owlbears just automatically hit and kill the shadowdancer? With a Bab of +2 and doing maybe 10-20 damage. And just how do two undead owlbears take out a whole 'swarm' of 30+ warriors in one round.

Did she somehow summon 30+ undead owlbears with a 3rd level spell? Or summon like 15 undead owlbears that each had the feat Great Cleave?

And exactly how tall was this 'tower', 30 feet? So the undead troll can toss the sorcerer off, sure. But it's not that much damage..1d6 per 10'. And if the tower was more then 50', would have been out of range.

And the summoning of the undead owlbear in mid air is just blatant rule breaking. You simply can't do that with a summoning spell.



So this is more of what happens when you don't follow the rules, or make up a bunch of custom homebrew rules. Simply put, a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer 4/Dread Witch 4 is not that powerful.

Plus, in this case, the DM clearly did not have a good strategy. What about this 'tower' anyway? You rode on your horse what 10 feet to the tower and then climbed to the top in one round? The bad guys did not lock the door? They did not protect the tower? They did not take shots at you?

For that matter, while Char was standing there being a target, why did none of the bad guys attack her?

Cartigan
2011-04-06, 02:01 PM
This is the dark side of character optimization, or Superman Syndrome. If one of you gets to play Superman and the others play Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, then there are going to be a lot of instances where most of the party just sits around and waits for Superman to make everything all better.

A good DM knows that you either have to force balance on the PC's through equipment or opportunities, say no, or make sure that the campaign's focus is on something OTHER than the one thing that most of the party is totally outclassed on. (But when that comes to combat, that's often not an option.)

Seriously, you can unequally distribute loot or opportunities as much as you want, but unless you are giving Superman an Amulet of Green Kryptonite as his loot, he will always eventually show up Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen. It doesn't really matter if Jimmy Olsen has a Green Power Ring or that Lois Lane has Amazon Powerbands.

The only way to deal with this is either make sure everyone knows you are playing the Justice League of America and everybody better be built like that or head it off at the pass and restrict all options all players have to build their characters.

Gnaeus
2011-04-06, 02:11 PM
The only way to deal with this is either make sure everyone knows you are playing the Justice League of America and everybody better be built like that or head it off at the pass and restrict all options all players have to build their characters.

It is a way. Maybe a good way. Not the only way. Nothing wrong with superman and Jimmy being in the same party, as long as Jimmy understands what he is building and wants to play that.

Tengu_temp
2011-04-06, 02:23 PM
If 1-2 PCs are overpowered
What to do:
1. Ask the other players if they feel overshadowed. If they're okay with how things are now, all's fine and you don't have to do anything!
2. If the other players are bothered, ask them if they want to rebuild their characters to match the stronger ones. Make it clear that "no" is a perfectly acceptable option. If they need/want help from the other players, they should provide it.
3. If the other players don't want to go up in power, ask the overpowered ones to pipe down and/or rebuild their characters into something less overpowered. Making sure you're not leaving the rest of the group behind is a skill every good (and polite) powergamer should possess.

What not to do:
1. Give the weaker characters more items and special abilities. The player with the overpowered character will feel like the un-favorite child who gets less toys.
2. Force the other players to rebuild. They're the majority, they shouldn't bend to the playstyle of the minority here.
3. Make the overpowered PC(s) handle one, tougher enemy while the others handle something weaker. This will just make the rest of the group feel even more like they're sidekicks to their overpowered friend.

If 1-2 PCs are underpowered
What to do:
1. Ask them if they feel overshadowed. If they're okay with how things are now, all's fine and you don't have to do anything!
2. Look at your DMing. Maybe those PCs are built for a specific thing and you're not providing it? It might be worthwhile to put more of that thing in your games. If that's not the case, or doing so won't fit your campaign, go to point 3.
3. If they are bothered, ask them if they want to rebuild their characters to match the rest of the party. If they need/want help from the other players, they should provide it.
4. If they don't want to rebuild their characters but still feel overshadowed, they're on their own. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

What not to do:
1. Give those underpowered characters more items and special abilities. The rest of the group will feel like you're playing favorites.
2. Force the other players to rebuild. They're the majority, they shouldn't bend to the playstyle of the minority here.

And the worst thing a DM can do in either case is to ignore the matter entirely, thinking that it's not your job and that the players should handle this between themselves. Such mindset has no place in a modern RPG group.

gbprime
2011-04-06, 02:28 PM
That still doesn't help when you have a player whose wizard is still leading off with Flaming Sphere every combat when the players are 14th level. (True story.) Sometimes you just have to supercharge the character for their player to compete.

