Help Wanted: Warrior Monk build

[psion_008]

Trying to come up with a thematically "warrior monk" build that will allow me to keep pace with some high tier classes that aren't superbly optimized.

My initial thoughts were (not all these are mine)

Monk x/ Shou Disciple x / Kensai

Monk x/ Sword Sage x / Shou Disciple

Sword Sage / Shadow Sun Ninja

I was also thinking about using Kung Fu Genius/Cardemine Monk to Combat MAD on some of the builds.

Not looking for a broken character, but alternate builds are welcome as are feat/skill/power selection suggestions.

Thanks for taking the time I appreciate it.

[holywhippet]

Are you adverse to spell casting? Sacred fist gives you full BAB progression, some nice features and increases divine spellcasting on most levels.

[Cog]

Monk 2/Psychic Warrior X with the Tashalatora feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070212a&page=5) is a classic, thematic build as well.

[Keld Denar]

Monk x/ Sword Sage x / Shou Disciple

Sword Sage / Shadow Sun Ninja

One of these 2, as long as in the Monk x equasion, X is not > 2. 2 levels gives you a decent dip, but more than 2 is wasteful when you could be picking up delicious delicious maneuvers.

[Kylarra]

I suggest swordsage/shadow sun ninja, but that may be just because I like SS ninja.

[gorfnab]

Human Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 2/ Shou Disciple 5/ Kensai 10

1. B: Weapon Finesse, Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike
3. Dodge
4. B: Mobility
5. B: Combat Expertise
6. Snap Kick
7. B: Spring Attack
9. B: Deflect Arrows or Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes
12. Bounding Assault
15. Improved Natural Attack
18. Rapid Blitz

[turkishproverb]

See if your DM will let you use the Pathfinder MOnk.

[Otherworld Odd]

See if your DM will let you use the Pathfinder MOnk.

Even then, monk still isn't good. Better. But not good.

[turkishproverb]

Compared to normal D&D classes, it's good. And some of the abilities it gives you makes it worth taking actual levels in.

[Sacrieur]

No no no no no.

Never use monk. Always use unarmed Swordsage if you're going to monk.

---

Unarmed Swordsage X is pretty warrior esque. You can even wear spiked gauntlets and light armor.

[DwarfFighter]

And some of us don't use other classes than the ones in the player hand-book.

-DF

[Sacrieur]

And some of us don't use other classes than the ones in the player hand-book.

-DF

Perhaps I read the OP wrong, I thought it said something about keeping up with higher tier classes.

Monk is effectively a level drain. The monk is tier 5, it can't even compete with tier 3s, let along tier 1s and 2s. Incredibly high optimizations can push monk to around tier 4, but that's the best I've seen.

1) Unarmed Swordsage is a monk without the useless class abilities. You get maneuvers and stances to boot.

2) You're starting out at tier 3, which means you can actually compete with higher tier classes.

---

You can complain that the ToB takes work to get affiliated to. That's perfectly fine really, go ahead, don't use it. Your class won't be able to compete with higher tiers, though.

EDIT: Self scrubbed. :<

[Tvtyrant]

You can complain that the ToB takes work to get affiliated to. That's perfectly fine really, go ahead, don't use it. Use your monk, but don't come crying back about how overpowered the wizard is when your character gets outshined in every encounter.

Kinda aggressive since the poster didn't say that at all. :smallconfused:

Anyway, Tashalatora and Unarmed Swordsage are probably your best bet this side of some disgusting multi-prc monstrosity :P Though you could go Chaos Monk/Druid/Divine Fist and then use your Druid spells to buff yourself. Especially Shillelagh at lower levels with a quarterstaff.

[faceroll]

Monk used as the chassis for gish builds is solidly high T3, and with proper itemization, can contribute to T2/T1 parties.

But without ToB or casting, monk can never get beyond T4. It's just the way the game works. Normals get the short end of the stick once they hit mid levels.

