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Telasi
2011-04-07, 06:19 PM
I am concerned about a situation in my campaign. My players, a group of my personal friends, have formulated a plan that could potentially end the campaign far ahead of schedule. When I say "end the campaign," I mean that it could easily result in one or more of the following: the deaths of the entire party but one, the death of a BBEG, the complete destruction of a pocket plane, and significant damage to a region of the Prime Material.

Allow me to provide specific context. Every weekend, I GM a Pathfinder/3.5 game for a group of my friends. In the normal course of this game, the players have come into contact with a powerful mage, who they have reason to suspect is a major threat to the world. This mage, Kiravahn, is their current employer. The party was hired to recover a cache of magic items on the Elemental Plane of Earth, with a particular staff being Kiravahn's main concern. During the course of that adventure, they discovered that the staff in question is, in fact, a world-specific greater artifact version of a Staff of the Magi called Caelinor's Staff. They are unaware of the properties of Caelinor's Staff beyond those of a normal Staff of the Magi. They also discovered that the cache holding the staff is guarded by a young crystal dragon and made peaceful contact with him.

Since that session, I have been approached by several of the players asking questions about various aspects of a plan they devised, apparently based on their best-case scenario for using the retributive strike function of Caelinor's Staff to assassinate Kiravahn. Though I was not given the details of the plan, I answered the questions they could reasonably have known the answers to in-character and warned them of several potential hazards involved in their plan.

I believe that my players intend to carry out their plan in spite of my warnings. If they do, there is a strong possibility that all their characters except one (who is separated from the rest) will die for one of several reasons. For my part, I currently intend to play out the plan and its results honestly, regardless of the outcome. I predict that the result will be a TPK, either in the destruction of the artifact or from Kiravahn's retribution if he survives (which is possible, but not guaranteed). The current situation in the world means that such an event would effectively end the campaign in a PC defeat, albeit an impressive one.

Given the information above, I am concerned that I may be being too harsh. The plan counts on the best-case guess of Kiravahn's stats being accurate to succeed, in conjunction with other questionable assumptions based on the information they have been presented. Unfortunately, all of the information I have heard from them indicates that their assumptions vary from slightly to grossly inaccurate, which is why I chose to explicitly warn them of the potential repercussions. That said, I would like to hear some opinions and analysis to advise my decisions.

Finally, to anyone among my players who reads this post, shame on you.

dsmiles
2011-04-07, 06:28 PM
Let 'em go. That's the best part of the game, when players come up with some off the wall **** to save the day. I'd love it if my players pulled that out of their collective behind.

The Dark Fiddler
2011-04-07, 06:29 PM
I'd say drop one last hint that they may not be correct about his stats, then continue as you are. Dealing with the repercussions of this might be a nice starting hook for your next campaign!


Finally, to anyone among my players who reads this post, shame on you.

This is something you usually put at the beginning of a post. Before they've already read it :smalltongue:

Gamer Girl
2011-04-07, 10:08 PM
I don't see how this is game ending.


So the players want to trick the great mage into dropping his guard and getting killed? Ok...normal enough. Not a big deal.

Random thoughts:

1.If Kiravahn has an intelligence over 5 or so, he will be ready. This is what smart people do. For example, a smart person would never walk into a room of potential armed enemies, even if said enemies worked for them. For example, the average cop, FBI agent or solder can not just walk up to the president armed(or even more so with say a nuclear bomb they found). That just does not happen.

2.There is no reason Kir can't send a servant to get the staff. Just in case. He can even take the step of ploymorphing or using and illusion on a servant so they look like Kir. Not to mention projected image or even magic jar.

3.Kir could always have an active anti-magic field up...looks kind of obvious, right?

4.Don't forget the classic bad guy move: innocents. Kir shows up with a bunch of 'human shields'. Even worse if it's someone the characters know/care about.