And I don't think that Superman will feel left out if the other players get trinkets to make them better in combat. If you're spending your game episodes single-handedly mopping up everything the DM throws at you, are you seriously going to sulk because the Paladin got a trinket that makes him suck a little less?

Tengu_temp
2011-04-06, 02:35 PM
That still doesn't help when you have a player whose wizard is still leading off with Flaming Sphere every combat when the players are 14th level. (True story.) Sometimes you just have to supercharge the character for their player to compete.

Well, if someone can't be bothered to learn the basics of the game, then he shouldn't complain that he's being left behind. Especially since most RPGs aren't exactly rocket science. Either give the player a crash course on how to pull his weight or offer him to rebuild to something simpler to play. And if he doesn't mind being useless, see point 1 of my list.


And I don't think that Superman will feel left out if the other players get trinkets to make them better in combat. If you're spending your game episodes single-handedly mopping up everything the DM throws at you, are you seriously going to sulk because the Paladin got a trinket that makes him suck a little less?

Some players won't mind, but I know that many will complain when you penalize them for having a strong build by giving them less cool stuff. And I think they have the right to complain. Everyone likes to get cool stuff, after all.

Zaranthan
2011-04-06, 02:42 PM
If you're spending your game episodes single-handedly mopping up everything the DM throws at you, are you seriously going to sulk because the Paladin got a trinket that makes him suck a little less?

Some players might, yes. They did all the hard work of coming up with an effective, powerful character and the guy who doesn't know what his AC is gets a +5 bullcrap bonus to everything. Party balance is important, but that's just blatant favoritism. If you were going to reward mediocrity, you should've told everybody upfront. Maybe he would've made Aquaman instead of Superman if he knew he was going to be just as powerful.

Game theory aside, though, this isn't about one player bringing Superman and everybody else bringing Squirrel Girl. This is about players and a DM who either haven't read the rules, or have made a whole bunch of houserules that make a reasonable approach to combat (summoning meatshields to beat the tar out of dangerous opponents) incredibly overpowered.

Vladislav
2011-04-06, 02:50 PM
Some players might, yes.From my experience, these players very often achieve their goal of being the best player of their group by virtue of being the only player of their group.


Maybe he would've made Aquaman instead of Superman if he knew he was going to be just as powerful.Maybe he should have. Aquaman is an interesting character.

The_Scourge
2011-04-06, 02:57 PM
My group ran into Angel Summoner syndrome in a previous epic level campaign. The party was as follows.
DemiGod Orc fighter- party leader and tank.
Dwarf cleric/radiant servant- main healer secondary tank
Human cleric/warpriest- secondary healer had several abilities that kept the party from dying
Human wizard/mage of the arcane order- blasting and some utility
Human warlock- party face and utility
Awakened rat sorcerer/sand shaper- debuffs and other "make the enemy sad" spells, secondary face

And our BMX bandit:
Al, the human rogue/wizard/spellwarp sniper. Normally not such a horrid build, except when you have 10 leevels of rogue, therefore a buttload less spells and caster level than the rest of the party. It didn't help that the player wasn't the most creative tactician. The best he could do was Ray of Web. Not exactly stellar. The biggest problem though was his constant complaining, he'd bitch and whine about his inability to do anything but outright refused help.

navar100
2011-04-06, 03:09 PM
I was once in a gaming group where the halfling sorcerer casted Spider Climb the first round of every combat. Didn't matter what the situation was, he would cast Spider Climb and take some rounds walking on walls and ceilings to hide then cast occasional attack spells. I think even the DM was tired of this. Finally in a treasure horde we found Boots of Spider Climbing. Everyone knew exactly who was going to get that item.

bloodtide
2011-04-06, 03:10 PM
That still doesn't help when you have a player whose wizard is still leading off with Flaming Sphere every combat when the players are 14th level. (True story.) Sometimes you just have to supercharge the character for their player to compete.

So a group of 14th level folks find Flaming Sphere 'all powerful'? The second level spell? I wonder how that works? Are you only fighting 1 or 2 Cr monsters? What happens when you go up against anything of 5CR or more...they just laugh at the Flaming Sphere....


On the OP though, I can see where the DM let a lot slide. Just look at the Vrock for example. It wanted to get away from the fight, so it flew. Guess the vrock just forgot it could teleport at will. And a vrock bard could not escape a grapple...well we could mention teleport, again, but also a vrock can use...telekinesis. And don't forget it's natural strength of 23 and it's Bab of +10. A vrock is not exactly 'just a bard'. And it could have used mirror image too...

