Mass Effect 3 [Spoilers!]

[Athaniar]

Finally, we have some Mass Effect 3 info! The latest issue of GameInformer has apparently revealed plenty of new information. Here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lblmw0ctIyR8PCrZK4YnEm3AXWqK_XPvxq2jdWiQylg/edit?hl=en&pli=1#) is a good compendium of everything available on Mass Effect 3 so far.

A summary of the new info (assuming it is correct, which it appears to be):


The game starts on Earth during Shepard's trial following the events of Arrival. Then the Reapers attack.
Liara, Ashley/Kaidan, and Garrus have been confirmed as returning squadmembers. Someone named James Sanders will also be in your squad, likely related to Kahlee Sanders.
Cerberus wants to kill Shepard. Unconfirmed if this is just for those who destroyed the base or Renegade ending too.
The game will feature a comic-book during new character creation, like Genesis (I assume, we still don't have it on PC...).
More freedom with character skills. They will branch several times instead of just at the end.
The weapon system will be like in ME2, but with weapons mods (changing both stats and appearance).
All classes will be able to use any weapon, but non-Soldiers can only carry a certain amount of weapons.
Also, multiple endings.
And no multiplayer.


This is going to be awesome. I like everything revealed so far.

Update Alert: High-Quality Scans! (http://gamingeverything.com/?p=3178&pid=1127)

[BladeofOblivion]

Heck. Yes.

I've been waiting for this game since before I ever heard of Mass Effect.

[GodGoblin]

Woo! Cant wait for this! Reminds me I need to finish my second playthrough of ME2 also...

And do we have any more info about James Sanders? Will he just be Kahlee Sanders replacment if she died during the suicide mission?

[Comet]

The game starts on Earth during Shepard's trial following the events of Arrival. Then the Reapers attack.


This is a bit eh. Arrival wasn't that great and my computer died a violent death while playing it, so I never got around to finishing the thing.

Making a DLC such an important plot point strikes me as a bit awkward. Hopefully those who didn't buy it will get a good summary of the events therein, and not just a "oh remember that one time when you did that thing? Good times!" bit of dialogue either.

Other than that, it all looks really good. Glad to see that Liara and Garrus will be back, now I know I can pull off my three-game marathon where I can use ME1 characters all the way through and romance Liara, since that is something I never got around to doing previously.

[ShinyRocks]

I hope Miranda comes back too...

FALL AND DIE!

[kamikasei]

And do we have any more info about James Sanders? Will he just be Kahlee Sanders replacment if she died during the suicide mission?
Kahlee Sanders hasn't appeared in the games. She's a character from the novels.

[Yana]

My hopes for Kal'Reeger as a squadmate are probably going to be unrequited, aren't they?

[LordShotGun]

I hope Miranda comes back too...

FALL AND DIE!

I don't get it. I understand why people may hate jack and dislike jacob due to lack of interesting personality flaws but Miranda is awesome!




More freedom with character skills. They will branch several times instead of just at the end.
The weapon system will be like in ME2, but with weapons mods (changing both stats and appearance).
All classes will be able to use any weapon, but non-Soldiers can only carry a certain amount of weapons.




All three of these are AWESOME!!! I really disliked how in ME2 the weapons were restricted both by class and play style. Weapon mods sound awesome as always, hell in any RPG more options are better.

Branching skills sound pretty good but I am worried about how well balanced they will be compared to ME2, for example how warp and overload were useful against EVERYTHING and things like AI hacking and cryo freeze were very situational.

[GodGoblin]

Kahlee Sanders hasn't appeared in the games. She's a character from the novels.

Ah I was getting confused wirk Kelly Chambers, my bad! :smallredface:

[Dienekes]

The game starts on Earth during Shepard's trial following the events of Arrival. Then the Reapers attack.

Ughh, why do you make dlcs pivotal to the game Bioware? I don't get the bloody things. This actually really annoys me. I mean, ME2 was a very fun game, but it wasn't too critical to the overarching Reaper plot, and now we find it doesn't even link the games together.


Liara, Ashley/Kaidan, and Garrus have been confirmed as returning squadmembers. Someone named James Sanders will also be in your squad, likely related to Kahlee Sanders.

Cool, Ash and Garrus are back. No Tali huh? I can just hear a thousand obsessed Tali fans scream. It amuses me greatly.


Cerberus wants to kill Shepard. Unconfirmed if this is just for those who destroyed the base or Renegade ending too.

A bit disappointing really. I was hoping that the Renegade option would be beneficial this time around, instead of just making every race hate you. If this is true for both then it seems to point toward paragon being the best solution again. Of course, it could just mean they get a super technology and then you have to take them down once and for all to get it.


The game will feature a comic-book during new character creation, like Genesis (I assume, we still don't have it on PC...).

Seems to me to be the logical way they're going to introduce the events of Arrival to us who didn't get it.


More freedom with character skills. They will branch several times instead of just at the end.

Cool concept, hope they pull it off in an engaging and balanced way. I somehow doubt the balanced bit but still cool.


The weapon system will be like in ME2, but with weapons mods (changing both stats and appearance).

That's really neat. Still hope they have a few more guns than basic ME2 did. Also, for some reason, I really hope my beautiful Revenant makes a return. It won't mind you, but I grew attached to that gun.


All classes will be able to use any weapon, but non-Soldiers can only carry a certain amount of weapons.

Hmm, not sure exactly how I feel about this. Just glancing at it, it seems a neat idea. In practice, unless all the guns are incredibly specialized, there will probably be 2 or 3 types of guns that are just better that everyone will take, so your Adept will be about as gun-ho as your Soldier. But on the other hand, this may mean that the Soldier gets more abilities that aren't directly related to slightly buffing your guns.


Also, multiple endings.

Already known but still fantastic. It'll be interesting to see if my Shep will utterly ruin the Galaxy and how.


And no multiplayer.

As expected and makes me happy.

[ShinyRocks]

I don't get it. I understand why people may hate jack and dislike jacob due to lack of interesting personality flaws but Miranda is awesome!


She sure is. 'Fall and die!' is what she says when she uses Slam, not what I want to happen to her.

[nhbdy]

Can't wait! Should be amazing: on the arrival deal, I like that they make the DLC significant, previously, it was as if it never happened, and sometimes it seems as if shepard would bring them up to his advantage, and of course bioware (in my opinion) does a good job of informing you of what you missed.

[GodGoblin]

Im tempted to get all the ME2 DLCs and do a full playthrough before ME3, but it depends if I can really be bothered lol Anyone else done this?

[HalfTangible]

Im tempted to get all the ME2 DLCs and do a full playthrough before ME3, but it depends if I can really be bothered lol Anyone else done this?

I think I'll do a playthrough with my old soldier, then use the comic thing to do a full vanguard run.

Tried replaying me1. Couldn't do it :(

[chaosapiant]

Im tempted to get all the ME2 DLCs and do a full playthrough before ME3, but it depends if I can really be bothered lol Anyone else done this?

I have. I've bought every piece of DLC, good or bad, and played 4 characters through to completion from the beginning of ME1, all ME1 DLC, and ME2 and it's DLC. I can't get enough of this game! I have a 5th character halfway through ME1 that I am working on also.

And yes, that means i've forced myself to beat the "meh...ok" Arrival DLC 4 times in a row.

[Zevox]

Nice news.


Liara, Ashley/Kaidan, and Garrus have been confirmed as returning squadmembers. Someone named James Sanders will also be in your squad, likely related to Kahlee Sanders.
Not bad, three returning and one new. Nice choices for the returning ones too, assuming they do more with Ash/Kaiden in this game the way they did with Garrus in ME2 and Liara in Lair of the Shadowbroker.

Now, just announce that Mordin and Jack are back and I'll be completely happy with the returning crew. :smallsmile: *fingers crossed*


More freedom with character skills. They will branch several times instead of just at the end.
As long as we don't revert to the "one points equals a one percent boost to these stats" of ME1, sounds good.


The weapon system will be like in ME2, but with weapons mods (changing both stats and appearance).
Nice. Good to know the weapon system from 2 will remain, given how much better it was than its predecessor.


All classes will be able to use any weapon, but non-Soldiers can only carry a certain amount of weapons.
Huh. Well, that's different. Guess that'll make this the first Mass Effect where I actually might use an Assault Rifle. Could be an interesting change.

Zevox

[Callos_DeTerran]

Seems to me to be the logical way they're going to introduce the events of Arrival to us who didn't get it.

Actually, having read the post the OP links to, it seems the comic is going to be like the same deal that the PS3 players got. You get the comic that explains past events while, at the same time, giving you what's considered the most important decisions so you don't have to play Mass Effect 2 (and 1? What all does the comic cover?) every time you want a new playthrough for Mass Effect 3.

I do find it curious that Tali isn't a confirmed companion from what's said so far and there's no hint of multiplayer. Maybe they did decide to put that in it's own game after all...

Not sure how I feel about the weapon carrying decision. What does the Soldier get to make up for the fact that only it got to use Assault Rifles from the very beginning? Being able to carry every weapon doesn't seem to mean much considering I didn't really deviate (or even want to deviate) from 1 or two weapons in Mass Effect 2 despite having the option too. This bit of news alarms me a little. And I'm wondering why Cerebrus would be after a Renegade Shepard who choose to keep the base...

Maybe the personal sent to take it apart got indoctrinated (shocker! :smalltongue:) or Cerebrus fell back to the old 'What has Science wrought?!' stand-by and the Illusive Man is pushing the blame on Shepard? Or maybe it has to do with TIM's cybernetic eyes...they always seemed a bit suspicious to me and, at first, I thought they were Reaper-tech.

[Mewtarthio]

And I'm wondering why Cerebrus would be after a Renegade Shepard who choose to keep the base...

I can think of a couple of possibilities:


The information was misinterpreted. I'd need to look at the original article for context, but perhaps GameInformer gave out information on the "default" game, which may assume you destroyed the base.
The Illusive Man is not as smart as he thinks. The Reaper base indoctrinated the scientists sent to work on it and directed them to launch a coup for control of the organization. The Illusive Man has been replaced by a Reaper program sending out fake orders (that's the downside of never meeting anyone in person, yes?), or possibly indoctrinated himself.
Cerberus studied the captured base and learned what they believe to be a key advantage in the fight against the Reapers. Shepard is no longer necessary, and the Illusive Man has deemed him too unpredictable to live.
Something happens in the opening act of the game that drives a wedge between Shepard and Cerberus.
The Illusive Man has been lying to everyone the whole time. He has his own secret agenda for the galaxy, and Shepard is not a part of his vision. I recall some people speculating that the Illusive Man might consider the birth of a human reaper to be a victory for humanity, for instance.
The Illusive Man dies or is overthrown. The new guy in charge doesn't like Shepard.

[Fawkes]

What I want to know is if they'll be catering to straight males.



I'm kidding, of course. What I really want to know is if they'll be catering to crazy (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/9/19/) people (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/4/1/).

[d12]

The game starts on Earth during Shepard's trial following the events of Arrival. Then the Reapers attack.

Haven't played Arrival (or Shadow Broker for that matter), so I don't really have any opinion either way.


Liara, Ashley/Kaidan, and Garrus have been confirmed as returning squadmembers. Someone named James Sanders will also be in your squad, likely related to Kahlee Sanders.

Yay, Ashley's back. ^_^ If they also had Wrex, Legion, and Jack that would be all the squad members I really care about seeing return as squad members. Liara's also good news, but I'm still getting over the characterization whiplash between the two games.


Cerberus wants to kill Shepard. Unconfirmed if this is just for those who destroyed the base or Renegade ending too.

The cynic in me says they'll be after you no matter what, quite possibly for no good reason. I destroyed the base on my renegon playthrough (which remains my only one so far..other stuff and all that) because I just don't trust TIM, so until/unless I do another run wherein I save the base it won't really make a difference.


The game will feature a comic-book during new character creation, like Genesis (I assume, we still don't have it on PC...).

Can I skip it? I already know what's going on.


More freedom with character skills. They will branch several times instead of just at the end.

Sounds like it might be interesting.


The weapon system will be like in ME2, but with weapons mods (changing both stats and appearance).

Sort of depends on what is meant by that. If it means that once again there are going to be something like 3 assault rifles, 2 shotguns, etc, one of which has a big "this one is just better, stupid" sign hanging from it, then that's a bit underwhelming. Something in me also fears weapon mods will work this way too. I'm sort of resigned to them probably keeping the "lol ammo" and just hoping it's possible to mod the heat system back in or at the very least modify the mag size and just roleplay the idea of not standing on the trigger. Getting rid of the ridiculous "special ammunition is a power" thing would be nice too, but I'm not confident in that happening.


All classes will be able to use any weapon, but non-Soldiers can only carry a certain amount of weapons.

I don't have any particular problems with this. I generally use assault rifles all the time anyway though, and sometimes switch over to snipers (more frequently in ME1 though, because I love the sound they make).


