Help me build a warrior king [3.5]

[true_shinken]

OK, in my game the king of a main kingdom was killed early on by the BBEG. Now, the players found out a way to bring him back (long story short, there are no spells above 6th level in this world, but they managed to find a Healer and a lock of the king's hair). At first, I had him as a NG Fighter 8/Barbarian 8, but I never stated him up properly.
Now, I want this guy stated because they will get into fights alongside him. He needs to be level 15, and I have a few traits stablished for him:

He was born in a land where religion is built around animal totems. Spirit totem ACF is a given.
He is a melee combat beast.
He has "the rage of a barbarian and the fury of a knight"
He is very charismatic and a strong warrior, but he is not exactly suited to be a general. He is more of a skirmisher.
No spellcasting at all. This guy is a Badass Normal.
Uses a greatsword.
Neutral Good alignment

The party will revive him with no equipment, of course.
Any help is apreciated.

[Morbis Meh]

Why not swap out the fighter levels for crusader? If he is like a knight it works and crusader's are definitely combat oriented.

[Zonugal]

What about something like Human Barbarian 2 (utilizing lion & wolf totems)/Knight 13? Maybe dash in a level or two of Marshal?

But whatever you do you should aim for him to inspire awe like this guy:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/5n_gallery/89992.jpg

[true_shinken]

Why not swap out the fighter levels for crusader? If he is like a knight it works and crusader's are definitely combat oriented.

I could do that, it's an idea. Fighter/Barbarian was just the first build skeleton. I'm not sticking to it.
My only problem with Crusader is that it makes a good commander and he souldn't be one.



What about something like Human Barbarian 2 (utilizing lion & wolf totems)/Knight 13? Maybe dash in a level or two of Marshal?

Can you mix and match totems? :smallconfused: Well, even if you can do it by RAW, I don't want to.
Knight seems like a good idea, but Marshall makes for too good a leader for what I want.

[IthilanorStPete]

Sounds like you could do a Barbarian w/ Intimidating Rage/Imperious Command kind of build. Eldariel's Barbarian Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105525) has some more info.

[Zonugal]

Can you mix and match totems? :smallconfused: Well, even if you can do it by RAW, I don't want to.
Knight seems like a good idea, but Marshall makes for too good a leader for what I want.

You can mix both the lion & wolf totem as they do not clash in sacrifices. You end up gaining pounce and improved trip, both of which are very nice. If you go this way be sure to pick up Wolf Beserker for an additional boost to tripping (your tripping bonus can continue to get crazy with a single level of swordsage).

Five levels of Knight is very nice as it grants you most of the 'signature' abilities, including test of mettle & absolute speed reduction of medium armor (which makes your pouncing terrific). Regarding Crusader you can always just focus on devoted spirit (reflavor to be about the re-invigoration of combat) and stone dragon.

But with all that said, it sounds like you may want a swift hunter build for a guy like this.

[Gwendol]

There are some obvious alignement issues with mixing barbarian and knight, but other than that four levels of knight should be enough: you get test of mettle, and some battlefield control options, and with the fighting prowess of a barbarian he should be good to go.

High charisma, Dreadful Wrath (PGtF), pounce, power attack, cleave, mighty cleaving greatsword, etc. And he's good to go!

I'd skip any system to stat him; just put the scores in as you see fit.

[Particle_Man]

re: Crusader -- you can get around "leadership" stuff you don't like by not taking White Raven.

You could perhaps go Barbarian/Frenzied Berzerker (explains why he is not a general -- he kills his own troops!)

[Cog]

You can mix both the lion & wolf totem as they do not clash in sacrifices.
Just to be clear, you can mix the wolf totem and the spirit lion totem. Most of the UA totems trade away fast movement, which keeps you from grabbing the spirit totems, but horse and wolf are valid.

Seconded on Crusader. The whole point of ToB is that the classes are flexible and can represent multiple archetypes. Crusader may be the most limited of the trio, but there's still plenty of flexibility.

[Dusk Eclipse]

When I read Bad ass normal I immediatly think of Warblade, by focusing on Iron Heart, Tiger claw and Stone dragon, he can be quite nasty.

