Duskblade Question (3.5)

[Aurious]

Hello. I'm unsure as to whether or not this particular issue has been addressed here on the forum; at any rate, it concerns the Arcane Channeling class feature for the Duskblade.

Simply put, when one channels a spell through their weapon, is it permissible to channel ANY spell with the 'touch' descriptor, or are 'ranged touch' spells something else entirely, and therefore not capable of being channeled through a melee weapon (essentially, is it possible to channel Disintegrate as Duskblade)?

My DM and I recently found ourselves at a loss when it came down to this question, and would appreciate any help in this matter.

Thank you for your time.

[Gwendol]

The desription of the arcane channeling ability specifically leaves out the "melee" and "ranged" descriptor. I'd rule that ranged touch spells can be channeled based on that.

[Elric VIII]

AFAIK, no spell that requires a ranged touch attack actually has a "Range: Ranged Touch," but a defined range of "Close (25ft. + 5ft./2 levels)" or "Medium (100ft. + 10ft./level)."

Duskblade can only channel spells with the entry "Range: Touch."

Also, "Touch" is not a descriptor. Things next to the school/subschool, like [Evil] or [Fire], are descriptors.

[Malbordeus]

otherwise you'd get a lot of off colour jokes whenever you cast a bestow curse spell as it would have the [evil][touch] descriptors.

something along the lines of "ahhh! bad touch! no means no!" being chorus'd around the table.

[Elric VIII]

otherwise you'd get a lot of off colour jokes whenever you cast a bestow curse spell as it would have the [evil][touch] descriptors.

something along the lines of "ahhh! bad touch! no means no!" being chorus'd around the table.

Yeah, this has never stopped that joke from being made, in my group, any time any enemy uses a touch attack.

[Douglas]

The Duskblade "touch" restriction is not about what kind of attack roll you're making. It's about the range of the spell, and when you're talking about range "touch" means melee. "Ranged touch" is a type of attack roll, designating a range attack that rolls against touch AC, and is a completely different thing from "touch range".

[Aurious]

otherwise you'd get a lot of off colour jokes whenever you cast a bestow curse spell as it would have the [evil][touch] descriptors.

something along the lines of "ahhh! bad touch! no means no!" being chorus'd around the table.

That's hilarious, heh. Thank you all for your input, at any rate. Much appreciated. Still, I'm wondering if a Ray, such as Disintegrate, could be channeled, to put it simply. That's all.

[arguskos]

That's hilarious, heh. Thank you all for your input, at any rate. Much appreciated. Still, I'm wondering if a Ray, such as Disintegrate, could be channeled, to put it simply. That's all.
No, it can't be.

Arcane Channel only works on spells with Range: Touch. Rays have Range: Close or Medium, not Range: Touch. Therefore, it doesn't work.

[Thurbane]

Do other classes with similar abilities, like the Spellsword or Ordained Champion, have the same restriction?

[MeeposFire]

No, it can't be.

Arcane Channel only works on spells with Range: Touch. Rays have Range: Close or Medium, not Range: Touch. Therefore, it doesn't work.

At least one exception-if you take the enlightened fist prestige class at level 7 or higher can use their hold ray to change the range of disintegrate and polar ray into touch range spells and thus can be used with arcane channeling. By 20th level you could have both hold ray and full attack arcane channeling thus allowing you to hit as many targets as you can in a full attack and each target would be hit by a disintegrate or a polar ray. Very nasty.

So duskblade13/enlightened fist7 for touch range ray attacks.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Oh my...I am sparking a build idea as we speak. What if you replaced a few of those duskblade levels for a few levels of spellwarp sniper too. All that would need to happen then is gain access to a wider selection of spells and you can warp any area spell into a ray which can thus be held, which can thus be full attacked via duskblade.

EDIT: I see how that wont work now lol. I thought full attack arcane channel came a few levels earlier than that.

[Aurious]

Intriguing, to be honest, and I do very much appreciate the input. Means a lot.

[Boci]

Do other classes with similar abilities, like the Spellsword or Ordained Champion, have the same restriction?

