Why is 3.x Dragonlance stuff SO cheap?

[Ozreth]

Heck, the hardcover campaign setting is sold for 2.49 brand new on troll and toad as well as several other sites.

Did it just not sell well enough and now there is an over abundance?

[Yora]

I think it's just that people don't want it. Some who have it want to get rid of it, but with the low demand, you can't get any good prices.

[Amnestic]

I think it's just that people don't want it. Some who have it want to get rid of it, but with the low demand, you can't get any good prices.

Seems like the most likely explanation; it's just a far less popular campaign setting in 3.x than any of the others.

[McSmack]

But if you're looking for an emo world with whiny tortured halfelves, knights with mullets and no loot, this might be the campaign setting for you.

Seriously though. Dragonlance wasn't a hugely popular setting for various reasons. And so people are looking to get rid of the books.

[Ozreth]

But if you're looking for an emo world with whiny tortured halfelves, knights with mullets and no loot, this might be the campaign setting for you.

Seriously though. Dragonlance wasn't a hugely popular setting for various reasons. And so people are looking to get rid of the books.

Gotcha. Sad because AD&D Dragonlance seemed to do well, and the novels are of course very popular (I loved them). I've only flipped throug the campaign books before and they did seem a little weak.

[Kylarra]

It also has kender. Everyone hates kender.

[Amiria]

It also has kender. Everyone hates kender.

Really ? I thought kender are widely loved !

Hmm, but I can see that they might polarize.

[SurlySeraph]

Seriously though. Dragonlance wasn't a hugely popular setting for various reasons.

Out of curiosity, what reasons other than Kender and huge setting changes that pissed off the fans are there?

[nyarlathotep]

Out of curiosity, what reasons other than Kender and huge setting changes that pissed off the fans are there?

There are some very poorly thought out and poorly balanced abilities/classes/feat. Among them reserves of strength.

[GreyMantle]

Honestly, the morality of Dragonlance is just really disturbing in general. The gods are even bigger tools than they normally are in D&D worlds, and the way the setting wanks to morality is really kind of disturbing.

My main problem with it, though, was always that it always seemed to depend too much on whatever was happening at that point in the metaplot. I can skim through a Greyhawk book, or an Eberron book, or, as much as I dislike the setting, a Forgotten Realms book, and get a bunch of ideas for running games. But Dragonlance really just seemed to be more of a (long, extended) campaign than an actual campaign setting.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, for one thing, they're not first party. Therefore, despite being official, they tend not to get the same publicity.

For another thing, the setting is terrible. The probability of a fantasy....anything....being good is inversely proportional to the number of dragons on the cover. Dragonlance? Oh dear, we're screwed.

Kender. Kender are seriously the worst race ever invented. I've been in multiple games with them, and hated them every time. Oh, you may think that worse races exist...but people actually play kender, and do so horribly annoyingly.

It doesn't really make an effort to mesh with anything else. Lots of other books are either entirely setting independant, or include notes for adaptation to other settings. Dragonlance is not one they typically include such instructions for, nor does dragonlance care how it's stuff doesn't work with other things. Hope you enjoy playing the knights of knighty knightliness.

The authors of dragonlance might have known what balance was, but if so, they didn't much like it. We have basic races like gully dwarves, that end up with -4 to int AND cha, in return for a whopping +2 to dex and con. They gain such "bonuses" as cowardly and pitiable. Woohoo. On the other hand, we have a full caster PrC that can be taken at level 5 and has seven pages of bonuses. There's even a PrC based on diplomancy. Yes, that is EXACTLY what D&D needs. More powerful diplomacy. It also gives bonuses to that sadly underpowered feat known as leadership.

[McSmack]

I really loved the original books...when I was 12. When I went back and read them again as an adult, I discovered they were awful. Rastlin is pretty much the biggest tool in recorded history. This is exacerbated by the people who like him.
Yeah the people treat the barbarians badly, it's an allegory for racism, I got it. Stop beating me over the head with it.