5.Even if Kir puts on his dumb hat for the day and gets blown up....well, death is not so permanent for your average typical powerful wizard. Clone, resurrection, wish......


More Thoughts:

1.So this special staff can blow up a planet and/or a plane. That's a bit powerful. Maybe the bast won't be 'that' destructive. Maybe it's mostly hype. A staff that destroys a city or even a country might be powerful enough.

2.If the retributive strike is so special and powerful...maybe it takes more then 'just' breaking the staff to trigger it. Would you walk around with a billion mega ton nuke that had a 'Big Red Button' that said 'push me to die'?

3.Maybe the special retributive strike does not do pure damage. It's special right? Maybe it drains all magic. Maybe to teleports everything to the Abyss..or the Demiplane of Imprisonment.

Amnestic
2011-04-07, 10:22 PM
If they want to break the staff, do it. They will go out in a blaze of glory quite literally like no other.

Sure it'll mean your campaign is somewhat screwed (which sucks for you depending on how much work you've already done), but it also means that they will always remember the ending that they chose.

Marnath
2011-04-07, 10:28 PM
If it's a homebrewed version of the artifact, why even allow it to make a retributive strike?

Tyndmyr
2011-04-07, 10:49 PM
I'd say drop one last hint that they may not be correct about his stats, then continue as you are. Dealing with the repercussions of this might be a nice starting hook for your next campaign!


Pretty much.

You've given them the obligatory warning when they're about to do something incredibly risky. But, yknow, players often don't listen. Play it straight and see what happens. At a minimum, they'll go out with a bang, and it'll be an ending to remember, win or lose.

Knaight
2011-04-07, 11:20 PM
I'm all for this. It ends the campaign in what is likely a Pyrrhic victory, and is at a shallower level completely awesome. This sort of stuff is memorable, and there is no reason to restrict it just because it goes against the plan.

Kylarra
2011-04-08, 12:57 AM
I find the death of everything in a retributive strike to be awesome.

Sydonai
2011-04-08, 01:31 AM
Warn them outright that their plan has a high-chance of TPK. If they decide to go through with the plan anyway then smash them that much harder, they would literally be asking for it at that point.

Telasi
2011-04-08, 01:32 AM
Lots of responses saying to go ahead with it. Sounds like my players aren't the only ones thinking that a worst case of going out with a bang isn't so bad.

I should probably clarify some things, though. First, Caelinor's Staff is meant to be used for a retributive strike; the maker used it as a safeguard to make assassinating him dangerous, since he could destroy a city in revenge. Essentially, a magical mutually assured destruction deterrent. He also had a secondary means of activating the strike through a ritual, but that was lost to history when he died. The ritual use was to be significant later in the campaign.

Second, I'm okay with them killing Kiravahn. Throughout this campaign, I've been trying to get the players to be self-motivated and rewarded clever plans, and this qualifies on both counts. My concern was more about the fairness of letting them kill themselves using an artifact without knowing the full consequences of that decision in-character.

In general, it seems that my original reaction is the one shared by the majority of the responding posters here. To be honest, it is an awesome way to end the game. Thank you for your responses. :smallsmile:

dsmiles
2011-04-08, 07:09 AM
I'm all for this. It ends the campaign in what is likely a Pyrrhic victory, and is at a shallower level completely awesome. This sort of stuff is memorable, and there is no reason to restrict it just because it goes against the plan.Exactly. Plans only last until the first shot is fired.

Amnestic
2011-04-08, 07:22 AM
Exactly. Plans only last until the first shot is fired.

When creative players are involved, you're lucky if they last that long :smallwink:

Nero24200
2011-04-08, 07:28 AM
I say let them do it.

If you let them they may fail, it may end the campaign, but it also shows just how much freedom their characters have in that they can attempt such world-shifting events (even if they fail those attempts). Keep any consequences their actions might have - If they fail it could even set up for another campaign where another party attempt to clean up the mess of the previous campaign.