If by keep up, you just want to not die and do over 9000 damage, then monk is doable. I wouldn't recommend more than a couple levels in monk, though.

I find that with melee heavy builds, race plays a huge roll in what you do. See if your DM isn't averse to templates like Half-Minotaur, Feral, Draconic, or Mineral Warrior. Lolth-Touched is also really solid, but makes you CE. Dragonborn is almost a must have, as it nets you flight.

If you don't mind alignment shenanigans, I would try something like:
Barb2/Monk2/Fighter2/Fist of the Forest 5 (or 3 or whatever).

Feats would be:
Extra Rage
whatever pre-reqs are needed for FotF
Superior Unarmed Strike
Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike)

Use the whirling rage frenzy variant from unearthed arcana for an extra attack.

This build gets you two extra attacks, con, wis, and dex to ac, and fist damage of 3d6.

There's a prestige class in oriental adventures that a first level dip gets you wisdom to attack and damage. I recall it requiring you to set 3 feats on fire, though.

[Gwendol]

While in OA you can take levels in OA Shaman: it nets you an animal companion (see druid) and a limited, but not useless spell list. Go for strength and travel domain.

[psion_008]

Thanks for the help, there is a lot to digest here.

Not opposed to casting.

Shall see if the DM will allow monstrous races, but he was hesitant on the War-forged Artificer though...

Psionics are out :smallfrown: or I'd be all over the psionic warrior. They just can do crazy stuff.

[Tokuhara]

Hmmmm........

Monk 6/Ur Priest 1/Sacred Fist 7/Diabolist 6? Actually makes monk somewhat viable...

As I sometimes say, "If it doesn't work, Add Ur Priest and try again..."

[faceroll]

I recommend arcane casting, then. Greater Mighty Wallop is pro, and there are feats that let you key your monk abilities off of int or cha instead of wis. Then you get stuff like mage armor, shield, enlarge person, wraithstrike, girallon's blessing, claws of the beast, magic weapon, haste, belker's claws, chill touch, etc. etc. There are a TON of 1st to 3rd level spells in the Spell Compendium that make for incredible gishes. Focused Specialist Transmuter might be pretty handy, given how many of the good spells are transmutation. Ban evocation, illusion, and enchantment.

[Kylarra]

Hmmmm........

Monk 6/Ur Priest 1/Sacred Fist 7/Diabolist 6? Actually makes monk somewhat viable...

As I sometimes say, "If it doesn't work, Add Ur Priest and try again..."Monk 6 doesn't get you the required skill ranks. You need to acquire 6 ranks in bluff and 8 ranks in spellcraft and those are CC for the monk.

Adding ur-priest to a build doesn't make that class viable, it just says more about ur priest.

[Eldariel]

Thanks for the help, there is a lot to digest here.

Not opposed to casting.

Shall see if the DM will allow monstrous races, but he was hesitant on the War-forged Artificer though...

Psionics are out :smallfrown: or I'd be all over the psionic warrior. They just can do crazy stuff.

Monk 1/Cleric 5/Sacred Fist in my humble opinion (assuming fractional BAB; otherwise the BAB losses from this are pretty painful). Sacred Fist is the best Monk/Casting Prestige Class even if you account for it losing caster levels (strict Text Trumps Table reading has it as a full casting class, though, but check up on that with your DM).

Divine casting also synergizes extremely well with Beating The Tar Out Of People as many of the good divine spells simply make you better at Beating The Tar Out Of People. Spells of interest include Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful [SC], Holy Star [SC], Greater Luminous Armor [BoED], Shield of Faith, Resistance-line and eventually, stuff like Miracle replicating Giant Size.


If you play in a world like Faerun, God of Magic is extremely logical deity to worship, given Monks themselves are mystical (as is shown in their abilities; like half of the stuff they get is supernatural). This would get you Spell-domain [SC] which in turn would get you some nice arcane buff spells, notably Greater Mighty Wallop [RotD], Shield and the like.