I would disagree that kender are the most annoying race ever. I'd have to say gully dwarves have them beat.

[awa]

i cant say anything about dragon laces mechanics because i haven't seen its 3rd edition stuff.
But in defense of dragon lance i like how it seems more focused then say forgotten realms. my impression of dragon lance was their are a much smaller variety of monsters in my personally opinion having dozens of monster filling the same nich (particularly if they are all in the same era) weakens the setting so not having dozens of different humanoid races and so on always felt like a plus to me.

Although i always hated kender for the same reason i hate pixies they are just there so the person controlling them can screw with everyone else but your not allowed to get mad because they don't know any better.

[Kylarra]

There are some very poorly thought out and poorly balanced abilities/classes/feat. Among them reserves of strength.Reserves of strength is perfectly fine if you don't take the broken reading of it and just assume the uncapping is only for the 1-3 levels provided by the feat itself.

[stainboy]

It's funny, I'm trying to figure why I liked this setting so much when I was twelve. I could have sworn every book had either Tika, Kitiara, or Goldmoon half naked on the cover. But I'm looking through Google Images for examples, and these costumes are downright demure by fantasy standards.

Lesson learned: To a 12-year-old boy, everything looks like porn.


Back on topic, Dragonlance's world design is very... "reductionist" I guess is the word. They take Core, then decide what to cut because it doesn't fit the setting. The cuts are based on Weis and Hickman's prejudices and don't have to make sense to anyone else. No barbarians, because I guess no one in Dragonlance is angry. No paladins, because... um... no one in Dragonlance is a divine-powered warrior with a sweet mount? Wait a minute. I don't even have to ask to know there are no beguilers or swordsages in Dragonlance. It's not like Margaret Weis will personally come to your house and stop you from playing a psychic robot, but I still don't like it.

About moral themes: Tracy Hickman is a devout Christian. A backstory about the triumph of faith over humanism works for him, but it's hard for non-Christians to relate to. The Dragonlance gods are jerks.

[Sacrieur]

Because Kender stole the rest of the profits.

[Sydonai]

I liked the Draconians.....thats all I liked about the setting. I thought that Wizards being reflavoured Clerics was very stupid, especially with Sorcerers being unchanged.

[Hirax]

I like that it gives a people a minotaur they can use as a PC. Not a strong book mechanically though.

[HeadlessMermaid]

What's the problem with kender, exactly?

(I know nothing about kender. But I'm curious.)

[Jarian]

Their racial fluff is basically "We steal stuff. Yes, even that."

[Alleran]

Also, if you do a Google search for "bigznak why kender suck" you should come across a couple of images about them (specifically parts snipped from the DCS with notations and quotations added). I don't know if I can link directly to it because of the language used, but it's out there.


It also gives bonuses to that sadly underpowered feat known as leadership.
Just for the sake of asking, what class might this be, exactly?

*whistles innocently*

[Comet]

The books themselves, at least some of them, were really good fun and the best computer games birthed from the setting were nothing short of brilliant.

But yeah, I wouldn't want to play D&D in the setting. The Dragonlance world already has its heroes, so unless I could play those and decide the course of the original story anew I'm not really interested.

[awa]

the short version is kender were good aligned super klepto haflings who stole every thing near them with out even realizing they were doing it. but because their character sheet says good on it your not aloud to get mad or do anything about it

[Pentachoron]

Also, if you do a Google search for "bigznak why kender suck" you should come across a couple of images about them (specifically parts snipped from the DCS with notations and quotations added). I don't know if I can link directly to it because of the language used, but it's out there.


That was just so cathartic...

[Yora]

One thing the kender do well is completely overshadowing the other abomination that is tinker gnomes.

[SaintRidley]

One thing the kender do well is completely overshadowing the other abomination that is tinker gnomes.

I thought the tinker gnomes were amusing.


The big problem with Dragonlance as a campaign setting is that it's not a campaign setting. Instead, you get to play a game where you are a small part of the goings on of the Real Characters' plot and interesting story. And most of the time you aren't even a part of it. You're just doing stuff because the Real Characters are off being important.