Also, multiple endings.

I should hope so. I could understand many of the restrictions imposed in the first two games because of the need to avoid combinatorial explosions, but there isn't really much reason to hold out now (apart from laziness anyway).


And no multiplayer.

Hallelujah.

[Illieas]

wait...did they just tart up ashley? really? she is military women. that damn better be her off duty dress and she better not be in combat with that. it was already irking me when when miranda and jack were not wearing armor and kinda wondered why miranda didn't bun up her hair.

[ShinyRocks]

As long as we don't revert to the "one points equals a one percent boost to these stats" of ME1, sounds good.


Indeed. But equally I really don't like the 'save up your points' levelling in ME2. Especially when I end up with a point left over, taunting me, with nothing to spend it on. Having to buy, say, a rank 2 and a rank 3 just to use my points cleanly, rather than buying the rank 4 and then having a 'dead' point, really irks.

[Cristo Meyers]

Now, just announce that Mordin and Jack are back and I'll be completely happy with the returning crew. :smallsmile: *fingers crossed*


I've seen Mordin mentioned as returning on other sites. Jack, however, I've heard nothing about.



The cynic in me says they'll be after you no matter what, quite possibly for no good reason. I destroyed the base on my renegon playthrough (which remains my only one so far..other stuff and all that) because I just don't trust TIM, so until/unless I do another run wherein I save the base it won't really make a difference.

If you kept the base then maybe TIM decides that Shepard is now a liability that needs to be destroyed. After all, he has Reaper Tech now, how could anything stand up to Cererbus?



Hallelujah.

Ditto. Save the multiplayer for a multiplayer game.

[Eliirae]

I'm hoping Tali returns as well (No, I'm not a raving Tali lunatic like those others on the bioware forums. Please don't murder me.) It seems likely since in ME2 femshep could romance Garrus, so why not bring back Tali for the malesheps?

Curse you bioware and making me want to buy the Arrival DLC just so I can know what's going on without having to read a comic!

[Cristo Meyers]

I'd say Tali returning in some fashion is pretty much a given and that her as a party member is incredibly likely. The list of possibly returning characters is hardly exhaustive.

[Yana]

You could always go look at the Mass Effect 2 thread. I'm fairly certain that Arrival was discussed in depth.

Just a suggestion.

[chiasaur11]

Alright.

Going to be killing so many Batarians, husks, and Cerberus agents.

So many.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Bloody hell...unless my Game Informer shows up within the next few days, it'll mean my subscription ended, literally, just before the issue I would have most wanted to read. x.x Anyone have images from the article?

[Dhavaer]

Images:

Ashley (http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8382/screenshot20110408at121.png)
Batarian Husk? (http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/freedan_the_eternal/Snapshot_20110407_2.jpg)
Spidery husk-thing (http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/freedan_the_eternal/Snapshot_20110407_3.jpg)
Reaper flying over city (http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/freedan_the_eternal/Snapshot_20110407_4.jpg)
Sheploo, Liara & Kaidan (http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/freedan_the_eternal/Snapshot_20110408.jpg)

[Callos_DeTerran]

...I don't think that spidery thing is a husk. It almost looks like...an armed rachni warrior. o.o

[Mewtarthio]

Ashley (http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8382/screenshot20110408at121.png)

:confused: That's Ashley? Are you sure about that?

[memnarch]

...I don't think that spidery thing is a husk. It almost looks like...an armed rachni warrior. o.o

I'd agree with this. We did get a message about the rachni being willing to help out if I remember right.

[chiasaur11]

I'd agree with this. We did get a message about the rachni being willing to help out if I remember right.

It looks like a Rachni husk.

And yeah, caption says that's Ash.

[VanBuren]

:confused: That's Ashley? Are you sure about that?

Her name is on the list to the right of the picture. The picture itself may not be her.

[Athaniar]

:confused: That's Ashley? Are you sure about that?
The picture caption does say "Ashley in Mass Effect 3", and the face is similar. Also, hadn't seen that group pic before. Ash and Kaidan both wear blue, interesting, and Liara still uses her (pretty nice) Lair of the Shadow Broker armor.

[Illieas]

:confused: That's Ashley? Are you sure about that?

yes it is ashley but she seems to be sporting miranda's hair and body.

as for the spider husk. I would wager it is old prothean husk. i recall the prothean general was very spidery

[memnarch]

yes it is ashley but she seems to be sporting miranda's hair and body.

as for the spider husk. I would wager it is old prothean husk. i recall the prothean collector general was very spidery

Hardly protheans anymore.... :smallfrown:

[chiasaur11]

It's a Rachni.

Looks almost identical, Reapers have used them before, ect ect.

[Dienekes]

It's a Rachni.

Looks almost identical, Reapers have used them before, ect ect.

Hmmm, maybe saving the Rachni just ends up with them being used by the Reapers to cause greater destruction.

This would please me immensely.

[Ailurus]

The picture caption does say "Ashley in Mass Effect 3", and the face is similar. Also, hadn't seen that group pic before. Ash and Kaidan both wear blue, interesting, and Liara still uses her (pretty nice) Lair of the Shadow Broker armor.

Face is similar, yes, but the hair style, hair color and skin tones are all way off. Given that the ME2 model was all but identical to the ME1 model in those respects, I'd be very surprised if that is the final version of Ash. Guess there's been major advances in cosmetic surgery in the ME universe.

[Zevox]

Images:

Ashley (http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8382/screenshot20110408at121.png)
*straining to read text of poor-quality image* What's that second list of character names in there? Best I can get is:

"Characters <words I cannot read> during our <demo?> (possibly playable):
Wrex
Mordin
Legion
Anderson"

Question being what the part I can't read says, and what that would mean for the chances of them being playable. Were they just mentioned? Did they show up in-game (assuming I got the "demo" part right)? If they did, in what fashion? Since my favorite character in the series, Mordin, is on that list, I'm quite curious about this now.

Zevox

[chiasaur11]

*straining to read text of poor-quality image* What's that second list of character names in there? Best I can get is:

"Characters <words I cannot read> during our <demo?> (possibly playable):
Wrex
Mordin
Legion
Anderson"

Question being what the part I can't read says, and what that would mean for the chances of them being playable. Were they just mentioned? Did they show up in-game (assuming I got the "demo" part right)? If they did, in what fashion? Since my favorite character in the series, Mordin, is on that list, I'm quite curious about this now.

Zevox

Mordin, Wrex, Legion, and Anderson are confirmed to return, but maybe not as party members.

[Zevox]

Mordin, Wrex, Legion, and Anderson are confirmed to return, but maybe not as party members.
Yeah, I got that idea, I'm wondering if the statement provides any better idea of the odds of them being party members than just "possibly" with no basis attached.

Zevox

[Zorg]

Sheploo, Liara & Kaidan (http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/freedan_the_eternal/Snapshot_20110408.jpg)

Yay! Aside from getting Shep wrong (a dude? WTF? :smalltongue:) that's my ideal lineup there :smallbiggrin:

[kamikasei]

"Characters <words I cannot read> during our <demo?> (possibly playable):
"Characters we saw or heard during our demo (possibly playable):".

[Dinner Thief]

Everything sounds epic so far, except for the fact that some of the best characters are in a "kinda maybe going to be in this" situation. I will be thoroughly disappointed if tali, mordin and grunt are not party members again.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Or maybe it has to do with TIM's cybernetic eyes...they always seemed a bit suspicious to me and, at first, I thought they were Reaper-tech.

Um well, comic spoilers:

The Illusive Man's eyes are Reaper Tech. He got captured by the Turians (led by Saren's brother) and experimented on after touching one of the husk-making dragon's teeth on Shanxi.

Husks are apparently all remote controlled by the Dragon's tooth. Jack Harper (TIM) can hear the commands but (appears so far) to not be compelled to obey them.

So Cerberus' experiments with Husks in the game and novels are either a continuation of a Taurian super soldier project or TIM's attempt to create someone else like him, knowing it can be done but failing completly again and again.

[Mewtarthio]

They probably just said "may or may not be playable" to cover all their bases. If they simply said "Mordin is in," people might assume he's a squad member again. The big giveaway is putting Anderson in that list, even though there's little reason to think he would be a PC (though that would be awesome).


Um well, comic spoilers:

The Illusive Man's eyes are Reaper Tech. He got captured by the Turians (led by Saren's brother) and experimented on after touching one of the husk-making dragon's teeth on Shanxi.

Husks are apparently all remote controlled by the Dragon's tooth. Jack Harper (TIM) can hear the commands but (appears so far) to not be compelled to obey them.

So Cerberus' experiments with Husks in the game and novels are either a continuation of a Taurian super soldier project or TIM's attempt to create someone else like him, knowing it can be done but failing completly again and again.

There's no way that could backfire horribly on everyone.

[Sholos]

So they're going to keep the extremely limited ammo system that made any of the higher difficulties even more annoying to play? I am disappoint. The weapon system of the first game was by far better than the second.

[Zevox]

So they're going to keep the extremely limited ammo system that made any of the higher difficulties even more annoying to play? I am disappoint. The weapon system of the first game was by far better than the second.
They didn't say anything about the ammo system, only the weapon system. Which, by making the weapons strong against different defenses and differentiating each different weapon even within each type, was by far better in the second game than in the first.

Zevox

[The Rose Dragon]

The weapon system of the first game was by far better than the second.

A lot of people disagree, it seems. I certainly do.

[Callos_DeTerran]

You know...it didn't really strike me until I looked at the Mass Effect 3 picture for Ashley again, but the 'confirmed playable' characters also mentions '(to some extent)' right after it. It makes me wonder if Bioware isn't going to have your party change over-all like getting Liara as a playable character in the end-game or something when her duties as the Shadow Broker aren't as important to stopping the Reapers but will be unavailable for most of the game.

The idea of a fluid and changing party, perhaps influenced by what allies you have access too, does appeal to me...

[HalfTangible]

So they're going to keep the extremely limited ammo system that made any of the higher difficulties even more annoying to play? I am disappoint. The weapon system of the first game was by far better than the second.
The only reason people think that is because they tried to retcon it in the second game with an explanation that was a huge stretch at best.

I prove it thus: The first game didn't even HAVE an ammo system :smalltongue:

[Mewtarthio]

A lot of people disagree, it seems. I certainly do.

Ammo system? I'll give you that. Weapon system? How on earth is the weapon system from the first game better than the one from the second? Okay, the second had those annoying mineral requirements to upgrade weapons, but even that's not as annoying as the clunky, inventory-clogging system they had in the first game.

[Xondoure]

Didn't the devs already poke fun at the fans for being worried about your ME2 squad returning?

[d12]

So they're going to keep the extremely limited ammo system that made any of the higher difficulties even more annoying to play? I am disappoint. The weapon system of the first game was by far better than the second.

Ammunition is one of my really big worries too. Even going to a hybrid heat/heatsink system would be fine for me though. And as I said before, get rid of "special ammunition is a power", because it doesn't make sense. I would hope that if weapon mods are returning in some form (and assuming they don't get lazy with it), special ammo would be back as well, but who can say?

On balance I also overall prefer how weapons worked in the first game (depending on what exactly we're talking about), with the possible exception of accuracy not taking forever to recover in ME2 (at least compared to early ME1 weapons), though in practice I never had a ton of problems with it in ME1, possibly because I generally don't play on hardcore+, so it's not a huge issue for me personally. As for different weapons being more effective against different defenses, I never really noticed any major differences. I sort of like the way armor works in both of them, but in ME2 I never quite shook the feeling that armor (and even health) didn't really mean anything.

As far as inventory goes, the only real problem I had with it in the first game was that they forgot to organize it. Aside from that I didn't see any real call for getting rid of it entirely, and ME2 always sort of felt kind of hollow to me, partially because of its omission.

[Closet_Skeleton]

And as I said before, get rid of "special ammunition is a power", because it doesn't make sense.

It made for a far better method for changing ammo types than in the original.

The problem with the original's upgrade system was that they gave you so many worthless upgrades that you quickly ceased to care and started to dread the moments where you have to go back to that clogged inventory to swap all the VIIs for VIIIs.

None of the decent upgrades (snowblind for shotguns and explosive for sniper rifles) show up until Virmire and then they're obvious no brainers that make the choice pointless.

[d12]

It made for a far better method for changing ammo types than in the original.

More convenient, perhaps (well, unless you want to use a type that your class somehow doesn't know how to manifest through, what, the power of wishful thinking?), but I wouldn't consider it 'better', especially given all the questions it would seem to raise about how exactly the whole thing works. In the first game the concept is easy enough: you're putting a different metal block into the gun, and you obviously can't use it if you don't have it, fine, no problems. But how exactly does it work in ME2? It's evidently a function of your class, so how exactly do you do that? Is there some mystical secret to warp ammunition that only crazy people can learn (unless you help them solve their daddy issues, in which case they break the rules and teach you)? The only way I can think of for it to make any sense is if it's a function of the gun itself, but that just makes it even worse. Can only crazy people see the 'warp' button? Not to mention the issue of how exactly you can 'evolve' said functionality just by virtue of your class. You get the idea.