[Tokuhara]

Monk 6 doesn't get you the required skill ranks. You need to acquire 6 ranks in bluff and 8 ranks in spellcraft and those are CC for the monk.

Adding ur-priest to a build doesn't make that class viable, it just says more about ur priest.

Take skill focus: spellcraft and bluff. Burn two feats and voila

[Kylarra]

Take skill focus: spellcraft and bluff. Burn two feats and voilaSkill Focus does not give you ranks in the skill or make the skill a class skill. Plus you don't really have that many feats to burn in the first place since you need to use 2 of them on prereqs bar Otyugh Hole.

[Tokuhara]

Skill Focus does not give you ranks in the skill or make the skill a class skill. Plus you don't really have that many feats to burn in the first place since you need to use 2 of them on prereqs bar Otyugh Hole.

or, Be human, pick up the Alternate style that gives you bluff, and take Skill Focus level one, and pump ranks in it

[dextercorvia]

or, Be human, pick up the Alternate style that gives you bluff, and take Skill Focus level one, and pump ranks in it

Skill Focus provides a bonus -- it doesn't grant ranks. Max Ranks in a cross-class skill is (Level+3)/2. You can't get around that this way.

[Tokuhara]

Skill Focus provides a bonus -- it doesn't grant ranks. Max Ranks in a cross-class skill is (Level+3)/2. You can't get around that this way.

Okay. then drop a couple levels of sacred fist, pick up a few more levels of monk. At least you have decent spellcasting. May not be full, but you can blend Inflict Wounds spells with your unarmed strikes.

If you REALLY want to hurt someone, do Battledancer from Dragon Magazine Compendium

[Eldariel]

Skill Focus provides a bonus -- it doesn't grant ranks. Max Ranks in a cross-class skill is (Level+3)/2. You can't get around that this way.

You need a feat that can get you skills in class; check this:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860850/Alternative_ways_to_get_new_Class_skills

[Kylarra]

In order to qualify using a pure monk you'd need 13 levels of monk.

I also made a mistake earlier since I forgot to mention needing 5 ranks in know(planes).


You need a feat that can get you skills in class; check this:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860850/Alternative_ways_to_get_new_Class_skills
Huh, some of those I didn't actually know. So if you were a Criminal apprentice with the Keeper of Forbidden Lore you could actually qualify at the cost of having pretty much no other skills (assuming int 13).

[gorfnab]

Warforged Monk 2/ Druid 3/ Landforged Walker 5/ Sacred Fist 10
Duskblade 3/ Monk 2/ Ur-Priest 2/ Sacred Fist 10/ Enlightened Fist 3

[GeekGirl]

Warforged Monk 2/ Druid 3/ Landforged Walker 5/ Sacred Fist 10

May be a dumb question, but isn't warforged Composite plated counted as armor? If so, wont it loose its monk abilities?

I could be wrong and miss reading something, just wanted to make sure

[Cog]

May be a dumb question, but isn't warforged Composite plated counted as armor? If so, wont it loose its monk abilities?
Only if you take the feats. The basic composite plating is just fine. Monks are prevented from wearing armor, not from having an armor bonus.

[Eldariel]

May be a dumb question, but isn't warforged Composite plated counted as armor?

So no, it's actually not counted as armor. Which makes it very convenient (though don't be misled; it's not overpowered). Kinda similar to Mage Armor, Luminous Armor, Bracers of Armor and other low level sources of Armor-bonus.

[Cog]

So no, it's actually not counted as armor. Which makes it very convenient (though don't be misled; it's not overpowered). Kinda similar to Mage Armor, Luminous Armor, Bracers of Armor and other low level sources of Armor-bonus.
Yeah, +2 armor but -2 Wis means they net to merely +1 AC, and they get some immunities, free access to armor enhancements, and access to battlefists. A lot of those are things the monk desperately needs to begin with, so it works out fine.

