Is this right for gestalt?

[danzibr]

If I went, say, Fighter1/Wizard19//Psion20 I'd have a BAB of +20? Something seems strange about this.

Or if I went some clever combination of Fighter + Wizard + Abjurant Champion + Swiftblade + Eldritch Knight I could have 20/20 caster levels and +20 BAB? And all the nifty abilities?

[begooler]

I thought Psion had wizard BAB. In which case, no you would not have BAB 20.
I think what you were doing there is offsetting which level the BAB increases for the wizard and saying you got a BAB each level because every level that the wizard didn't get it the psion did?
No, that's not how it works.
For this situation, you should use the fractional BAB to be accurate.
Wizard = 1/2, Psion = 1/2
Each level you decide which 1/2 is better.

[danzibr]

I thought Psion had wizard BAB. In which case, no you would not have BAB 20.
I think what you were doing there is offsetting which level the BAB increases for the wizard and saying you got a BAB each level because every level that the wizard didn't get it the psion did?
No, that's not how it works.
For this situation, you should use the fractional BAB to be accurate.
Wizard = 1/2, Psion = 1/2
Each level you decide which 1/2 is better.

That is indeed the mistake I was making. Thank you.

However, it seems I could still get the +20 BAB and full casting with the aforementioned combination of classes. Every level I should be able to pick a +1 BAB and a caster level.

[Binks]

That is indeed the mistake I was making. Thank you.

However, it seems I could still get the +20 BAB and full casting with the aforementioned combination of classes. Every level I should be able to pick a +1 BAB and a caster level.

...which is kind of the point of gestalt...and wizard 20//fighter 20 is not the best you can do by a long shot.

[begooler]

Yes. Simply Fighter//Wizard will give you full casting and full BAB. There are much better avenues to this of course.
Just remember, you are only supposed to PrC on one side.

[danzibr]

...which is kind of the point of gestalt...and wizard 20//fighter 20 is not the best you can do by a long shot.

I was just using that as an example, but thank you.

I'll come back in a few hours and say what I had in mind (when I actually figure it out). The only PrC'ing on one side is going to throw a wrench in my plans though.

[Yora]

If I went, say, Fighter1/Wizard19//Psion20 I'd have a BAB of +20? Something seems strange about this.
I think this gets you a BAB of +11.
+1 at 1st level for being Ftr1. And Another +1 at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th and 20th level for being psion.

Ah, now I see how you ended up with this.
It'd also be +1 at 3rd, 5th, 7th... level for being a Wizard.

Gestalt is odd.

[danzibr]

I think this gets you a BAB of +11.
+1 at 1st level for being Ftr1. And Another +1 at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th and 20th level for being psion.

Ah, now I see how you ended up with this.
It'd also be +1 at 3rd, 5th, 7th... level for being a Wizard.

Gestalt is odd.

Wait, so you're agreeing with me? Or just seeing my mistake?

[Epsilon Rose]

That only happens IF they're using fractional bab, otherwise offsetting your levels to get an extra high bab is perfectly valid.

[PetterTomBos]

Gestalt seems .. powerful..

Like H.lvl. D&D wasn't wacky enough to being with ;)

[danzibr]

That only happens IF they're using fractional bab, otherwise offsetting your levels to get an extra high bab is perfectly valid.

Do you happen to know which is RAW? I'm not sure which book gestalt comes from.

[erikun]

Gestalt is the better progression of the two sides. Psion 20 is +10 BAB. Fighter 1/Wizard 19 is +10 BAB. The Fighter1/Wizard19//Psion 20 would have +10 BAB, the better of the two.

A Fighter 1/Wizard 1//Psion 2 may get an increase of +1 BAB on the Psion side, but it's still +1 on one side and +1 on the other. The better of the two is +1, not +2.

[Pentachoron]

I think this gets you a BAB of +11.
+1 at 1st level for being Ftr1. And Another +1 at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th and 20th level for being psion.

Ah, now I see how you ended up with this.
It'd also be +1 at 3rd, 5th, 7th... level for being a Wizard.

Gestalt is odd.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. When you gestalt you compare the values on each side. For example, if you were to go Fighter1/Wizard19//Psion20, you would wind up with +10 because at character level 1 you'd have fighter 1//psion1, side one has a higher BAB, so you keep the +1, at level two both sides have a +1, so use whichever side, at character level three side 1 has +2 BAB and side 2 has +1 still. This pattern continues until character level 20 when side one has +10 and side 2 has +10.