[HalfTangible]

More convenient, perhaps (well, unless you want to use a type that your class somehow doesn't know how to manifest through, what, the power of wishful thinking?), but I wouldn't consider it 'better', especially given all the questions it would seem to raise about how exactly the whole thing works. In the first game the concept is easy enough: you're putting a different metal block into the gun, and you obviously can't use it if you don't have it, fine, no problems. But how exactly does it work in ME2? It's evidently a function of your class, so how exactly do you do that? Is there some mystical secret to warp ammunition that only crazy people can learn (unless you help them solve their daddy issues, in which case they break the rules and teach you)? The only way I can think of for it to make any sense is if it's a function of the gun itself, but that just makes it even worse. Can only crazy people see the 'warp' button? Not to mention the issue of how exactly you can 'evolve' said functionality just by virtue of your class. You get the idea.

Maybe it's a special module attached to the gun that requires a code to activate, hence why whoever is using the power has to hit some buttons to activate it? And nobody but the specific class that uses it can properly fix any problems it might have?

[Arbitrarity]

Actually, it's fairly explicable.

The way bullets work in ME is that they slice a chip off a large block and hyperaccelerate it. Shredder ammo, for example, is based on making "hollow point" chips.
Simply consider the effects as part of the design of how the chips are sliced and processed. If we presume the blocks to be of a similar sort, since modifying/swapping them in combat would be... difficult, we can instead presume some sort of molecular level restructuring of chips, based off tech similar to omni-tools. Thus, cryo ammo, inferno ammo, etc. are based on complex programming and additions ("cooling lasers" from the cryo ammo description) in weaponry, that is known or found pretty much solely in the military. Certain people may have come up with custom "mixes" or programs to create components that produce varying effects. In ME1, you "find" such programs in the form of ammo upgrades, but they're fundamentally just tools that modify chips in some way (i.e. applies thermite paste to chips before firing)

[Closet_Skeleton]

Warp ammo is the most logical one. Its using biotic powers to make bullets super. It has nothing to do with the gun itself.

[d12]

Maybe it's a special module attached to the gun that requires a code to activate, hence why whoever is using the power has to hit some buttons to activate it? And nobody but the specific class that uses it can properly fix any problems it might have?

Doesn't that seem needlessly convoluted for something you'd be doing in the middle of a firefight? Besides, especially if you were a military, wouldn't you want everyone to be able to use any augmented type possible, to be able to adapt to as many situations as possible?


Warp ammo is the most logical one. Its using biotic powers to make bullets super. It has nothing to do with the gun itself.

I was mostly using it as an example since I remember it being among the most restricted types in the game. Interestingly, I forgot that Jack can't even use it until you do her daddy-issues mission. Even then, how can you learn it as a non-biotic-using class?


Actually, it's fairly explicable.

The way bullets work in ME is that they slice a chip off a large block and hyperaccelerate it. Shredder ammo, for example, is based on making "hollow point" chips.
Simply consider the effects as part of the design of how the chips are sliced and processed. If we presume the blocks to be of a similar sort, since modifying/swapping them in combat would be... difficult, we can instead presume some sort of molecular level restructuring of chips, based off tech similar to omni-tools. Thus, cryo ammo, inferno ammo, etc. are based on complex programming and additions ("cooling lasers" from the cryo ammo description) in weaponry, that is known or found pretty much solely in the military. Certain people may have come up with custom "mixes" or programs to create components that produce varying effects. In ME1, you "find" such programs in the form of ammo upgrades, but they're fundamentally just tools that modify chips in some way (i.e. applies thermite paste to chips before firing)

I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying, but if these are indeed some sort of molecular restructuring, then what precludes anybody from using it? I would think such things would be published and considered a pretty elementary component of standard training regimens and whatnot.

[Dienekes]

On ammo: can't the same thing be said of a lot of powers in ME2?

Tactical Cloak: My class pushes a button and goes invisible. This isn't him, he's still there. This is a cool new tech. Why don't all the Shepard's have that? Seriously, it would be very useful for all of them.

Tech Armor: Same button, but now becomes a tank. Again, why not give it to everyone, hell Miranda could use it so she doesn't walk around without armor the entire time.

Tech Drone: Send out a drone, they appear to be cheap and disposable and very useful little things. It'd be great to give them to a lot of my soldiers, an efficient and easy way of increasing numbers of units in the field.

You can either get hung up on it or let it go. Or you can rationalize it away: using the advanced ammos can be dangerous to the gun and require special training. Some Shepard's have that training some Shepard's don't.

[Zevox]

Even then, how can you learn it as a non-biotic-using class?
You could ask the same about Slam or Reave. That's a problem with loyalty powers in general, not ammo powers.

Zevox

[Closet_Skeleton]

You could ask the same about Slam or Reave. That's a problem with loyalty powers in general, not ammo powers.

Zevox

Or the one that requires you to be a Geth.

[HalfTangible]

Doesn't that seem needlessly convoluted for something you'd be doing in the middle of a firefight? Besides, especially if you were a military, wouldn't you want everyone to be able to use any augmented type possible, to be able to adapt to as many situations as possible?I worked with the fact that when shepard activates an ammo power he hits some buttons before the power actually shows up on the weapon. Ridiculous? Convuluted? Maybe. But i didn't make shepard hit buttons to turn on fire bullets. :smalltongue:

You'd want everybody on YOUR team to use them, but in this theory, they're extremely specialized modules, and if anything were to happen to render them dangerous or inoperable the only person who would know what to do would be the user or designer of said module and i sincerely doubt a military scientist who could make modules like that would be in the middle of a firefight to help. :smalltongue:


I was mostly using it as an example since I remember it being among the most restricted types in the game. Interestingly, I forgot that Jack can't even use it until you do her daddy-issues mission. Even then, how can you learn it as a non-biotic-using class?It has been established as canon that shepard has element zero nodes in his body. If you're not a biotic, then it can be assumed that Shepard can't use them normally because he doesn't have an implant or just never learned.

[d12]

You could ask the same about Slam or Reave. That's a problem with loyalty powers in general, not ammo powers.

Zevox


Or the one that requires you to be a Geth.


That's true. I was talking about ammo powers specifically, though the entire bonus loyalty powers issue can get somewhat problematic.

Edit: I should probably be fair and say that this also extends to the bonus talents from ME1 as well, since I don't think you actually have a biotic amp or omni-tool equipped if you take a biotic or tech bonus talent. :smalltongue:


On ammo: can't the same thing be said of a lot of powers in ME2?

Tactical Cloak: My class pushes a button and goes invisible. This isn't him, he's still there. This is a cool new tech. Why don't all the Shepard's have that? Seriously, it would be very useful for all of them.

Tech Armor: Same button, but now becomes a tank. Again, why not give it to everyone, hell Miranda could use it so she doesn't walk around without armor the entire time.

Tech Drone: Send out a drone, they appear to be cheap and disposable and very useful little things. It'd be great to give them to a lot of my soldiers, an efficient and easy way of increasing numbers of units in the field.

For the most part, yeah, sort of (though I don't know the particulars of how some of them are explained). If it's something that doesn't really require any form of special training that would be particularly associated with your class (such as biotics or some tech skills that would require knowing some technical minutia (for instance, AI hacking isn't something I'd expect a soldier to be adept at)..technically decrypting falls under that too, but I was willing to let that one go in order to get away from the "always need a rogue" trope), then such restrictions seem a bit metagame-ish.


I worked with the fact that when shepard activates an ammo power he hits some buttons before the power actually shows up on the weapon. Ridiculous? Convuluted? Maybe. But i didn't make shepard hit buttons to turn on fire bullets. :smalltongue:

The alternative seems to be the power of wishful thinking. :smalltongue: "It would be great if I had some incendiary rounds right now." *it is so*


You'd want everybody on YOUR team to use them, but in this theory, they're extremely specialized modules, and if anything were to happen to render them dangerous or inoperable the only person who would know what to do would be the user or designer of said module and i sincerely doubt a military scientist who could make modules like that would be in the middle of a firefight to help. :smalltongue:

Then send the gun to maintenance after the encounter so they can fix it up? I would figure these components would be somewhat standardized so that they could be repaired by anyone with proper training. I suppose you could argue that some manufacturers could choose to be greedy pigs about who gets to train on their stuff, but requiring any maintenance to be conducted by the guy who made that particular part wouldn't seem very efficient.


It has been established as canon that shepard has element zero nodes in his body. If you're not a biotic, then it can be assumed that Shepard can't use them normally because he doesn't have an implant or just never learned.

It has? Must not have seen that bit (of course, I haven't read any of the books or comics or whatnot, so if it's covered there then I haven't seen it). And if Shepard has never had any training or an implant to properly use any such biotic ability he may or may not have (I forget if element zero necessarily implies biotic potential), then why would he suddenly be able to coat rounds from his weapon in biotic stuff?

[Callos_DeTerran]

For the most part, yeah, sort of (though I don't know the particulars of how some of them are explained). If it's something that doesn't really require any form of special training that would be particularly associated with your class (such as biotics or some tech skills that would require knowing some technical minutia (for instance, AI hacking isn't something I'd expect a soldier to be adept at)..technically decrypting falls under that too, but I was willing to let that one go in order to get away from the "always need a rogue" trope), then such restrictions seem a bit metagame-ish.

Well there's a difference (using the drone as an example) between learning how to create and control a drone in a quiet setting, quite different to create and control one in an active fire-fight without the proper training that not all Shepard's have. Same might be able to be said for Tech Armor, we don't really know what goes into maintaining that after the button is pressed. It could be an exorbitantly expense piece of tech that Cerberus had to implant into Shepard during his/her reviving for Shepard to be able to do that, assuming that Shepard had the technical know how that Cerberus believed he/she could use it. If nothing else, that'd explain why you don't see too many mercenaries with tech armor. Unwilling to pay for it, unwilling to have it implanted in to them, don't have the know-how to use it.

.....I got nothing on Tactical cloak though, except it's a piece of reverse-engineered implant-technology from the geth that Cerberus only figures would benefit a Shepard that has need to turn invisible to evade notice (snipers for example).



Then send the gun to maintenance after the encounter so they can fix it up? I would figure these components would be somewhat standardized so that they could be repaired by anyone with proper training. I suppose you could argue that some manufacturers could choose to be greedy pigs about who gets to train on their stuff, but requiring any maintenance to be conducted by the guy who made that particular part wouldn't seem very efficient.

It doesn't need to be efficient, it just needs the corporations to like having money. Which..I've yet to see the corporation that doesn't like getting more money, especially if means customers will have to keep coming back for more and more maintenance.


It has? Must not have seen that bit (of course, I haven't read any of the books or comics or whatnot, so if it's covered there then I haven't seen it). And if Shepard has never had any training or an implant to properly use any such biotic ability he may or may not have (I forget if element zero necessarily implies biotic potential), then why would he suddenly be able to coat rounds from his weapon in biotic stuff?

It's possible that Shepard DOES have an amp to avoid accidental discharges of biotic ability (like Kaiden snapping a man's neck), more importantly (for the biotic training powers) it's not like Shepard doesn't have time to practice and train with those abilities. Even if it doesn't seem like it to us, travel still does take time in the Mass Effect-verse and floating between missions is the perfect time to practice coating your bullets in biotic stuff with the crazy woman from the hold. :smalltongue:

[d12]

*stuff about tactical cloak and combat drone and the like*

That's also true. Using a drone may require keeping track of its overall status and some form of direction. Doing so effectively in combat situations might be covered in Tech School or the like, whereas a soldier would be a lot more interested in tracking targets, shooting things, and being tough to kill; and an adept would be more interested in controlling and throwing around his biotics. I don't have a problem with making such things class-specific if there's some kind of justification that seems somewhat reasonable, and as I said before, I'm not really clear on how some of them are explained.


It doesn't need to be efficient, it just needs the corporations to like having money. Which..I've yet to see the corporation that doesn't like getting more money, especially if means customers will have to keep coming back for more and more maintenance.

That is extremely true, but they have to be careful not to make the process too arduous or demanding, or else people might start shopping elsewhere. Unless collusion and the like aren't illegal or regulators are in their pocket, which could very well be the case. I don't know if they ever establish how corporate law works in either Council space or the Terminus Systems, outside of the cutthroat, gray-area-at-best activities on Noveria, and if I remember right, they explicitly say that they can get away with what they do there because they aren't actually in Council space.


