[3.5]need help with a lev 12 build.

[Ruinix]

i need help to build a most violent skill monkey, the resourses are:

lev 12.
NO LA
all splats, exept ToB and MoI
110k GP
28 point buy
2 flaws
max base class 2, so no dip.
finish a prc before take another.


i was thinkning in a factotum. or maybe a bard.

the rest of the party are:

a paladin.
an archer ranger
a warlok/claric
and a sorcer kobold.

a final though. plz no broken builds, no campaing breakers, nothing banneable XD

[Keld Denar]

Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard+2/Virtuoso2/SublimeChord2

progressing as Virtuoso+8 to 20, assuming you don't die.

You are a turbo caster, impossible to sneak up on, a great buffer, especially to the paladin and archer. Oh, and you'll have like, a +25 diplomacy and with Glibness running, about a +51 bluff. Bazinga!

Coordinate spells with the sorcerer so you don't overlap too much, except on a few REALLY amazing spells like Glitterdust.

Take Melodic Casting, Songs of the Heart, Mindsight, Lyric Spell, and, if you can, maybe something like Dragonfire Inspiration (although you probably won't need THAT much boost). Also consider Rapid Metamagic and Quicken Spell.

Never mind...Reading Comprehension: 2 - Keld Denar: 0

You could go Rogue4/Swashbuckler8. Its simple, 11/12 BAB (so you get your 3rd iterative), gets 6d6 Sneak Attack, decent skills, +Int to damage, and a few other goodies. Take TWFing, Craven, and possibly Darkstalker, and you are a sneaky SoaB who shanks fools in the gut.

[Sacrieur]

Wizard 12

Stats:

Str: 8
Dex: 10
Con: 8
Int: 18
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

---

Yes, I believe wizards to be the best skill monkeys. Because they can do everything with magic. Cook food? NO PROBLEM! *Casts Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion*

Need to get up there with a rope? *Levitate*

[Forged Fury]

You could go Rogue4/Swashbuckler8. Its simple, 11/12 BAB (so you get your 3rd iterative), gets 6d6 Sneak Attack, decent skills, +Int to damage, and a few other goodies. Take TWFing, Craven, and possibly Darkstalker, and you are a sneaky SoaB who shanks fools in the gut.Also take Daring Outlaw, since it's required to make it awesome. I didn't see if listed in the suggested feats.

[Keld Denar]

Sorry, I figured Daring Outlaw would be assumed...my bad.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Illumian, Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 7+. After UM 10 get one more Wizard level for either a metamagic feat or the domain power ACF in CC, then probably get Archmage or Iot7FV. Take Able Learner, since Illumians are Humanoid (Human) they qualify, to keep up your ranks in the skill monkey stuff you need. With Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler at 3rd and the Krau sigil you can apply 10/10 UM spellcasting to Wizard. Get Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon and you can spend Beguiler spell slots to spontaneously cast Wizard spells you know, as well as get early access to the next higher level of the Beguiler spell list.

I'd specialize in Conjuration with Enchantment and Evocation prohibited, since between Shadow Evocation and Beguiler spells you can cover both of those anyway. Get the Abrupt Jaunt ACF in PH2, and maybe also use Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. You're the Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) in combat, and between skill ranks and spontaneous spells you should be able to single-handedly solve any noncombat challenge. Sculpt Spell and Split Ray are pretty good, and be sure to get a Circlet of Rapid Casting from MIC. The Raiment of the Four set can give you even more spontaneous spell versatility.

[Ruinix]

thx for the tips.
ok. i like the batman skill monkey idea, lets try to push a bit foward in that way.

explain me plz what is tha 10/10 UM
and what spells shoud take for be an effective batman? im not used to casters so plz be gentle

[Cog]

explain me plz what is tha 10/10 UM
and what spells shoud take for be an effective batman? im not used to casters so plz be gentle
Ultimate Magus is a 10-level prestige class that grants 10 levels of spellcasting progression.