If you don't let them on the other hand it comes across as rail-roady "This villan can't be killed until the DM says it's the end of the campaign" even if it's not the case.

Besides, a campaign ending isn't always bad. All campaigns have to end eventually - it's just a matter of them ending in a good way (defeating the BBEG or having a suitable heroic sacrifice etc) or ending in a bad way.

TheStranger
2011-04-08, 07:31 AM
If you're feeling really mean, and if the retributive strike kills all the PCs, don't tell them whether they succeeded in killing Kir as well. Just tell them they see him recoil, then there was a roar of light, sound and pain, then there was nothingness. Then see if they want to roll up new characters with no connection to the old ones and go try to figure out why there was an explosion that took out a good chunk of a continent. If they learn that Kir survived, you can pick up the plot from there. If they learn that they successfully killed him, you can tie that event into a new campaign. Either way, making them find out in-game whether their plan worked makes it even more epic, if they have the patience to do it that way.

Analytica
2011-04-08, 04:18 PM
If they die, let them become Vestiges available in the sequel. :smallsmile:

dsmiles
2011-04-08, 04:28 PM
If they die, let them become Vestiges available in the sequel. :smallsmile:
Especially if they win. :smallwink:

Telasi
2011-04-08, 04:31 PM
If they die, let them become Vestiges available in the sequel. :smallsmile:

Actually, that's a good idea. One of my players is fond of Binders (the one who came up with this plan, ironically).

Dr Bwaa
2011-04-08, 05:22 PM
I agree with everyone else. I mean, if your players are planning a retributive strike of some kind anyway, they've got to know how dangerous that is to the party (50% chance on a normal SotM to kill the breaker, too, right?)--and they also know that they're planning to destroy an artifact, which has its own inherent issues to compound with that. I say let 'em go for it. It will be a session everyone remembers.

Shyftir
2011-04-08, 05:25 PM
Or perhaps turn the BBEG into the vestige if he dies. Also you could have the blast have some kind of permanent affect on the BBEG even if he does survive so that if they find themselves playing new characters going after him, they don't feel like the other characters died for nothing.

Hat-Trick
2011-04-08, 05:32 PM
Or perhaps turn the BBEG into the vestige if he dies. Also you could have the blast have some kind of permanent affect on the BBEG even if he does survive so that if they find themselves playing new characters going after him, they don't feel like the other characters died for nothing.

Phobia: intense fear of snapping noises?

Quietus
2011-04-08, 05:35 PM
I'll chime in with everyone else - let the players go through with their plan, and give them the end result they earn through it. If your BBEG dies, that's fine. If all the characters die, that's fine too. If one is left standing, he has to deal with the fact that his friends all just sacrificed themselves, and an entire city, to end the threat presented by this one apparently very scary individual. All that's left is a crater, but the bad guy, and a number of people he cared very deeply for, are gone. Fade to black.

Stegyre
2011-04-08, 06:01 PM
I don't know that the plan has much hope of success without the players overcoming two logical defenses that any high level wizard should have in place:

1. A contingency to get himself completely out of the area, instantaneously. (I am thinking Contingency (Teleport) trigger: "when I want" or perhaps "when death is imminent.")

2. Your Daily Dose of Divination: Foresight or Moment of Prescience will help him survive this (or any) assaults, while Scrying or Detect Thoughts may alert him to the PCs' plans.

These thoughts don't even take into consideration the possibility that he already has a clone or that his "personal" interactions with the PCs are not all by simulacrum (far more trustworthy than casting a glamer over some minion).

Your PCs should probably be doing a lot of scrying and divination themselves to learn more about their target. These and other defenses can be countered, but it should never be nearly so easy as, "I walk into the throne room and activate my nuclear holocaust."

IMHO, YMMV.