Neither have the restriction but both stat that only the target of the attack if affected, even if the channeled spell normally has an area of affect.
Additionally, Enlightened fist can turn ray spells into touch spells, but getting into that pre-epic with greater arcane channeling requires burning two feats on improved uanrmed strike and stunning fist. Still, Duskblade 13 / Monk 1 / Enlightened fist 7 is a soilid CR: 21 build.

Edit: Also note that all the alternative options to the duskblade are all inferior (beyond allowing for a wider selection of spells). Ordained champion requires a move action to put the spell in your weapon, making it inferior to even the 3rd level arcane channelling ability, although no maximum duration is specified for how long the weapon can hold the spell, presumable it is treated as holding the charge like a regular touch spell.
The spellsword suffers from the same limitation (and same "unlimited" duration), and can only be used 5/day (at level 8, less before then) although they atleast gain the ability to go slightly nova by channeling two spells at once, but that requires two move equivilant actions.
The enlightened fist at least allows a full attack, but you can only deliver the spell on one attack.
There is also smiting spell from PH II, a +1 metamagic that allows you to cast a touch spell into a weapon where it stays for up to one minute, being dicharged into the first target it hits. The feat makes no mention of an altered casting time, so its really a pre-combat buff tactic, unless you want to blow resources on quickening/can find a swift action touch spell. At least you can get a full attack off with this, but still inferior to greater arcane channeling.

[Aurious]

Also note that all the alternative options to the duskblade are all inferior (beyond allowing for a wider selection of spells).

I agree with you completely in regards to this statement. This is why it is rather frustrating that the Duskblade does not have access to more touch spells than it does. Many of the spells on their list make no sense to me, such as Channeled Pyroburst (I mean, really? I have to charge it for two whole rounds to achieve the best results, and it is unchannelable? Useless, unless I want to play the party caster, and an inferior one at that.) I think it would be fitting if they would reconsider the content they put in place, or errata it at the least, supplementing the spell list with some stuff that makes sense.

Otherwise, is there a way to gain spells from other lists? That would be nice.

At least the Duskblade 13/Monk 1/Enlightened Fist 7 is a viable option, and a nasty build at that. I truly appreciate your input, all of you. Thank you.

[Thurbane]

If the DM is open to homebrew, here is a suggested expanded spell list for Duskblades: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2416523#post2416523

[Aurious]

Hmm... these look rather promising. My thanks, good sir, for your expeditious reply.

[Kaje]

In gestalt, we can get something sweet like this:

Dwarf Rogue 1/Monk 1/Duskblade 13/Warblade 3/Bloodstorm Blade 2//Wizard 5/Runesmith 1/Enlightened Fist 7/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Wizard 2.

Cast 9ths in full plate, channeling touch, ray, and 5th level area spells as melee or thrown attacks. Stab your enemies with a fireball, no save. And a few 7th level maneuvers, if you can meet the prereqs.

[dextercorvia]

You get quite a lot of good Touch spells from Chameleon 7.

[Optimator]

You get quite a lot of good Touch spells from Chameleon 7.

Heheh, I was all geared up to mention this. Duskblade 3 is great for getting into Chameleon. Ninja 3 Duskblade 3 is particularly fun.

[Thurbane]

In gestalt, we can get something sweet like this:

Dwarf Rogue 1/Monk 1/Duskblade 13/Warblade 3/Bloodstorm Blade 2//Wizard 5/Runesmith 1/Enlightened Fist 7/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Wizard 2.

Cast 9ths in full plate, channeling touch, ray, and 5th level area spells as melee or thrown attacks. Stab your enemies with a fireball, no save. And a few 7th level maneuvers, if you can meet the prereqs.
Is that using PrCs on both sides of gestalt?

[dextercorvia]

Is that using PrCs on both sides of gestalt?

There isn't anything inherently wrong with that, but he could switch the last two levels from one side of the gestalt to the other and it would satisfy that if it is a problem.

[Kaje]

Technically, there are no "sides" of a gestalt. But it never uses 2 prcs at a given level, if that's what you mean.