Na na na na na na na na... Batman! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002)

[Ruinix]

thx cog. for the UM :P and for the guide, but for the guide i have to tell im a complete noob with mages and alike, so im a bit lost with all that information.

i like the biffoniacus idea.

illumian

lev 1 beguiler 1. able lerner.
lev 2 wizard 1
lev 3 wizard 2
lev 4 wizard 3
lev 5 wizard 4
lev 6 ultimate magus 1
lev 7 ultimate magus 2
lev 8 ultimate magus 3
lev 9 ultimate magus 4
lev 10 ultimate magus 5
lev 11 ultimate magus 6
lev 12 ultimate magus 7

how alocate the rest of the feats, and how distribute the stats.
don't forget the 2 flaws avaible :D

[Keld Denar]

Well, your 3rd level feat HAS to be Practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler) in order to make sure that you get 10/10 progression on your Wizard side. So...thats that.

For your 6th level feat, I'd say Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) is a good buy. That lets you cast Wizard spells you known spontaneously from your Beguiler slots, as well as giving you more boost out of your lowest level Beguiler slots. Totally worthwhile.

For 9th, its a good time to start getting into MM. Unfortunately, the ones you really want to take mostly have a prereq of 1 other MM feat (Sculpt, Split Ray, Chain) so I'd get Quicken here. You should also be getting a bonus UM feat somewhere in here, so use that to get either Sculpt Spell or Split Ray, both very good MM feats that are easy to power with your UM abilities.

For later feats, it depends a bit. I really like Minor Shapeshift (CMage) on a spellcaster. It really increases survivability, IMO. Another fun feat for you is Arcane Mastery (CArc). With your UM caster level boost, the ability to take 10 on CL checks is actually taking 11 or 12. Combine with one or 2 other CL boosts and you should be able to automatically ignore all but the highest SR. Mobile Spellcaster (CArc) can also be fun, if you can regularly make the concentration checks.

[dspeyer]

Another fun way to do skillmonkey and battlefield control is factotum 3 / psion 9. Take able learner to keep the skill list and practiced manifester so you can augment your powers like a 12th level psion. Giving up manifester levels isn't as painful as giving up caster levels because a lot of things that would be higher level spells are augmentations of lower-level powers. Make sure to pick up the swift concentration skill trick.

[faceroll]

Straight Beguiler would also be plenty fun, more straightforward, and have more skills. Maybe dip one level of Mindbender (complete arcane) for telepathy, so you can talk with your party while sneaking and not give your location away.

Use sanctum spell, versatile spell caster, and heighten spell (all feats) to cast spells two levels higher than the ones the table says you can currently cast. So at level 12, you could use two level 6 slots to cast a level 8 spell, but it would be treated as level 7 for the purpose of globes of invulnerability, saves, etc.

Not much direct damage, but you still have a lot of offensive power with save-or-lose, save-or-die, and a whole mess of subterfuge.

[Ruinix]

ahhhh so many options !!! :smalleek:

i been told they had problems with the lack of a proper scout/detector of traps and/or ambushes, this can be solved by a batman wizard ?

what a about 1 rogue/ 8 wizard / 1 rogue / UM 2 ?? is doable ?

[faceroll]

With a 6 skills points/level, a primary stat of int, and spot, listen, search, disable device on their skill lists, beguilers can easily fill in the rogue roll.

[Keld Denar]

what a about 1 rogue/ 8 wizard / 1 rogue / UM 2 ?? is doable ?

Do you mean Unseen Seer? UM is a class that theurges together 2 arcane casting classes...Unseen Seer is kinda like Arcane Trickster, but better.

Rogue1/Wizard5/USS10/AT4 is pretty solid, as is the same thing with Spellthief instead of Rogue, then taking the Master Spellthief feat.

[Ruinix]

nice indeed keld. ok ok ok i like it.

so that Rogue1/Wizard5/USS10/AT4.. how should be the feat progresion ? and beside the skill monkey rol wich is covered; in combat how it work ? with wizard will be easy have vine strike, golem strike, and death strike for the SA dices, anything else ?