Mewtarthio
2011-04-08, 11:21 PM
Your PCs should probably be doing a lot of scrying and divination themselves to learn more about their target. These and other defenses can be countered, but it should never be nearly so easy as, "I walk into the throne room and activate my nuclear holocaust."

IMHO, YMMV.

If the players sacrifice the entire party, saying "But he figured you'd do that, so you really died for nothing!" is kind of a jerkish thing to do, regardless of how realistic it is. Besides, what are the odds that this guy expects anyone to pull a trick like that on him? Nuclear holocaust is a deterrent, not Plan A. The BBEG should not expect that the PCs hate him so much they'll destroy themselves if it means taking him down in the process.

Ranos
2011-04-08, 11:29 PM
It seems like they're not expecting the thing to blow up half the plane. Maybe if they did, they would change their plans. Drop obvious clues as to the staff's exact function when they reach the cache of items. Then, once they know what the staff is for, let them make an informed choice. If they still go ahead with it, so be it.

Telasi
2011-04-09, 02:20 AM
The players have been warned that the staff is an artifact and that it will cause a significantly larger blast than normal for a staff of the magi. It's not exactly a plane-shattering artifact, but it will take out a decent chunk of countryside. Even a weakened Apocalypse from the Sky like the staff's secondary detonation effect is not generally taken lightly.

To be fair, recent conversation has indicated the players are also going to try to escape the blast radius by unspecified means. Since they can't teleport, that will take some doing, but staying in the blast is the last resort option.

Using divinations is not an option for either the PCs or Kiravahn. The players simply don't have them, and I've specifically promised that I won't abuse divinations in the manner suggested here. Simple, long-duration buffs are a given, but largely irrelevant to the functioning of the PC plan. The PCs just aren't powerful enough that Kiravahn considers them a real threat.

In any case, I'm looking forward to the session Sunday. I'm very interested to see how they plan to pull it off. I expect the results to be spectacular regardless of the outcome.

Kyberwulf
2011-04-09, 03:34 AM
lol "Nuclear holocaust is a deterrent, not Plan A." You never met my Players. >.> <.< >.>

Blood_caller
2011-04-09, 04:49 PM
for my players "Nuclear holocaust" is the Instinctive aktion... let us hear how it goes, always likes a good boom

nedz
2011-04-10, 05:12 PM
I'd say let them have their moment, they may even suprise you and survive :smallbiggrin:
You might want to throw in a Are you sure ?, but thats a question of your style.
If there is one PC who is likely to survive anyway: can't he just ressurect/reincarnate them?

Talakeal
2011-04-10, 06:01 PM
I would step out from behind the screen for a moment and tell them that if they go on with their plan they will not be happy. I would then explain to them that you are going to play the game straight as you have designed it, and that they shouldn't blame you if things do not go as they hope.

dsmiles
2011-04-10, 06:10 PM
I would step out from behind the screen for a moment and tell them that if they go on with their plan they will not be happy. I would then explain to them that you are going to play the game straight as you have designed it, and that they shouldn't blame you if things do not go as they hope.
But that takes all the "AWE" out of "AWESOME PLAN." You know what happens when you take the "AWE" out? You get just "some plan." It's also pretty railroady, taking away the free will of the characters, and all.

Really? Does, "you shouldn't do that, that's not the way I planned it," sound like fun to you?

Talakeal
2011-04-10, 06:15 PM
But that takes all the "AWE" out of "AWESOME PLAN." You know what happens when you take the "AWE" out? You get just "some plan." It's also pretty railroady, taking away the free will of the characters, and all.

Really? Does, "you shouldn't do that, that's not the way I planned it," sound like fun to you?

They say that honesty is always the best policy. If you are up front with them they will be a lot more happy than if you surprise them at the last moment. The people I play with always assume that a surprise was not actually a plan, but rather the DM screwing them with fiat or ass pulled plot elements as revenge for outsmarting him.

Railroading to me would be grasping for reasons why a plan wouldn't work, or just putting my foot down and saying no without any explanation. Simply warning someone they are about to do something stupid is in no way railroading.

