Bardic Flak

[Zergrusheddie]

The Bard is a class that always gets a load of flak for being useless. I have heard it pretty much at every table I have ever played that Mr. Useless is usually a Bard and even Order of the Stick has the dumbest character as a Bard. Bards are Tier 3 classes, and yet there is this thought that they are not as good as Fighters. Why is this so?

Best of luck.
-Eddie

[Cog]

In Core, bards are relatively weak. Their jack-of-all-trades schtick is hard to pull off, and 3.5 rewards specialization. However, they got a lot of splatbook love, letting them either pull off generalist or focus really well in any number of areas; the folks who come here, or who take the time to do tier rankings, are going to be the ones into the game enough to be more familiar with that additional material.

[Eldan]

Really, the bard is higher than the fighter because he has class features and can do stuff. All the fighters class features result in higher numbers. The bard at least gets amusing spells.

They also get much better if you use their Use Magic Device to full effect.

Plus, they are a bit silly, really.

[big teej]

it's too early in the morning to track down the comic, but even Elan says it's pretty silly to SING at people for your contribution to combat.

furthermore, as I understand it, bards are ALWAYS advertised as a 'jack of all trades' sort of character.

sure, they can do everything, but they 'suck' at it.


I believe this is where the stigma draws from.

but it's entirely possible I'm super far off the mark.

[Mordokai]

In Core, bards are relatively weak. Their jack-of-all-trades schtick is hard to pull off, and 3.5 rewards specialization. However, they got a lot of splatbook love, letting them either pull off generalist or focus really well in any number of areas; the folks who come here, or who take the time to do tier rankings, are going to be the ones into the game enough to be more familiar with that additional material.

Pretty much this. Slap some Virtuoso or Sublime Chord levels on your bard and she becomes much more powerful. And that's hardly the height of optimisation.

And most of all, bards are fun. Unlike just "I hit it with my sword... I hit it again" shtick that fighters have going on, they can actually be effective in multitude of situations and have more than one way to contribute to party. You'd be hard pressed to claim that for fighter.

[Amnestic]

Plus, they are a bit silly, really.

If a Tibbit bard having Perform (Dance) while in kitty-form is considered 'silly', I don't want to be normal. :smallamused:

I love me some Bards. They can spellcast, support, face and fight on the frontlines. I think my main complaint is that they could be considered overly feat intensive (then again, what class isn't?), which tends to favour humans (and flaws) a lot more than other races.

[Croverus]

My Bard sang at people in combat... and blew out their eardrums with sonic damage :smallamused:. The fact that a Bard has access to magic makes him a step above a Fighter. Heck, combine a silent image and a ghost sound and you can convince a charging orc to run right off a cliff cause he thinks there is an enemy there.

Also no one can bed the evil sorceress as well as the Bard. Elan proves this.

Edit: Now I have ot resist the urge to go recruit for an all Bard party...

[Gullintanni]

At the height of optimization (UMD abuse + Sublime Chord/Virtuoso + Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration optimization) Bards actually break into the Tier 2 realm. They get 9th level sorcerer spells, offer tons of elemental damage, with Lingering song, can boost Attack and Physical Attack rolls by using Inspire Courage and DFI together, have a great skill selection that includes UMD...

Add Snowflake Wardance and Slippers of Battledancing or Gauntlets of Heartfelt blows, and Bards can even do melee pretty well. None of this even gets into their Diplomancy or Leadership potential.

Including splatbooks, Bards can do just about everything pretty well (Tier3) and one or two things that break the game altogether (Tier 2). With maximum optimization, bards are incredibly potent characters.

Most people who discredit bards as useless have one of two things in common...
1. They've only got access to core. In which case it's hard to make a bard really shine.
2. They haven't gone digging through splatbooks for bard stuff. A lot of the support bards got is scattered throughout many sourcebooks and looks unimpressive on its own. All of those little bonuses synergize very well though, and when compounded, make for a potentially game breaking character.

[Gwendol]

Bards are built for fun: good looking and with excellent social skills they should be able to bed anything.

[Amphetryon]

A Bard with some combination of Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance, and Knowledge Devotion is going to:

A) Fight better than most iterations of Fighty McFighterson
B) Make every other member of the team fight better by an order of magnitude
C) Have the ability to contribute to things that aren't solved by "I hit it"
D) Cast spells that can end combats before they start
E) All of the above.

