PDA

View Full Version : Interview with a vampire-designer



MeeposFire
2011-04-06, 04:00 PM
Some insight into the new vampire class. It has some interesting tactical opportunities new to the game though not too many choices in the building.

http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drdd/20110406#73838

Surrealistik
2011-04-06, 04:28 PM
I still think it has no business being a class, but it seems like it'll be fun.

Kurald Galain
2011-04-06, 04:43 PM
There's nothing in that article that we didn't know already. Also, while vampires are a class now, they are also a race, and also a set of feats; WOTC should make up their mind already.

DeltaEmil
2011-04-06, 04:50 PM
You can be a double-vampire.

I think it's okay for the vampire to be a class. It's really iconic, and when one thinks of Dracula, it's about him being THE vampire-archetype, and not as a warrior-prince of Wallachia.

Also, I see no problem with vryloka vampires.

Kurald Galain
2011-04-06, 04:56 PM
You can be a double-vampire.
Triple, even, and with revenant thrown in for good measure, and both the lycanthropy curse and the druid class to be able to turn into a wolf in four different ways :smallbiggrin:

Surrealistik
2011-04-06, 04:58 PM
You can be a double-vampire.

I think it's okay for the vampire to be a class. It's really iconic, and when one thinks of Dracula, it's about him being THE vampire-archetype, and not as a warrior-prince of Wallachia.

Also, I see no problem with vryloka vampires.

You can be a _triple_ vampire. Vampiric Heritage as a Vryloka Vampire.

Yo dawg we herd you like being a vampire, so we made you a vampire while you're a vampire while you're a vampire, so you can steal surges while you're stealing surges while you're stealing surges.

http://assets.yodawgpics.com/hashed_silo_content/silo_content/34142/resized/Xzibit-Yo-Dawg.jpg?1284329798

MeeposFire
2011-04-06, 05:02 PM
It will be interesting to see on of these in action since it will play very differently from other classes in the game. You can't say that they were being stale in the style department.

Surrealistik
2011-04-06, 05:05 PM
I can't wait to play my Xzibit Vryloka Vampire Heritage Vampire.

DeltaEmil
2011-04-06, 05:08 PM
So we can finally play Dracula... The Castlevania-version, who transforms into an undead shapeshifting god of chaos, with deadly necrotic laserbeams from his eyeholes.

incandescent
2011-04-06, 08:20 PM
I'm interested to see how the low healing surge mechanic plays in combination with gaining surges and using them to add oomph to power. seems like the durable feat would be a good choice, since it doubles your surges :P

MrSinister
2011-04-06, 11:22 PM
I think we can get more vampire out of this.... Vampire race + vampire class + vampire heritage feats + IF they have a racial paragon path for the vampire race...

QUAD-PIRE!

Also, for more undeadiness, Revenant with the vampire race as past life.

Undead Quad-pire!

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-06, 11:28 PM
In the D&D game, so much of a character’s identity is expressed by the powers that character can use.

This is probably the saddest thing I've ever read, and frankly tells me a lot about WotC's design philosophy.

Xefas
2011-04-06, 11:35 PM
This is probably the saddest thing I've ever read, and frankly tells me a lot about WotC's design philosophy.

I wouldn't call it sad, personally. I actually commend Wizards of the Coast for having straightforward design goals with 4th edition and genuinely fulfilling them at every turn. I don't think they can boast that claim about 3.5 edition. In some ways, I liked 3.5's design goals better, but I don't think the designers really fulfilled them.

Seerow
2011-04-06, 11:36 PM
This is probably the saddest thing I've ever read, and frankly tells me a lot about WotC's design philosophy.

Well I don't disagree with that statement. In the current system, your defining features -are- your powers. It's what makes any given pair of characters different from each other. Class features are few, far between, and generally pretty generic. It's your powers that really define you.

That said, I don't agree with taking that line of reasoning, and using it as an excuse for making the Vampire a class. Especially if it's going to be the only class, or one of only two classes, in the book. (The necromancer is sketchy at best from what I've heard). The vampire would work just fine as a spellscar style feat, so you get a couple of vampire-feely powers to complement your actual class powers. So you keep that defining feel without having to make the vampirism the sole summation of what your character is/does.

Mando Knight
2011-04-06, 11:56 PM
The vampire would work just fine as a spellscar style feat, so you get a couple of vampire-feely powers to complement your actual class powers. So you keep that defining feel without having to make the vampirism the sole summation of what your character is/does.

It depends on the kind of Vampire you want to be. Vryloka could do that, or the Dhampyr feats from a good while back. The class Vampire is for when you want to tell the DM that, without a doubt, you vant to sahk zhier blahd, explode into a cloud of bats or smoke when you need a quick getaway, and hypnotize countless women with your sparkly good looks.

Seerow
2011-04-07, 12:09 AM
It depends on the kind of Vampire you want to be. Vryloka could do that, or the Dhampyr feats from a good while back. The class Vampire is for when you want to tell the DM that, without a doubt, you vant to sahk zhier blahd, explode into a cloud of bats or smoke when you need a quick getaway, and hypnotize countless women with your sparkly good looks.