If you are suggesting the DM simply hand waves away any negative consequences of a plan to make it more awesome, well, that really is railroading, because you are taking away their ability to make mistakes. I also wouldn't do it because I consider it cheating, although I know you disagree with me that "cheating" on behalf of the players is a bad thing.

dsmiles
2011-04-10, 06:24 PM
I'm not suggesting anything of the sort.

Step 1: Characters use retributive strike.
Step 2: Characters probably die in blast.
Step 3: Roll new Characters.
Step 4: Find out what actually happened through current plot.

No reason to warn them. They know the chances of surviving a retributive strike. Slim to none, and slim just left town.

Where's the railroading? Where's the fudging? They came up with the plan, they deal with the consequences of the plan (be they good or bad).

Morghen
2011-04-10, 08:21 PM
If you are up front with them they will be a lot more happy than if you surprise them at the last moment.Say what now?


warned them of several potential hazards involved in their plan. [snip] I believe that my players intend to carry out their plan in spite of my warnings. [snip] I chose to explicitly warn them of the potential repercussions.
The players have been warned that the staff is an artifact and that it will cause a significantly larger blast than normal for a staff of the magi.


I'm curious how things went down.

AslanCross
2011-04-10, 08:42 PM
I'd say drop one last hint that they may not be correct about his stats, then continue as you are. Dealing with the repercussions of this might be a nice starting hook for your next campaign!

Agreed.


I find the death of everything in a retributive strike to be awesome.

Never seen it in my campaigns before, but yes, this is awesome.

And this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2kYE3sdvZ8&feature=related0) is proof that the End of the World is not necessarily the end of the campaign.

gourdcaptain
2011-04-11, 12:07 AM
Player in the group here. (Thri-Kreen Rogue 1/Unarmed Swordsage 4 at time of plan). May post detailed summary when I have the time, but the session occured. After taking down the Crystal Dragon (young adult) guarding the staff (which didn't go according to plan at all, but no deaths) we warped back to the Wizard's antechamber with his presupplied teleport beacon.

When our improvised remote detonation device (Psycrystal loaded with weight dropped onto staff wedged on table for leverage) was revealed to be completely impractical with tools on hand, the party Psion (Elan (person most dedicated to plan, I came up with it) grabbed the staff and insisted on blowing it himself, and gave a warning that as soon as Kirhavan showed up, he would blow it. We ran. I mean, really ran. About ten minutes later, Kirhavan shows up, Psion declares "You Lose" and blows it. He gets pulled into an alternate plane, but it's the negative energy plane and died from that. Kirhavan is dead. I mean really dead. And then the Apocalypse from the Sky kicked in.

It was reduced, so only 15d6 damage and 10 mile area of effect. (Rolled 42 damage). Two party members are knocked unconcious but recover. Nearby town is glassed other than 5 or so low level adventurers. Session ends with PC (Human Warblade) who grew up there and wasn't there for this adventure swearing vengeance on us and the Psion if he survived. Yeah, fun. Oh, and OOC, apparently Kihravan of the Nine means we have a bunch of high level guys trying to get revenge on us.

Plus side, XP kicked us up to LV 8 from LV 6. And in my defense, my character joined recently (after previous was killed on a Kihravan blackmail mission of doom when caught stealing the Adamantine doors to his tower (didn't know he was alive)) and grew up in the middle of nowhere in a desert and didn't know what high level magic effects were when he devised the plan upon learning Staff of the Magi explode violently. Oh, and the Cleric brought the Crystal Dragon corpse with him, using an Ant Haul spell and is planning on zombifying it. Fun.

gourdcaptain
2011-04-11, 01:58 AM
Also, before people point out how stupid a plan this was, the plan to remote detonate failed because the room we were teleported in lacked a solid elevated surface, and I didn't think to ask the party cleric to prepare stoneshape. (I'm bad at remembering spells - a reason I mostly play prepared casters or non-casters. Sure, I'm less versatile, but I at least know what I can do and specialize in it).