Amnestic
2011-04-06, 03:16 PM
Maybe he would've made Aquaman instead of Superman if he knew he was going to be just as powerful.


Just as powerful?

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lanprdtox21qesfhho1_500.jpg

The King of Atlantis laughs at the puny "Man of Steel".

Morph Bark
2011-04-06, 03:29 PM
On the OP though, I can see where the DM let a lot slide. Just look at the Vrock for example. It wanted to get away from the fight, so it flew. Guess the vrock just forgot it could teleport at will. And a vrock bard could not escape a grapple...well we could mention teleport, again, but also a vrock can use...telekinesis. And don't forget it's natural strength of 23 and it's Bab of +10. A vrock is not exactly 'just a bard'. And it could have used mirror image too...

To be fair, the DM from the OP seems a lot like the way I used to DM. Nowadays I make sure I know the monsters' abilities better, though I might still allow for summon spells to drop bearbombs (be they zombie or owl). Probably because my players just love that tactic so much, even though it is hardly their main schtick.

SleepyShadow
2011-04-06, 03:35 PM
This is more of a case of not exactly flowing the rules. If you break, bend or ignore rules, then a character can become powerful.

Lets take Char. 8th level right, but a 7th level spellcaster. So that is a maximum of 3rd level spells. So Summon Undead III. So at the most she could summon two skeletal owlbears with one spell(note zombie owlbears are not listed in the spell). Now two skeleton owlbears don't exactly make a horde.

So the skeletal owlbears just automatically hit and kill the shadowdancer? With a Bab of +2 and doing maybe 10-20 damage. And just how do two undead owlbears take out a whole 'swarm' of 30+ warriors in one round.

Did she somehow summon 30+ undead owlbears with a 3rd level spell? Or summon like 15 undead owlbears that each had the feat Great Cleave?

And exactly how tall was this 'tower', 30 feet? So the undead troll can toss the sorcerer off, sure. But it's not that much damage..1d6 per 10'. And if the tower was more then 50', would have been out of range.

And the summoning of the undead owlbear in mid air is just blatant rule breaking. You simply can't do that with a summoning spell.



So this is more of what happens when you don't follow the rules, or make up a bunch of custom homebrew rules. Simply put, a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer 4/Dread Witch 4 is not that powerful.

Plus, in this case, the DM clearly did not have a good strategy. What about this 'tower' anyway? You rode on your horse what 10 feet to the tower and then climbed to the top in one round? The bad guys did not lock the door? They did not protect the tower? They did not take shots at you?

For that matter, while Char was standing there being a target, why did none of the bad guys attack her?

The owlbears only have +9 to hit, but they have +14 to grapple. That's why they killed the Shadow Dancer so easily.

We tower breachers spent a full round riding to the tower, then another full round to get to the top using the stairs on the inside of the tower. Yes, the doors were locked, but a Shatter spell fixes locked doors pretty well.:smallsmile:

As for the treant, we knew he was also immune to sneak attacks, but his high HP was needed to tank the warrior "swarm".

The DM is inexperienced, so forgive him on the improper use of Vrock abilities. However, even I did not know that you could not summon creatures in the air. That is something to bring up. Thank you for pointing that out.

Arbane
2011-04-06, 03:41 PM
So a group of 14th level folks find Flaming Sphere 'all powerful'? The second level spell? I wonder how that works? Are you only fighting 1 or 2 Cr monsters? What happens when you go up against anything of 5CR or more...they just laugh at the Flaming Sphere....


Other way around, I suspect - this is a character who SHOULD be ultra-powerful, but who's too fond of one of their weakest spells.

gbprime
2011-04-06, 03:51 PM
Well, if someone can't be bothered to learn the basics of the game, then he shouldn't complain that he's being left behind. Especially since most RPGs aren't exactly rocket science. Either give the player a crash course on how to pull his weight or offer him to rebuild to something simpler to play.

Well he's just one of those players who thinks things through but somehow doesn't comprehend the whole picture. Flaming Sphere is a great source of continuous damage when you're 3rd level, sure, but he never seemed to understand that after a while it was just wasting time. The monsters ignored it, the other players would tell him to do something else, but it just didn't sink in...

And it's not like he was new to gaming. He'd been playing D+D every weekend for 30 years. So a crash course or a character rebuild aren't going to help, and relegating him to sucking just isn't any fun.

