[3.5] Gish knight

[Bloodymango]

so im makeing a gish knight. as it works out ill have 17lvs as a sorcerer caster level. i was woundering besides sacking a lv in knight is there a way to get to lv 9 spells

[gbprime]

Details please. What classes and levels are you using?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use the Sorcadin build but replace Paladin with Knight:

Knight 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8, 18th level spellcasting and +16 BAB.

[gbprime]

Or Battle Sorcerer 6 / Abjurant Champion 4 / Knight Phantom 10. +18 BAB and 19 levels of casting.

Battle Sorcerer is survivable if you use a bloodline feat from Dragon Magazine Compendium to make up for your missing spells.

[Cog]

You can be a Kobold and perform the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)

[Sacrieur]

I'm opposed to Battle Sorcerer. It would be worth it if you got -20% ASF knocked off instead of the ability to cast in light armor without ASF.

[Thurbane]

You could go in a different direction, and go Knight/Binder/KotSS. You'll get 8th level Vestiges, no problem, and ASF is a non-issue.

[Amphetryon]

Person_Man's Vow of Poverty Knight/Apostle of Peace is another option. 9th level spells, and weapons break when they hit you.

[Grendus]

The only way to end up with 18th level spells is to only have 2 levels of non-spellcasting class. Well, short of using kobold cheese, but good luck getting that to fly with your DM. It's a tough sell.

[Cog]

The kobold stuff really isn't cheesy; it puts your spell levels on par with a Wizard's, Cleric's, or Druid's, while giving you a +1 bonus to caster level. The latter is easy to get in limited form from a lot of places with much easier requirements, or simply available in item form.

The dragonspawn templates, on the other hand...

[Thurbane]

A 16th+ level Sorc should be able to wrangle at least one 9th level spell, using Versatile Spellcaster and a Bloodline feat (Dragon Compendium) or similar...

[Grendus]

Depends on your definition of cheesy I guess. I think getting a free level of spells is cheesy, even if it 'just puts you on par with the wizard'. But YMMV.

[Bloodymango]

sorry about that 3knight/4sorce/spellsword/2sorce/10 eldrich knight

[TroubleBrewing]

Could you be a little clearer? I imagine most of us understood what you meant, but the less we have to translate from "incomprehensible gibberish", the better.

Punctuation, man... But on to brass tacks.

Eldritch Knight is sub-par. Abjurant Champion is a stronger choice. I would personally substitute Paladin where you've got Knight (Also, cut back to 2 levels of Knight- you won't grab 9th level spells otherwise), but it's mostly personal preference. Sorcerer is fine, Spellsword dip is great, looks fine.

As far as your original question goes... Not really. Unless you replace Sorcerer casting with Wizard or Cleric, no. Not in an ECL 20 build that looks like the one you've got, anyway.

[Bloodymango]

sry about that was kinda in a rush. im now looking at 3kinght/6sorc/1spellblade/10 knights phantom. We use the LGCS so Abj champion is out.

[Keld Denar]

Knight Phantom isn't an allowable PrC by the LGCS either.

Also, didn't you just have a thread out for this? Did you not like the advice there? You probably aren't gonna get much more help on this.

You seem pretty set on the level progression, so we probably can't change your mind on that. What feats did you have planned? What spells known were you planning on taking? If you don't know, ask for suggestions. If you have an idea, let us know what you are planning and we'll critique it.

The more you put into this, the more you get out. So far, you haven't put much into it, so there isn't a whole lot of advice to give because there is SOOOO much advice to give. Can you help narrow it down?

[Bloodymango]

what book is the variant sorcerer out of. there are certain exceptions being allowed by my dm.

[Keld Denar]

Battle Sorcerer? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm)

There is also Stalwart Sorcerer in CMage.

Both are bad options if you are planning on multiclassing out, though. The benefits you get (HD, BAB, etc) are all subsumed by the PrC, while the restrictions you face (loss of spells known/spells per day) remain indefinitely.

[Bloodymango]

ill will have a bab of 18/13/8/3 and 2 lv 8 spells with the current build i have. i will prob just use my spell casting abilities to buff my ac and survivability. is the battle sorcerer out of PHB2.

[gbprime]

Look in the post Keld made, 2 up from this one. He includes a link to Battle Sorcerer. it's Unearthed Arcana, so it's SRD.