[McSmack]

About moral themes: Tracy Hickman is a devout Christian. A backstory about the triumph of faith over humanism works for him, but it's hard for non-Christians to relate to. The Dragonlance gods are jerks.

Wait?! Tracy Hickman is a MAN?!
<Brain twitches, worldview shifts>
Okay I'm better now.

[Yora]

Happens to most people. :smallwink:

[Sydonai]

Playing in the DragonLance setting is best done in the pre-Cataclysm Era, right before the War of Souls( I'd choose to ignore it entirely in this case, and I'd send Soth back to Ravenloft), or right after the War of Souls.

[Wagadodo]

Actually there was an adventure path that was put out of Dragonlance that I would rate as one of the best adventures that I have ever seen the Dey of Destiny. I had a group play from 1st to 15th level in it. I will admit thought I am big Dragonlance Homer and like most things about the setting.

[starwoof]

Because Kender stole the rest of the profits.

They're just holding them for a while.

[stainboy]

No, I distinctly remember killing the kender PC in the starting tavern. Look, I've got his skull tied to my belt by the topknot, it says so right here on my character sheet. If he had the profits, they're in my pack now.

[Bad Situation]

Here's a rather amusing blog on Kenders. (http://challengerating25.blogspot.com/2008/12/kendaaagh.html)

And the sad part is, most of it is true. Players take the 'do whatever you want' license and just run with it. If Kenders seriously existed as a race they would have been realistically wiped out ages ago. They get to act like jerks but expect the world to just smile and nod? Because they're so goshdarned cute? Because they just can't help being such smarmy *******s?

No.

They are intelligent enough to understand thievery but get their britches in a bunch if they themselves are labeled a thief. What exactly sets them above a thief? The fact that they're just 'borrowing' the goods that you may or may not ever see again? Kender are like cockroaches, little pests.

And don't even get me started on Gully Dwarves.

[stainboy]

From the Comments section of Bad Situation's link...


My favorite character type is a Kender with an Aura of Peace from BoED. You sabotage everybody constantly and they can't do anything about it, not even get angry. If your DM is a gullible one, try sneaking in a Vow of Poverty on the excuse that Kender have no concept of personal property.

Actually if his party members can't make the save, all they have to do is back up 20 feet and attack at range. Thank you, kender, for teaching me how to kill someone through a Vow of Peace.

[TheGeckoKing]

Ogres, goblins and draconians think that the only good kender is roasted kender.

Good god, these people need to be given medals. Yes, all of them.

[Grendus]

Wait, a setting where ogres and goblins are the good guys? Behold, the magic of kender.

[awa]

you get a similar problem with pixies but at least pixies aren't humanoids and aren't expected to be playable or spend large amounts of time in cities.

[navar100]

Way back when in college I played 2E Dragonlance. One player did play a kender, but he did it well. He did pocket stuff but never from a party member. He was sneaky but only against the bad guys. He was terrific at taunting, coming up with the funniest insults. My favorite was when he told a red dragon "Your mother was a spell component!"

[Sydonai]

Yeah, 2nd Ed Kender are really fun. 3rd Ed Kender are a pain in the neck.

[Diamondeye]

That Bigznak stuff was hilarious! Just what I needed.

I loved Dragonlance when I was in middle school but even by the time high school rolled around, it started to suck. There was some potential on continents other than Ansalon, but when it came right down to it, it was all dragons all the time, except for when it was all Knights all the time or all elves all the time, with a seasoning of kender, and no one was allowed to tell any of the four what annoying twits or stuck-up prigs they were being, except for evil dragons.

[Bad Situation]

That Bigznak stuff was hilarious! Just what I needed.

I loved Dragonlance when I was in middle school but even by the time high school rolled around, it started to suck. There was some potential on continents other than Ansalon, but when it came right down to it, it was all dragons all the time, except for when it was all Knights all the time or all elves all the time, with a seasoning of kender, and no one was allowed to tell any of the four what annoying twits or stuck-up prigs they were being, except for evil dragons.