Every group has someone who fails at attack math. Don't let them fail, prop them up. If the game is fun, the other players should be fine with it.

Morph Bark
2011-04-06, 03:59 PM
Other way around, I suspect - this is a character who SHOULD be ultra-powerful, but who's too fond of one of their weakest spells.

I, for one, would love to see someone prestidigitate an enemy to death.

Doug Lampert
2011-04-06, 04:00 PM
Some players might, yes. They did all the hard work of coming up with an effective, powerful character and the guy who doesn't know what his AC is gets a +5 bullcrap bonus to everything. Party balance is important, but that's just blatant favoritism. If you were going to reward mediocrity, you should've told everybody upfront. Maybe he would've made Aquaman instead of Superman if he knew he was going to be just as powerful.

Extra gear for some characters not only invalidates various character choices and represents obvious playing favorites, but it doesn't actually work.

Joe Optimizer is likely to insist on an equal share of the loot by value. This isn't unreasonable, and I'd argue that doing otherwise is almost certainly playing out of character. So at the absolute worst he'll sell his share of the gear and use the money to buy replacement gear that actually works.

Anyone seriously think that an optimizer and a non-optimizer will be ballanced by given the optimizer 1/2 WBL? And that's quite aside from the fact that if he's an optimized crafter he's not behind at all.

So to give someone that +5 bullcrap bonus (I like that description) and have it ballance anything, it has to be something OTHER than gear or you have to be in a non-standard setting where the optimzer can't buy and sell stuff and also can't craft stuff.

If you are going to houserule builds that way, why are you playing D&D 3.x?

You've lost the massive published support (plublished stuff doesn't give a +5 bullcrap bonus, tell you how big a bullcrap bonus should be, tell you what level the bullcrap bonus needs to include flight and other special abilities at, or tell you how to ballance encounters with these characters).

And when you started giving special bonuses to non-optimizers you've DELIBERATELY destroyed the metagame character building aspects. Stomped and burned them.

If you want to force balance and your players have drastically different optimization levels then play a simpler and better ballanced game, there probably aren't more than 10,000 or so of those published, many of them for free on the web.

Pick one of:

1) Get everyone to agree on an approximate optimization level and play to that. Tier whatever. Blaster wizards only. Casters buff the fighter first (this is actually good optimization anyway).

2) Get everyone to agree to have Superman and Jimmy Olsen on the same team, I've both played and run Ars Magica, this actually works fine when people are upfront about it and the system is designed for it.

3) Play something other than D&D, ideally something with fairly restrictive build options (really stripped down GURPS or HERO, Pendragon, whatever).

DougL

Tengu_temp
2011-04-06, 04:13 PM
And it's not like he was new to gaming. He'd been playing D+D every weekend for 30 years. So a crash course or a character rebuild aren't going to help, and relegating him to sucking just isn't any fun.

From your description it sounds like he doesn't care that his character is ineffectual, and has a good time anyway. If that's the case, then there's nothing to fix here - the DM should just bear in mind that one of the PCs is not pulling his weight and plan the encounters accordingly.

bloodtide
2011-04-06, 04:40 PM
My Better Superfluous Party Members Example, of one trick ponies

The group includes:
*Half-Orc rouge, all bulit around the Trip idea
*A blaster half dragon sorcerer, that just blows things up
*The elven archer, with lots a arrows and archery

The game goes on good enough for a couple sessions. Then, as part of the plot, the group enters the 'Dungeon of Re'tog'. Almost immediately, the three above group members become useless.

1.The half-orc finds it hard to trip monsters with four(or more) legs, not to mention things that have no legs(like ozzes). With just about no effect attack, and not being able to trip, she mostly sits back and holds the torch.

2.The half-dragon blaster has the big problem with all the small spaces. The hallways are 10' wide, by 30' long; room are 20x20, and there are low cleanings, pillars and other obstructions. Basically, he has a hard time blasting any large group of foes. Or even just attacking a single foe or two(not wanting to 'waste' a big area attack spell on a single monster). And this is on top of the avoidance of effecting other members of the group with spells, as most blasting spells will hit everyone in a 20'x20-' room. And he had nearly nothing to fight in melee. Mostly he just sat back and used his claws and bite to fight.

3.The elven archer had much the same problem as the half-dragon. He had no effective melee attacks or defenses. And in a dungeon setting, there was no where for him to 'go hide'(he would often climb a tree and snipe out in the wild). And he also had the shooting into melee problem, just like the sorcerer. so he mostly hung back and got a shot off or two at monsters that ran away.