[Keld Denar]

You'll want Practiced Spellcaster, again, probably at 3rd level. I'd look at taking Extend Spell and Persist Spell, as Persistant Cloud of Knives and Persistant Hunter's Eye are both 8th level spells worth casting. Quicken Spell is a gimme for any wizard build. I'd drop a feat on Darkstalker (Lords of Madness) so when you are hiding, you don't ping out on anyone's Blindsense or Tremorsense. I'd stay away from Split Ray though, as a Split Ray attack spell falls under the volley rules and you'd only get SA damage on your attack once.

[Ruinix]

HOLD RIGHT THERE XD hahaha

sry. i got to say i stay with the batman wizard idea.

beguille / wizard / ultimate magus.

how allocate the stats via point buy, i had 28.
with feat progresion ? don't forget 2 flaws given :D, there was something about the ring a sustent and some flaw ?
spells list at lev 12.
and items at lev 12, rods and such a thing.

[Cog]

Persistant Cloud of Knives
...14,400 knives floating around your head. Does that provide concealment yet?

[Keld Denar]

See, I always figured it was a couple dozen knives, and as you chuck them, more just kinda pop into being and continue orbit. That way you always have the cool graphic effect going on, regardless of how many rounds are remaining. When the duration ends, any unspent knives simply disappear into the Aether from which they came.

As for Runix's character...

Assuming you got Beguiler1/Wizard4/UM7 to start off with:

F Quicken Spell
F Sculpt Spell
1 Able Learner
3 Practiced Spellcaster for Beguiler
6 Versatile Spellcaster (RotD)
9 Residual Magic (CMage)
10B Split Ray (CArc)
12 Minor Shapeshift (CMage)

For gear, your standards +Int, +Con, Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC), Mithril Buckler with Wand Chamber, maybe a bit of +Dex, Anklets of Translocation, Cloak of Resistance, perhaps a pair of Spellguard Rings if you have a melee friend who likes to run into your crowd control, a Lesser MM Rod of Extend, etc.

Look here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) and fill in with stuff your spells don't cover.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

HOLD RIGHT THERE XD hahaha

sry. i got to say i stay with the batman wizard idea.

beguille / wizard / ultimate magus.

how allocate the stats via point buy, i had 28.
with feat progresion ? don't forget 2 flaws given :D, there was something about the ring a sustent and some flaw ?
spells list at lev 12.
and items at lev 12, rods and such a thing.

Illumian, Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Wizard 1/ Fatespinner 4
Conjuration specialist, Evocation and Necromancy as prohibited schools. Use the Immediate Magic ACF in PH2, listed under the Wizard class in Chapter 2, to get Abrupt Jaunt, which can be used to completely avoid attacks. Use the Domain Power ACF in Complete Champion at Wizard 5 for the Pride domain's granted power.

Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 8, all of your level ups should go to Int so it should be 21 currently.

Illumian Sigils: Krau and Naen, you need Krau for the caster level boost and Naen gives +2 to Int-based checks such as Knowledge, Spellcraft, Search, Disable Device, Decipher Script, etc. The Naenkrau runeword is useful if you need to make a saving throw that you don't already have a decent bonus in, such as Fort.

Feats: Able Learner (1), Versatile Spellcaster (flaw), Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler (flaw), Improved Initiative (Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) 1), Fell Drain (Libris Mortis) (3), Obtain Familiar (Complete Arcane) (6), Improved Familiar (DMG) (9), Split Ray (Complete Arcane) (UM 5), Quicken Spell (12), Extend Spell (UM 9), Persistent Spell (Complete Arcane) (15), and any feat you want at 18.

Your familiar should be either an Imp or a Quasit if you're LN, CN, LE, NE, or CE. I'd prefer an Imp due to the usefulness of its Suggestion spell-like ability and because it would be more predictable. Get a Pseudodragon if you're good aligned or true neutral. Put max ranks in Use Magic Device and your familiar can use your ranks with its own Cha bonus to use wands, plus it can throw tanglefoot bags.