[Zergrusheddie]

I'm not sure. Bards can buff themselves to be competent melee Fighters, have spells that can really ruin someone's day (Grease, Confusion), and give everyone bonuses to attack. They can also do extremely nasty things out of combat with Diplomacy and Glibness. I can understand why they are not super powerful, but I don 't understand this entire concept of Bards being inherently crappy. I know that splat books give massive bonuses to Bards but they are still decent Core Only and are probably better off than most other classes Core Only.

[MarkusWolfe]

There is simply no party face better than the bard.

First, he has a high Charisma, a great boon for all social dealings.

Second, he has both 6+INT skill points per level (7+INT if he's a human) and a skill set that means he can invest full ranks in most of or even all of the following skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information and Sense Motive. Intimidate may be a cross-class skill for him, but consider:

A) If your party often uses intimidation when dealing with other people, you don't need a party face, you need the party to intimidate as a group.

B) Regardless of how often it is used, the Intimidate skill should be left to someone other than the party face, often the fighter or barbarian, so that the party face can save himself a skill point every level, maintain his reputation as a reasonable fellow and have someone to play good cop bad cop with.

C) With a high Charisma and 2 synergy points from bluff, the bard should be ahead of the curve for intimidation for the lower levels.

D) The guy can already lie his face off and communicate by innuendo, convince other people not to stab you but in fact to help you, disguise the group as foreign merchants to sneak into the city as well as important nobles to sneak into the royal ball later that night, gather all the information you could ever want AND tell when the other guy is lying. What more could you ask of him?

Third, he may have leftover skill points to invest in knowledges. While he will probably focus on history first to improve his bardic knowledge, he may also invest them in local and nobility and royalty, which grant synergy bonuses to Gather Information and Diplomacy respectively.

Fourth, he will definitely have maximized ranks in Perform. Perform can improve peoples attitudes the same way Diplomacy can, with the same DCs and everything.

Fifth, he can fascinate 1 subject at level 1, 2 subjects at level 4, 3 subjects at level 7 and so on with a use of his bardic music. Starting at level 6 he can, at absolutely no cost, use a suggestion spell on one of the creatures he has fascinated. At level 18, he can use a suggestion on every creature that he has fascinated.

And finally, if the bard has full ranks in Perform (Oratory), it may be possible to use bardic music and Bluff or Diplomacy at the same time.


And that's not even going into how useful a bard is as a party buffer.

[Keld Denar]

I explicitly remember helping you build a Bardblade about 2ish years ago. How can you even ask this?

lulz

[gorfnab]

With the right builds bards can be scary and extremely versatile.

Caster
Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8
Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8

Tank
Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8

Ranged
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3

[MarkusWolfe]

With the right builds bards can be scary and extremely versatile.

Caster
Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8
Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8

Tank
Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8

Ranged
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3

Why don't I see War Chanter in there? Take the first 5 levels, and you get to combine any 2 bardic songs to provide the benefit of both!

[Telonius]

One problem with Bards is that the penalties for poor choices in feats and spells are pretty severe. Yeah, you can work with your DM to retrain, but without a few very key things - the aforementioned Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance, and Knowledge Devotion - they rapidly descend into suckitude much faster than some other classes do. (And if those key things are unavailable, tough luck). You really, really have to plan out what feats and PrCs you're going to take. There are some shiny sparkly traps, like Master of Masks, that seem like they'd be just perfect for you, but leave you utterly useless when everybody else is dealing 20d6+800 charge damage or telling the laws of physics where to stick it. It's possible for other full-casters like a Druid or a Cleric to spend all their career sucking. But even in the unlikely event that happens, they can wake up one morning with a good selection of spells and break the game by accident.

[Zaq]

Bards are T3, yes (I'd argue that they're practically the definition of T3, next to the Warblade), but if they're not the least self-optimizing T3, they're damn close to it.

Most (not all, but most) T3 classes are pretty easy to work with. A Beguiler has all the spells he needs just out of the box (yes, Advanced Learning, but you don't strictly need AL to function and contribute). A Crusader can just pick maneuvers with cool names and still be competent. A Totemist does require knowledge of which binds are really worth it for which natural attacks, but it's not that hard, and they're easy to fix. A DFA (which is admittedly on the border between T3 and T4) is pretty decent out of the box (and perfectly acceptable out of the box if you just take Entangling Exhalation and Endure Exposure). A brand new player can take any of those classes and contribute with them. Not as well as a seasoned veteran can, of course, but that's always going to be the case.