Hypnotizing women with your sparkly good looks is not a vampire class feature. If you want that be a vampire bard or something.

Sucking their blood, or turning into a bat to get away? Those are easily powers that could be put in without being a full blown class. I don't recall the damphir feats, but if they weren't something that gives you 2-3 powers from a fairly decent selection of powers, like the spellscar did, then it's not really what I was referring to. And if it did do that, what exactly is the complaint with it?

stainboy
2011-04-07, 12:47 AM
For the sake of all you DMs, I hope that's the first draft of Blood Drinker. I has a bag, there are rats in it.

Mando Knight
2011-04-07, 01:18 AM
For the sake of all you DMs, I hope that's the first draft of Blood Drinker. I has a bag, there are rats in it.

You realize that it's still limited to X-per-encounter, bag-of-rats aren't a legitimate enemy unless the DM says it's OK, and it only targets one enemy at a time anyway? Also that the Vampire has only 2 surges per day otherwise? You're going to have to show why it's broken.

stainboy
2011-04-07, 02:05 AM
Wow, that's a really defensive response.

To clarify, I'm suggesting that vampires will carry little animals/vermin as powerups, to be consumed over 10-30 minutes to fill up whenever they have time to spare. Not that they can somehow kill an entire bag of rats with one Blood Drinker and gain like 200 surges.

Carrying rats as snacks might not even be overpowered. It's just stupid, and easy to fix.

Xefas
2011-04-07, 02:10 AM
Which, really, I wouldn't even say that a vampire carrying around a sack of blood batteries would lack verisimilitude. It might be for Dracula, as he's all pompous and such. But I could see David Boreanaz doing it if he somehow found himself as an adventuring hobo, riding around murdering things for loot.

The New Bruceski
2011-04-07, 02:10 AM
Can a Bard multiclass Vampire? "I'm not undead, I only dabble in it."

Reluctance
2011-04-07, 02:46 AM
We haven't seen any vampiric MC feats yet. (At least for this class. The bloodline from a while back does count as a MC, IIRC, so anybody could dabble in it if they see fit.) Given all the ways one can be a vampire, I'm not seeing a touch of that on another character being all that bad.

Blood Drinker, as written, has a noticeable hole; it doesn't allow you to suck surges out of willing allies. I'd be unsurprised if the ability to nosh on your friends (or unwitting succulent necks) were a different class feature.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-07, 02:50 AM
I'm still having a hard time fitting my head around the concept, and would be tempted to impute it to a twilight-related wave of vampire popularity, except for the fact that vampires have always been popular with a given subset of people, over the last few generations, not to mention they take a jab at that particular development lower down.

I'm wondering how the fluff will work out.

Kurald Galain
2011-04-07, 04:27 AM
Especially if it's going to be the only class, or one of only two classes, in the book. (The necromancer is sketchy at best from what I've heard).
The necromancer is a mage build, not a new class.


you vant to sahk zhier blahd, explode into a cloud of bats or smoke when you need a quick getaway, and hypnotize countless women with your sparkly good looks.
I'm pretty sure warlocks can already do that, too.


For the sake of all you DMs, I hope that's the first draft of Blood Drinker. I has a bag, there are rats in it.
No, it's the final version (since the book is just days away from release). That said, 4E does have a rule against Bag Of Rats tactics (which is good, because this would hardly be the first time it's needed).


Can a Bard multiclass Vampire? "I'm not undead, I only dabble in it."
That would be hilarious. But 4.4 doesn't have multiclass feats.

WitchSlayer
2011-04-07, 05:10 AM
We haven't seen any vampiric MC feats yet. (At least for this class. The bloodline from a while back does count as a MC, IIRC, so anybody could dabble in it if they see fit.) Given all the ways one can be a vampire, I'm not seeing a touch of that on another character being all that bad.

Blood Drinker, as written, has a noticeable hole; it doesn't allow you to suck surges out of willing allies. I'd be unsurprised if the ability to nosh on your friends (or unwitting succulent necks) were a different class feature.

He did mention the ability to regain healing surges by taking one from your allies during a short rest. So yeah, that's still in.

Christopher K.
2011-04-07, 06:22 AM
I've gotta say, Warforged and Shardmind vampires are looking more and more interesting as the book approaches. :smallbiggrin:

Jack_Banzai
2011-04-07, 06:34 AM
Well I don't disagree with that statement. In the current system, your defining features -are- your powers. It's what makes any given pair of characters different from each other. Class features are few, far between, and generally pretty generic. It's your powers that really define you.

Not in Essentials. Not really. A lot more features there and fewer powers overall, at least for martial classes.


Especially if it's going to be the only class, or one of only two classes, in the book.

According to the 3/11/2011 article Shadow Classes, it looks like there are four classes, not two:
-a new Assassin, the executioner
-a new Paladin, called the blackguard, which is a striker
-the Vampire
-a new "binder warlock" which is a controller.