Something like Barb 2/Warblade 13

I think your IL will be just enough to grab Raging Mongoose, for Pouncing Charges of +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3 (from pure BAB and extra attacks granted by Whirling Frenzy and raging mongoose)

[true_shinken]

There are some obvious alignement issues with mixing barbarian and knight, but other than that four levels of knight should be enough: you get test of mettle, and some battlefield control options, and with the fighting prowess of a barbarian he should be good to go.
Oh, I thought Knights were nonchaotic only. Yeah, that's going to be a problem.



When I read Bad ass normal I immediatly think of Warblade, by focusing on Iron Heart, Tiger claw and Stone dragon, he can be quite nasty.

Barbarian Warblade, yeah, that could work.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Maybe getting Burning Blade through a feat (or item if you can get it) might be a good option, adding 7d6 to each attack (burning burning blade + punishing stance + rabid bear strike) + 2d6 (great swordamage) + 26 (PA for full), decent damage I think.

[Doc Roc]

Shinken, I am the ghost of optimization communities past! If you take more than two levels of knight, I will headbutt you. Honestly, there's no reason to take any levels of knight. A miserable failure of class design.

[true_shinken]

Shinken, I am the ghost of optimization communities past!
Hahahaha, awesome. I miss 339.

If you take more than two levels of knight, I will headbutt you. Honestly, there's no reason to take any levels of knight. A miserable failure of class design.
Third level has Defensive Bulwark, a decent ability, actually. Basically the only good ability a Knight ever gets.
But I like the lower tiers. I'm fan of Knight and Warlock, not a fan of Wizard and Druid. But Knights does not seem to do what I want here, anyway.

[Telonius]

Hmmm ... how bout ....

Ranger3/Barbarian1/Scout3/Horizon WalkerX

Sounds like it would fit the fluff of a wilderness master, without being too charismatic. Up to 8 levels of Horizon Walker, or sprinkle it with a few extra levels of Ranger or Scout for better Skirmish/favored enemies.

1 - Power Attack, X, Track
2 - Rapid Shot
3 - Endurance, Imp Bull Rush
6 - Shock Trooper
9 - Swift Hunter
12 - Leap Attack
15 - X

Suggested Terrains: Desert (immune to Fatigue is nice for Barbarian), Plains (Spot is always nice), Hills (so is Listen), Underground (lots of dungeon nasties are underground, and darkvision never hurts), and whatever you like for the fifth. For Planar: Shifting, Aligned, Fiery, Cold.

[Pechvarry]

I would like to second Barbarian/Warblade, but I'd have some concerns...
1st, I think the Intimidating Rage path sounds awesome for this path. So you may want more barbarian levels.
2nd, you said you wanted him charismatic. Considering they're kinda low-impact abilities anyway, you could change all the Warblade features to be cha-based instead of Int.

[Keld Denar]

Fury much? How about Lion Barb1/Paladin of Freedom4/Hellbreaker10/X1? Very Cha-errific, has 2 degrees of fury (Rage + Holy Fury), has a degree of knightlyness (Paladin), get Turn Undead to power Divine/Devotion feats while maintaining full BAB, and even has a potential source of in combat healing that doesn't totally destroy your full attack sequence.

Tack on some Extra Rage, PA, and maybe a side of Chaos Devotion or Divine Might, take the Spell-less Pally variant in CChampion (gets you a bonus Fighter or Divine feat) and you have a guy who has a small degree of SUness to him, but is mostly badass by virtue of conviction and charisma. Like, literally hits you in the face with his massive...charisma.

[faceroll]

Hellbreaker's a pretty neat class, but I think I'd rather take ToB levels than levels in anything where Hellbreaker is superior to the base class.

[Flickerdart]

Hmmm ... how bout ....

Ranger3/Barbarian1/Scout3/Horizon WalkerX

Sounds like it would fit the fluff of a wilderness master, without being too charismatic. Up to 8 levels of Horizon Walker, or sprinkle it with a few extra levels of Ranger or Scout for better Skirmish/favored enemies.