Whose opinions obviously didn't matter because they were evil or something, duh.

Yeah I disliked most of the characters in Dragonlance.

[Metahuman1]

Dragonlance, to truly work in it's 3.X form, has to have an utterly brilliant DM and solid players with plenty of experience under there belts.

Kender, all the player has to do is play against type a bit. Make a Druid or a Sorcerer and just be a Kender who doesn't steal and doesn't like the stero type thank you very much. Just an off the top of my head home fix for it.

And doing Age of Mortals allows it some room for the PC's too shine. I did one Age of Mortals game, were after leaving it so that all the Canon was now in the past, the PC's got a war between the Knight of Solomia and Neraka going, wiped out the Dark knights, almost wiped out the Solomic Knights, and ended up putting the party cleric and the other members in charge of most of the world. Then once they got into power, they were reviled to have a striking similarity to Hitler and the Nazi's, and the whole next campaign was building up a party of hero's to take them out and put the world back on the right track.

[Coidzor]

Kender, all the player has to do is play against type a bit. Make a Druid or a Sorcerer and just be a Kender who doesn't steal and doesn't like the stero type thank you very much. Just an off the top of my head home fix for it.

Oh man. My DM decided to add in Kender to his game recently. Possibly on a whim or because a girl he wants to sleep with wanted them for some insane reason and no one else was there at the time that understood how bad of an idea that was.

I about broke down and wept at that.


Then once they got into power, they were reviled to have a striking similarity to Hitler and the Nazi's, and the whole next campaign was building up a party of hero's to take them out and put the world back on the right track.

So the party slew the gods themselves? Awesome. :smallcool:

[Sacrieur]

Oh man. My DM decided to add in Kender to his game recently. Possibly on a whim or because a girl he wants to sleep with wanted them for some insane reason and no one else was there at the time that understood how bad of an idea that was.

I about broke down and wept at that.



So the party slew the gods themselves? Awesome. :smallcool:

Booty calls man. Plus Kenders are just pure awesome. Despite how much hate they get I want to just pick one up and hug 'em. Of course, they would steal my pants, but meh.

[awa]

If i recall correctly their are no gods in the age of mortal (if you ignore the war of souls near the end of the age of mortals)

[classy one]

Oh man. My DM decided to add in Kender to his game recently. Possibly on a whim or because a girl he wants to sleep with wanted them :

If by including them he did end up laying her then I am on the kender's side. Man has his needs.

[Milo v3]

I like dragonlance.
But I hate how:

Everything Revolves around dragons
Its always Good Verus Evil
Gnomes talk
Gnomes exist
That they added Alien Dragons into the mix (But the Every Dragon is 10 times the size world might be an awesome setting)


I can understand the Kender Hate (I don't 100% agree), but where is the Gnome Hate. I mean seriously they use Catapults as stairs (And in one non-cannon story a gnome created a nuke (Kind of)).

[Tyndmyr]

Also, if you do a Google search for "bigznak why kender suck" you should come across a couple of images about them (specifically parts snipped from the DCS with notations and quotations added). I don't know if I can link directly to it because of the language used, but it's out there.


Just for the sake of asking, what class might this be, exactly?

*whistles innocently*

The Righteous Zealot. At third level, you get the leadership feat for free. It also grants several bonuses to your leadership score and gives you new uses for diplomacy that affect entire crowds at once. Enjoy.

[Person_Man]

I spent precisely 1 game session in Dragonlance. One of the players was a Kender Paladin. I'm not even sure that it was allowed in Dragonlance rules. But it was literally the most frustrating and maddening game session I have ever played in, and I've played Call of Cthulhu. The only thing more annoying then a childish Chaotic Stupid unfunny kleptomaniac is a moralizing Lawful Stupid templar with Drizzt Syndrome.

[Sydonai]

Paladins don't exist in Krynn, the gods decided that they didn't fit the "theme". They can't get rid of the Kender becuase they can't commit genocide personally, Tahkisis tried, guess what happened to her.