It's possible that Shepard DOES have an amp to avoid accidental discharges of biotic ability (like Kaiden snapping a man's neck), more importantly (for the biotic training powers) it's not like Shepard doesn't have time to practice and train with those abilities. Even if it doesn't seem like it to us, travel still does take time in the Mass Effect-verse and floating between missions is the perfect time to practice coating your bullets in biotic stuff with the crazy woman from the hold. :smalltongue:

Well, if I remember right, Kaiden's incident was due to him being really pissed off at the time (I don't find him very interesting, but I do pay attention sometimes :smallbiggrin:), sort of like if somebody were to anger you to the point that you just punched them. An implant just to serve the purposes of stopping any accidental discharge of possible biotic power in potential biotic candidates who haven't actually been trained wouldn't seem unreasonable, if such a thing can be done. It would also seem to impede being able to pull off biotic tricks later on though, and since you still haven't had any training, even disconnecting said implant wouldn't seem like it would do much good. Of course, they don't really go into how long it takes to learn any given biotic skills and not a whole lot of context is given regarding how much time elapses over the course of the game. Again, if it can be justified and it makes enough sense, I don't have any particular problem with it.

Apparently I shouldn't have used warp ammo as my example...

Anyway, long story short, the key phrase is "internal consistency", and the idea of specialized/augmented ammunition being a power just violates any sense of that too much for my taste. If somebody doesn't have a problem with it, then that's cool, but I reserve the right to call it ridiculous. And this thread is supposed to be about Mass Effect 3 anyway, which I actually am cautiously interested in. :smalltongue:

[Arbitrarity]

I'd call it "sophisticated calibration". I mean, what's to stop anyone from using an Omni-tool to make fire and use Incinerate?
Presumably a similar level of understanding is needed to calibrate whatever bizarre modules are in weapons to let them fire Incendiary ammo. Probably neither is super complicated, but perhaps a more complete understanding of the chemistry involved (or studying) lets you create a more effective burn.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm conflicted now. I specifically killed off Ashley to have no guilty feelings about romancing Jack, but now I'm really thinking about going back and romancing one of the originals and sticking with them, since it seems like there's gonna be a big payoff with that. I'm terrible. :smallsigh:

[Dienekes]

I'm conflicted now. I specifically killed off Ashley to have no guilty feelings about romancing Jack, but now I'm really thinking about going back and romancing one of the originals and sticking with them, since it seems like there's gonna be a big payoff with that. I'm terrible. :smallsigh:

Heh, killed a chick off so you could start dating another. I didn't know you had it in you Pally.

[chiasaur11]

Heh, killed a chick off so you could start dating another. I didn't know you had it in you Pally.

And Jack?

Takes guts. More guts than brains, even.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Heh, killed a chick off so you could start dating another. I didn't know you had it in you Pally.

Have you forgotten what an incorrigable spoiler seeker and metagamer I can be? :smallamused:

[Zevox]

Have you forgotten what an incorrigable spoiler seeker and metagamer I can be? :smallamused:
I suspect he's referring to the fact that deliberately killing a girl in order to start dating another one is rather obviously more evil than simply cheating on her in the first place. :smalltongue:

Zevox

[HalfTangible]

Then send the gun to maintenance after the encounter so they can fix it up? I would figure these components would be somewhat standardized so that they could be repaired by anyone with proper training. I suppose you could argue that some manufacturers could choose to be greedy pigs about who gets to train on their stuff, but requiring any maintenance to be conducted by the guy who made that particular part wouldn't seem very efficient.



It has? Must not have seen that bit (of course, I haven't read any of the books or comics or whatnot, so if it's covered there then I haven't seen it). And if Shepard has never had any training or an implant to properly use any such biotic ability he may or may not have (I forget if element zero necessarily implies biotic potential), then why would he suddenly be able to coat rounds from his weapon in biotic stuff?

When I say malfunction, I do not JUST mean weapon jams. I mean the weapon explodes, or becomes inoperable. There is no reason to standardize modules that would be best used in the hands of commandos such as Shepard.

Furthermore, I'm presuming these modules would be a fairly specialized field of maintenance, and not something they teach every single soldier. In addition, if they were kept individual it would be more difficult to use one from a captured soldier.

It wouldn't be inconveinient if soldiers who used the modules (like Shepard) were taught how to make them.

Sorry for incoherence, doing from phone.

[Dienekes]

Have you forgotten what an incorrigable spoiler seeker and metagamer I can be? :smallamused:

Let's see if I can pull that back from my memory.

"DUDE! What did we just talk about!?!"

Suddenly it makes sense to me.

[d12]

I'm conflicted now. I specifically killed off Ashley to have no guilty feelings about romancing Jack, but now I'm really thinking about going back and romancing one of the originals and sticking with them, since it seems like there's gonna be a big payoff with that. I'm terrible. :smallsigh:

I never kill Ashley. :smallbiggrin: Probably about even with regard to whether I pick her or Liara in ME1. Didn't try for a relationship with anyone in my sole ME2 playthrough thus far because I didn't want to cheat on my LI from 1 (who just happened to be Liara with this run, actually). Of the three options in ME2 I find Jack the most interesting--I like living dangerously I suppose. :smalltongue: I never really heard how well exactly they pull off the development of the relationship though. I don't have anything in particular against Miranda; I just don't think she's as interesting. And Tali--well, there's nothing wrong with her. I like her by virtue of being the tech wizard from ME1 who's from a somewhat interesting species with awesome accents, but her creepy, obsessive fanboys make me have second thoughts.


When I say malfunction, I do not JUST mean weapon jams. I mean the weapon explodes, or becomes inoperable. There is no reason to standardize modules that would be best used in the hands of commandos such as Shepard.

If the weapon explodes, you have bigger problems than worrying about repairing it when you get back to the ship. And why not standardize, even if it's mostly meant for special ops? Interchangeable parts are a good idea overall. A tech wizard might make some custom modifications I suppose ("the heat cutoff safety for this model was built a little too conservatively" or "this model was overengineered a bit, so it doesn't really operate at full-full capacity, so I tweaked it to get some more muzzle velocity" or the like), which, yes, would generally not be expected to survive a catastrophic malfunction, but what about non-tech-wizard classes that get augmented ammunition types as a class feature?


Sorry for incoherence, doing from phone.

This disagreement isn't that important, dude. :smallbiggrin: I'm not a natural forumer, so this may be the most protracted discussion I've had on any forum ever. :smalltongue:

[Mewtarthio]

Re: Ammunition as powers:

This is Shepard we're talking about. An ancient artifact once forced the experience of an entire galactic apocalypse into Shepard's mind. The Commander got a bit of a headache. Shepard can break Elder God-induced mind control by speaking very firmly. The Incendiary Ammo power isn't caused by some sort of special bullets. It's caused by Shepard's pure rage channeled into every shot Shepard fires!


I never kill Ashley. :smallbiggrin: Probably about even with regard to whether I pick her or Liara in ME1. Didn't try for a relationship with anyone in my sole ME2 playthrough thus far because I didn't want to cheat on my LI from 1 (who just happened to be Liara with this run, actually).

It's not cheating when you get railroaded into ending the relationship. :smalltongue:

[stainboy]

Ammo powers probably went into ME2 very late in development. There are tons of problems with them:

-Can't swap ammo while on cooldown from Adrenaline Rush / TacCloak.

-Squadmates' ammo isn't recorded in the save file. Neither is ammo Shepard gets from a squad ammo power.

-Squadmates will automatically apply squad ammo over your ammo, so every time you reload you have to manually put up their ammo, then put up yours.

-Originally two squadmates with squad ammo would constantly spam their ammo powers, placing both of them on permanent cooldown. (This was patched sometime between Overlord and Shadow Broker.)

-Ammo bonus damage is applied before weapon damage, so if you fire AP ammo at an enemy with 1 shields, 200 health, the AP ammo does nothing. This is counterintuitive and there's no way to communicate it in-game.



So the ammo powers don't work very well, and I doubt they survive into ME3 without major changes.

[HalfTangible]

-Squadmates' ammo isn't recorded in the save file. Neither is ammo Shepard gets from a squad ammo power.

Isn't that how team powers work anyway?

[Closet_Skeleton]

I suspect he's referring to the fact that deliberately killing a girl in order to start dating another one is rather obviously more evil than simply cheating on her in the first place. :smalltongue:

Zevox

Well I let Kaiden die after he refused to have a threesome with me and Liara and still ended up mostly Paragon. :smallbiggrin:

[thorgrim29]

The man didn't want a threesome with Shep and Liara, he obviously had no will to live anyways:smallbiggrin:

[memnarch]

Well I let Kaiden die after he refused to have a threesome with me and Liara and still ended up mostly Paragon. :smallbiggrin:

The man didn't want a threesome with Shep and Liara, he obviously had no will to live anyways:smallbiggrin:

Your argument is invalid as neither human wants to have a threeway with Shepard.

[Dienekes]

Your argument is invalid as neither human wants to have a threeway with Shepard.

Sure, but Ash has the "I'm not into girls" excuse. Kaidan isn't so lucky.

Also, the boys bland as all hell.

[Toastkart]

When I say malfunction, I do not JUST mean weapon jams. I mean the weapon explodes, or becomes inoperable. There is no reason to standardize modules that would be best used in the hands of commandos such as Shepard.

Furthermore, I'm presuming these modules would be a fairly specialized field of maintenance, and not something they teach every single soldier. In addition, if they were kept individual it would be more difficult to use one from a captured soldier.

It wouldn't be inconveinient if soldiers who used the modules (like Shepard) were taught how to make them.

Sorry for incoherence, doing from phone.

The codex from me1 has this to say about upgrades:


The development of practical minifacturing omni-tools allows modern militaries a great deal of flexibility in equipment load-outs. A vast number of field modification kits, or "upgrades", are available for common equipment such as weapons, armor, omni-tools, biotic amps, and even grenades.

An upgrade kit typically consists of less than a dozen unique parts and an optical storage disc. When loaded into an omni-tool, the OSD provides all technical specifications required to manufacture the tool and additional parts necessary to install the upgrade onto another piece of equipment. Assembly is typically modular, and installation can be completed in less than a minute.

Since omni-tools are designed to use common battlefield salvage materials such as plastics, ceramics, and light materials (rendered into semi-molten "omni-gel" for quick use), it is quite possible for a trained soldier carrying upgrade kits to customize gear on the battlefield to fit the current tactical situation.

Which was basically just ignored in me2 and, unlike ammo, they didn't bother to retcon any differences between the games.


As for me3 itself, I'm really looking forward to the proposed changes so far. The only thing I really hope that the game doesn't involve is an ally fetch quest for the main plot, since we already did that in me2.

[thorgrim29]

alternately, it wasn't ignored and that's how ammo powers work.

[d12]

-Squadmates will automatically apply squad ammo over your ammo, so every time you reload you have to manually put up their ammo, then put up yours.

That's why I never give anybody squad-anything.


So the ammo powers don't work very well, and I doubt they survive into ME3 without major changes.

Wish I could be that optimistic. :smalltongue:


It's not cheating when you get railroaded into ending the relationship. :smalltongue:

I'm not sure if I knew about that when I started playing or not. I generally don't care about spoilers. I just hope Ashley is that understanding in the event someone did want to get back together with her after getting into a relationship with someone else in ME2. :smalleek:

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u128/DaSilva_bj/MassEffect/CheatingMoti.jpg
That won't be an issue for me personally, though. :smallredface:

I don't know how to scale down images in the event that's too big for forum regulations. Please don't murder me.


This is Shepard we're talking about. An ancient artifact once forced the experience of an entire galactic apocalypse into Shepard's mind. The Commander got a bit of a headache. Shepard can break Elder God-induced mind control by speaking very firmly. The Incendiary Ammo power isn't caused by some sort of special bullets. It's caused by Shepard's pure rage channeled into every shot Shepard fires!

I'm now officially working on a theory about the Mass Effect games taking place in Fantasia (from Neverending Story). :smalltongue:


alternately, it wasn't ignored and that's how ammo powers work.

The problem, as Evrine noted, is that they didn't even bother trying to explain how it works (not that I've ever heard anyway). Because I've certainly never heard of anyone changing to hollowpoint rounds just by declaring that they do or wanting it to happen badly enough (see above). And why can only certain classes use certain special ammunition? I'm not a gun expert, but I'm pretty sure I could handle hollowpoints or slugs at least semi-competently, given the 3-4 hours of total range time I've accumulated, and I'm not seeing how these mods are necessarily a much different beast. It's fine if they want to claim it is, but that requires explaining it. Being plausible would be nice too.

[chiasaur11]

I'm now officially working on a theory about the Mass Effect games taking place in Fantasia (from Neverending Story). :smalltongue:



Shepard is going to kill that stupid Dragon if it's the last thing she ever does.

[MechaKingGhidra]

I love Mass Effect as it is the only game series so far that I actively *want* to strive to be "good" in. Something just makes it so amazingly appealing.

Usually, I'm the first one out the door, kicking puppies, slaughtering the common folk, and what-have-you when I am given the choice to be evil.