*Edit* Swordsaged every time.


Also, the 1 PrC thing is more of a suggestion for DMs than a hardset rule, I'd speak to the individual DM.

[Kyrinthic]

If you dont use the fractional rules, I believe that RAW would get you 20 by level 20. Of course if you are playing gestalt and not using the fractional rules, well, thats just bad and makes room for all kinds of cheese, if you think BAB gets bad, wait till you see what you can get out of saves that way :)

-Kyrinthic

[Pentachoron]

If you dont use the fractional rules, I believe that RAW would get you 20 by level 20. Of course if you are playing gestalt and not using the fractional rules, well, thats just bad and makes room for all kinds of cheese, if you think BAB gets bad, wait till you see what you can get out of saves that way :)

-Kyrinthic

Even with fractional you'd wind up with 10.5 on one side and 10 on the other, for BAB. You take the better of each side, you do not combine them.

[Yora]

I assumed it was better of each sides at each level. Better at each side as a whole makes a lot more sense.

[Douglas]

Even with fractional you'd wind up with 10.5 on one side and 10 on the other, for BAB. You take the better of each side, you do not combine them.
I'm pretty sure the idea of gestalt is that you take the better at each level. Otherwise anything but the simplest of builds gets really screwy and either nearly impossible to figure out what it actually gets or nonsensical results about which changes would or would not actually change things. It's not Fighter 1/Wizard 19 is 10.5 and Psion is 10, but Fighter 1//Psion 1 is 1 and all 19 levels of Wizard//Psion are .5 each for 1+(19*.5) = 10.5 total.

[erikun]

If you're not using fractions, you might want to check how close you can get to +40 saves at level 20. How many classes grant all good saves? Dragons, Outsiders, and Dire Animals have all good saves, as does the Monk. Any others?

[Cog]

A Monk//Favored Soul with anything to offset it could pull that off.

[IthroZada]

I don't have the link on me, but CustServ did confirm that the BAB would be 20. I wouldn't personally rule that way, but by RAW, you do take the best at each level, and do not determine it as a whole..

Edit: When CustServ confirmed this it was a different example, involving barbarians and artificers. And something else.

[Tyndmyr]

If you dont use the fractional rules, I believe that RAW would get you 20 by level 20. Of course if you are playing gestalt and not using the fractional rules, well, thats just bad and makes room for all kinds of cheese, if you think BAB gets bad, wait till you see what you can get out of saves that way :)

-Kyrinthic

Both are hilarious. Especially if you enjoy dipping.

[erikun]

A Monk//Favored Soul with anything to offset it could pull that off.
I mean taking the first level of 20 classes with all good saving throws, getting +2 each time for a total of +40 at level 20. A 1 HD Outsider with 1 level of Monk and 1 level of Favored Soul gets +6 saves. The Shadow Sun Ninja prestige class also has good saves, so 1 HD Outsider/Monk 1/Favored Soul 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 1 (somehow) all on one side gives +8 saves at 4th level.

By comparison, a straight Monk of Favored Soul would have +8 at 12th level. I was just curious as to how much further it can be taken.

[Cog]

I mean taking the first level of 20 classes with all good saving throws, getting +2 each time for a total of +40 at level 20.
Whoops. Yeah, I got my math wrong on that.

Edit: I did a quick run-through of Those Infamous Lists(TM) and counted 17 PrCs with all good saves. The lists aren't perfect, but that's far enough shy of the number of classes you'd need to make me think it's unlikely.

[Epsilon Rose]

The rules come from UA but can also be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm).
Under normal rules you take the best of each level. As for taking 1 level in lots of classes to get ridiculously high saves... You can do that, but you could do that normally. I doubt it's particularly optimal under either scenario.

[Kylarra]

The rules come from UA but can also be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm).
Under normal rules you take the best of each level. As for taking 1 level in lots of classes to get ridiculously high saves... You can do that, but you could do that normally. I doubt it's particularly optimal under either scenario.It's pretty easy. Just stack a fullcaster on one side and then go for your ++save setup on the other.

