Weird Gish Build Idea

[Tokuhara]

I had a twisted idea. Optimized? Probably not. Cool, most definately. Here's my concept:

Race: Warforged
Class: Warmage 4/OA Samurai 1 (for free Weapons :smalltongue:)/Swiftblade 3/Spellcarved Soldier 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 2

Supergish is the goal, using my "body armor" and saving myself a lot of coin

Any feat suggestions?

[true_shinken]

I don't see how you qualify for Swiftblade at Hexblade 4.

[Tokuhara]

I don't see how you qualify for Swiftblade at Hexblade 4.

Ive seen it done before in another build. All I need is Haste and proficiencies in one martial weapon, with all of the other garbage I need. Planning on swapping Knight Phantom for Greenstar Adept

[true_shinken]

Ive seen it done before in another build. All I need is Haste and proficiencies in one martial weapon, with all of the other garbage I need. Planning on swapping Knight Phantom for Greenstar Adept

How do you get Haste at Hexblade 4?

[CapnVan]

Swiftblade requires BAB +3 and haste.

Warmage doesn't get BAB +3 until level 6.

[true_shinken]

Swiftblade requires BAB +3 and haste.

Warmage doesn't get BAB +3 until level 6.

And doesn't get haste at all.

[Amphetryon]

How do you get Haste at Hexblade 4?

AFAIK, it requires Extra Spell and two "ifs":

1)IF Extra Spell is not list-specific (heavily debated, draw your own conclusions)
and
2)IF the Trapsmith's list - which includes Haste as a 1st level spell - is a viable source...

THEN you can have Haste on a 4th level Hexblade's list.

[true_shinken]

AFAIK, it requires Extra Spell and two "ifs":

1)IF Extra Spell is not list-specific (heavily debated, draw your own conclusions)
and
2)IF the Trapsmith's list - which includes Haste as a 1st level spell - is a viable source...

THEN you can have Haste on a 4th level Hexblade's list.

As you said, that's largely iffy... and that still wouldn't qualify for Swiftblade, since you need to use all of your 3rd level slots to cast haste.
The creator already said he didn't know about Trapsmith at the time and it was an oversight, but then again if you use this sources you should use the FAQ adressing Extra Spell (i.e., it's list-specific).

[Tokuhara]

Actually, Warmage CAN learn Haste, via Ecclectic Learning.

[true_shinken]

Actually, Warmage CAN learn Haste, via Ecclectic Learning.
Yes, they can. At level 11, that is.
Even if they somehow could get it at level 4, they still wouldn't have enough bab anyway.

[Veyr]

The author of Swiftblade not realizing that Haste was available in other spell slot levels, and admitting that the pre-req is poorly worded for that reason and should be changed, is an example of a good ruling.

The Sage claiming that Extra Spell should be list-only, on the other hand, is an example of a bad ruling.

Both are rulings; neither is RAW. But I definitely see an argument for using one, and not the other, since I agree with one and not the other.

I wouldn't allow the Trapsmith's list for Extra Spell, though. Again, pure houserule. Off-list stuff, fine, but Trapsmith is a special case because of its PrC nature.

Also, with respect to the build, Green Star Adept is an awful, awful class, and it's going to cost you coin, not save it. Plus, you're a Warforged! What's the point of having those levels anyway?

[true_shinken]

The Sage claiming that Extra Spell should be list-only, on the other hand, is an example of a bad ruling.

Yeah, spellcasters are not versatile enough already. :smalleek:

[Amphetryon]

Also, with respect to the build, Green Star Adept is an awful, awful class, and it's going to cost you coin, not save it. Plus, you're a Warforged! What's the point of having those levels anyway?
I did once putter around with a funny idea of a Warforged who took the Unarmored Body feat and then had an "Oh, god, what have I done!" moment and spent PrC levels trying to get the plating back.

It's a corner case, though, and fairly different than the stated design goal of the OP.

[true_shinken]

I did once putter around with a funny idea of a Warforged who took the Unarmored Body feat and then had an "Oh, god, what have I done!" moment and spent PrC levels trying to get the plating back.