[Milo v3]

Paladins and Blackguards don't exist becuse the two knight Prestige classes take their roles, but if you want you can add the Paladin in.

This is basically what it says on page 52 of the "Dragonlance Campaign Setting" Book.

[awa]

Im no fan of gnomes but tinker gnomes are pretty bad its just pepole actualy play kender and more importantly dms harrases pepole with kender more than they do so with tinker gnomes. also tinker gnomes fall into the crazy inventor role wich can be amusing on ocasion but the kender stealing your magic items is never fun.

[Sydonai]

Did Tinker Gnomes first appear in Spelljammer or Krynn?

[JadedDM]

People don't hate tinkers as much as kender, I assume, because fewer players will play tinkers (or gully dwarves, for that matter) than kender.

As a DM, I love kender. They are great. You know why? They actually do stuff. They further the game. This is especially useful when your players have just become too cautious.

Allow me to explain. Here's a typical scene from one of my games:

DM: You look into the room and see that it is simple and small, with a single chest sitting in the back. There is nothing else in the room you can see.
Player 1: Oh, man. It's probably trapped.
Player 2: Or something is waiting in ambush. Probably invisible or something.
Player 3: I throw a rock at the chest. What happens?
DM: The rock bounces off the chest and clatters to the ground. Nothing happens.
Player 1: Well, it's not a mimic or an illusion then.
Player 2: You don't know that for sure, though.
Player 3: Either way, it's not worth the risk. Let's move on.

And then nothing happens. Yes, the party wisely avoided what might have been a trap. They also missed whatever loot was in that chest. But most importantly, we just wasted a good deal of time talking, and nothing came from it. From a DM's perspective, that's boring.

I'm not saying I want my players to fall into traps and get hurt or die horribly, but if nobody ever takes any risks, why the heck are we adventuring in the first place?

Now let's look at that same scenario, with a kender involved.

DM: You look into the room and see that it is simple and small, with a single chest sitting in the back. There is nothing else in the room you can see.
Player 1: Oh, man. It's probably trapped.
Player 2: Or something is waiting in ambush. Probably invisible or something.
Kender: Booooring. I walk up to the chest and search for traps.
Player 1: Wait, no!
Player 2: Lame-brained, doorknob of a kender!
Player 3: I rush after him. If it's a trap, he'll need help. If it's not, there's no way I'm letting him go through the loot without supervision!

And that's why I like kender. They make things happen while everyone else cautiously stands around talking and weighing risks. This makes the game more fun and memorable, in my opinion. Oh, sure, it can dreadfully backfire. But once, I ran an adventure where the party reacted like in the first example for every single room they came across. And yes, they avoided a lot of fights and nobody died, but it nearly destroyed my very soul with boredom (and 90% of the loot was missed, too).

[JadedDM]

Did Tinker Gnomes first appear in Spelljammer or Krynn?

Krynn. Dragonlance was first created in 1984, gnomes included. Spelljammer was made later, in 1989. I suspect, though, that it was Spelljammer that made tinker gnomes more 'mainstream.'

[Amnestic]

Is describing the exact specifications of the completely mundane wooden spoon the Kender just pilfered from the tavern they're at really that exciting to you as a DM? :smalltongue: How about the blacksmith's tools? Or the small pot of incense in the magic components shop? Or the farm tools?

[awa]

in my experience a kender just try and steal the scene whenever anyone else tries to do anything the kender has to but in. Personally when i play i get annoyed on occasion when i am never allowed to do anything stealthy or cautiously because one or more party member insist on rushing ahead and poking everything.

[MrSinister]

Not to sound like a "setting elitist," but Weis and Hickman cried and moaned and stole Soth from Ravenloft. Poop on Dragonlance for that alone, in my opinion.

Also, didn't they kill Soth soon after? I swear the next Ravenloft game I run will have a whole story arc getting Soth back, somehow.