Then class options of the Cleric death domain, the Hexblade gloom pact, and the nethermancy and necromancy Wizard schools.

serok42
2011-04-07, 06:40 AM
For the sake of all you DMs, I hope that's the first draft of Blood Drinker. I has a bag, there are rats in it.

It does say "hit an enemy" I would (and will) rule that you cannot just carry around a bag of rats for this purpose. Rats are not an enemy unless the DM controls them.

Carrying around a bag of Kobolds is a different story. :smallbiggrin:

Dust
2011-04-07, 10:41 AM
I, for one, will be making a hybrid Vampire/Fighter just to annoy all the other PCS.
http://www.fightingmaster.com/actors/snipes/photos/snipes.jpg

MeeposFire
2011-04-07, 12:55 PM
Really a class in not that odd. 3.5's savage species progressions were just a fancy way of not calling something a class when it could just as easily had been called one. Savage species basically had you taking levels in vampire.

Jack_Banzai
2011-04-07, 05:01 PM
I, for one, will be making a hybrid Vampire/Fighter just to annoy all the other PCS.
http://www.fightingmaster.com/actors/snipes/photos/snipes.jpg

I wonder if there will be Hybrid rules for Vampires in HoS? I'm going to guess, no.

DeltaEmil
2011-04-07, 07:31 PM
According to the guy who has a copy of Heroes of Shadows, there aren't any multiclass feats for the vampire class itself. And I think there aren't for the other subclasses either.

OracleofWuffing
2011-04-07, 08:15 PM
I think we can get more vampire out of this.... Vampire race + vampire class + vampire heritage feats + IF they have a racial paragon path for the vampire race...

QUAD-PIRE!

So, uh, hypothetically speaking, what happens when the quad-pire accidentally bites its own tongue and swallows some blood?

MrSinister
2011-04-07, 10:20 PM
So, uh, hypothetically speaking, what happens when the quad-pire accidentally bites its own tongue and swallows some blood?

Could this be the first instance of 4.X getting into the good old 3.X zaniness we all know and love?

What if the vampire takes MC feats to get summoning powers? Can those guys be food? I mean, I'm sure a dretch doesn't taste like Dom Perignon but in a pinch.... ?

DeltaEmil
2011-04-07, 10:46 PM
Yes. The hit points the summoned creatures lose is substracted from your own hit points. So yeah, it's a vampire that bites its own tongue.

Kurald Galain
2011-04-08, 04:34 AM
Yes. The hit points the summoned creatures lose is substracted from your own hit points.
You mean the healing surges they lose.

On the other hand, a ranger's animal companion does have actual healing surges (although a druid's animal companion does not). That means that a race-vampire or feat-vampire can indeed drink from his animal (who is, after all, a willing ally if he says so); however, a class-vampire can't, since it can't get an animal through multiclassing or hybriding.

Also, I believe there are some item-based summons (e.g. figurines) that do have a healing surge.

DeltaEmil
2011-04-08, 05:45 AM
If you drain a creature that has no healing surges (left), you normally deal hit point damage in the form of the surge value. Most summoned creatures don't have a healing surge (or more precisely, the summoner sacrifices one to call whatever thing). So no free healing shenanigan from your own summons. And even if there is, expect an errata to come out one month later that says it can't do so.

Kurald Galain
2011-04-08, 05:51 AM
If you drain a creature that has no healing surges (left), you normally deal hit point damage in the form of the surge value. Most summoned creatures don't have a healing surge (or more precisely, the summoner sacrifices one to call whatever thing).
Most summons don't cost a surge to cast, though. They cost a surge when they die, so you have to ensure that they don't. Since all summons are dailies, it would be silly to summon a creature purely to drain it; but if a summon is still healthy after combat, you could drain it.

Even if it's a fire elemental :)

DeltaEmil
2011-04-08, 05:53 AM
They cost a surge, which you normally get back if they aren't killed by the end of the encounter.

Kurald Galain
2011-04-08, 05:59 AM
They cost a surge, which you normally get back if they aren't killed by the end of the encounter.
I'm afraid not, I just looked it up in Arcane Power and they don't cost a surge.

...perhaps you're talking about druidic summons?

MeeposFire
2011-04-12, 04:07 PM
Well the early birds are playing the vampire and the few reviews of the actual performance are slowly trickling in. Thus far I have seen two stories one at level one and another at level 8 (the level 8 is from a poster that is a regular char OP person and knows what he is talking about in general and plays in games with some challenges).

In both the vampire has played as a sort of solo character in that he is often able to do many things. You could also look at him as a jack of all trades since at these levels he hits fairly hard (not really hard but fairly hard), has some good control powers, and is tough enough to put itslef in a position to tank (though they lack a natural way to force attacks towards him).

In both games the vampire turned out to be really tough. In the level 8 game the vampire ended up going through effectively 6 surges and used regeneration and after the battle the vampire once again had the full surges he had at the start of combat. The poster was even questioning whether vampires need durable to survive though it was mentioned that it would still be a very good feat so that vampires could use more surges to boost their attacks.

It remains to be seen how they will play in paragon and epic. That is where the problems are likely to start and hopefully we will see some honest play throughs at that level as well. It is very interesting so far.