Spells:
1st: Power Word: Pain, Grease, Benign Transposition, Nerveskitter, Wall of Smoke, Shield, possibly Mage Armor.
2nd: Web, Alter Self, Ray of Stupidity, Rope Trick, Glitterdust is on your Beguiler list, possibly Luminous Armor if you're super-good-aligned.
3rd: Haste, Shrink Item, Ray of Dizziness, Stinking Cloud, Heart of Water, Bands of Steel, possibly Greater Mage Armor.
4th: Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Greater Mirror Image, Dimension Door, possibly Greater Resistance cast every day, possibly Greater Luminous Armor if you're super-good-aligned.
5th: Shadow Evocation, Persistent Image, Overland Flight, Transmute Rock to Mud, Teleport, Greater Blink, Prying Eyes, Shadow Form if you have high Escape Artist ranks.
6th: Freezing Fog, Greater Dispel Magic, Disintegrate, True Seeing, Ruby Ray of Reversal, possibly Greater Resistance cast every day.
7th: Reverse Gravity, Greater Teleport, Limited Wish, Ethereal Jaunt, Banishment.
8th: Superior Invisibility, Greater Shadow Evocation, Mind Blank, Irresistible Dance, Maze, Moment of Prescience.
Otherwise, refer to the batman guide and focus on spells that severely debuff or outright disable multiple opponents, or which do so to one opponent without allowing a saving throw.

Items (88,000 gp):
Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) 15,000 gp
+6 Int on the above circlet (MIC) 36,000 gp
Necklace of Adaptation (DMG) 9,000 gp
+4 Con on the above necklace (MIC) 16,000 gp
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend (DMG) 3,000 gp
Ring of Sustenance (DMG) 2,500 gp
+1 Deflection bonus to AC on the above ring (MIC) 2,000 gp
3,500 gp remaining for wands and other miscellaneous gear.

[Keld Denar]

BF's build is similar to mine, and really good. He has Fell Draining instead of Sculpt, which is a bit more offensive and less crowd controlly, depending on your goals. He has Improved Familiar, while my build has Residual Magic and Minor Shapeshift. Familair gives more flexability, especially with UMD on your class list for UM (and your familiar shares your skills). Residual Magic gives you more bang for your metamagic buck, which stacks really with with UM's ability to apply MM for free, and Minor Shapeshift is REALLY strong for survivability.

I'd suggest dropping Enchantment instead of Necromancy though, especially with Split Ray. There are a TON of Necro-rays, and having Split Ray is a bit lack-luster without them.

His gear list is nearly identical to what I'd suggest as well, although I'd suggest adding a +1 Mithril Buckler (which you can later put enchants on) to his list with that 3500g remaining.

His spell list is super solid. I'd suggest putting either Dragonskin or Spiderskin on there as well, extended via MM Rod. The NA is kinda nice to have, and the energy resistance from Dragonskin or the hide bonus from Spiderskin is kinda nice.

[Ruinix]

a little change here guys.

the char start at lev 13 and with WBL 13 so it be 110k gp

as for the build i will take 1 beguiler / 5 wizard / 7 ultimate magus

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

a little change here guys.

the char start at lev 13 and with WBL 13 so it be 110k gp

as for the build i will take 1 beguiler / 5 wizard / 7 ultimate magus

Only use that level spread if you're taking the fifth Wizard level after UM 7, otherwise your UM 7 spellcasting will have to go toward Beguiler instead of Wizard. When it only advances a single spellcasting class, it has to go toward whichever has the lower caster level.

The reason this build is so good is because at Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 10 you'll have 14th level Wizard spellcasting and 8th level Beguiler spellcasting. At Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 10/ Wizard +1 you have 15th level Wizard and 8th level Beguiler spellcasting. If you went Beguiler 1/ Wizard 5/ UM 10 you would end up with 14th level Wizard and 9th level Beguiler spellcasting. That one extra level of Beguiler casting doesn't give you access to any higher level spells, it just slows down your Wizard casting progression. Starting out Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 8 will give you 12th level Wizard and 6th level Beguiler spellcasting, if you start out Beguiler 1/ Wizard 5/ UM 7 you'll have 11th level Wizard and 6th level Beguiler spellcasting, thus you'll just lose a level of Wizard casting if you start out with a level spread like that.