[MeeposFire]

Part of the problem is that there are already a lot of traditional fantasy style settings out there and DL is just one of many. When DL came out there were only a few settings and DL brought people in by its emphasis of awesome dragons (which is significant since 1e dragons were very weak so there was a demand for a setting with powerful dragons). This was also before Forgotten Realms. Nowadays DL is mostly redundant when compared to the likes of Forgotten Realms and it was not from the creator like Greyhawk so it was no longer unique in that regard and dragons were no longer a big draw either.

DL just lacks the specialness (and marketing since it could replace Forgotten Realms but the realms has more press and sells better) that attracts new people to it without having a previous fan bring you in.

[Coidzor]

Paladins don't exist in Krynn, the gods decided that they didn't fit the "theme". They can't get rid of the Kender becuase they can't commit genocide personally, Tahkisis tried, guess what happened to her.

Wait. The gods don't like them but the gods included them anyway? :smallconfused:


People don't hate tinkers as much as kender, I assume, because fewer players will play tinkers (or gully dwarves, for that matter) than kender.

As a DM, I love kender. They are great. You know why? They actually do stuff. They further the game.

Only because your players either are extremely patient or you've managed to fiat them from killing the Kender for groping them and stealing from them constantly. :smallconfused:

[Lappy9000]

Cheap D&D books?!

I have no shame...

[Sydonai]

Wait. The gods don't like them but the gods included them anyway? :smallconfused:



Only because your players either are extremely patient or you've managed to fiat them from killing the Kender for groping them and stealing from them constantly. :smallconfused:

Chaos( Yes, that Chaos) was imprisoned inside a Greater Artifact called the Graygem, which was created by Reorx( god of the forge). The gods decided not to tell any mortals about this and had a very hands-off approach to ruling the world. This eventually led to some Gnomes getting the Graygem.

The Gnomes discovered that the Graygem had enormous power inside it. One third decided that they didn't want anything to do with it and walked away the, second third wanted to split open the Graygem and use the power to satisfy their greed, and the last third just wanted to open the Graygem becuase they were curious about what was inside.
They broke the Graygem open and released Chaos. This resulted in the greedy Gnomes changing into Dwarves, and the curious Gnomes changing into Kender.

[Coidzor]

Chaos( Yes, that Chaos) was imprisoned inside a Greater Artifact called the Graygem, which was created by Reorx( god of the forge). The gods decided not to tell any mortals about this and had a very hands-off approach to ruling the world. This eventually led to some Gnomes getting the Graygem.

The Gnomes discovered that the Graygem had enormous power inside it. One third decided that they didn't want anything to do with it and walked away the, second third wanted to split open the Graygem and use the power to satisfy their greed, and the last third just wanted to open the Graygem becuase they were curious about what was inside.
They broke the Graygem open and released Chaos. This resulted in the greedy Gnomes changing into Dwarves, and the curious Gnomes changing into Kender.

Huh, how about that...Y'know, that's probably his single greatest act of evil, actually.

Must've been rather depressing actually, knowing that nothing you could ever do would top what happened as a result of you being freed/born/reborn.

[Metahuman1]

Oh man. My DM decided to add in Kender to his game recently. Possibly on a whim or because a girl he wants to sleep with wanted them for some insane reason and no one else was there at the time that understood how bad of an idea that was.

I about broke down and wept at that.



So the party slew the gods themselves? Awesome. :smallcool:

No, but like I said, we killed/destroyed/conquered almost everything else in the setting of note, except the elves, whom the Cleric and Party's Wizard and Rager all agreed where gonna be the "Master Race" for there purposes. The Minotaurs and Kender and Gullydwarves where reduced to like 0.2% of there respective populations by the time the next game started.

And too further my point that a Kender character the whole party likes or at least doesn't actively dislike is indeed dependent on the player.

Next game I built a Kender Sorcerer who had watched the army's of the previous party slaughter everyone else he'd ever cared about prior to starting the adventure, and thus had some anger issues and no real desire to steal unless it was from the people who where responsible for the slaughter (In this case, the former party's forces.). And his idea of stealing was more

Charm Person: "Would you be so kind as too give me everything on your person except your Skivvies?"