1 - Power Attack, X, Track
2 - Rapid Shot
3 - Endurance, Imp Bull Rush
6 - Shock Trooper
9 - Swift Hunter
12 - Leap Attack
15 - X

Suggested Terrains: Desert (immune to Fatigue is nice for Barbarian), Plains (Spot is always nice), Hills (so is Listen), Underground (lots of dungeon nasties are underground, and darkvision never hurts), and whatever you like for the fifth. For Planar: Shifting, Aligned, Fiery, Cold.
Scout 4 is a great level to take because you can use the bonus feat for Improved Skirmish (the non-epic version) or Swift Hunter, saving you a feat. It doesn't make sense to take an even number of levels for the progression anyway. Taking Ranger 3 means you want Steadfast Determination later. It's also not a good idea to spec archery if you're going to go with a pounce build. Ranger 3/Barbarian 1/Scout 4/Horizon Walker 6 gets you the at-will DimDoor, and a free level (which is probably best spent on another Horizon Walker level for Tremorsense, or a Warblade level for maneuvers). A Cloistered Cleric dip nets you Travel Devotion, which could be used for repositioning yourself before making your charge (since you will want 20ft charges). With TWF (greatsword plus armour spikes), Whirling Frenzy and iteratives that's five attacks, each of which gets +4d6 Skirmish damage (or Ambush feats if you are so inclined).

[Telonius]

Taking Ranger 3 means you want Steadfast Determination later.

Ranger3 was actually for the free Endurance (Prereq for Horizon Walker).

I put Archery instead of TWF for combat style since the OP specifically wanted a Greatsword fighter. I hadn't considered Whirling Frenzy, but is it even possible to make an attack with an off-hand weapon when you've already made an attack with a two-handed weapon? If it's not, TWF would always be useless, but there might be some situations where a bow might come in handy.

Good call on Scout4 and Travel Devotion, though. The OP didn't want any caster levels at all, so he'd have to get it as a regular feat instead of a domain power trade-in.

[faceroll]

I put Archery instead of TWF for combat style since the OP specifically wanted a Greatsword fighter. I hadn't considered Whirling Frenzy, but is it even possible to make an attack with an off-hand weapon when you've already made an attack with a two-handed weapon? If it's not, TWF would always be useless, but there might be some situations where a bow might come in handy.

Whirling Frenzy gives you an extra attack straight up. No offhand stuff. You can TWF with armor spikes or a boot spike and a greatsword.

[Eldariel]

I believe what you want is indeed Barbarian 2/Warblade -> Straight Warblade could do the same but Barbarian seems to work and grants you worthwhile abilities. Notably, it combines well with any charges you use; you could use Diamond Mind for all the mobility and skirmishing, alongside Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon (for, y'know, smashing stone with your bare fist and stuff like that - the stuff badass normals do). And of course, any knightly type can use some Iron Heart; master of the sword and all that.

Even White Raven isn't out of the question as long as you pick the personal maneuvers there; a few of the charges, and stuff like White Raven Hammer really works out.


Note about the Spirit Totems and the UA Totems; they don't clash. The default PHB Barbarian is Jaguar Totem but you can mix any Spirit Totem with it freely. This only leads me to believe the Spirit Totem is a separate aspect of the Barbarian and as such, you can pick any one Totem and any one Spirit Totem; Totem the animal you aspire towards becoming, Spirit Totem the guardian animal you possess.

Spirit Lion feels sort of obvious for a mundane; the ability to pounce on charge combined with maneuvers really gets around much of the issues non-caster melee types have with mobility (not to mention, if he's a Skirmisher I cannot imagine him standing still and full attacking). Combine it with the maneuver "Bounding Assault" from Diamond Mind for positioning and attacking. The Wolf-totem is of questionable utility since Improved Trip cannot be used with maneuvers. Still, it's far from useless, I suppose, so as you will. You could, of course, have him as Barbarian 1/Fighter 1 to reflect the expanded armor proficiencies a Fighter receives; that give him the skill to use Tower Shields and heavy armor should he so desire (though of course, as a Greatsword-user the Tower Shields are not immediately useful; still, I'd expect some kind of formation fighting experience from anyone with formal combat training and Tower Shields definitely make sense there).


Long story short, I suggest Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 13 with some Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, Iron Heart and an off-ability or two in Stone Dragon. And IRON HEART SUUUURGE!

[faceroll]

The Wolf-totem is of questionable utility since Improved Trip cannot be used with maneuvers.