A Bard, though? Playing a good Bard takes some knowledge and system mastery. Yes, it takes book diving. Even basic Inspire Courage optimization has you cracking open ECS (Song of the Heart), SpC (Inspirational Boost), and MIC (Badge of Valor) . . . and that's without Dragonfire or Words of Creation. That's hard for someone who's new to the game. Likewise, Bards have to be judicious with resource management. They have to be really careful with their spells (a player who wants a Bard to be a Sorcerer is going to be very sad after an encounter or two), they have to be careful with their skill points (the temptation to do a little bit of everything and not enough of anything is tempting . . . yes, you know and I know about Bardic Knack, but a newbie doesn't), and they have to be careful with even their music (less so at high levels unless you've got a whole bunch of effects keyed to it, but still). Worse, they're spontaneous casters with very few spells known, so you have to make all of them count.

Played well, Bards kick ass and are a blast (both to play and to play alongside). They're relatively easy to mess up, though, which gives a lot of players a bad first impression that never really goes away. Shame, really.

[gorfnab]

Why don't I see War Chanter in there? Take the first 5 levels, and you get to combine any 2 bardic songs to provide the benefit of both!
Still not as useful as 9th level spells in my opinion.

[holywhippet]

A bard is a parties best friend even if they aren't a one person killing machine. In combat they can buff and heal allies with magic or debuff their enemies. Outside of combat, they are built for getting information and making people like them.

In one game I built a bard - he was only level 2 (and the first level was rogue). He had a base diplomacy of about 13 IIRC after stat and synergy bonuses. That kind of diplomacy score opens a lot of doors.

Also, a bard is in some ways a double sorcerer. They get their normal spells per day, but can also pick their bard songs to match the situation. Countersong by itself could be a life saver if you have party members with a weak saving throw bonus.

[Leon]

Even in Core a Bard is very useful and versatile character - They have a good selection of buff abilities and the capability to mix it up in combat if needed (defend the 3rd line classes if something breaks through the first line).

The Music Abilities are some what situational but can be extremely impressive in those situations (3 Hill giants Fascinated and suggested to go to sleep = 3 easy kills)

I miss our Bard and his Good Hope spell - amazing when stacked with Prayer.

[Eldan]

If a Tibbit bard having Perform (Dance) while in kitty-form is considered 'silly', I don't want to be normal. :smallamused:

I love me some Bards. They can spellcast, support, face and fight on the frontlines. I think my main complaint is that they could be considered overly feat intensive (then again, what class isn't?), which tends to favour humans (and flaws) a lot more than other races.

Oh, so do I. As a player Bards are my favourite core class by far. Plus, the few bards that show up in literature are all awesome.

[faceroll]

Mechanically, and even in core, bards are awesome. It's just that the people that criticize bards tend to favor weapon focus and fireball, and don't realize that Grease, Glitterdust, Haste, and Inspire Courage have incredible force multiplying effects.

A bard is a lot less useful if he doesn't have friends, just like Batman & GOD wizards. This can be misconstrued as "useless".

[Gullintanni]

Why don't I see War Chanter in there? Take the first 5 levels, and you get to combine any 2 bardic songs to provide the benefit of both!

You don't need War Chanter to get the benefit of two bard songs. Take Lingering Song and your songs last for ten rounds after you stop playing. The correct application of this is as follows:

Round 1: Inspire Courage
Round 2: Song 2 - Either DFI or IG depending on your build.
Round 3: ???
Round 4-10: Profit


Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance, and Knowledge Devotion - they rapidly descend into suckitude much faster than some other classes do. (And if those key things are unavailable, tough luck). You really, really have to plan out what feats and PrCs you're going to take.

I just wanted to say that none of the above three things are necessary. Inspire Courage optimization is fine without DFI. Vanilla IC is pretty strong. It provides a static bonus to damage that multiplies well, and adds a solid melee attack bonus. That means more power attacking. With Virtuoso + Sublime Chord, you get 9th level sorcerer casting and can draw off of the sorcerer and bard list. Top that off with IC and attach it to a solid skill-monkey chassis, and you really don't need anything else.

Snowflake Wardance and Knowledge devotion are only really important if you want to jump into melee. Dragonfire Inspiration is incredibly powerful, but entirely unnecessary. Bards have plenty of powerful tricks in their bag outside of those three.

[FMArthur]

Sublime Chord has almost nothing to do with Bards being great. Sublime Chord being awesome just means that Sublime Chord is awesome - it dominates the build.

Bardic Music and all the things that power it up and add functionality to it, as well as the great social prowess that comes from the skills, knowledge features and social* spells that Bards have access to are the main strengths of the class.