And turns out the guy was a LV 18 Sorcerer. With a not terrible spell list. And undead.

Also - for this much destruction (Mage Tower full of loot, most of the adventure loot, town with about a thousand people), OOC - Totally worth it just for the story and getting rid of a BBEG and not having to go through with a McGuffin Delivery Service plot.
IC - Bit wracked with guilt. Oh, and there was a border skirmish between this country and another that will probably escalate into full on out war because we glassed a city. (Seriously, the area of the spell is pretty much a glassy, desolate, ruin.) Oh, and the party's semi-cohort succubus survived (Don't ask, the cleric's the last surviving worshipper of the god she works for).

nedz
2011-04-11, 03:34 PM
Sounds awesome :smallcool:

Telasi
2011-04-11, 04:01 PM
It was. gourdcaptain has pretty much summarized what happened, though I'll clarify a few points.

First, their remote detonation chance had a failure chance because it was improvised on the spot, rather than prepared for. The psicrystal would have had to hit the staff from a distance of 15 feet, and there was a slim chance something would have come loose in their cobbled together stand. They decided it wasn't worth the risk, and went with plan B.

Kiravahn Ebon-fist was a level 18 sorcerer lich. He is quite dead, mostly because you just can't predict someone is going to blow himself up with an artifact to take you out. Unfortunately, that still leaves the hinted at other eight Kiravahns (a cabal of people using the same name to confuse their enemies and to inspire fear).

The border skirmish he mentioned was already escalating into full war, and the magic blast pretty much confirmed that it would happen.

gourdcaptain
2011-04-11, 04:10 PM
It was. gourdcaptain has pretty much summarized what happened, though I'll clarify a few points.

First, their remote detonation chance had a failure chance because it was improvised on the spot, rather than prepared for. The psicrystal would have had to hit the staff from a distance of 15 feet, and there was a slim chance something would have come loose in their cobbled together stand. They decided it wasn't worth the risk, and went with plan B.

Yeah, well, it's part of what happens when you come up with a plan while in the plane of Earth without access to being able to buy components. When I said it wasn't going to work, the Psion became very... insistent about carrying it out. I ran like hell, because grappling and trying to get a staff of the magi from hell out of the hands of a guy willing to die is a very stupid idea.



Kiravahn Ebon-fist was a level 18 sorcerer lich. He is quite dead, mostly because you just can't predict someone is going to blow himself up with an artifact to take you out. Unfortunately, that still leaves the hinted at other eight Kiravahns (a cabal of people using the same name to confuse their enemies and to inspire fear).

The border skirmish he mentioned was already escalating into full war, and the magic blast pretty much confirmed that it would happen.

I still find it completely hilarious that we had a Lich carrying his Phylactery on him. That's just... wow. Kirahavahn never struck me as that intelligent a guy (which is fine, not every supervillain is Lex Luthor and it allows us to not be completely screwed in dealing with him at LV 6) considering he had the outer doors to his mage tower made from a material so valuable it was like locking your valuables in a safe made of gold. Also - when you have a plan involving retrieving a doomsday weapon, do it yourself - I can't believe it took him less time to get us to retrieve it than a quick lunch break plane shift, nuke dragon, plane shift would have. I don't even want to think to ask how much time crafting the one-shot teleport item took.

Still, very memorable and enjoyable session, I'm just amused at the consequences of being 900-years old, overconfident in your unstoppableness, and lazy. When Telasi let me look at the spell list, it was decent, so I think he used to be better than he is now, just that the lack of serious competetion for hundreds of years had severely dulled his edge.

(Also, anyone else think of the Dr. Seuss story "Too Many Daves"?)