4.And all three of them were useless at any other activity other then their one trick. They could not help open stuck doors, search for items, and so forth. The sorcerer had no spells that were not 'blasting', so could do nothing like Knock or Levitate. The same was true for all of them with skills, they had lots of ranks only in the skills that helped there one trick.


The other three players, a human bard, a dwarven cleric, and a human fighter, were all much more rounded characters, and had no problems.

Tavar
2011-04-06, 05:14 PM
The blaster...sounds like it's not just a one trick pony, it's a poorly built one trick pony.

The rogue...what skills help tripping? And why isn't he going for the flank(on non-SA immune creatures)? It's hard to believe he's invested all of his resources into Tripping and nothing else.

For the Archer, what class is he using? Depending on the class that's entirely believable. Archers are incredibly difficult to do in DnD, and the class/skill paradigm makes filling other rolls difficult.

nedz
2011-04-06, 05:25 PM
+1 to Tavar's points.

Well built characters actually have options, not power. The rouge does seem to have been played badly though. Maybe you need to add in some large chambers to stop them getting bored, but it's really the players fault.
Still the game is built around character development, so they can grow out of this limitation.
The Sorceror will learn more spells, eventually. The Archer should have a melle weapon, even if they're not very good with it. And the rogue should have plenty to do: like scouting ahead, dealing with traps/locks, and flanking for SA.

bloodtide
2011-04-06, 05:25 PM
Yes, the three characters in my example were all poorly built characters. The rouge for example only had a whip for a weapon, and had nothing else.

But they are good examples of Superfluous Party Members.

nedz
2011-04-07, 02:01 PM
Yes, the three characters in my example were all poorly built characters. The rouge for example only had a whip for a weapon, and had nothing else.

But they are good examples of Superfluous Party Members.

What !
A Rouge not having a dagger, at the very least, is an example of very poor play.
Only had a Whip, really !

The Glyphstone
2011-04-07, 03:56 PM
Yes, the three characters in my example were all poorly built characters. The rouge for example only had a whip for a weapon, and had nothing else.

But they are good examples of Superfluous Party Members.

Okay, when a commoner with a scythe would have been more effective, I think you've gone past Superfluous Party Member and into Fails At Life. We're not talking Superman and Jimmy Olsen, this is Superman and the Wonder Twins level.

Firechanter
2011-04-07, 06:10 PM
Heh, funny. We played the same module once. I don't exactly remember how it went, but the druid surrendered pretty early, the tiefling managed to escape using a portal or somesuch, and my Cleric had a tumble in the clouds with the Vrock... unfortunately, I pokered too highly and didn't cast Dimensional Anchor on him - in fact I wanted to planeshift him to Baator to have fun with the Devils; I even got through his SR, but he made his bloody Will save.
(At the level we were, I couldn't have gone toe to toe with the Vrock and no-one else could fly.) In the following round, he teleported out. :(

In the respective party, we had several instances of superfluous party members.
In one case, the player was a D&D noob so we can't really blame her for gimping her character... started out with a Fighter, then got envious of all the spellcasters doing awesome stuff, and multiclassed into Wizard. Nuff said? After a while, we made her a new char, a Druid. She was still clueless, but at least she was having fun turning into a Bear and beating up things.

The other case was a ranger dual-wielding scimitars. Need I say more?

SleepyShadow
2011-04-08, 12:07 PM
@Firechanter: +1 internet for having recognized that old module :smallsmile:

Last night's session was much the same, unfortunately. We picked up a two more players, so in addition to the previously stated party we now had a Rogue/Cleric/Black Flame Zealot (named Marie) and a Fighter Ranger built as an archer (named 'The Crimson River').

The beginning of the adventure went well enough. After we climbed to the top of a giant spire inside a canyon, we were attacked by a Moon Calf. The archer got knocked inside the spire and spent the remainder of the battle unconscious from falling damage. The moon calf then grappled the dread necro and the BFZ faster than you could say "tentacle porn". :smalltongue:

The rest of the battle was fairly uneventful as the treant, the monk chick, and my character proceeded to beat the living daylights out of it. Go team melee :smallbiggrin:

Happy Fun Time was short lived, however. Not long after that, we encountered a weird Gibbering Mouther Vampire. It killed Terragon in the surprise round, but right after that Char enslaved it using Command Undead. Char then proceeded to waltz through the dungeon with the ooze-vamp in front, soloing the next three battles against a dozen or so four-armed gorillas while the rest of the party sat in the back and watched.