But Mass Effect? The SOLE renegade act I ever did across 1 and 2 is allowing Cerberus to keep the Collector base. That was only because I wanted to have a hopefully greater story arc for when 3 is released. Besides, no one's perfect, right? :smallwink:

I have not played any DLC, though, as I had borrowed both games from a friend who has since moved away. And even if I did have them, it's not as if I even actually USE my live account for anything. I don't have the same games as my friends except for maybe one game and if I wanted to chat to them, well...that's what my phone is for.

So, with that said, I hope I don't lose my footing too badly if all that terribly many references are made to events that took place in the DLC.

It would just ruin it for me if I were completely bombarded with information that they just ASSUME I supposedly had a reference point to.

Edit: I hope so much that real eye-opener moments that give the characters a sense of 'souls', if you will, exist in ME3. The drama from Mordin's mission alone made me applaud seemingly endlessly at his realization of the horrors he helped unleash upon the krogans.

[VanBuren]

I think I speak for a good number of people when I say that Mordin's loyalty mission may very well be the best piece of writing BioWare has ever produced.

[The Rose Dragon]

I think I speak for a good number of people when I say that Mordin's loyalty mission may very well be the best piece of writing BioWare has ever produced.

Mordin in general is closest to the greatest writing BioWare has produced.

But does it top MDK 2?

[VanBuren]

An excerpt from the Game Informer issue regarding RPG elements:


Some fans of the original Mass Effect complained that the second entry strayed from its RPG roots, focusing too much on the action. While Mass Effect 3 is embracing the action-oriented approach to combat from Mass Effect 2, the team acknowledges that work needs to be done to recapture the series' role-playing spark. To accomplish this, BioWare isn't reverting to old iteration of Mass Effect's design; instead, the studio is adding greater depth and customization to the current model.

In Mass Effect 2, Shepard was reconstructed from scratch, giving BioWare a story-based excuse to reconfigure and reset the skill system. That's not happening again. In Mass Effect 3, you will start out more in line with where you left off in the previous game. "You start out with some of these basic powers you would have had in Mass Effect 2, but quickly they start becoming evolved powers", Hudson explains. "That's where we've added more and different options for you. We know that people wanted to ave not only the ability to allocate skill points, but to have a little more choice in that." This means that a biotic power like Singularity will evolve into several forms as it develops, not just one of two options at the end of a linear progression.

The emphasis on choice also applies to weapons, which now have multiple forms of customization. You can obtain different barrels, scopes, and materials to outfit your arsenal as you see fit. Not only will these weapon mods have tangible combat benefits, but they'll also change the physical appearance of your guns, so you can tailor your favorite weapon to be just the way you like it. "People are right when they say that it needs more in the activity chain, from what you can buy in stores and what you can customize and the way that translates to different weapons and your attachment to them," Hudson says. This mechanics allows Mass Effect 3 to regain some of the personalization of the first game without requiring players to sort through a cumbersome inventory or carry around dozens of possible upgrades.

Gamers Mint has some info from the Game Informer preview as well. (http://www.gamersmint.com/new-mass-effect-3-details-revealed)


Humans aren’t the only species that can be Husk-ified.
ME3 begins with Earth’s assault by the Reapers, and things don’t look so good, but there’s something that is a silver lining, that makes it look like it’s actually possible to not lose against the reapers.
TIM has sent his top agents to take down Shepard, The combat is going to be much harder and melee attacks are going to have more focus.
Shooting specific armor parts can have certain effects, and the AI of the enemies will have them routing Shepard and will coordinate with each other
Battlefields are going to be a great deal larger, and combat will be very varied.
Enemy Weapons can be picked up. Soldiers can carry all kinds of weapons, and other classes understandably less so.
There is a larger skill tree and RPG aspects are going to be more integrated.
Weapon Modding is a greenlight, with things like barrels and scopes
Modding your weapons will vastly affect their appearance and how they function in battle
So far the CONFIRMED SQUADMATES are: Ashley/Kaiden, Liara, Garrus, and James Sanders who is mentioned is an Alliance Marine
Species Loyalty cannot only get obtained via Quests
Levels will have ladders
Available Squadmates will still maintain a balance, if per say Garrus had not survived ME2′s events
Mass Effect 1′s decisions, such as sparing the Rachni, will have a grave impact in ME3
There’s no railroad to the end of the game, there are multiple paths to take back Earth.

And VG247 had an interview with executive producer Casey Hudson. (http://www.vg247.com/2011/04/11/bioware-mass-effect-mmo-makes-sense/)


Asked about the possibility of an MMO, Hudson admitted he feels the franchise is a good match.

“A lot of people say that they want to see an MMO, I think that kind of makes sense for this universe,” he said.

“Part of what you’re trying to do is save the universe so you can live in it. That’s part of the promise, I think, for any great IP. It has to be a world worth saving…

“I think Mass Effect has that quality to it. If you get rid of the Reapers and win that, wouldn’t it be amazing to just live on the Citadel or just take a ship to Omega? That makes sense.”

[Athaniar]

Update Alert: High-Quality Scans! (http://gamingeverything.com/?p=3178&pid=1127) Read all the awesome yourself if you dare!

[Toastkart]

All of that info sounds pretty sweet. The only thing that gives me a bit of a pause is this:


melee attacks are going to have more focus.

Hopefully that just means they've been slightly improved and given more versatility and not made punching someone in the face more effective than shooting a full clip from an assault rifle into someone like halo did.


As for Shep changing class/ appearance in the beginning of the game, I'm kind of glad that they aren't going to have a story reason to reset him. At the same time, I still think they could work in the option as, at least for me, that kind of thing falls under gameplay and story segregation. I don't think killing Shep at the beginning of me2 was necessary just to change his class/ appearance, but was necessary for the story that followed, if that makes sense.

[kamikasei]

Update Alert: High-Quality Scans! (http://gamingeverything.com/?p=3178&pid=1127) Read all the awesome yourself if you dare!
Page 4: is thata female batarian with a sword?

[Athaniar]

Page 4: is thata female batarian with a sword?
Maybe. While the four eye slots appear to indicate batarian (forget Arrival's recolored merc batarians for a sec, OK?), her armor looks very similar to the Cerberus soldiers in the screenshots (assuming the captions aren't wrong). Quite mysterious.

Also, it appears that husks of different kinds are going to be the main infantry enemy (like geth in 1 and mercs in 2). Sounds good, and the harvester husk mentioned in the article sounds awesome. In fact, everything sounds awesome! Especially the thresher maw attacking a reaper.

Also, who is that on page 12? One theory I've read is that he's Kai Leng. And that would be even more awesome.

[GodGoblin]

The mention of more focus on melee attacking an the picture of someone with a sword? Maybe we will be getting melee weapons in this one :smallconfused:

[Dienekes]

Wait... on page 3. Is that? It is! Oh Revvy I thought I'd lost you.

I'll have to go through this more later. But for now, I'm not certain about the sword. I mean, we have guns, really good ones to. Adding swords just seems a cheap way to add ninjas or something.

But whatever, as long as they make interesting fights.

[GodGoblin]

Oh dear that would mean ninjas... :smallfrown:

Unless they do it more like Borderlands? Where your melee attack uses a weapon and maybe you could upgrade that rather than having a brand new combat mechanic

[kamikasei]

(forget Arrival's recolored merc batarians for a sec, OK?)
Oh, I wasn't just going crazy? They really did throw batarian models at me and tell me they were human? Because seriously, that was confusing.

Anyhow, on melee. Recall that shields block small, fast objects - e.g. bullets. It's plausible that - especially given tech like the Tactical Cloak - melee weapons could find a niche for bypassing the shields of enemies you catch unaware. It makes me think less "ninja" and more "Dune". (Though I will admit that it also makes me think "Gray Fox".)

[ShinyRocks]

Add me to the list of people concerned about melee attacks being more important. Though I guess it'd be cool to let Soldiers have swords as a way of giving them a difference.

Bit confused about the stuff about the Alliance grabbing the Normandy and 'taking it back' to look at it. It's Shep's Normandy. Maybe Cerberus's. Certainly not the Alliance's. Am I missing something?

We don't know who's coming back, of course, but it would be pretty sweet if Miranda was either after you or on your side depending on how you treated her and what you did in ME2.

[Sholos]

Okay, the idea of having upgrades for weapons intrigues me and is definitely an improvement. Now if only someone can convince them to drop the stupid ammo system.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Page 4: is thata female batarian with a sword?

Actually, it looks like a human Cerberus operative with a sword. The 'four-eyed' helmet looks like a design choice, rather then accommodating four actual eyes.

On Melee: One of the things people kept seeming to clammer for was a free-flow method of CQC. Nothing intensive or with a button presses, just something like how melee was handled in Batman Asylum. You press a button, and Shepard hurts somebody with his/her hands in a different way, depending on the context of the situation. What I find interesting is...it says each class will have it's own unique melee attack...does that mean we get to do biotic punches? Can we biotic punch the reporter?

[Eliirae]

I hope them working on making melee combat not as sucky doesn't take the focus of combat off of the guns.

After all, ME is a sci-fi action RPG/shooter, not a JRPG where swords > guns :P

[Khosan]

Bit confused about the stuff about the Alliance grabbing the Normandy and 'taking it back' to look at it. It's Shep's Normandy. Maybe Cerberus's. Certainly not the Alliance's. Am I missing something?

Cerberus built it with several improvements, like the AI and leather seats and a massive drive core. Alliance wants to see what they did.

EDIT: And let's not forget all the upgrades Shep made to it. New armor, new cannon, new shields, new cargo bay, new fuel cells, the works.

[Zevox]

I think I speak for a good number of people when I say that Mordin's loyalty mission may very well be the best piece of writing BioWare has ever produced.
Certainly agreed there.


[quoting GI]
Some fans of the original Mass Effect complained that the second entry strayed from its RPG roots, focusing too much on the action.
And I still don't know what those fans were smoking. :smallsigh:


[quoting another site referencing GI]
melee attacks are going to have more focus.
Nice to hear. Could that mean actual melee weapons at last, perhaps? Or is that too much to hope for?

And I see others are already discussing that :smalltongue: . Put me down as: "I really hope we get melee weapons that you can use about as effectively as basic guns." Less reliance on shooter gameplay is a plus in my book. Heck, if that happens, I'll cease to care about the ammo system, as the guns will largely no longer be relevant to me. Biotic/Tech powers for ranged combat, a space-sword for everything else; yes, I would like that very much. :smallbiggrin:

Zevox

[chiasaur11]

Did you all see what I saw?

The Eviscerator is back. Oh, we will have so much fun together.

[ShinyRocks]

Cerberus built it with several improvements, like the AI and leather seats and a massive drive core. Alliance wants to see what they did.

EDIT: And let's not forget all the upgrades Shep made to it. New armor, new cannon, new shields, new cargo bay, new fuel cells, the works.

Oh yeah, I wasn't clear. I get why they'd want to, but wasn't sure how they'd be able to get their hands on it.

Though I guess if you've got Shep in the dock for blowing up 300,000 Batarians, you can probably justify impounding the ship that took her there to do it.

[Calemyr]

Yeah, it's basically just an opportunistic tech grab on the part of the Alliance brass. They figure no way Shep's going to get out from under being labeled a terrorist, might as well strip the Normandy and learn everything they can - Cerberus tech, alien tech, even some Reaper tech... They can put it back together if Shep does the impossible. It's not like the Commander's known for that or anything...

Realistically, though, it's a solution to a major problem with Shep cutting ties with Cerberus. Namely, Cerberus built the thing with more bugs than Microsoft ME. The last thing a freelancing Spectre wants is an email from TIM asking if dinner was as overcooked as it looked. Or worse, asking Shep to move over a little next time, so he can get a good look at the love interest...

[Toastkart]

And I see others are already discussing that :smalltongue: . Put me down as: "I really hope we get melee weapons that you can use about as effectively as basic guns." Less reliance on shooter gameplay is a plus in my book. Heck, if that happens, I'll cease to care about the ammo system, as the guns will largely no longer be relevant to me. Biotic/Tech powers for ranged combat, a space-sword for everything else; yes, I would like that very much. :smallbiggrin:
Zevox

I'm a bit ambivalent on actual melee range weapons myself, I can take them or leave them. I did notice, however, that on the second page of those scans is an image of someone holding a nightstick or baton that is charging with electricity. Somewhat surprised that no one mentioned it yet. The guns shown on that page are also pretty awesome looking.


Anyhow, on melee. Recall that shields block small, fast objects - e.g. bullets. It's plausible that - especially given tech like the Tactical Cloak - melee weapons could find a niche for bypassing the shields of enemies you catch unaware. It makes me think less "ninja" and more "Dune". (Though I will admit that it also makes me think "Gray Fox".)
That's a possibility that I wouldn't mind.

[Mewtarthio]

We already have Kasumi sneaking up behind people and stabbing them in the back. Not to mention husks, rachni, and other monsters that basically just run right up to you and smack you. It's not that much of a stretch. I personally don't want to play a Shepard who runs around with a knife while everyone else is using guns like proper space opera warriors, but so long as it's not mandatory...