[Cog]

Under normal rules you take the best of each level.
Specifically, you take the best progression of each level. Wizard, for example, doesn't sometimes give you +1 BAB and sometimes +0; it progresses at a rate of 0.5 per level. BAB can progress at 1, .75, or .5 per level, and saves can progress at .5 or .333... per level. Keep in mind that, in 3.5, any fraction less than a whole rounds down; thus a Cleric 1 has a BAB of .75, which is effectively 0, but the next .75 carries it up over 1.

[IthroZada]

I did find the CustServ quote that stated you take the best at each level. I'm sure that the validity of CustServ can be questioned, and I personally would take some convincing to use their ruling if I were the DM, but here it is for those that wish to play that way and need a backing.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870266/Gestalt_Resource,_the_combos_Wizards_dont_want_you _to_know?post_id=338348594#338348594

Rob, Customer Service]Corzat,
Thank you for writing. You first answer is the correct application of these rules. One of the great benefits of making a Gestalt character is that you can pick and choose the best BAB every level. Therefore you can pick the class that receives a bonus at each level and disregard any levels of your other class that do not.

Please let me know if you need anymore help!

Good Gaming!

Rob
Customer Service Representative



Fractional BAB seems the best way to do this to me though.

[TurtleKing]

Why not just go Psychic Warrior on one side and Wizard on the other?

[Pentachoron]

The rules come from UA but can also be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm).
Under normal rules you take the best of each level. As for taking 1 level in lots of classes to get ridiculously high saves... You can do that, but you could do that normally. I doubt it's particularly optimal under either scenario.

Exactly, you take the best BAB on that side.

So if you're Fighter1/Wizard19//Psion20

It's

Level1: 1//0
Level2: 1//1
Level3: 2//1
Level4: 2//2
Level5: 3//2
Level6: 3//3
Level7: 4//3
Level8: 4//4
Level9: 5//4
Level10: 5//5
Level11: 6//5
Level12: 6//6
Level13: 7//6
Level14: 7//7
Level15: 8//7
Level16: 8//8
Level17: 9//8
Level18: 9//9
Level19: 10//9
Level20: 10//10

An example of what I'm saying: At level two, on side one, the base attack bonus is +1 because Fighter1 gives +1 and Wizard1 gives +0, the base attack bonus on side two is +1 because Psion2 gives a BAB of +1, you can pick either because they're equal.

At level 13 the BAB on side one is 7, +1 from Fighter1 and +6 from Wizard12. The BAB on side two is +6 from Psion13 (+6.5 if you use fractional), you would pick +7 because side one is higher.

You can't combine attack bonuses the way you're trying to by RAW because the wording is BAB progression.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Gestalt is an incomplete rule set. You're going to have to make various patches and fill in the blanks just to make it functional. Fractional or 'better one-side total' both work; just pick your favorite and move on. Just keep in mind that custserv is not RAW, and it often contradicts itself.

[Cog]

"Sides" don't exist in that way in the gestalt rules. You aren't actually, say, a Fighter 10//Wizard 10; you're a Fighter//Wizard 10. (You don't get a d4 and a d10; you just get a d10.) The former phrasing is merely convenient shorthand when it comes to more complicated builds.

If you did have sides, you could alternate instead, something like:
Ftr1/Wiz1 +1/+0
Wiz2/Psi1 +1/+0
Psi2/Wis3 +1/+0
Wiz4/Psi3 +1/+0
...And still get full BAB by DuncanIdaho488's method.

[SurlySeraph]

As written, it does indeed look like a Fighter 1/ Wizard 19// Psion 20 has full BAB. And I'm fine with that, because it's hilarious.


I mean taking the first level of 20 classes with all good saving throws, getting +2 each time for a total of +40 at level 20. A 1 HD Outsider with 1 level of Monk and 1 level of Favored Soul gets +6 saves. The Shadow Sun Ninja prestige class also has good saves, so 1 HD Outsider/Monk 1/Favored Soul 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 1 (somehow) all on one side gives +8 saves at 4th level.

By comparison, a straight Monk of Favored Soul would have +8 at 12th level. I was just curious as to how much further it can be taken.

There aren't that many classes that get all good saves. After flipping through a list of PrCs, my first thought is Magic-Blooded Tiefling Monk 2/ Favored Soul 2/ Tiefling Paragon 2/ Prestige Paladin 2/ SS Ninja 2/ Tattooed Monk 2/ Apostle of Peace 2/ Initiate of Pistis Sophia 2/ Heir of Siberys 2/ Prophet of Erathaol 2.