Then

Suggestion: "I suggest you give me everything on your person except your Skivvies."

And as he grew in levels came

Dominate Person: "Give me everything on your person, right now, that's an order. Oh, except your Skivvies, make sure you keep your skivvies."

And near the end of the game

Programmed Amnesia: "Since your entire purpose in life is to serve me, I want you to do so by taking the stuff I took from others and killing these filthy bastards!!!"

He was a lot of fun to play even though I only had one good stat. (Cha, naturally, and it was a really good stat.), and since he never tried to steal form the party and kept the groping to appropriate situations as his mind was on more serious matters, and since he buffed the party a lot before combat and provided minions no one minded sacrificing as needed and an occasional bit of boom-sticking/ nice-tricking, he was generally liked by players and characters.

Other fun stuff with him included dominating an evil cleric of the same deity the elves that were in the first party worshiped so he could use rebuke too make the Former party's Necromancer's undead go back too her form a patrol outside the tower she got between games during the time skip, But this time with a bitch load of explosive runes cast on them, so that if she even looked at one, she'd take double her her HP in damage assuming all the damage dice came up 1's and she made the save. (But yes that ate a good chunk of party wealth in the form of wands. )

And of course there was that one night we spent in the tavern at 10th lvl where the whole party got drunk. I awoke next morning too a Woman with a 18 Cha, lvl's in the Prc that makes you be a paladin in the setting for all practical intentions, and the DM had given her as part of her wealth by lvl the perches of an enlarge person spell and a permanency spell, so she was large sized and had I learned later (At the same time I found out her Cha.) a total Str between her original roll and her current boost form being Large of 25. And when I rolled an int check to remember her name, I was unable too do so. (Mind you at this point I had a 23 Cha with out magic items.)

Mechanically it lead to nothing, RP wise it was a riot at the table!

[awa]

the creators of dragon lance created lord soth how did they "steal" him

[JadedDM]

Not to sound like a "setting elitist," but Weis and Hickman cried and moaned and stole Soth from Ravenloft. Poop on Dragonlance for that alone, in my opinion.

Also, didn't they kill Soth soon after? I swear the next Ravenloft game I run will have a whole story arc getting Soth back, somehow.

Err, what? No. Hickman and Weis created Soth. Ravenloft stole it from them, and so they stole him back. Then killed him so he couldn't be stolen again.


Only because your players either are extremely patient or you've managed to fiat them from killing the Kender for groping them and stealing from them constantly.

Nobody has tried to kill any of the kender PCs that have run in my games so far...so it must be the former.

[SurlySeraph]

The Gnomes discovered that the Graygem had enormous power inside it. One third decided that they didn't want anything to do with it and walked away the, second third wanted to split open the Graygem and use the power to satisfy their greed, and the last third just wanted to open the Graygem becuase they were curious about what was inside.
They broke the Graygem open and released Chaos. This resulted in the greedy Gnomes changing into Dwarves, and the curious Gnomes changing into Kender.

...
The gnomes are the prudent ones, and dwarves and kender released Chaos into the world? And kender are supposed to consider creatures of perfect good? The hell with this setting.


No, but like I said, we killed/destroyed/conquered almost everything else in the setting of note, except the elves, whom the Cleric and Party's Wizard and Rager all agreed where gonna be the "Master Race" for there purposes. The Minotaurs and Kender and Gullydwarves where reduced to like 0.2% of there respective populations by the time the next game started.

I am horrified to conclude that I am perfectly fine with this.

[Sydonai]

The Gnomes who opened the Graygem transformed into Dwarves and Kender.

[Mutazoia]

It also has kender. Everyone hates kender.

And Tinker Gnomes....after dragon lance came out ..suddenly EVERY gnome everywhere became tinker gnomes.... *grrrrrr*

[Bad Situation]

There are too many damnable elves in Dragonlance.