It's not worth taking that 5th Wizard level until after you've taken all ten UM levels. If you try to change up the levels in the build, you'll end up delaying or even crippling your Wizard casting, or if you apply all ten UM levels to Wizard anyway you'll be cheating. A level X character with level X-1 Wizard casting is far better than a level X character with X-2 Wizard casting.

[Ruinix]

im back with this build, im trying to give a final touch but there is a thing i don't understand, the caster level pointed by Biffoniacus_Furiou.

The reason this build is so good is because at Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 10 you'll have 14th level Wizard spellcasting and 8th level Beguiler spellcasting

how is that?. Ultimate Magus give 10/10 of lower arcane caster and 7/10 of higher arcane caster.

so in that build at lev 15 it end with 11 levels of wizard and 11 levels of beguiler. im wrong with this ?

the other thing i fail to understand is the UM feature Arcane Spell Power. It give a caster level even if u don't get a caster level in that UM level ?

if it do, why in the nine hells isn't noted in the progresion chart in the page 78 of c.mage ?!?!?

___

appart of those few doubts.
i decided to take out the inmediate magic variant cause i don't want to give up schools of magic for that, that halve my spells array and it can't be an effective batman wizard without all the options enabled.

so, i have a free feat there cause i don't lose the familiar so no need to recover via feat.

___

and for the spells selection.
the beguiler list is automatic so plz advise me spells that are not on the beguiler list.

[Keld Denar]

You need to understand the difference between "caster level" and "spellcaster level". Spellcaster level is how you determine your spells/day and spells known if you are sponanteous. Caster level is the attribute used to determine the potency of your spells. A spell that deals 1d6 damage per caster level is referencing this number. A spell that lasts 1 round per level is referencing this. The range of a spell (such as Short 25' + 5'/2CLs) references this. Each spellcaster level generally gives you a caster level, but OTHER things can give you a caster level boost as well. UM does, Archmage does, an Orange Prism Ioun Stone does, certain domains like Good and Healing give +1 CL boosts to certain spells. That means that when you cast spells, they are more potent, not that you get any more spells per day.

UM advancement specifically mentions "caster level" when deciding which level is higher. The whole point of the trick above is that you take Practiced Spellcaster with your spontaneous casting class so that its caster level is higher, even though its spellcaster level is lower. That way, you can progress your wizard casting at 10/10 levels. Its kinda a trick, but it works.

And trust me, if you specialize in Conjourer for Abrupt Jaunt, you'll have PLENTY of batman left in you. I'm playing a level 15 FOCUSED specialist Conjourer who gave up 3 whole schools of magic and he's batman all day long. Especially with the extra versatility you'll get from Beguiler casting, you'll be fine. Trust me.

[Ruinix]

so, if i advance as follow:

character lev 1: beguiler lev. 1. practicioned spell caster: beguiller
character lev 2: wizard lev 1
character lev 3: wizard lev 2
character lev 4: wizard lev 3
character lev 5: wizard lev 4

i get:

beguiler caster level 5
beguiler spellcaster level 1

wizard caster level 4
wizard spellcaster level 4

those at character level 5 ?
so i toke the first level of UM at lev 6:

character lev 6: Ultimate Magus lev 1. +1 level of lower-level arcane casting class.

is that about the lower Spellcaster level or is about Caster Level ?
and what it advance?
just Caster Level? or both, Caster Level AND Spellcaster level ?

beside that.
i still don't get how it aplie the feature Arcane Spell Power wich say:

Arcane Spell Power (Ex): At 1st level, your caster level for all arcane spells increases by 1. It increases again at 4th level, 7th level, and 10 level (to maximum of +4)

sh!t im really dumb or what the heck is all this about?
what it lose at lev 1, 4 and 7 ? Spellcaster level?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You're forgetting about the Illumian racial Krau sigil. It adds another +2 to all your caster levels, but no higher than your HD, similar to Practiced Spellcaster.

A +1 level spellcasting increase increases both spellcasting ability and caster level.

Ultimate Magus specifies that at levels 1, 4, and 7, it increases your spellcasting ability in whichever class has the lower caster level. That's why you get to apply those levels to Wizard, even though Beguiler has the lower spellcasting ability.