That gets base +23 Fort and +21 Reflex and Will saves, plus Divine Grace. Trading out the Prestige Paladin levels for Outsider hit dice would make it +23 to all but no Divine Grace, which wouldn't be worth it.
However, qualifying will be extremely difficult.
Prophet of Erathaol requires 4th-level spells, which I can't get without shenanigans.
IoPS requires Ki Strike (Lawful); I think there's a way to get it many levels early, but I can't remember how. If I'm wrong, I need to drop those levels.
Vow of Poverty handles the ridiculous number of Exalted feats I need pretty well, though I still need to take Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty itself, Endurance, Martial Study (any Setting Sun), Martial Study (any Shadow Hand), Mounted Combat (can skip by taking regular paladin instead of prestige), Spell Focus (Divination), and Heroic Spirit, meaning I need to take at least one flaw.

[danzibr]

Specifically, you take the best progression of each level. Wizard, for example, doesn't sometimes give you +1 BAB and sometimes +0; it progresses at a rate of 0.5 per level. BAB can progress at 1, .75, or .5 per level, and saves can progress at .5 or .333... per level. Keep in mind that, in 3.5, any fraction less than a whole rounds down; thus a Cleric 1 has a BAB of .75, which is effectively 0, but the next .75 carries it up over 1.

But is this actually right? Do wizards technically (RAW) get .5 BAB every level or 0 every even level and 1 every odd level?

It seems that's the heart of the matter.

[Cog]

But is this actually right? Do wizards technically (RAW) get .5 BAB every level or 0 every even level and 1 every odd level?

It seems that's the heart of the matter.
The mathematical definition of progression (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progression): "A succession of quantities in which there is a constant relation between each member and the one succeeding it."

Sometimes adding +1 and sometimes not is not a progression. Always adding .5 and expressing the result as standard for 3.5's fractions is.

[begooler]

But is this actually right? Do wizards technically (RAW) get .5 BAB every level or 0 every even level and 1 every odd level?

It seems that's the heart of the matter.

In addition to the definition of a progression:

The sidebar in UA about fractional BAB says that the "progressions of base attack bonuses and base save bonuses in the Player's Handbook increase at a fractional rate, but those fractions are eliminated due to rounding."

The optional rule when you are playing with fractional BAB is choosing not to truncate the fraction before you add BAB from multiple classes. The fact that BAB and saves increase at a fractional rate isn't the optional part.

I've also read some descriptions of classes on the WotC site where it describes a given class's BAB as "three points for every four levels." (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060808a)
That's another way of expressing a fraction.

[danzibr]

The mathematical definition of progression (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progression): "A succession of quantities in which there is a constant relation between each member and the one succeeding it."

Sometimes adding +1 and sometimes not is not a progression. Always adding .5 and expressing the result as standard for 3.5's fractions is.

Nowhere that I saw in the PHB does it specify BAB or save increases as arithmetic progressions. And you can't say, "Oh, that's what they intended." Most words in mathematics have counterparts with non-mathematical meanings. When a person uses the word "open" they're usually not thinking of an element in a topology. Or when a person uses the word "boundary" they're usually not thinking of something's closure set theoretic minus its interior. Even then, you have topological boundary (the aforementioned), reduced boundary and measure theoretic boundary.

Also, fractional base bonuses is specifically listed as a house rule. This seems to be the conclusion:

Gestalt + fractional BAB house rule => (yields) Fighter1/Wizard19//Psion20 would not have BAB of +20 (in fact, +10).

Gestalt + no other house rule => Fighter1/Wizard19//Psion20 would have BAB of +20.

Thank you all for clearing that up for me.

[Cog]

Nowhere that I saw in the PHB does it specify BAB or save increases as arithmetic progressions.
I never said they did. We're discussing the gestalt rules from UA, which are different. That's the point.

And you can't say, "Oh, that's what they intended." Most words in mathematics have counterparts with non-mathematical meanings. When a person uses the word "open" they're usually not thinking of an element in a topology. Or when a person uses the word "boundary" they're usually not thinking of something's closure set theoretic minus its interior. Even then, you have topological boundary (the aforementioned), reduced boundary and measure theoretic boundary.