I believe the feat Knockdown gets around that limitation, as it is a specific rule, and no trip with maneuvers is a general rule.

Would also recommend extra rage. Rage is cool stuff. You can never be too angry.

PS
I really like your barbarian handbook, Eldariel.

[Eldariel]

I believe the feat Knockdown gets around that limitation, as it is a specific rule, and no trip with maneuvers is a general rule.

This is true. Feats make everything better :smallbiggrin:

[Telonius]

Whirling Frenzy gives you an extra attack straight up. No offhand stuff. You can TWF with armor spikes or a boot spike and a greatsword.

If it's just a straight-up extra attack, why not have another go with the Greatsword? The damage would be greater. If I'm reading this right, you could have, at BAB10:
Normal: +10 Greatsword/+5Greatsword
Normal TWF: +8Armor Spikes/+8Boot Knife/+3Armor Spikes
Whirling Frenzy: +8 Greatsword/+8 Greatsword/+3 Greatsword
Whirling Frenzy TWF: +8 Greatsword/+6Armor Spikes/+6Boot Knife/+1Armor Spikes

None of the light weapons would apply any power attack. This really doesn't seem worth it, unless I'm missing something.

[Keld Denar]

Whirling Frenzy TWF: +8 Greatsword/+6Armor Spikes/+6Boot Knife/+1Armor Spikes

This one would be more like

+6 Greatsword/+6 Greatsword/+1 Greatsword/+6 Armor Spikes

No reason you couldn't make 3 attacks with your greatsword, and then make your offhand attack with your armor spikes. Doesn't really synergize with PA though, as you could take the -2 TWFing penalty, convert it to a -2 PA penalty, and across the 3 attacks you get from Whirling Frenzy, you'd get +12 damage, which should be as good or better than the damage you'd get from offhand armor spikes, but also less vulnerable to DR.

[Flickerdart]

With Skirmish, like any other precision damage, more attacks = more better. If you're going Warblade instead, then TWFing is not necessary.

[faceroll]

With Skirmish, like any other precision damage, more attacks = more better. If you're going Warblade instead, then TWFing is not necessary.

What's strong arm ranger from? Dragon? That lets you trade out TWF for power attack.

[Cog]

No reason you couldn't make 3 attacks with your greatsword, and then make your offhand attack with your armor spikes.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest.
Unfortunately, there is a reason.

[faceroll]

Unfortunately, there is a reason.

That attack isn't from high BAB, it's from a feat called two weapon fighting, which grants you an extra attack at your highest BAB, albeit at a -2 penalty to that and all other attacks.. Or that attack isn't from high BAB, it's from a class feature called whirling frenzy, which grants you an extra attack at your highest BAB, albeit at a -2 penalty to that and all other attacks.

[Cog]

A) You can make multiple attacks because you have a high BAB. Therefore B) you must make your attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest bonus.

[true_shinken]

A) You can make multiple attacks because you have a high BAB. Therefore B) you must make your attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest bonus.

That's not how it works. TWF gives you a bonus attack even if you have BAB +0. faceroll has it right.

[faceroll]

Excuse the rules lawyering, but here is how this breaks down:

"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest."

I've bolded the pieces that relate, and italicized the subject of the rule. The attacks you make in order are the multiple attacks from a high base attack bonus. If it simply said "...you must make attacks....", then it would apply, but the definite article there refers to the previous clause about iteratives from a high BAB.

[Cog]

Considering that the topic of the section is "Full Attacks", the antecedent of that "the attacks" isn't so clear. I hadn't considered that reading before, but now that I do, both are valid.

Given that, more flexibility is better. I don't think my original reading is wrong, but this one is better.

[WinWin]

Dread Commando makes for a decent skirmisher. Minor initiative buff for allies. Decent skills. The annoying prerquisites can be made more appealing by taking Elusive Target, plus you're set up for the Karmic Gambit. The wise Barbarian King would find negating Power Attack useful...especially if they intend on drawing attacks.

Emphasises Fighter over Barbarian mainly due to feats. Not sure how to make charisma important without changing the focus of the build entirely. Only thing I can think of is Iaijitsu Master...

[Flickerdart]

Zhentarim Soldier + Imperious Command seems like the obvious choice in that case - though more fitting for a king who rules by fear.