Arcane Spell Power is a bonus to your caster level. You can apply your own bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order. Apply Practiced Spellcaster and Krau first, to increase your caster levels up to your HD, and add Arcane Spell Power afterward so your caster level is greater than your HD by that much.

[faceroll]

Caster level. You took Practiced Spellcaster for Beguiler so you always advance wizard casting. That way, you only lose 1 level of wizard casting.

[Keld Denar]

i get:

beguiler caster level 5
beguiler spellcaster level 1

wizard caster level 4
wizard spellcaster level 4

those at character level 5 ?
so i toke the first level of UM at lev 6:

This part is correct. You have a Wizard spellcaster level of 4 and Beguiler spellcaster level of 1. You have a Wizard caster level of 4 and a Beguiler caster level of 5.

character lev 6: Ultimate Magus lev 1. +1 level of lower-level arcane casting class.

is that about the lower Spellcaster level or is about Caster Level ?
and what it advance?
just Caster Level? or both, Caster Level AND Spellcaster level ?
The text says caster level. Thus, since your Beguiler CL is 5 and your Wizard CL is only 4, that level adds to your Wizard progression so your Wizard spellcaster level (and CL) will be 5 and your Beguiler spellcaster level will still be 1 (at CL5). You will have the spells/day of a 5th level Wizard and the spells/day of a 1st level Beguiler. When you take your next split level at 4, the two CLs will still be equal, and when they are equal, you get to choose, so you put it again on the Wizard side. The reason you need the Illumian race is that the Krau sigil gives a 1/2 strength Practiced Spellcaster effect which will keep your CLs equal when you get to the 10th level of UM so that you can pile all 3 of your non-double levels on your wizard size.


i still don't get how it aplie the feature Arcane Spell Power wich say:

Arcane Spell Power (Ex): At 1st level, your caster level for all arcane spells increases by 1. It increases again at 4th level, 7th level, and 10 level (to maximum of +4)

sh!t im really dumb or what the heck is all this about?
what it lose at lev 1, 4 and 7 ? Spellcaster level?

Those are just CL increases. They do not give more spells/day, they simply make your spells more intense and potent.

I'll see if I can make a table real quick that breaks all this down.

With Human

{table]Level|Class|Wizard SCL|Wizard CL|Beguiler SCL|Beguiler CL
1|Beg1|0|0|1|1
2|Wiz1|1|1|1|2
3|Wiz2|2|2|1|3
4|Wiz3|3|3|1|4
5|Wiz4|4|4|1|5
6|UM1|5|6|1|6
7|UM2|6|7|2|7
8|UM3|7|8|3|8
9|UM4|8|10|3|9
10|UM5|9|11|4|10
11|UM6|10|12|5|11
12|UM7|10|13|6|13
13|UM8|11|14|7|14
14|UM9|12|15|8|15
15|UM10|13|17|9|17[/table]


With Krau sigil Illumian

{table]Level|Class|Wizard SCL|Wizard CL|Beguiler SCL|Beguiler CL
1|Beg1|0|0|1|1
2|Wiz1|1|2|1|2
3|Wiz2|2|3|1|3
4|Wiz3|3|4|1|4
5|Wiz4|4|5|1|5
6|UM1|5|7|1|7
7|UM2|6|8|2|8
8|UM3|7|9|3|9
9|UM4|8|11|3|11
10|UM5|9|12|4|12
11|UM6|10|13|5|13
12|UM7|11|15|5|14
13|UM8|12|16|6|15
14|UM9|13|17|7|16
15|UM10|14|19|8|18[/table]

As you can see, the Illumian build has a stronger CL the whole way up, and the Illumian build ends with 14/8 spellcaster level split, while the Human build ends with a 13/9 spellcaster level split. Since the 14th level of Wizard casting gives you more than the 9th level of Beguiler casting, its the stronger option.

Fix't the tables.

[Ruinix]

ok. now i start to get it.

so, for the spells and the variant/feat issue.

if i take the variant inmediate magic, i have to be a conjunrer wizard. wich schools i should drop? that drop prohibe the spells in those schools of the beguiler list too ?!