The progressions of base attack bonuses and base save bonuses in the Player’s Handbook increase at a fractional rate, but those fractions are eliminated due to rounding. For single-class characters, this rounding isn’t significant, but for multiclass characters, this rounding often results in reduced base attack and base save bonuses.
I don't need to say, "That's what they intended." They say it. Further, yes, those are cases where the mathematical term is very different from the basic English. That's not the case with the definition of progression. I looked at a number of different definitions, and quoted the mathematical one because it was the clearest, but it was consistent with the other definitions. Also? We're discussing increasing numbers in a game that depends on the interaction of static numbers and random number generators. I dunno about you, but I think mathematics just might be involved here in a way that "opening" a door to cross the "boundary" of a room doesn't.

Also, fractional base bonuses is specifically listed as a house rule.
Yep. It's in a sidebar on the same page as the gestalt rules. What's the purpose of a sidebar? To provide secondary information relevant to the main text. The main text, that through use of the word "progression" rather than "increase", refers to the fractional rules rather than the numeric-list rules.

This seems to be the conclusion:
True. The only distinction is that the gestalt rules are presented in combination with that other house rule. To neglect the second house rule is a house rule in itself.

[danzibr]

[...] the gestalt rules are presented in combination with that other house rule. To neglect the second house rule is a house rule in itself.

Hmm, I missed that. I mean, I see that they're on the same few pages, but not that using gestalt necessarily implies fractional business unless otherwise specified. Thanks again.

[Tokuhara]

If you want casting and full BAB, Go with the following:

Race: Grey Elf
Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 3/Incantrix 10/Archmage 4//Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10
Gear: Mithril Twilight Fullplate; Animated Shield; Greatsword enchanted to your fancy

Full BAB, Full Arcane Casting, Full Initiator Level

In short: You destroy. Period.

[Salanmander]

But is this actually right? Do wizards technically (RAW) get .5 BAB every level or 0 every even level and 1 every odd level?

It seems that's the heart of the matter.

RAW they get +0 every even level and +1 every odd level, unless you are using fractional BAB and saves (which is more of a variant than prestige classes, but less of one than generic classes, typically). This is why a rogue 1/wizard 1 has a BAB of +0, not +1.

However, using the fractional BAB and saves arguably makes the system more consistent when using multiclassing (otherwise multiclassed characters tend to have excellent saves and poor BAB). For gestalt this goes doubly so, and many players (myself included) will not even consider playing gestalt without using fractional BAB and saves.

[Grendus]

If you want casting and full BAB, Go with the following:

Race: Grey Elf
Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 3/Incantrix 10/Archmage 4//Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10
Gear: Mithril Twilight Fullplate; Animated Shield; Greatsword enchanted to your fancy

Full BAB, Full Arcane Casting, Full Initiator Level

In short: You destroy. Period.

Since this sounds more like a gish type build anyways, wouldn't transmutation be a better choice for specialty? You can still incantatrix cheese up some lethal conjuration blast spells, but transmutation synergizes better with the melee focus on the warblade side.

[ericgrau]

I think the simplest solution to the OP's idea is to take the highest total BAB / etc. from each side of the gestalt. So he'd be +10/+10 for an overall BAB of +10. Full casting / full BAB is fine, but not full casting / full casting / full BAB.

[Veyr]

Or just use the fractional rules always and everywhere since they actually make sense, as opposed to the usual way that does not make sense.

[Salanmander]

I think the simplest solution to the OP's idea is to take the highest total BAB / etc. from each side of the gestalt. So he'd be +10/+10 for an overall BAB of +10. Full casting / full BAB is fine, but not full casting / full casting / full BAB.

The problem with this is that...it only really works for simple builds. The concept of the sides being separate breaks down very quickly. For example, what prevents someone from taking some levels of a class on one side, and some levels on the other? (which leads to the same staggering BAB problem) I /think/ that one can be solved by saying all levels of a class must be on the same side, but there are other similar problems that come up, or exploits to be found. And once you start doing things like restricting requirements, it's all over.

[Jack Zander]

The problem with this is that...it only really works for simple builds. The concept of the sides being separate breaks down very quickly. For example, what prevents someone from taking some levels of a class on one side, and some levels on the other? (which leads to the same staggering BAB problem) I /think/ that one can be solved by saying all levels of a class must be on the same side, but there are other similar problems that come up, or exploits to be found. And once you start doing things like restricting requirements, it's all over.

I agree. Don't do this. Never do this. Ever. No, not even then.