[Curmudgeon]

Because of the many customization options I like the Ascetic Rogue multiclassing feat. You're only going to take 2 levels of Monk, but you'll get good benefit from them. So Rogue 1/Monk 2/Rogue X.

Start with a good choice for race. A lesser Dust Para-Genasi gives +4 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CON, -2 CHA, and has Favored Class: Rogue; it also does not breathe. Dragon # 297 (pages 62-66) has this and other planetouched races (all +1 level adjustment); the lesser option (Player's Guide to Faerûn, page 191) makes the character Humanoid (planetouched) instead of Outsider, and reduces the LA to +0.

If you're playing in a Forgotten Realms campaign, take the Dark Creature template from Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave (page 152). It's +1 level adjustment to get capabilities including Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight (same as the Shadowdancer ability) and substantial bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, and you can buy that LA off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) for 3,000 XP at class level 3.

Select Improved Grapple (because Stunning Fist almost never works) and Combat Reflexes as your Monk bonus feats. Instead of evasion at Monk level 2, take the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21) to be able to turn invisible for a full round, every 3 rounds.

For your Rogue levels, pick the Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208) in place of trap sense at level 3; this gives you sneak attack with ½ the normal dice against sneak-immune foes when you flank them.

When your party can afford it, you need to buy, train with for a month, and then sell back a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide, page 137). With a Bard or other party member with good Diplomacy you'll pay 9/10th of the list price, and then sell back for 10/9th of the normal half price. That ends up costing you only 34.4% of the full price of the item, and (if your party can front you the money) you might get that training in as early as level 6. That training lets you make a 10' adjustment whenever you would be allowed a 5' step. With this capability you'll be able to make full attacks and step back 10'. Against most enemies this will prevent full counterattacks.

Assuming you pick two flaws you can live with, I suggest these feats:
1: Craven: +1/character level to sneak attack damage
1: Darkstalker: Hide vs. tremorsense, blindsight, & c.
1: Kung Fu Genius: use INT instead of WIS for Monk AC bonus
3: Weapon Finesse: DEX bonus to melee attacks
6: Ascetic Rogue: stack Monk+Rogue levels for unarmed damage
9: Snap Kick: extra unarmed attack with melee attacks

You're going to want to encourage your party Sorcerer/Wizard to learn Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon, page 115) and cast it on you once daily; this gives you significant effective size boosts to your unarmed attacks.

As for equipment, you'll want a Necklace of Natural Attack (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) for an offensive boost. Either Bracers of Armor or robes with the same armor enhancement (see Magic Item Compendium on pages 234) for defense. See if you can get someone to craft a Skill bonus (competence) boosting item for Hide.

The basic strategem for this character is to Hide always. Walk around with a composite shortbow ready to fire, and get as many arrows as possible into flat-footed foes at the start of combat for guaranteed sneak attack damage. After that make full unarmed attacks (using Hide in Plain Sight to Hide while attacking), then step back 10' and Hide again. You'll take a -20 to the Hide checks while attacking, which is why you want to boost that with the Dark Creature template (+8), maximum skill ranks, and the magic item. But every 3 rounds you will become invisible, so that adds +20 to your Hide checks. :smallsmile:

The combination of decent damage (Ascetic Rogue + Greater Mighty Wallop + sneak attack) with low chance of being hit (10' adjustments + not being targetable while hidden) should make for a pretty good warrior Monk character.

[Tancred]

Wow. I've played my current character for the past 3 years now, and your suggestion above is so very similar. Only... you did it better.

I deliberately set myself some limitations because I was a powergamer starting a new campaign with a bunch of people who'd never played before. But for the sake of contribution, I'll add my own thoughts that may or may not help with character flavour.


Rogue 1/Monk 2/Rogue X.

Start with a good choice for race. A lesser Dust Para-Genasi

Nice. So far I've gone with a human (see above) Rogue 1/Monk 6/Matapor Street Wrestler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159190) 3/Fighter 1/[Custom PrC] 1, with the intention of another level of Fighter and most of the rest as MSW.