__

so let's say i don't take the variant, what feat i should grab instead of the familiar.

and in that case, the array of spells is bigger, so what spells should i get in the wizard spellbook ? remember the char is lev 13 and with WBL lev 13, the spells should be up to spellcaster 14 so it will up to spells level 7.

[Keld Denar]

You can't go wrong with Conjourer specialty dropping Enchantment and Evocation. Do that. Its so much better than anything you'd get from a feat.

Also, take either my or BF's suggestions for spells and gear. That will set you pretty straight.

[Ruinix]

for the spell selection BF put a lot of spells in the evocation school and a few others in the enchantment school as too in the beguiler list wich i should not pick cause i get the all list of beguiler spells like a cleric or a druid.

also, it still the question what happend with the enchantment and evocation spells in the beguiler list? if i put those 2 schools as prohibed for wizard conjurer i lose the beguiler enchantment and evocation spells too ?

[Ruinix]

about the spellcaster level and caster level issue. my DM ask me a reference in the books where say something about this.

the only i found till now is the reference of the complete mage in the descripcion of the feat Practicioned Spellcaster, but is very vague.
anyone have a more consistent reference?

[Keld Denar]

If you drop Enchantment on your Wizard side, it does NOT impact ANYTHING on your Beguiler side. Your Beguiler spell list is independant of the spells you know or ban as a Wizard. I think there was an FAQ that addressed this, but in reality its not needed. Features of your Wizard casting only affect your Wizard casting. Period.

The feat is Practiced Spellcaster. Its published in both Complete Arcane and Complete Divine (and I think the PGtF). All it does is when you take it, you pick a spellcasting class you have, and that spellcasting class gets an increased caster level (remember, CL is different from spellcaster level) by 4, but that increase can't increase your CL past your HD. Its really simple.

Try an example...

Wizard1/Fighter4 without Practiced Spellcaster casts a Magic Missile. The CL is 1 (since he only has one spellcaster level and no other sources of +CL). That means he only gets 1 missile.

Wizard1/Figher4 with Practiced Spellcaster, however, casts Magic Missile at CL 5 (1 + 4 from Practiced Spellcaster). He gets 3 missiles just like a Wizard5 would get. He can't cast Fireball like a Wizard5 though, since his spells/day are the same as a 1st level Wizard.

Wizard1/Fighter2 with Practiced Spellcaster casts a Magic Missile at CL 3 (1 + 2 from Practiced Spellcaster). Normally Practiced Spellcaster gives +4 CLs, but since the character only has 3 HD, Practiced Spellcaster can't give a CL of higher than 3. Thus, his Magic Missile spell produces 2 missiles.

Really, I can't explain it any more simply than that. I hope this helps.

[Ruinix]

If you drop Enchantment on your Wizard side, it does NOT impact ANYTHING on your Beguiler side. Your Beguiler spell list is independant of the spells you know or ban as a Wizard. I think there was an FAQ that addressed this, but in reality its not needed. Features of your Wizard casting only affect your Wizard casting. Period.

thx. if there is any reference about this it will be great, if not, i have to let to the DM interpretation, would rather not.


The feat is Practiced Spellcaster. Its published in both Complete Arcane and Complete Divine (and I think the PGtF). All it does is when you take it, you pick a spellcasting class you have, and that spellcasting class gets an increased caster level (remember, CL is different from spellcaster level) by 4, but that increase can't increase your CL past your HD. Its really simple.


the thing is where is the reference of the diference between CL and Spellcaster level ?!
that is what he asking.



Try an example...

Wizard1/Fighter4 without Practiced Spellcaster casts a Magic Missile. The CL is 1 (since he only has one spellcaster level and no other sources of +CL). That means he only gets 1 missile.

Wizard1/Figher4 with Practiced Spellcaster, however, casts Magic Missile at CL 5 (1 + 4 from Practiced Spellcaster). He gets 3 missiles just like a Wizard5 would get. He can't cast Fireball like a Wizard5 though, since his spells/day are the same as a 1st level Wizard.