*But really, the complete circumvention of all real social challenges via "I win this relationship" tricks is probably closer to antisocial behaviour than social.

[Cog]

But really, the complete circumvention of all real social challenges via "I win this relationship" tricks is probably closer to antisocial behaviour than social.
Depends on what you consider to be the source of those tricks. Spellcasting relies on outside energies, sure, so that's out. Bardic music and skills seem much more like fully internal abilities to me, though. It might be a trick by game mechanic standards, but to me it represents the character being just that damn charismatic.

To me, of course. Variable mileage and all that.

[Gullintanni]

Sublime Chord has almost nothing to do with Bards being great. Sublime Chord being awesome just means that Sublime Chord is awesome - it dominates the build.

Bardic Music and all the things that power it up and add functionality to it, as well as the great social prowess that comes from the skills, knowledge features and social* spells that Bards have access to are the main strengths of the class.[/I]

I've never liked that argument, and I see it all the time on this board. Of course Sublime Chord is awesome, because Sublime Chord is awesome...by the same token, Dragonfire Inspiration is awesome because it's awesome. Knowledge Devotion is awesome because it's awesome.

Neither has anything to do with Bards being great. If you evaluate the Bard purely on the strengths of the class alone, then you have to limit yourself to the class alone...

DFI and Sublime Chord both have in common that they build on and enhance the Bard framework. Absent that, Sorcerer and Wizard are both better. Sublime Chord is only (arguably) preferable to Sorcerer BECAUSE it exists on top of the Bard framework.

And to Sublime Chord dominating the build? Only insofar as 9th level spells dominate every build. But the reason the Bard is truly terrifying is not the Sublime Chord spells...it's the fact that a properly built Bard can DFI + IC while casting 9th Level spells, or skillmonkeying or jumping into combat at its option. All by itself, Sublime Chord is lackluster at best.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Bards are awesome, man.

Bard can, with a bluff check and five minutes of roleplay, turn Harvey Dent into Two-Face.

Pumping IC benefits everyone in the party who makes attacks

Sublime Chord can get you 9th level spells on a skillmonkey chassis

Bardblade is a party leader with solid HD and BAB, and can make even disposable minions into viable threats for CR equivalent encounters.

[Zergrusheddie]

I explicitly remember helping you build a Bardblade about 2ish years ago. How can you even ask this?

lulz

Aye. Had a lot of fun with that character. Again, thank you.

I do not think Bards are weak. I really see them as Tier 3 along with Beguilers. What I do not understand is the misconception that Bards are weak. That's the point of my post. Not "why do Bards suck?!" but "why do people think Bards suck?!"

[Greenish]

it's too early in the morning to track down the comic, but even Elan says it's pretty silly to SING at people for your contribution to combat.It's not exactly an unheard of concept… (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePowerOfRock)

Now I have ot resist the urge to go recruit for an all Bard party...I've always wanted to try one too. :smallcool:

[MeeposFire]

Bards have that stigma for a couple reasons

1) Boosting others is not sexy-It is very powerful to buff your friends but it tends to get forgotten since you are not the one doing the hitting for large numbers. Even in core if you are giving the entire party a +4 to hit and damage the warrior guy can make that +12 damage with power attack. Thats a lot of bonus damage in core for something with 0 investment. People just don't notice until you show them how nasty you can be (you will turn heads if you just buff yourself and go to town believe me).

2) Powerful in these conversations tends to relate to relate to combat only-bards are the masters of out of combat awesome but since so many people only think of combat they disregard it (and since they are still good in combat you don't get the bad at combat problem). The ever popular tier system around here points out that one major factor in determining tier status is out of combat usage. This is not 4e it is very easy to make yourself useless out of combat if you are not careful and being useless out of combat becomes unfun for most.

3) Most importantly is the idea of a bard sounds silly to them. Due to this no matter how good they really are they just won't give it the credit it is due.

Heck even in the Gamers movie in question if you pay attention despite all the crap they lay at the bard's feat if you look you will notice that without the bard they may not have finished the adventure at all. The bard was useful all over the place except in combat where he died all the time.

[Zaq]

Edit: Now I have ot resist the urge to go recruit for an all Bard party...

I've done it. It's totally worth it. Do it.

[MeeposFire]

Have each specialize in different songs and spells (one should be a level 10 warchanter) and you have a party that is much better than the sum of its parts.

[fryplink]

remember that the jack-of-all-trades feat and bardic knack ACF are beautiful together. They allow you to specialize in skills, and pull off being a generalist without needing a huge INT score.