[Coidzor]

No, but like I said, we killed/destroyed/conquered almost everything else in the setting of note, except the elves, whom the Cleric and Party's Wizard and Rager all agreed where gonna be the "Master Race" for there purposes. The Minotaurs and Kender and Gullydwarves where reduced to like 0.2% of there respective populations by the time the next game started.

Ok, so you guys chose Elves of all things to be the Master Race. And didn't finish off the job on Kender. That just raises so many questions. :smallconfused:

[Mutazoia]

Ok, so you guys chose Elves of all things to be the Master Race. And didn't finish off the job on Kender. That just raises so many questions. :smallconfused:

SOMEBODY has to clean up the mess....

[Coidzor]

SOMEBODY has to clean up the mess....

While the dex might help with cleaning those hard to reach places, I'm not sure you really want people who get sick easily to be your janitors, considering what they'd be needing to clean up and the work stoppage from illness.

[Sydonai]

There are too many damnable elves in Dragonlance.

Sun, Moon, Sea/Ocean, Wild......Actually there are less Elves than the default setting, there aren't any Green Elves or Drow in Krynn.

[Greenish]

Sun, Moon, Sea/Ocean, Wild......Actually there are less Elves than the default setting, there aren't any Green Elves or Drow in Krynn.Conclusion: there are too many damnable elves in the default setting.

[Mutazoia]

While the dex might help with cleaning those hard to reach places, I'm not sure you really want people who get sick easily to be your janitors, considering what they'd be needing to clean up and the work stoppage from illness.

"YOU! pick up those two bodies and throw them into the pit! Good...now jump in."

[Metahuman1]

Ok, so you guys chose Elves of all things to be the Master Race. And didn't finish off the job on Kender. That just raises so many questions. :smallconfused:

When the game started it wasn't really intended to go that far, it just sort of grew as we went along and became the big objective along with killing Frost and Cinder by lvl 10 or so. And that's relevant becuase the Wizard and Cleric Choose Elf as there race's before the plan was put into effect, and the Ranger was an Import that was intended for another game but never got played. She was a serial killer who hunted human males, and also an elf. She made an exception for the fighter becuase he killed so many other human males that it seemed counter productive too kill him in his sleep.

As for the Kender and what not, it wasn't that we weren't trying, it was that the Dm ruled that we couldn't wipe out all of them, just like the Nazi's failed to totally and completely exterminate ALL the Jews even though they tried there damnest. And as I explained, it ended up working out when we started the next game and My not Kender Like in overall Personality Kender helped the new party defeat the old party and over throw there rule, thus setting the stage for him to rebuild the Kender with all new racial Fluff.

Sadly, I moved before I had time to do that last item.

[TheGeckoKing]

Conclusion: there are too many damnable elves in the default setting.

Much better.

Also, I never even heard of Dragonlance until someone referenced to one of the books for the Dynamic Priest feats. The publicity just seems to be poor.
When I ask for generic Tolken-y fantasy, I get told to play Greyhawk.
When I ask for high level game settings, I get told to play Forgotten Realms (I do get some poor advice, mind you).
When I ask for low level game settings, I get told to play Eberron.
When I ask for piles of dreck called a campaign setting, i'm told to play F.A.T.A.L.

Dragonlance just isn't that well-known to casual gamers like me.

[Coidzor]

Dragonlance actually seems a bit more tolkieny with the Elf-love, whereas Greyhawk seems a bit more Conanesque but with a higher general tech level.

[Shpadoinkle]

My guess would be because Dragonlance introduced kender, and playing a kender is basically official sanction that acting like a horrible player and a world-class dumbass is not only okay, but encouraged.

[The Cat Goddess]

I really loved the original books...when I was 12. When I went back and read them again as an adult, I discovered they were awful. Rastlin is pretty much the biggest tool in recorded history. This is exacerbated by the people who like him.
Yeah the people treat the barbarians badly, it's an allegory for racism, I got it. Stop beating me over the head with it.

I would disagree that kender are the most annoying race ever. I'd have to say gully dwarves have them beat.

I'd like to introduce you to Elric of Melniboné (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheElricSaga)...