[Calemyr]

We already have Kasumi sneaking up behind people and stabbing them in the back. Not to mention husks, rachni, and other monsters that basically just run right up to you and smack you. It's not that much of a stretch. I personally don't want to play a Shepard who runs around with a knife while everyone else is using guns like proper space opera warriors, but so long as it's not mandatory...

That's a very good point. If this game's going to have various husks as the shock troopers of choice, guns are going to be of limited effectiveness. Melee weapons and AoE powers will be very big assets in that case. And those without big AoE attacks (like soldiers) would naturally get a nastier than average melee weapon to balance the books.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Huh. Upon looking over those scans, it seems what I thought was an armored rachni warrior is indeed a rachni husk. Dammit all. x.x Don't tell me saving the rachni just provided the Reapers with a bug army!

Also, did anyone else read about the potential story-board sequence of Shepard leading a column of krogan vehicles to attack a Reaper when a Thresher Maw attacks it?


Photo Revives Debate Over Tuchanka's "Colossal Thresher Maw"

“A photo taken by Clan Ravanor miners during a drilling operation on the krogan homeworld of Tuchanka is reigniting debate on the existence of a colossal thresher maw. The photo, now being viewed widely on the extranet, adds to a long line of evidence that skeptics call an old and treasured hoax -- and believers call irrefutable proof. For centuries, krogan settlements bordering Tuchanka's deserts have told stories of entire clans swallowed by this colossal thresher maw. While locals claim the ancient creature is real, no outside sources have confirmed the beast's existence.”


This suddenly seems remarkably relevant to that potential scene. :smallbiggrin: And yes I want to see that, so very very badly.

As much as I don't want to meet

http://images.wikia.com/masseffect/images/f/fd/Tuchanka_Harvester_Rite_of_Passage.jpg that in husk form.

[chiasaur11]

That's a very good point. If this game's going to have various husks as the shock troopers of choice, guns are going to be of limited effectiveness. Melee weapons and AoE powers will be very big assets in that case. And those without big AoE attacks (like soldiers) would naturally get a nastier than average melee weapon to balance the books.

Shotguns still work fine.

Vanguard!

[Yana]

I noticed that the Geth/Quarian conflict was mentioned. Apparently...

The Quarians have finally gotten fed up with being galactic exiles and have decided to attempt to reclaim their homeworld from the Geth. Seeing as Tali isn't listed as a squadmate yet, I'd be more than willing to bet that this is what she (and Legion for that matter) is up to.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I noticed that the Geth/Quarian conflict was mentioned. Apparently...

The Quarians have finally gotten fed up with being galactic exiles and have decided to attempt to reclaim their homeworld from the Geth. Seeing as Tali isn't listed as a squadmate yet, I'd be more than willing to bet that this is what she (and Legion for that matter) is up to.

Crap! They didn't listen to me! Guess I'm gonna have to step in and pull an Elthina on them. :smallamused:

[Avilan the Grey]

I think I speak for a good number of people when I say that Mordin's loyalty mission may very well be the best piece of writing BioWare has ever produced.

I think Jack's is better.

[Xondoure]

Enemy Weapons can be picked up.

*cries a little*

Other than that I'm excited.

[VanBuren]

I think Jack's is better.

I dunno. Mordin's throws in a legitimate ethical dilemma with just a touch of spirituality. You're challenged to think about whether Mordin did the right thing.

With Jack's, it's pretty obvious that the facility was wholly in the wrong.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I dunno. Mordin's throws in a legitimate ethical dilemma with just a touch of spirituality. You're challenged to think about whether Mordin did the right thing.

With Jack's, it's pretty obvious that the facility was wholly in the wrong.

It is obvious, but it also does a good job of showing that Jack isn't just a complete monster because of her treatment there and is capable of changing for the better, especially if you choose to romance her.

[VanBuren]

It is obvious, but it also does a good job of showing that Jack isn't just a complete monster because of her treatment there and is capable of changing for the better, especially if you choose to romance her.

Yeah, but I just think those extra dimensions in Mordin's push it a bit ahe--you know who really has the best story?

Grunt

[MechaKingGhidra]

I dunno. Mordin's throws in a legitimate ethical dilemma with just a touch of spirituality. You're challenged to think about whether Mordin did the right thing.

With Jack's, it's pretty obvious that the facility was wholly in the wrong.


Pretty much. However, there is only one thing that bothered me, albeit it made total, complete sense to respect the dead: not uncovering, for even a second, the female krogan.

The head was really all I wanted. Do they have crests? Are they the same as the males, only with different voices? So many questions that I don't even really know where to go from here besides those first two.

Up until that point, I was wondering if I'd ever see one because of the references I'd encountered. Oh well. I guess pretty much every game I've played that had at least one big, tough race in it that the female was subject to imagination.

[chiasaur11]

I dunno. Mordin's throws in a legitimate ethical dilemma with just a touch of spirituality. You're challenged to think about whether Mordin did the right thing.

With Jack's, it's pretty obvious that the facility was wholly in the wrong.

Yeah, Mordin's is great.

Only problem is hearing all his (interesting) reasoning requires Shepard to be irritatingly self-righteous.

(For the record, entirely on Mordin's side here. Wasn't nice, but Krogans breeding like bunnies hurts everybody.)

[Callos_DeTerran]

Anyone else notice, in the first game, when you meet the two scientists on Eden Prime, that one of them calls out 'Thank the Maker?' Just something I noticed, anyone think it's a deliberate easter egg to Dragon Age?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Yeah, but I just think those extra dimensions in Mordin's push it a bit ahe--you know who really has the best story?

Grunt

True. Can't argue with simplicity. :smallwink:

[Mewtarthio]

Anyone else notice, in the first game, when you meet the two scientists on Eden Prime, that one of them calls out 'Thank the Maker?' Just something I noticed, anyone think it's a deliberate easter egg to Dragon Age?

Seeing as the first Mass Effect came out two years before Origins... I'd make a snide remark, but neither series involves time travel. :smallannoyed:

[memnarch]

Anyone else notice, in the first game, when you meet the two scientists on Eden Prime, that one of them calls out 'Thank the Maker?' Just something I noticed, anyone think it's a deliberate easter egg to Dragon Age?

Sounds more like a reference to Star Wars to me.

[BRC]

Yeah, Mordin's is great.

Only problem is hearing all his (interesting) reasoning requires Shepard to be irritatingly self-righteous.

(For the record, entirely on Mordin's side here. Wasn't nice, but Krogans breeding like bunnies hurts everybody.)
I remember that Mordin had the better actual story. It was a fascinating situation and an interesting dilemma. Most of the other loyalty missions (With the exception of Legion) were largely personal. Yes sometimes they touched on larger issues (The future of the Quarian fleet, whether or not Donovan Hock could get the information), but they were primarily personal narratives specific to the characters (Jacob seeing what his father has become, whether or not it's right to let Garrus kill Sidonis). Mordin's addressed a bigger issue: Was the Genophage the right decision. Yes, Mordin had to personally face that question, but he was not the only one, and his story served as a connection to a bigger problem, one that is far more important than Miranda's daddy issues.

That said, Jack's was my favorite. It didn't have the most interesting plot (That would be Mordin), or the best gameplay (Kasumi), but it had the best writing. In fact, I'm convinced that they could have dropped all the combat, made the entire mission listening to diary entries and Jack talking, and it would have been just as good, if not better.
And here is why, Jack's mission was far more personal than anybody else's, because it actually showed us a new side to the character. Jacob may have been shocked to learn that his father was a scumbag, but he was the same Jacob we had been working with all game.

However, the Jack that takes you around the facility is not the same Jack who has been squatting in your cargo hold. When you first meet her, Jack is a big ball of rage and hostility. On her mission, you learn that she is so much more than that. It's one thing to give a character a tragic past, it's another to actually watch them relive it. Her mission dosn't pretend to serve a greater purpose like stopping an assassination or getting justice, it's all about Jack facing her past.

Especially telling is the final cinematic, Jack flicking the detonator cap off and on, off and on, as if she knows that this is just a gesture. Jack's mission resolves nothing externally, but internally she has faced her past and she has opened up to Shepard about who she is and where she came from.

[BladeofOblivion]

I noticed that the Geth/Quarian conflict was mentioned. Apparently...

The Quarians have finally gotten fed up with being galactic exiles and have decided to attempt to reclaim their homeworld from the Geth. Seeing as Tali isn't listed as a squadmate yet, I'd be more than willing to bet that this is what she (and Legion for that matter) is up to.


To be fair, as long as they don't just rush in guns blazing, it might even work. The Geth don't even live on planets, just in orbit. If there's actual negotiations, at least according to Legion, the Geth have already forgiven the Quarians. At least the Non-Heretic ones.

[HalfTangible]

Yeah, Mordin's is great.

Only problem is hearing all his (interesting) reasoning requires Shepard to be irritatingly self-righteous.

(For the record, entirely on Mordin's side here. Wasn't nice, but Krogans breeding like bunnies hurts everybody.)

My Shepard had a tough core (Earthborn, Ruthless), but he was largely moral. He confronted Mordin over and over in large part because causing a sentient race to fail in births 99.9% of the time requires - as a Warhammer inquistor once put something similar - "either rot or steel." And in Mordin's case, Shepard decided it was the latter.

Kept the cure data, though. Mordin's thoughts at that terminal made it sound to me like he (and consequently, others) hoped that the measure would only be temporary until the krogan found a better way. At which point, keeping the data would have gotten the cure done much, much quicker.

Personally i'm hoping that the better way involves what Grunt is supposed to do - making individual Krogan stronger and smarter in response to their smaller numbers. Then they won't have a reason to reproduce so often, and consequently won't need to expand constantly.



The data also rings a lot (to me) like a lot of cerberus stuff - 'what happened was tragic but we can still get some good stuff out of it'. Thoughts?

[Khosan]

*cries a little*

Other than that I'm excited.

It could be like Windwaker, where only certain enemies dropped weapons you could pick up and use. And they were usually big heavy ones with the potential to be incredibly awesome.

[HalfTangible]

It could be like Windwaker, where only certain enemies dropped weapons you could pick up and use. And they were usually big heavy ones with the potential to be incredibly awesome.

Maybe they'll make it so said weapons are extremely rare, or only occur when the enemy has a weapon you don't have.

Also, no scaling ranks :smallannoyed: Seriously. Why have 8 models of the same gun?!

EDIT: Er, from a meta perspective. In-universe it makes sense... upgrades and such.

[dromer]

Grunt

This is the best summary of Grunt's backstory I've read in a while.

[Ailurus]

I need to sort of disagree on Jack's loyalty mission - its definitely well done (heck, except for Jacob I'd say they all are, and even his isn't terrible), but I'd rank Mordin's (just overall awesome), Garrus's (mostly the end scene with Sidonis, but I find the black humor with Harkan oddly entertaining too) and Legion's (just because of the major choice) above it. Possibly even Tali's as the court scene is great. But I've just never seen a major change in Jack.

Maybe its because I've not played through with a male Shep so I don't know if the romance dialogue adds more to her character (I think I read somewhere that it does?). And maybe its because I've always done Miranda's loyalty mission first (I'm on Illium as soon as I can get there anyway [to buy the bloody override time extender], mission is on Illium, lets get it out of the way while we're out here).

But any chance of possible change in Jack just gets thrown out the window when - as soon as Shep's done changing out of her armor - she has to run downstairs to stop a biotic catfight between Miri and Jack, because Jack wants yet another person to admit that Cerberus was wrong to her. Yeah, they ruined your life, we've established that. And we just blew up the base for you. WHY do you need to go picking another fight just to get another admission of their guilt from someone?

If she does come back in ME3, hopefully there will be the possibility of a less ... hostile? ... Jack if you got her loyalty in 2.

[VanBuren]

It's not like Miranda was helping. Rather than say that what the facility did was a mistake, she outright says that Jack was a mistake, which belittles her and implies that things would be better if she didn't exist.

I don't have any trauma and that would still rub me the wrong way.

[Yana]

To be fair, as long as they don't just rush in guns blazing, it might even work. The Geth don't even live on planets, just in orbit. If there's actual negotiations, at least according to Legion, the Geth have already forgiven the Quarians. At least the Non-Heretic ones.


That's just the problem.

The way the article is worded, it implies that no matter what Shepard may have said during Tali's trial, the Quarians are going to war. It's all well and good for the Geth to have forgiven them, but I doubt they'll sit idly by while the Flotilla starts its assault. Getting the Quarians to the negotiating table seems to be an unlikely proposition as two of the four remaining admirals favor mutually destructive combat and reclaiming the Geth by force, respectively.

Of course, I'd love to be proven wrong. Yume did her utmost to dissuade the Quarians from war during the trial, it'd be nice if someone followed her advice... for once.

[BRC]

That's just the problem.