And Keld... caster 19, BAB 18. That's why you use Battle Sorcerer. It's Gish material only, especially if you're sacking spells for Arcane Strike all the time anyway.

[dextercorvia]

Doesn't Knight Phantom lose a casting level as well?

[gbprime]

Doesn't Knight Phantom lose a casting level as well?

Yup. It's like Eldritch Knight with more candy. You lose a caster level either way. All the more reason to minimize non-caster levels when building your gish.

[Bloodymango]

lets talk feats now. lets try to amplify dmg and survivability.

3 knight/ 6 battle sorcerer/ 1 spellsword / knights phantom
1 monkey grip
3 weapon focus great sword
6
bonus feat: still spell
9 arcane strike
12
15
18

[Amphetryon]

Monkey Grip is a TRAP. You're spending a feat to make your character do statistically less damage.

Knowledge Devotion is a much more reliable way to amplify damage, not to mention out of combat utility.

[Aspenor]

Seconded. Spending a feat on Monkey Grip is literally purposefully gimping a character to be worse than they were before.

[Thurbane]

Monkey Grip is easily duplicated (bettered) by Strongarm bracers, when you can afford them...

[gbprime]

lets talk feats now. lets try to amplify dmg and survivability.

3 knight/ 6 battle sorcerer/ 1 spellsword / knights phantom

Hold on a sec. If you're using 3 knight levels, you don't want Battle Sorcerer. The point to battle sorcerer is to get the BAB and weapons without taking a non-casting class, at the price of spells known and spells per day. After knight, take regular sorcerer instead.


1 monkey grip
3 weapon focus great sword
6
bonus feat: still spell
9 arcane strike
12
15
18

I agree, Monkey Grip is a lousy use of a feat for an extra what... 1d6 damage? And what do you need the Weapon Focus for?

1 - Combat Reflexes
3 - Power Attack
6 - Cleave
9 - Arcane Strike
12 - Minor Shapeshift (free temp HP)
15 - Robilar's Gambit (feuled off the Arcane Strike you fired up last round...)
18 - Defensive Sweep

[Thurbane]

A 16th+ level Sorc should be able to wrangle at least one 9th level spell, using Versatile Spellcaster and a Bloodline feat (Dragon Compendium) or similar...
Further to this, PrCs like Sand Shaper that add 9th level spells known would also be castable using Versatile Spellcaster, unless I'm misreading the relevant rules...

[Bloodymango]

helbread.
16
10
14
6
8
16

1 Knight devils touch(bonus feat),monkey grip;
2 Knight ;
3 Knight power attack;
4 sorcerer Devil’s Flesh(bonus feat) ;
5 sorcerer ;
6 sorcerer arcane strike;
7 sorcerer
8 spellsword
9 sorcerer stillspell;
10 Knight phantom
11 Knight phantom ;
12 Knight phantom battle casting;
13 Knight phantom
14 Knight phantom Devil’s Stamina(bonus feat) ;
15 Knight phantom combat casting;
16 Knight phantom
17 Knight phantom
18 Knight phantom defensive sweep;
19 Knight phantom
20 Unknown

17/12/7/2

now how about some spells a gish would cast to help boost his ac saves and attacks

[Sacrieur]

helbread.
16
10
14
6
8
16

1 Knight devils touch(bonus feat),monkey grip;
2 Knight ;
3 Knight power attack;
4 sorcerer Devil’s Flesh(bonus feat) ;
5 sorcerer ;
6 sorcerer arcane strike;
7 sorcerer
8 spellsword
9 sorcerer stillspell;
10 Knight phantom
11 Knight phantom ;
12 Knight phantom battle casting;
13 Knight phantom
14 Knight phantom Devil’s Stamina(bonus feat) ;
15 Knight phantom combat casting;
16 Knight phantom
17 Knight phantom
18 Knight phantom defensive sweep;
19 Knight phantom
20 Unknown

17/12/7/2

now how about some spells a gish would cast to help boost his ac saves and attacks

That's a terrible PO, I know groups that don't even allow you to dip below 8 int because of how bloody stupid that actually is. Unless you metagame like mad, your party has to babysit you. Not to mention it is really hard to play a spellcaster properly with that low of int. "I cast emm... What were we doing again?"

To reiterate, 6 Int is the same as an IQ of 60. This isn't, "Thog like smash stuff," stupid. This is, "DUN NO TY SHUS." Seriously, the rest of the party is going to have to help you get dressed.