P.S. Psion totally needs to become a vestige for this. Powers: Brain Lock, bonus to bluff, and the ability to self-destruct violently.

Mutazoia
2011-04-11, 04:11 PM
Ok...if you don't want to let them blow up the world, simply make breaking the staff more complex than snapping it over your knee.

Player:"I raise the staff over my head and crack it over my knee!"
GM: "Ok, you take 8 points of damage and your knee really hurts...the staff is fine, BTW."
Player: "huh?"
GM: "Kir laughs at you 'Did you really think that an artifact of tremendous power could be snapped like a twig?'"

If they want to break the staff they have to take it to the top mount Dee'kup, place it upon the alter of Igo, and strike it with the hammer of Emsee.

gourdcaptain
2011-04-11, 04:15 PM
Ok...if you don't want to let them blow up the world, simply make breaking the staff more complex than snapping it over your knee.

Player:"I raise the staff over my head and crack it over my knee!"
GM: "Ok, you take 8 points of damage and your knee really hurts...the staff is fine, BTW."
Player: "huh?"
GM: "Kir laughs at you 'Did you really think that an artifact of tremendous power could be snapped like a twig?'"

If they want to break the staff they have to take it to the top mount Dee'kup, place it upon the alter of Igo, and strike it with the hammer of Emsee.

Considering Telasi thought it was an awesomely stupid plan when I mentioned it ahead of time so he could prep for that eventuality, he didn't no-sell it as much as he could have. Considering the thing was meant to be broken by someone as retaliation for being assassinated, I imagine it would be pretty easy to break - if you've been poisoned for 1d6 Str/Con/Dex damage a round, you don't want it made of adamantium.

EDIT: Also, according to Telasi, the last expressions of Kirhavan were roughly in order "where is everyone else" "WTF?" and "Oh, CRAP." And we didn't blow up the world, only about 314.5926 miles of mostly barren wilderness and a town. Yeah. (To quote Rodney McKay, "It's not an exact science.")

Mutazoia
2011-04-11, 04:31 PM
Considering Telasi thought it was an awesomely stupid plan when I mentioned it ahead of time so he could prep for that eventuality, he didn't no-sell it as much as he could have. Considering the thing was meant to be broken by someone as retaliation for being assassinated, I imagine it would be pretty easy to break - if you've been poisoned for 1d6 Str/Con/Dex damage a round, you don't want it made of adamantium.

EDIT: Also, according to Telasi, the last expressions of Kirhavan were roughly in order "where is everyone else" "WTF?" and "Oh, CRAP." And we didn't blow up the world, only about 314.5926 miles of mostly barren wilderness and a town. Yeah. (To quote Rodney McKay, "It's not an exact science.")

lol yeah but there are two flaw's with that:

a) you don't want it to be mad of adamantium, but you don't want it snapping in half if you accidentally catch it cross-wise in the bedroom door frame.

b) any world specific major artifact that is designed to be broken and destroy the world in retaliation to an assassination attempt is just WAY stupid. The kind of mage that would be insane enough to craft that thing would probably have used it long before Kirhavan ever heard of it. Seriously. He would have snapped it when he found out he was going to die and couldn't take all his toy's with them :smallsmile:

Telasi
2011-04-11, 04:34 PM
I must admit a certain weakness for letting people do things, especially crazy awesome things. Sometimes they end up hanging themselves with the rope, but it's usually spectacular.

Yes, that was in fact the reason for the staff being easily broken. It's sufficiently powerful that no sane person is willingly going to break it. Unfortunately, the mage never got a chance to use the thing; his safeguard wasn't very good.

gourdcaptain
2011-04-11, 04:46 PM
Yes, that was in fact the reason for the staff being easily broken. It's sufficiently powerful that no sane person is willingly going to break it. Unfortunately, the mage never got a chance to use the thing; his safeguard wasn't very good.

Didn't you tell us he ended up dying in the bathroom from poison, the staff out of reach?