At one point, Marie's player even posed the question, "When do we get to fight?"

Char's player replied with nothing less than, "You don't have to. The vampire will take care of it."

Doug Lampert
2011-04-08, 12:41 PM
Happy Fun Time was short lived, however. Not long after that, we encountered a weird Gibbering Mouther Vampire. It killed Terragon in the surprise round, but right after that Char enslaved it using Command Undead. Char then proceeded to waltz through the dungeon with the ooze-vamp in front, soloing the next three battles against a dozen or so four-armed gorillas while the rest of the party sat in the back and watched.

At one point, Marie's player even posed the question, "When do we get to fight?"

Char's player replied with nothing less than, "You don't have to. The vampire will take care of it."

At this point the GM should call the session. Seriously, it's over. Do something else, get out Settlers of Catan, whatever.

PCs plus a powerful regenerating monster >> PCs alone. They win against anything they were supposed to have a chance against.

There's no reason to play out combats that are a forgone conclusion, let the DM total up the loot and any XP outside of game-time.

The interesting question is that Command Undead isn't all that powerful against intelligent undead, and it has a limited duration.... What are you going to do with the vampire long term?

MarkusWolfe
2011-04-08, 12:52 PM
What !
A Rouge not having a dagger, at the very least, is an example of very poor play.
Only had a Whip, really !

I know! At least get a dagger whip. It doesn't even sound like he was trying!

SleepyShadow
2011-04-08, 12:59 PM
At this point the GM should call the session. Seriously, it's over. Do something else, get out Settlers of Catan, whatever.

PCs plus a powerful regenerating monster >> PCs alone. They win against anything they were supposed to have a chance against.

There's no reason to play out combats that are a forgone conclusion, let the DM total up the loot and any XP outside of game-time.

The interesting question is that Command Undead isn't all that powerful against intelligent undead, and it has a limited duration.... What are you going to do with the vampire long term?

It's okay. Near the end of the session the BFZ, the monk, and my character triple teamed the vamp-thing and killed it while the dread necro was looting bodies. Our will saves were all to high for it to dominate us or use confusion, and his to-hit was too low to retaliate against us. The night ended with an irate necromancer and a nod of approval from the DM.

Ravens_cry
2011-04-08, 02:31 PM
In every group, every game is going to have times where one or more characters are less then useful. Part of the job of the DM is to try and give everyone a time to shine. If done clumsily, it can feel cheesy, but if done right it can give everyone a feeling of having contributed to the success of the party.

Amphetryon
2011-04-08, 02:44 PM
What not to do:
1. Give those underpowered characters more items and special abilities. The rest of the group will feel like you're playing favorites.Strongly disagree. If the other members of the party are unhappy about being forced to compensate for a player character who - through stubbornness, inexperience, or some belief in Stormwind - is not able to pull his weight, part of a DM's job is to fix that problem. If the player isn't willing to rebuild for whatever reason, the items that player gets may need to be somewhat better to compensate.

Granted, my group is a variable size in a public library, so my current DMing experiences may be atypical.

Qwertystop
2011-04-08, 03:19 PM
I, for one, would love to see someone prestidigitate an enemy to death.

You can use it to create small brittle objects. Create one inside the throat of an enemy. Might need to restrain them first. Also, you might need a scrying spell if you need to see where it is appearing. Or put it in their heart.

The Glyphstone
2011-04-08, 03:42 PM
You can use it to create small brittle objects. Create one inside the throat of an enemy. Might need to restrain them first. Also, you might need a scrying spell if you need to see where it is appearing. Or put it in their heart.

You need line of sight/effect, not just visuals - Prestidigitation is not on the list of things you can cast through Greater Scrying. I think there's a Greater Arcane Eye spell somewhere that lets you cast a single spell through it, but even then you'd need to get them to physically swallow the eye first.

Ravens_cry
2011-04-08, 03:43 PM
A zero level spell that can kill if you can restrain them is create water. Stick your finger down their throat and presto, instant, massive, water inhalation.

Qwertystop
2011-04-08, 03:52 PM
You need line of sight/effect, not just visuals - Prestidigitation is not on the list of things you can cast through Greater Scrying. I think there's a Greater Arcane Eye spell somewhere that lets you cast a single spell through it, but even then you'd need to get them to physically swallow the eye first.

Well then, restrain them and force-feed it to them.
Of course, then you're expending a much higher-level spell to kill someone with Prestidigitation, when you could probably use the higher spell slot and get it over with faster. This goes even more so if you're using magic to restrain them.