[Greenish]

Depends on your definition of cheesy I guess. I think getting a free level of spells is cheesy, even if it 'just puts you on par with the wizard'. But YMMV.It's not free, given that it permanently reduces your hp, burns a feat and even a tiny bit of gp.

[gbprime]

helbread.

I laugh every time I see this typo. Hell Bread. It's like pumpernickel with hot peppers, isn't it?

[Bloodymango]

i know its no where near optimal but what do u guys think of the dragon devotee PrC in race of dragons

[Cog]

It's better than Dragon Disciple, though that doesn't mean much.

It's not very high-tier (which may be good or bad depending on your point of view), but it makes an alright entry into Abjurant Champion (from a melee focus), and gives small boosts to the three main stats for a Sorc-gish, helping control MAD a little.

[Coidzor]

I laugh every time I see this typo. Hell Bread. It's like pumpernickel with hot peppers, isn't it?

Pimento Pumpernickel? :smallconfused: Interesting.

Habanero Harvest Wheat? ...Habanero Hoecakes (http://www.thenibble.com/reviews/main/breadstuffs/bread-glossary5.asp#j)? Habanero Hotcrossbuns?

Jalapeno Johnnycake?

[Bang!]

@OP

Can you even qualify for those PrCs with that Int? And you definitely don't qualify for Arcane Strike until level 7.

Is Knight Phantom legit in Greyhawk? I thought it was Eberron-specific. (But then, I've never used an official setting, so I don't really know how folks do it.)

Levels 4-10 are going to be rough. Don't expect that build to come together until ECL 12.

You might want to try Knight 3/Duskblade 3/Suel Arcanamach 4/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 10.

It would lose some higher level spells and would require you to eke out a bit more Intelligence, but I think it would do the Knight-Sorcerer-Tank thing a bit more easily/elegantly than your last build. The Tumble prerequisite might require some finagling (adjusting the classes as recommended in the PHB's Description section would be easiest, the Cityscape web enhancement's Skilled City-Dweller (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) modifications would also work)

[Bloodymango]

so im going to be starting a campaign soon, i choose the role of tank. i was looking at knight for a base class, do to there heavy armor and shield proficiency, d12 hit die and making all terrain difficult around them at third level. i was also looking at pious templar for mettle. but besides this what else do u guys recommend. looking for feats, PrC and any other advice. plz no ToB i do not want a dip in swordsage.

[Bloodymango]

mispost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[herrhauptmann]

mispost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When you edit, there's an option to just delete the post. Very important for the inevitable doublepost....


It's not free, given that it permanently reduces your hp, burns a feat and even a tiny bit of gp.
How much is the loss of HP and gold?

sry about that was kinda in a rush. im now looking at 3kinght/6sorc/1spellblade/10 knights phantom. We use the LGCS so Abj champion is out.
LGCS=living greyhawk campaign setting, right?
Pretty sure that setting allows use of the complete series after a certain level. At least it did when I played it (5-6 years ago)

so im going to be starting a campaign soon, i choose the role of tank. i was looking at knight for a base class, do to there heavy armor and shield proficiency, d12 hit die and making all terrain difficult around them at third level. i was also looking at pious templar for mettle. but besides this what else do u guys recommend. looking for feats, PrC and any other advice. plz no ToB i do not want a dip in swordsage.
Well, this looks like it should be in your opening post. I'd recommend updating it. (If you've done it while I'm typing, please disregard)
Pious templar is great, but not for you. It has its own casting (paladin casting), which will not advance your sorc casting. Unless your group has some houserules. In which case, it's not Living Greyhawk. PT might work, if it's the only source of NON sorc casting you've got, but that won't happen with knight in there. Not when you still desire to keep 9th level spells. Buy your mettle, a tabard in Complete Champ, costs 14k.

Spellsword might not be the best prestige class, but you should take at least 1 level. If you want to wear heavy armor (a reason you chose knight), you want some reducers for arcane spell failure. There are some more you can buy. Among them, twilight armor.

[Essence_of_War]

You might want to try Knight 3/Duskblade 3/Suel Arcanamach 4/Swiftblade 10.


I personally like:

Knight 3/Duskblade 3/Suel 4/Abj Champ 5/Spellsword 1

For your first 16 levels, I'm not familiar with the swiftblade, but the Suel's CL is = his class level, which is really rough if you don't Abj Champ that up.

OP, I think that either of these Suel builds is looking much better than the build you're currently working with.