Actually, since I posted that build, I've realized a potential problem with it. Enlightened Fist could possibly be banned in gestalt as it advances casting and monk abilities. If it's a problem ask your DM to gimp EF to not advance monk abilities. It's not like you're using them anyway, as you're probably carrying a weapon and wearing heavy armor. And you can still channel through an unarmed strike if you want (say after you've thrown your weapon with a channeled ranged melee attack), though you won't do as much damage.

Once you hit epic you probably want to get two more levels of bloodstorm blade to full attack at range, and 5 levels of Legacy Champion will let you warp 9ths.

[darksolitaire]

Otherwise, is there a way to gain spells from other lists? That would be nice.


There is. It is a PrC, sits inside Dragon Magazine 280, and is called Eldritch Master. With it, you can even get 6th level spell slots to Duskblade. I'd say it's bit more official then homebrew, but given that Dragon Magazine stuff tends to irk some people...

[mrcarter11]

Can someone explain the point of channeling a ray by means of Enlightened Fist?
Doesn't the ray only effect the first person you hit? So what is the point of wasting the class levels, to reduce the range at which your spells work, and then to only be able to have it effect one person still..

[Big Fau]

For adding spells to the list: Changeling Recaster (Races of Eberron), Wyrm Wizard (Dragon Magic), Sand Shaper (Sandstorm), and Rainbow Servant (CD) all work (the latter means no Full Attack Arcane Channeling).

And anything that provides Domains can work, but only if you can bypass the usual requirements (turn undead, divine spellcasting, etc).


Finally, the Arcane Disciple feat works wonderfully, especially because there's a deity that grants all domains to his Clerics (and 5 free bonus feats on top of that).

[MeeposFire]

Can someone explain the point of channeling a ray by means of Enlightened Fist?
Doesn't the ray only effect the first person you hit? So what is the point of wasting the class levels, to reduce the range at which your spells work, and then to only be able to have it effect one person still..

You can channel a spell with a full attack assuming you go duskblade 13. Since you can channel rays that means you can use more powerful spells than the average duskblade with channeling. For instance polar ray and disintegrate are both on the DB list but you cannot normally channel them but with enlightened fist you can with your full attack.

[mrcarter11]

That's part of my point.. The EF class feature says it only works on the first attack of the full attack

[dextercorvia]

That's part of my point.. The EF class feature says it only works on the first attack of the full attack

Enlightened Fist has two relevant features here and you are confusing the two. The one we are referring to is Hold Ray. This is the ability to cast a Ray as a Touch spell, making it eligible for Arcane Channeling. You do not have to use the EF's channeling ability (the name escapes me at the moment) with Hold Ray. They are separate.

[MeeposFire]

Enlightened Fist to make rays into touch spells and then duskblade full attack with touch attacks via full attack channeling.

[Kaje]

The poster may have ben referring simply to the EF's ability to hold ray at all, rather than to its purpose in this build. In that case, it's still useful since you can still deliver the spell as part of a full attack, even if you can only use it on one attack, and you don't provoke while doing it.

[Aurious]

As always, the contributions to this discussion from everyone are simply awesome. Thank you for your time and efforts.

I have to say, for a non-Gestalt build, the whole Duskblade 13/Monk 1/Enlightened Fist 7 looks more and more appealing, and the improved spell-lists provided are nothing short of a god-send in many respects. As for Gestalt, all I have to say is...


In gestalt, we can get something sweet like this:

Dwarf Rogue 1/Monk 1/Duskblade 13/Warblade 3/Bloodstorm Blade 2//Wizard 5/Runesmith 1/Enlightened Fist 7/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Wizard 2.

Cast 9ths in full plate, channeling touch, ray, and 5th level area spells as melee or thrown attacks. Stab your enemies with a fireball, no save. And a few 7th level maneuvers, if you can meet the prereqs.

I think that sums up the utter nastiness that is possible with this sort of thing. Simply amazing. Of course, the thought occurred to me that one could also create a different build that would combine the Duskblade with the Cleric (a touch spell powerhouse, for certain), as well a Wizard or Sorcerer and then possibly Mystic Theurge, although the levels required for this would probably be up in the mid-to-high 30's, most likely.

Essentially, using Arcane Channeling in conjunction with Harm or Heal, depending on what you were fighting at the moment.

What do you all think?