If you're playing in a Forgotten Realms campaign, take the Dark Creature template from Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave

It's also in Tome of Magic, if that's allowed. I took this template in place of a level up after an extended jaunt in the Plane of Shadow, and just paid off the LA adjustment using the buy-off rules as described (I only gained it when I hit ECL11) :smallcool:


Select Improved Grapple (because Stunning Fist almost never works) and Combat Reflexes as your Monk bonus feats.

If you decide you want to go to Monk 6 for speed/AC/bonus feat, check out the variant monk types in Unearthed Arcana. I picked Denying Stance, which has worked quite well for me.


When your party can afford it, you need to buy, train with for a month, and then sell back a Sparring Dummy of the Master

I would love to try this. But my DM feels it's on the cheese scale. I have powergamer-skewed vision, so I'm trusting his judgement, and I promised no cheese. :smallwink:


Assuming you pick two flaws you can live with, I suggest these feats:

Nice choices. I went for Combat Expertise (survivability was one of my core design aims, and it stacks with fighting defensively for up to +8AC), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Kusari-Gama) for trips (Spiked Chain would work just as well), Improved Natural Attack, and Mage Slayer, among other ones picked for PrC requirements. I'm planning on getting Pierce Magic Concealment, for its synergy with a Ring of Blinking.



Greater Mighty Wallop

Yes, yes, a hundred times yes. Buy your party the ability to cast this if need be.


As for equipment, you'll want a Necklace of Natural Attack (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) for an offensive boost.

*nod*

I don't believe monks are viable without this. We use a house-ruled equivalent that takes the Hands slot, but the mechanics are essentially the same.


The basic strategem for this character is

The Pierce Magical Concealment / Ring of Blinking strategy I'm using would also give you plenty of sneak attack opportunity.

Curmudgeon, love your work. If I ever try this character concept again (it's loads of fun) and I have opportunity to push the boundaries a bit more, I'll be using your tips to do so.

[Curmudgeon]

It's also in Tome of Magic, if that's allowed.
Those templates are actually substantially different, because the Hide in Plain Sight in the Tome of Magic template is Extraordinary rather than Supernatural. The ToM HiPS doesn't remove the need for cover/concealment. So, unless you're walking around with a Deeper Darkness spell somewhere on your gear (and constantly having people say "Hey - who dimmed the lights?"), you'll be dependent on the terrain to determine where you're allowed to Hide.

I took this template in place of a level up after an extended jaunt in the Plane of Shadow, and just paid off the LA adjustment using the buy-off rules as described (I only gained it when I hit ECL11)
Actually, unless you've got 8 racial hit dice, ECL 11 will be well past the only time you're allowed to buy off +1 LA, which is at class level 3. Those buy-off rules are pretty stringent about when when they're applicable. If your DM has a house rule on this point maybe you're OK.

[Tancred]

Those templates are actually substantially different, because

Huh. You're right. I never noticed that.

My DM is already going with the Cormyr definition; whether that's through oversight or fiat I'm not sure, but since I'm mostly monk it's probably a moot point anyway :smallwink:


Actually, unless you've got 8 racial hit dice [...] If your DM has a house rule on this point maybe you're OK.

We do, and for balance reasons it was my suggestion to wait until I'd gained character levels.

[olentu]

Huh. You're right. I never noticed that.

My DM is already going with the Cormyr definition; whether that's through oversight or fiat I'm not sure, but since I'm mostly monk it's probably a moot point anyway :smallwink:



We do, and for balance reasons it was my suggestion to wait until I'd gained character levels.

Oh I would think it could be either oversight or fiat since as I recall things in rule books take precedence over those in published adventures except for such things in published adventures that deal with something specific and limited to only that adventure. But then again perhaps he just thinks it is not a big deal.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'd go with swordsage/kensai. Don't want supernatural abilities? Make your disciplines tiger claw, diamond mind, and setting sun.

Though warblade/swordsage/kensai can be just as good.