The way the article is worded, it implies that no matter what Shepard may have said during Tali's trial, the Quarians are going to war. It's all well and good for the Geth to have forgiven them, but I doubt they'll sit idly by while the Flotilla starts its assault. Getting the Quarians to the negotiating table seems to be an unlikely proposition as two of the four remaining admirals favor mutually destructive combat and reclaiming the Geth by force, respectively.


Yeah, I don't see a war being avoided unless somebody forces them to start talking to each other.
Best case scenario is the Quarians move in, the Geth, not wanting to kill the Quarians and living in orbit anyway, simply flee the system as soon as the Flotilla arrives.

Here's the thing, the Quarian's are more likely to assume that the Geth are simply preparing a counterattack rather than handing the system over the the Quarians.There will be pressure to figure out where the Geth have gone and launch an attack.
Unless somebody is able to get the quarian admirals to seriously listen to the Geth, they will consider the Geth their enemy. The Geth meanwhile will consider the Quarians their enemy, an enemy they have nothing against (The Geth don't hold grudges after all), but one that is trying to destroy them. Maybe, at some point, the Geth will collectively decide that in order to ensure their own survival they must destroy the Quarians before the Quarians build up enough power to destroy the Geth.

Now, if a threat to the entire galaxy, like, say, a reaper invasion forced these two groups onto the same side, and therefore opened up room for negotiations between them...

[Ailurus]

It's not like Miranda was helping. Rather than say that what the facility did was a mistake, she outright says that Jack was a mistake, which belittles her and implies that things would be better if she didn't exist.

I don't have any trauma and that would still rub me the wrong way.

I'm not saying Miranda was in any way in the right in the argument. But the fact remains that as soon as Jack got off the shuttle after the loyalty mission, she goes to pick a fight with Miranda. If she was really trying to change, or even just seriously thinking about what had happened (remember - pretty much her whole childhood memories were put in a new light, you would think she would spend time thinking about it), why is her first action to try to go and wrangle a 'cerberus was wrong' admission out of the most pro-cerberus person on the ship?

[chiasaur11]

My Shepard had a tough core (Earthborn, Ruthless), but he was largely moral. He confronted Mordin over and over in large part because causing a sentient race to fail in births 99.9% of the time requires - as a Warhammer inquistor once put something similar - "either rot or steel." And in Mordin's case, Shepard decided it was the latter.

Kept the cure data, though. Mordin's thoughts at that terminal made it sound to me like he (and consequently, others) hoped that the measure would only be temporary until the krogan found a better way. At which point, keeping the data would have gotten the cure done much, much quicker.

Personally i'm hoping that the better way involves what Grunt is supposed to do - making individual Krogan stronger and smarter in response to their smaller numbers. Then they won't have a reason to reproduce so often, and consequently won't need to expand constantly.



The data also rings a lot (to me) like a lot of cerberus stuff - 'what happened was tragic but we can still get some good stuff out of it'. Thoughts?

Mine was a colonist sole survivor. She's...

Not a person to irritate. At all.

Firm pragmatic streak, tendency towards speedy justice on a personal level, if not advocation for it in general, and limited patience kinda added up to that. (Well, that and explosions. Lot of explosions)

Meant the problem wasn't "Oh no, Mordin! You monster!" but "Right. Preserving galactic stability. Not fun, not nice, but heck. Krogans weren't going to sit down and play ball."

I mean, sure, Wrex is a great leader. Just what the Krogan need.

He's barely allowed in on "Hey, we're doomed anyway. Let's give it a shot."

Give an alternative, and suddenly it starts collapsing, the Turians come in to make sure the problem doesn't crop up again, and on and on.

Natural Krogan birth rates are bad for them, bad for the galaxy, and just handing them an outsider solution fixes nothing. Mordin points out how bad that went first time out.

Not a pleasant choice, but for me, an easy one. The whole horrible experiments thing never came into play.

[Acanous]

Eh, I have high hopes that your choices in 1 and 2 cone to a head in 3.
Saved the Rachni? Stuff happens. Killed them? Different stuff happens.

In the interviews they did on ME2, Bioware was saying a lot of the focus was on your squadmates and the choices you make in their missions. That would most definately be a priority in ME3, to carry over those choices- wouldn't it?

That said, they're also putting a lot of focus into the DLC and things from the book series, as per their IGN release. While I got all the DLC and read the books, I know some folks didn't. Not sure how I feel about this approach.

Of course, I loved Zaeed, Kasumi and the Shadow Broker. Heck, Overlord and Arrival were both pretty good, too. [still need to go play Arrival on my post-game shep to see if]

the Collector general still gives his speech after being sploded

Firewalker was meh. But I don't see Firewalker coming back as something super plot relevant in 3. More likely they'll either toss it in mechanically as more vehicle missions or it'll be DLC again.

[Fawkes]

[still need to go play Arrival on my post-game shep to see if]

the Collector general still gives his speech after being sploded


I could save you the time right here.
It's Harbinger instead.

[Typewriter]

So my theory on the game opening with the trial 'resetting' Shep is at least partially accurate. Don't know how 'reset' it'll be, but the trial will be a good reason to take away all his armor and stuff.

My theory on how the games going to progress and you're going to get your party:

Shepard needs to gather allies. Not party member allies - fleets. You'll go and do a quest to get the Geths help, and Legion will be there (either current legion, or a week old backup).

Go and help the Quarians and if Tali is alive she joins you as the quarians join you. If Tali is dead it's Rheegar with abilities that are identical to Talis.

Go and recruit the Krogan. If Wrex and Grunt are alive you pick one to join you while the other stays behind to lead the Krogan. If only one is alive you get them, and if neither lived then you get either no Krogan, or a new Krogan. Either way they will all have identical builds.

Go and recruit the Hanar. If Thane lived then he is with them getting treatment for his illness, if he's not his son is there learning how to be an assassin.

Basically I think that nearly every scenario is going to have you going to recruit a fleet, and doing so will get you a party member. They don't have to make quests unique to each character since doing so when any character could be dead would be tricky. Instead, have the quests be racial and just plop in a character of the appropriate race. If there are loyalty quests I bet they won't be character specific. The quarian will tell you that his people have found a planet they need checked out, and if it's a viable home for them then that'll motivate them, because they'll have a home to go to when the war is over. You'll take the Quarian on their quest, and get the loyalty of the fleet, them included.

Who is alive will determine some things in each quest, but ultimately you'll wind up with a quarian with quarian abilities, it's just the skin and the voice/dialogue that will change.

[kamikasei]

If Tali is dead it's Rheegar with abilities that are identical to Talis.
...
Either way they will all have identical builds.
...
If Thane lived then he is with them getting treatment for his illness, if he's not his son is there learning how to be an assassin.
Uh.
It might make sense for them to give you mechanically identical alternate characters, but the examples you cite make it implausible. Rheegar's a soldier, not an engineer, and while he could have Tali's tech abilities it'd be pretty arbitrary. Wrex is biotic, while Grunt certainly gave no sign of being so. And I guess that, in theory, if you fail on Thane's loyalty mission and Kolyat completes his hit, or he decides he wants to honour his father's memory by doing the thing his father wanted him never to have to do... and he spontaneously turns out to be biotic too, and the hanar take him on even though he's an adult (or near it) with a criminal record rather than a young child as they seem to prefer...
It all seems a bit of a reach.

[ShinyRocks]

While it's obvious a lot of The Big Decisions will have a big effect (Rachni, Collector base etc), I hope that they still do the smaller stuff, too. Like with Helena Blake turning up in ME2, as an example. For some reason, I've got it into my head that that side-quest where you stop one of the missiles but there's only one kill-switch will be mentioned, at least in passing.

I mean, I expect they will do the little side-quests, but I think they really help to build the whole 'your decisions have consequences' thing, maybe even more than The Big Decisions.

[Typewriter]

Uh.
It might make sense for them to give you mechanically identical alternate characters, but the examples you cite make it implausible. Rheegar's a soldier, not an engineer, and while he could have Tali's tech abilities it'd be pretty arbitrary. Wrex is biotic, while Grunt certainly gave no sign of being so. And I guess that, in theory, if you fail on Thane's loyalty mission and Kolyat completes his hit, or he decides he wants to honour his father's memory by doing the thing his father wanted him never to have to do... and he spontaneously turns out to be biotic too, and the hanar take him on even though he's an adult (or near it) with a criminal record rather than a young child as they seem to prefer...
It all seems a bit of a reach.

Fair enough. My main theory is just that they won't have quests specific to individual characters. Everything will be tied to race/fleet as opposed to individual character, so that they can easily replace dead characters.

Thinking on it now they were able to put Liara in LotSB with her own build even though she was only used for 2 quests, so I guess it's probably not that hard to make uniquely built characters.

[ShinyRocks]

They might be a bit wary of putting in quests for characters who might be dead (reminiscent of Blizzard saying that they stopped doing class-related quests in WoW because most people wouldn't see them), I guess.

That said, given how much they want your decisions to count, I think it would be weird to be like 'Congratulations! You saved everybody in the suicide run. Mordin's gonna sit over there. Your reward is getting to look at his character model'.

[Typewriter]

They might be a bit wary of putting in quests for characters who might be dead (reminiscent of Blizzard saying that they stopped doing class-related quests in WoW because most people wouldn't see them), I guess.

That said, given how much they want your decisions to count, I think it would be weird to be like 'Congratulations! You saved everybody in the suicide run. Mordin's gonna sit over there. Your reward is getting to look at his character model'.

Yeah, I'm hoping it will be more involved than what I'm theorizing, I'm just not expecting it to be.

When I finished ME2 I decided that I couldn't decide if it was a good game or not, because as the middle game in a trilogy it felt weightless unless my actions carried forward meaningly. There's nothing to advance the story, or to draw me in other than "Form a team". If that team winds up being unimportant in ME3 then ME2 will have ultimately felt pointless to me.

I hope they find a good way to integrate them. I would be perfectly fine with one of my playthroughs having only 5 party members because I killed the rest, even if that means I miss out on 20 quests, just to have the impact carry over. I just think it's more likely that they find a way to just slide over the drastic differences in playthroughs.

[Arbitrarity]

The article mention previous squad members being party members for specific missions. This leads me to believe you'd get stuff like Wrex on Tuchanka, except imagine him being willing to accompany you on Grunt/Mordin loyalty missions as an optional squadmate.

Wrex in Mordin's loyalty mission would be EPIC. WHAT.

[Callos_DeTerran]

The article mention previous squad members being party members for specific missions. This leads me to believe you'd get stuff like Wrex on Tuchanka, except imagine him being willing to accompany you on Grunt/Mordin loyalty missions as an optional squadmate.

Wrex in Mordin's loyalty mission would be EPIC. WHAT.

This, essentially. I think one of the ways they're making 'living party members' matter more is by having them feature in missions specific to their sides, along side your 'permanent' party members who can be chosen for any mission. Honestly, I think it's best this way. It allows your impact of saving/killing certain people to still have a large impact without creating an overly large party selection screen (something they are trying to avoid).

More importantly, I don't think the missions are going to be about RECRUITING allies against the Reaper invasion, but rather come in two different kinds. The first is freeing them up to help take back earth (the article implies the Reapers hit Earth first (and hard!) but are attacking the other planets as well) by helping to fend off invasion of their worlds/sides, and then the 'loyalty' type missions that boost their effectiveness. Advancing science, providing moral reasons to win, etc. Like Bioware's said, over the course of the two games you've already laid the groundwork for which allies are going to be available to you, now it's just making sure they can actually help you out.

...I have to ask though, what sort of allies does a Renegade Shepard have access too? Krogan are obvious (with Wrex or without) but I'm drawing a blank on others since Cerberus apparently goes nuttier then usual. Merc groups? Terra Nova party? All human Council?

[thorgrim29]

I still say I want Aria in my party, but not as a LI (or maybe just a physical thing with a renegade Shep) , she just doesn't seem the type to have romantic feelings.

About allies, outside of the council fleet, well you've got the Quarians, the Krogan, the Geth, the Alliance (the main fleet could still be ok, I seem to remember from the codex that the bulk of it isn't stationned in the Solar system), the council (and the SPECTERS), presumably the Hanar once they learn the Reapers killed the Enkindlers, a lot of other stuff.

A paragon Shep also adds the Rachni to that.

[Fawkes]

I find myself wondering if it would have been better for Bioware to have Mass Effect 2 all about building up your team for the long haul. Then, instead of killing an arbitrary number of them, you automatically lose a few. Maybe there are one or two who are guaranteed to die, or maybe you have to make a choice, Kaiden/Ashley style. Maybe Thane sacrifices himself, since he's not long for this world, or maybe your two Cerberus agents are trouble and you can only save one. Or, if they really wanted us to hurt, make us choose between Garrus and Tali. In the end, your party comes out bloodied, battered, and bruised, but mostly alive.

Then, in ME3, all the survivors would be back, with a small handful of newbies. At the climax of the game, Shepherd goes on a real suicide mission, where anyone can die, and you're going to have a hell of a time trying to save everyone.