Man, that's a cool concept. Did you use it at the GSA Iron Chef?

[Veyr]

Yeah, spellcasters are not versatile enough already. :smalleek:
That has little bearing on the feat. If spellcasters are a problem, fix the spellcasters, or the spells. Nerfing the feat into worthlessness (which is what the Sage's ruling does) is not an appropriate or good answer to the problem.

[Kylarra]

Note that reading Extra Spell as not being list-specific has the weird side effect of giving archivists theoretical access to every single spell of levels 1-8 with even less shenanigans (or more depending on how you look at it) than before.

[Amphetryon]

Man, that's a cool concept. Did you use it at the GSA Iron Chef?

No, I was making the Renegade Mastermaker instead of a GSA. I thought it was amusing, anyhow.

[true_shinken]

No, I was making the Renegade Mastermaker instead of a GSA. I thought it was amusing, anyhow.
You could have won with that concept, I believe.

Btw, Tokuhara - OA Samurai does not get you 'free weapons' of any sort.

[Tokuhara]

Btw, Tokuhara - OA Samurai does not get you 'free weapons' of any sort.

Ancestral Daisho Class feature gives you a masterwork katana and wakizashi, but I convinced my DM to let me grab a Nodachi (greatsword) instead of both weaps

[Tokuhara]

So does anyone have a better build then?

[gbprime]

Well if you were considering Hexblade or Warmage, then you're going to LOVE...

Battle Sorcerer 6 - Abjurant Champion 4 - Knight Phantom 10.

Battle Sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana. Even without taking a bloodline feat from Dragon Mag Compendium (which I highly recommend), its still more versatile than either of the other classes you were considering.

[Tokuhara]

Well if you were considering Hexblade or Warmage, then you're going to LOVE...

Battle Sorcerer 6 - Abjurant Champion 4 - Knight Phantom 10.

Battle Sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana. Even without taking a bloodline feat from Dragon Mag Compendium (which I highly recommend), its still more versatile than either of the other classes you were considering.

I wanted to include Spellcarved Soldier

[gbprime]

I wanted to include Spellcarved Soldier

Ah. I wouldn't make a gish out of that. That's a 1 level caster dip to qualify. Then you have the party buffer cast stuff on you, or you use a wand or staff to do it yourself. Levelling a caster with a PrC that gains no spell progression is not a good idea, IMO.

[Tokuhara]

Then why be a warforged mage? Im more wondering how I can use Spellcarved Soldier optimally, because it has at least some good abilities, especially for a gish, minus lost CL

[Tyndmyr]

Note that reading Extra Spell as not being list-specific has the weird side effect of giving archivists theoretical access to every single spell of levels 1-8 with even less shenanigans (or more depending on how you look at it) than before.

I'm ok with this. Mostly because it's pretty much just a pure theory thing regardless.

Learning every spell in existence just isn't going to be something that comes up in any practical game.

[gbprime]

Then why be a warforged mage? Im more wondering how I can use Spellcarved Soldier optimally, because it has at least some good abilities, especially for a gish, minus lost CL

But if you're losing that much CL, you're not really a Gish. Spellcarved Soldier is for PC's who have powerful caster/artificer friends who buff them regularly. If you want to buff YOURSELF instead, skip this class and load up on caster levels instead, as you'll be more powerful in the end.

Spellcarved Soldier is weird that way. You're taking a PrC to make something that someone ELSE does more effective on YOU.

[Cog]

Spellcarved Soldier can also be useful for classes with a limited spellcasting progression. After taking ten levels of Assassin, Suel Arcanamach, or the like, additional spellcaster levels don't do you much good.

[true_shinken]

Like Cog said, Spellcarved Soldier is specially good for Suel Arcanamachs. XXX 6 (even Hexblade works)/Arcanamach 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellcarved Soldier 5 is actually pretty solid, standing with BAB 19 and a base caster level of 24 (considering you choose the caster level boosting rune, of course).
Check my Suel Arcanamach handbook for more info.