Please, let me know. I look forward to any and all responses, truly.

[Talionis]

I was wondering if a Duskblade spellthief could channel a stolen spell? If so is there a better Domain for Gods Blood Spelltheft than Decay?

[hex0]

More touch spells? Duskblade 13/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 2/Ultimate 4 will get you a few. Maybe Duskblade 13/Warmage 1/(spontaneous/spontaneous variant) Ultimate Magus 6 for the Edge.

Or ask your DM if you can switch Quick Cast and/or Spell Power for an Advanced Learning feature (ala Beguiler) to add touch spells of 1 level lower than you can cast to your list.

[Aurious]

I was wondering if a Duskblade spellthief could channel a stolen spell? If so is there a better Domain for Gods Blood Spelltheft than Decay?

Regarding your question, I have reviewed the Spellthief and can find no reason why a Duskblade/Spellthief couldn't use Arcane Channeling with their own or their stolen spells, provided you use touch spells, or combine the mix with a little Monk/Enlightened Fist (Hold Ray is an excellent ability for this, although you need several levels of EF to obtain it and it requires a Stunning Fist expenditure to activate).
However, the Enlightened Fist has some slightly convoluted prerequisites in my opinion, such that taking Monk at 1st level is almost required (a la Stunning Fist); as such, the lowest possible level for acquiring all the abilities for such a build, as a non-Gestalt character, would be around 21st.

In short: Monk 1 / Duskblade 9 / Spellthief 4 / Enlightened Fist 7.
Granted, you won't have Full Attack Channeling, which means that this build is rather underpowered, unless you are willing to go to 13th level in Duskblade, in which case it would than be decent, although your character would be well into epic levels before their abilities really began to shine.

Essentially, this is a build best suited for Gestalt characters. Plain and simple.
In short, for bare-minimum Gestalt: [Tier A] Monk 1/Sorcerer 6/Enlightened Fist 10 [Tier B] Spellthief 4/Duskblade 13.
You get everything you could want, and then some. Granted, it is at the cusp of Epic Levels, but still, not quite.

If you don't care about the Hold Ray ability, and decide to specialize in Touch spells, then it is much simpler, hence:
Single-Class: Duskblade 13/Spellthief 7
Gestalt: 20 Levels in both. Done.

I hope this helps. This is, after all, my humble opinion. I think the fellow in the previous post had some good ideas too, what with the Ultimate Magus; I for one haven't dealt with that one as yet, so I have nothing to add on that topic.

As for the second part of your question... I don't think I understand what it is you are asking. Could you perhaps expound upon that, please?

[moritheil]

At least one exception-if you take the enlightened fist prestige class at level 7 or higher can use their hold ray to change the range of disintegrate and polar ray into touch range spells and thus can be used with arcane channeling. By 20th level you could have both hold ray and full attack arcane channeling thus allowing you to hit as many targets as you can in a full attack and each target would be hit by a disintegrate or a polar ray. Very nasty.

So duskblade13/enlightened fist7 for touch range ray attacks.

Nice catch.

You could go Ur-priest (or gestalt) to see Duskblades channeling Harm.

[Talionis]

"If so is there a better Domain for Gods Blood Spelltheft than Decay?" -- Talionis

As for the second part of your question... I don't think I understand what it is you are asking. Could you perhaps expound upon that, please?

God's Blood Spelltheft allows a Spellthief to cast cleric domain spells. Here is the online link to the Wizards article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606

So I guess I was just asking if there was a better Domain to grab that would grant good Touch Spells.

[Novawurmson]

If you're willing to indulge in a little bit of Pathfinder, the Magus can pick up the Close Range (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---magus-arcana/close-range-ex) Magus Arcana as early as level 3.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can go Bard 1/ Duskblade 13/ Sublime Chord 3 and Arcane Channel an Irresistible Dance with Whirlwind Attack. You'll probably want to use a Spiked Chain and (Draconic) Polymorph into a War Troll or other large humanoid-shaped creature.

[Suddo]

Its unfortunate that Duskblade 13 / Rainbow Servant 10 is 23 levels but its sooooo worth it. Spontaneously casting all cleric spells with the Duskblade's abilities would be awesome.