Wizard1/Fighter2 with Practiced Spellcaster casts a Magic Missile at CL 3 (1 + 2 from Practiced Spellcaster). Normally Practiced Spellcaster gives +4 CLs, but since the character only has 3 HD, Practiced Spellcaster can't give a CL of higher than 3. Thus, his Magic Missile spell produces 2 missiles.

Really, I can't explain it any more simply than that. I hope this helps.

i preferer not to fall in the example way, cause that leave room for interpretation.

[Keld Denar]

FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)

Download it and search through it for things about wizards.

As far as the difference between CL and Spellcaster level...there really isn't anything. A Spellcaster level always gives you a CL, but there are other things that can boost your CL. If you have an Orange Prism Ioun Stone, for example, it gives you a +1 CL boost. This boost does not give you actual levels in Wizard, it simply makes the Wizard spells you can cast a little more potent. The Archmage High Arcana for Spellpower would give you two levels every time you take it (one for the spellcaster level boost Archmage normally gives, one for the High Arcana power). This is simply not the case. Take a look at the Wildmage PrC. It's CL can fluctuate every time you cast a spell. This doesn't impact your spells though.

Its just not something really presented clearly, you have to extract forcefully out of the rules. Sorry, its not more clear than that.

Also, what do you mean by:


i preferer not to fall in the example way, cause that leave room for interpretation.
I understand that English is probably not your first language (thats OK, lots of people here don't either), but could you try to be a little clearer on what you mean here? It'll help us help you.

Also, while we've been pretty helpful in making suggestions here, I highly suggest you read a fair bit into the suggestions we've made. If you don't understand them, you won't be able to apply them properly. We can only help you so far, you have to put in a bit of work yourself. Some of your questions will become a lot clearer once you understand the information presented.

[Ruinix]

for the language, sry for my bad english. im argentinian so my born language is spanish.

and what i was trying to say is i don't want to explain with an example, because it give room for interpretation.

___

the link u give me, what of all those archives should i download?

[Keld Denar]

Just get the most recent FAQ. It should have the answer you seek in it.

Really, the main thing you need to understand is the difference between spellcaster level and caster level. The skinny of it is that spellcaster level references the table in the book. Wizard5 has a spellcaster level of 5, so you look at the table for Wizards, look for how many spells a 5th level Wizard would have, and thats done. CL is your spellcaster level plus any other effects that boost or modify your CL independantly. Thats about as simple as you can make it...

[Ruinix]

Keld Denar. i know, i undestand the diference. My DM is the one who don't see the diference and he ask me a reference write in any book 3.5 edited by WotC.

i gave him the C.Arc and Div. p. 82 where is in both books the Practicioned Spellcaster. As well the reference about multiclass in the Player Handbook p.59

i need to find something writed

[Keld Denar]

Try the Magic Overview (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/magicOverview.htm)


Caster Level
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

Caster Level Checks
To make a caster level check, roll 1d20 and add your caster level (in the relevant class). If the result equals or exceeds the DC (or the spell resistance, in the case of caster level checks made for spell resistance), the check succeeds.

This text is also in your PHB, at the start of the chapter that describes magic. The bolded part is the important text. CL is generally equal to your levels in a spellcasting class, except when something else modifies it.

[Metahuman1]

Swift Hunter Scout/ranger?

Between Truedeath and Demolition weapons Crystals and careful selection of favored enemy you could get set up too nail anything that needs to be nailed, Improved Skirmish and spring attack with TwF would let you move in, get some hits, do your damage, and move out.

A one lvl Lion totem Barbarian Dip get's you some extra HP, Rage for a bit more Extra HP in combat and more Str for damage, and Pounce so you can full attack on that spring attack.

[Ruinix]

check this character progresion, plz tell if anything is out of place.

http://sheet.zoho.com/public/ruinix/avance-um-2-ing-?mode=html

so if that's correct then at lev 13 the char would have:

Wizard Spellcaster Level 12 with Caster Level 15.
Beguiler Spellcaster Level 6 with Caster Level 14.

is that ok?