[Siosilvar]

I think the simplest solution to the OP's idea is to take the highest total BAB / etc. from each side of the gestalt. So he'd be +10/+10 for an overall BAB of +10. Full casting / full BAB is fine, but not full casting / full casting / full BAB.

Fighter 2/Wizard 16/Fighter +2//Psion 2/Barbarian 16/Psion +2 wouldn't get its full +20 BAB under this system, though. You'd end up with 18.

Fractional BAB/saves and best fraction at each level is the way to go. If you don't, you end up with oddities like the above example, or something like an X1/SA Fighter 19//Rogue 20 getting +20d6 sneak attack and the X1/Wizard 19//Psion 20 getting +20 BAB.

[Jack Zander]

How do fractional saves work with the 1st level in a class? Can you only get the +2 at character level 1?

[Salanmander]

How do fractional saves work with the 1st level in a class? Can you only get the +2 at character level 1?

You get the +2 the first time you take any class that has that particular save as strong. So, for example a wizard 1 // fighter 1 would have base saves (after rounding) of +2, +0, +2. If that character then went wizard//rogue, making him a wizard 2 // fighter 1 / rogue 1, he would have base saves of +2, +2, +3

(fort: +2 1/2 from 1st level, +1/3 from second level, making +2 5/6,
ref: +1/3 from 1st level, +2 1/2 from second level, making +2 5/6,
will: +2 1/2 from 1st level, +1/2 from second level, making +3)


edit: if that character then took a level in monk, he would add +1/2 to each save for that level, not gaining the initial +2 bonus again.

[danzibr]

Or just use the fractional rules always and everywhere since they actually make sense, as opposed to the usual way that does not make sense.

Well said. Next time I DM I'm totally using fractional rules. In fact, I'll talk to my DM about it (about to start a campaign) even though I'm going Warblade 20.

[Jack Zander]

You get the +2 the first time you take any class that has that particular save as strong. So, for example a wizard 1 // fighter 1 would have base saves (after rounding) of +2, +0, +2. If that character then went wizard//rogue, making him a wizard 2 // fighter 1 / rogue 1, he would have base saves of +2, +2, +3

(fort: +2 1/2 from 1st level, +1/3 from second level, making +2 5/6,
ref: +1/3 from 1st level, +2 1/2 from second level, making +2 5/6,
will: +2 1/2 from 1st level, +1/2 from second level, making +3)


edit: if that character then took a level in monk, he would add +1/2 to each save for that level, not gaining the initial +2 bonus again.

Okay, that makes sense but it seems like it could get a little bit complicated keeping track of all of your fractions every level.

[Veyr]

Actually, only getting +2 once is a houserule not found in Unearthed Arcana. UA actually specifies that you still get the +2 every time you take the first level in any class that gets it as a good save, thus keeping your saves at least as high as they would be without the variant.

Changing that makes sense, but is not officially a part of the fractional system.

[Siosilvar]

Okay, that makes sense but it seems like it could get a little bit complicated keeping track of all of your fractions every level.

Not really. Keep track of good save levels and poor save levels (best-of, not each class: rogue//fighter is 1 good fortitude, 1 good reflex, and 1 poor will), then check the following table:

{table=head]Levels|Good Save|Poor Save
1|+2|+0
2|+3|+0
3|+3|+1
4|+4|+1
5|+4|+1
6|+5|+2
7|+5|+2
8|+6|+2
9|+6|+3
10|+7|+3
11|+7|+3
12|+8|+4
13|+8|+4
14|+9|+4
15|+9|+5
16|+10|+5
17|+10|+5
18|+11|+6
19|+11|+6
20|+12|+6[/table] So if you had 7 good save levels and 3 poor, your save is +5+1 = +6.

You can do similar things with BAB.

EDIT: And of course, you can still keep track of .33s, .5s, and .75s individually, but it's somewhat easier with the table.

[Jack Zander]

That table gets it wrong sometimes though. If you had 7 levels good and 5 levels poor, you'd still have only a +6 when it should really be a +7.

[Douglas]

Just using that table doesn't always give correct results, though. From the table, 1 level of good plus 2 of poor adds up to +2, but the actual total should be 2.5 + 2/3 = 3 and 1/6, rounded down to +3.

[Salanmander]

Actually, only getting +2 once is a houserule not found in Unearthed Arcana. UA actually specifies that you still get the +2 every time you take the first level in any class that gets it as a good save, thus keeping your saves at least as high as they would be without the variant.