It spent the intervening years at some point transferred to a vault in the Elemental Plane of Earth, where the vault itself is a golem that makes deals with people to guard the vault for (very long) lengths of time in exchange for the items within. The dragon we fought (Crystal, Young Adult) was the guard. We tried to talk it into a deal where it kept the staff (the item it was guarding in exchange for, we didn't know it was a nuke yet) but it was a dragon of its word, thought we were puny and below it, and attacked. Should have listened to our deal for both sides to only do non-lethal attacks though - didn't turn out that well for it.

Mutazoia
2011-04-11, 05:15 PM
b) any world specific major artifact that is designed to be broken and destroy the world in retaliation to an assassination attempt is just WAY stupid. The kind of mage that would be insane enough to craft that thing would probably have used it long before Kirhavan ever heard of it. Seriously. He would have snapped it when he found out he was going to die and couldn't take all his toy's with them :smallsmile:

Come to think if it, he would have snapped it if he suddenly found out he was out of ice cream

Severus
2011-04-11, 06:32 PM
I think them all going out with a brilliant blast could be kinda awesome, but...

1) Are there gods in your world that might have an opinion on this? Might they act through agents or the like to prevent it?

2) are their oracles or diviners of sufficient power to see this? Might they act upon this information?

If this has such a dramatic impact upon the whole world, then there may be a sea of otherwise unnamed unmentioned NPCs that might get wind of this through various magical or other ways who might give a good way to lay out the consequences in character. It could even serve as a cool hook to introduce a new NPC who tips them to some of the future plot about the ritual, giving them a new ally.

That way you've sort of rewarded them for a clever plan, but given them some in-character options to move back towards the plot you had in mind.

Mutazoia
2011-04-11, 06:46 PM
I think them all going out with a brilliant blast could be kinda awesome, but...

1) Are there gods in your world that might have an opinion on this? Might they act through agents or the like to prevent it?

2) are their oracles or diviners of sufficient power to see this? Might they act upon this information?

LoL I can just see a whole band of NPC attacking the party because they intend to destroy the world just to kill one lousy wizard

gibbo88
2011-04-12, 12:04 AM
a) you don't want it to be mad of adamantium, but you don't want it snapping in half if you accidentally catch it cross-wise in the bedroom door frame.


That makes an awesome mental image.

Roderick_BR
2011-04-12, 09:18 AM
On one hand, they are, literally, playing with forces they don't know. They have no idea of what a retribution strike from a major artifact may cause. Drop some hints in-game from some wise NPCs that such action is a Very Bad Idea (tm).
On the other hand... it's a major artifact. It should be harder to destroy than just casting a Disjunction on it or hiting it very hard. It should take a Lord of the Ring-esque campaign to do so. Let they know it in-game too, so they don't complain if their plan fail because "the darn thing won't break".

gourdcaptain
2011-04-12, 10:00 AM
On one hand, they are, literally, playing with forces they don't know. They have no idea of what a retribution strike from a major artifact may cause. Drop some hints in-game from some wise NPCs that such action is a Very Bad Idea (tm).
On the other hand... it's a major artifact. It should be harder to destroy than just casting a Disjunction on it or hiting it very hard. It should take a Lord of the Ring-esque campaign to do so. Let they know it in-game too, so they don't complain if their plan fail because "the darn thing won't break".

Uh, we already broke the bloody thing. Mentioned this earlier. Also, the entire point of the artifact's creation in the first place was to break it. Also mentioned earlier.

Kylarra
2011-04-12, 10:40 AM
The two standard staves with retributive strike prevent accidental breakage by saying that the intent must be declared ahead of time.

Mutazoia
2011-04-13, 06:33 PM
Uh, we already broke the bloody thing. Mentioned this earlier. Also, the entire point of the artifact's creation in the first place was to break it. Also mentioned earlier.

Yeah but its still fun to discuss as an exercise in theory