Changing that makes sense, but is not officially a part of the fractional system.

I stand corrected. I've always played that way using fractional saves, and thought that was how it was presented.

[Douglas]

I stand corrected. I've always played that way using fractional saves, and thought that was how it was presented.
Nope, they even have an example in the sidebar that gets the +2 multiple times for the same save.

[2xMachina]

Huh, I just use an equation for fractional.

Good: +2Y +0.5X
Poor: +0.33X

where X is lvls in the class.
and Y is number of classes with that Good save.

[ericgrau]

Fighter 2/Wizard 16/Fighter +2//Psion 2/Barbarian 16/Psion +2 wouldn't get its full +20 BAB under this system, though. You'd end up with 18.


Then that player should be smarter and put his martial classes on one side and casting classes on the other. What if I had sorcerer 10 / barbarian 10 // wizard 10 / fighter 10? Then by fractional I still get 15 BAB. 1/2 BAB for the first 10 levels and full BAB for the last 10. In fact in your example you had to be very careful to always put martial opposite of casting, which is exactly as much work for the player. I mean it takes nearly zero work to flip the fighter 2's and psion 2's. That's a contrived example which most any player would figure out to not do in about half a second; or really he wouldn't even try it in the first place.

Fractional is fine but there's a reason it isn't the default. Those who want to use it and do a little math can. Others can use the usual way and get a proper answer without even thinking about it or learning a new rule.

[Cog]

Summing each side separately and choosing the best is itself a houserule, and one not presented in UA. You're supposed to take the best progression at each level, and summing each side before comparing them does not do that.

Fractional is fine but there's a reason it isn't the default.
It is the default, as I've pointed out extensively earlier in this thread. The language used in the gestalt rules supports that, and the fractional rules are presented as a sidebar to the gestalt rules instead of as a rule of their own. They're just a rule that has use outside of gestalt as well.

[TheCoelacanth]

Then that player should be smarter and put his martial classes on one side and casting classes on the other. What if I had sorcerer 10 / barbarian 10 // wizard 10 / fighter 10? Then by fractional I still get 15 BAB. 1/2 BAB for the first 10 levels and full BAB for the last 10. In fact in your example you had to be very careful to always put martial opposite of casting, which is exactly as much work for the player. I mean it takes nearly zero work to flip the fighter 2's and psion 2's. That's a contrived example which most any player would figure out to not do in about half a second; or really he wouldn't even try it in the first place.

Fractional is fine but there's a reason it isn't the default. Those who want to use it and do a little math can. Others can use the usual way and get a proper answer without even thinking about it or learning a new rule.

This still leaves the problem when one arrangement is favorable for BAB and a different is favorable for saves. I think the player should get to rearrange the sides to get the best score for each value. This still prevents level alternating shenanigans but doesn't change as many other builds.. For instance, a Ranger 10/Fighter 10//Wizard 10/Rogue 10 would use the Ranger/Fighter side for BAB, getting a +20, and count as a Ranger 10/Rogue 10//Wizard 10/Fighter 10 to determine the Reflex save. Under the system you propose, this build would get either BAB +20, Reflex +10 or BAB +17, Reflex +14 depending on the arrangement instead of the BAB +20, Reflex +14 it would get under normal gestalt.

[Ormur]

Actually, only getting +2 once is a houserule not found in Unearthed Arcana. UA actually specifies that you still get the +2 every time you take the first level in any class that gets it as a good save, thus keeping your saves at least as high as they would be without the variant.

Changing that makes sense, but is not officially a part of the fractional system.

In our groups we use that houserule and call it "sane" fractional bonuses as opposed to the "insane" original version where someone dipping classes with the same good saves could get ridiculous saving throws. Then compare the "totally insane" default rules where the same character might have saves through the roof but a BAB of +0.

I'm not sure that's even neccesary in this case since the gestalt rules specify the "progression" of each side. A wizard and a psion have the same BAB progression whether the levels are odd or even. A psion//wisard would simply gain the better of the same poor BAB progression. For the same reason I wouldn't allow a hypothetical class X/rogue 19//rogue 20 to gain +20d6 sneak attack, but even that's still more reasonable since different sneak attack progressions aren't defined (besides there are way better and more fun to play gestalts with a rogue than simply more rogue).