I feel like this would have been better for two reasons. One, it would have removed this anxiety about the returning squad members. If we don't get all the characters we want back, it's going to be disappointing. If they're all coming back, it's either going to be clunky to manage them all, or the game's going to be real difficult for people who lost a lot in ME2.

Second, it would give the character's deaths in the final game more impact. Someone linked an article back in the ME2 thread that noted that if you actually get to know a character and do their story missions, they're probably not going to die. Generally, if you lose a character in ME2's suicide mission, it's either A) someone you hardly knew, B) a victim of improper ship maintenance, or C) Mordin. Usually A. In these cases, you're not really going to care that they died. Losing a character after working with them for two or three games is going to be a lot more powerful.

Of course, Bioware could end up knocking ME3 out the park and this could be fruitless and idle complaint, but...

I forgot what my point was.

[Athaniar]

It would be nice to see a Spectre who is both good and survives more than a few minutes. Not as a party member, but as an important NPC.

[Muz]

It's been a while since I played ME2 (or 1), but I did just look at the ME wiki to see what happens in Arrival.

Can someone refresh me on a few points?

1) Do we ever figure out why the Collectors were building the human-form Reaper?

2) What's the difference between the relay in the Citadel from ME1 and the (Arrival spoilers) Alpha Relay from Arrival? It sounds like they both allow the Reapers to get into the galaxy. Why didn't the Reapers just switch over to that immediately once the Citadel entry point was blocked?

[kamikasei]

1) Do we ever figure out why the Collectors were building the human-form Reaper?
Nope. Presumably that'll be a topic for ME3.

2) What's the difference between the relay in the Citadel from ME1 and the (Arrival spoilers) Alpha Relay from Arrival? It sounds like they both allow the Reapers to get into the galaxy. Why didn't the Reapers just switch over to that immediately once the Citadel entry point was blocked?
Good, unanswered, annoying question. The difference is that the Alpha Relay isn't stated to help the Reapers reach our galaxy - rather, it helps them get around our galaxy once they reach it, which I don't recall the Citadel being stated to do. Whether it acts as the endpoint of a relay in dark space that's helping them get hear quickly - as the Citadel was - or if they're arriving via some other means is never addressed. It might just be that they have a particularly fast form of FTL that they can only use outside the galaxy proper, hence their aiming for a system on the rim (see, e.g., Vernor Vinge or Iain M Banks for precedents in sci-fi).

(The Viper Nebula looks to be on the rim, but I'm not sure it's ever stated anywhere.)

[Athaniar]

The Alpha Relay thing annoys me. If they have a relay they can use to get anywhere, and they can get there almost instantly, then why do they need the Citadel and Sovereign? All Sovereign did was to make sure the galaxy (well, Shepard) knew about the Reapers, which I hardly think was the original intention. Why not simply fly to the Alpha Relay, surprise attack the batarians in the area, and whoosh, the galaxy is at their feet (tentacles?). First a quick stop at the Serpent Nebula to take out an unsuspecting Citadel, then the rest of a galaxy that has no idea what a "Reaper" is except a mythological creature. Total galactic conquest once again, and no meddling Shepard to stand in their way.

[kamikasei]

Well, it might be that the Citadel has to be used to awaken the sleeping Reapers. (I wonder how long Harbinger was supposed to have been puppeteering the Collectors for?) Putting the test/trigger for that at the expected heart of galactic civilization make sense, compared to waiting for someone sufficiently representative of the state of affairs in the galaxy at large to stumble across the Alpha Relay.

How the hell the Reapers are getting to the galaxy so fast does annoy me for how it's been left unexplained, though. Even if it's accounted for, having a handy-dandy backup for the Citadel as an entry point just seems... cheap.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

My understanding was that the Alpha Relay was more along the lines of a "back-up plan" for the invasion. The thing about the Reapers is that their combined might is unstoppable. They can take as long as they need to wipe out the galaxy, and don't need to worry about being driven back (until Shepard arrived on the scene). So, their main plan was to use the Citadel as a swift decapitation strike, getting the information they need and disorganizing the galaxy to conquer it. But they did think about the possibility that something might happen to the Citadel, so they made the Alpha Relay to serve as a backup plan. The main advantage the Alpha Relay has is that it allows the Reapers to mobilize quickly, an advantage they need since if they can't take the Citadel quickly enough they're fighting their war blind.

I can see the strategic value of it, but what I'm having a hard time figuring out is just how far away the Reapers truly are. Are they getting to the Relay "on-foot," as it were, travelling under their own power? If so, then how long has all this stuff been going on? If they have a back-up relay out in Dark Space, why didn't they get there sooner? They don't measure the time things take in either game, but given the relevant sense of urgency throughout the series, it can't have been longer than a few months (not counting the two years Shepard spent dead).

[HalfTangible]

The Alpha Relay thing annoys me. If they have a relay they can use to get anywhere, and they can get there almost instantly, then why do they need the Citadel and Sovereign? All Sovereign did was to make sure the galaxy (well, Shepard) knew about the Reapers, which I hardly think was the original intention. Why not simply fly to the Alpha Relay, surprise attack the batarians in the area, and whoosh, the galaxy is at their feet (tentacles?). First a quick stop at the Serpent Nebula to take out an unsuspecting Citadel, then the rest of a galaxy that has no idea what a "Reaper" is except a mythological creature. Total galactic conquest once again, and no meddling Shepard to stand in their way.
Because going that route is not instantaneous, whereas communication (basically) is. So the galaxy would have time to warn their leaders, which ruins the point of having the citadel part of the reaper plot in the first place.

If they go by citadel, they get there near instantly, and can immediately kill off galactic leaders. (Remember, that's one of the main reasons the Reapers are so effective at extermination - they take out the leaders first)


Well, it might be that the Citadel has to be used to awaken the sleeping Reapers. (I wonder how long Harbinger was supposed to have been puppeteering the Collectors for?) Putting the test/trigger for that at the expected heart of galactic civilization make sense, compared to waiting for someone sufficiently representative of the state of affairs in the galaxy at large to stumble across the Alpha Relay.

How the hell the Reapers are getting to the galaxy so fast does annoy me for how it's been left unexplained, though. Even if it's accounted for, having a handy-dandy backup for the Citadel as an entry point just seems... cheap.

Well, if you think about it, The reapers could have started moving as long as two years ago, depending on whether or not sovereign got a message off. Even if the Reapers thought they had no chance to lose, Soveriegn would've had to have a reason for choosing that moment to attack the citadel. My guess is that he had a specific time frame. In addition, the Reapers had collector spies. And if you accept that the Reapers have FTL drives (which no one else uses due to relativity issues, im guessing) time frames seem a lot easier to comprehend

[kamikasei]

The thing is, if they had this backup plan, it's not at all obvious why Sovereign would bother with all that sneaking around to get to the Citadel. Why couldn't he just go to the Alpha Relay, call in his peeps, and go to the Citadel from there?

Is the Citadel needed to start the invasion, apart from its use as a relay? Did he just not want to lose face by admitting he was afraid to attack the lowly mortals? Explanations are possible, but not forthcoming, and I'm not sure I'll like any that they might give.

And if you accept that the Reapers have FTL drives (which no one else uses due to relativity issues, im guessing) time frames seem a lot easier to comprehend
Everyone has FTL drives. The relays are not the only method of FTL travel. I'm not sure where this (seemingly widespread) misconception comes from.

On the other hand you might be right about the time limit thing. But then, if the Reapers wake up and travel on their own clock anyway, why does Sovereign need to do anything? Does he just have to turn on the Citadel relay so that it can receive an incoming transmission? Then why not just use the Alpha Relay from the beginning?

The clear impression I got from the first game was that traveling from dark space was a big deal, and an extra-large relay in the form of the Citadel was required for it; and furthermore, that the Reapers were dormant and Sovereign had to send a signal to awaken them. Now, I can accept that the signal might have been sent before he got the Citadel fully suborned to use as a relay, or that the Collectors might have acted as a secondary channel for waking up the Reapers, but for them to have another way to get to the galaxy within just two years still seems just plain cheap, and the revelation of these backup plans makes his risking his existence in an attack on the Citadel seem rather foolhardy.

[BRC]

The thing is, if they had this backup plan, it's not at all obvious why Sovereign would bother with all that sneaking around to get to the Citadel. Why couldn't he just go to the Alpha Relay, call in his peeps, and go to the Citadel from there?

Is the Citadel needed to start the invasion, apart from its use as a relay? Did he just not want to lose face by admitting he was afraid to attack the lowly mortals? Explanations are possible, but not forthcoming, and I'm not sure I'll like any that they might give.

Everyone has FTL drives. The relays are not the only method of FTL travel. I'm not sure where this (seemingly widespread) misconception comes from.

On the other hand you might be right about the time limit thing. But then, if the Reapers wake up and travel on their own clock anyway, why does Sovereign need to do anything? Does he just have to turn on the Citadel relay so that it can receive an incoming transmission? Then why not just use the Alpha Relay from the beginning?

The clear impression I got from the first game was that traveling from dark space was a big deal, and an extra-large relay in the form of the Citadel was required for it; and furthermore, that the Reapers were dormant and Sovereign had to send a signal to awaken them. Now, I can accept that the signal might have been sent before he got the Citadel fully suborned to use as a relay, or that the Collectors might have acted as a secondary channel for waking up the Reapers, but for them to have another way to get to the galaxy within just two years still seems just plain cheap, and the revelation of these backup plans makes his risking his existence in an attack on the Citadel seem rather foolhardy.
Well, first of all, attacking the Citadel is a big part of the Reaper's strategy. The Citadel is built to be an ideal home for a galactic government, by attacking and capturing it, the Reapers decapitate that government and get lots of information on where everybody is in the Galaxy.

The Reapers could probably brute-force conquer their way across the galaxy, but that's risky. A unified galactic community that sees them coming is much harder prey than a galactic community whose first idea that the reapers exist came when the reapers took out the center of galactic government.

[HalfTangible]

Everyone has FTL drives. The relays are not the only method of FTL travel. I'm not sure where this (seemingly widespread) misconception comes from.Then why does the time frame seem unreasonable to you? :smallannoyed: The only way it would would be if FTL didn't exist. (particularly since FTL has a set MINIMUM but not a maximum)


But then, if the Reapers wake up and travel on their own clock anyway, why does Sovereign need to do anything? Does he just have to turn on the Citadel relay so that it can receive an incoming transmission? Then why not just use the Alpha Relay from the beginning?

I addressed this in the same post you're quoting but snipped. In essence, because what the Reapers want to do is kill off the Galaxy's leaders, which are located on the citadel, before they attack anybody else.

You get your entire force behind enemy lines, cut communications, destroy morale, AND obliterate their leadership? Like taking candy from a baby. After tazing the baby.


The clear impression I got from the first game was that traveling from dark space was a big deal, and an extra-large relay in the form of the Citadel was required for it; and furthermore, that the Reapers were dormant and Sovereign had to send a signal to awaken them.

My impression was that the Reapers needed to stay shut down while waiting for the right time to attack, and that the citadel made the journey and subsequent reaping quick and efficient.

The dormancy until the signal, yes, but Sovereign sent the signal, remember? And it didn't work. Vigil (is that his name?) mentions that that was why he was taking a direct approach. And since the Reapers couldn't go, they knew something was wrong. If the Reapers didn't have something in their programing that said 'ok, if it's been this long since we woke up, then go to plan B' then it makes little sense for Soveriegn to rush to activate the citadel.


Now, I can accept that the signal might have been sent before he got the Citadel fully suborned to use as a relay, or that the Collectors might have acted as a secondary channel for waking up the Reapers, but for them to have another way to get to the galaxy within just two years still seems just plain cheap, and the revelation of these backup plans makes his risking his existence in an attack on the Citadel seem rather foolhardy.

See above :smallsmile:

[kamikasei]

Well, first of all, attacking the Citadel is a big part of the Reaper's strategy. The Citadel is built to be an ideal home for a galactic government, by attacking and capturing it, the Reapers decapitate that government and get lots of information on where everybody is in the Galaxy.
So: why couldn't they just go to the Alpha Relay, then immediately go to the Citadel? The Alpha Relay can send them there. Same effect, no need to secure the centre of galactic civilization if the keepers don't work; just invade an out-of-the-way system and keep any word from getting out before you reach the Citadel, which should be a cakewalk.

Then why does the time frame seem unreasonable to you? :smallannoyed: The only way it would would be if FTL didn't exist. (particularly since FTL has a set MINIMUM but not a maximum)
My objections are several.
a) We have one benchmark for FTL in Mass Effect, which I'm getting from the wiki (not sure of their source), which pegs it at 4.4 kilolights. The Reapers look to be further than 9,000 ly from the galaxy at the end of ME2.
b) Yes, their drives could be faster... but then everything is screwed anyway, because if they can cover intergalactic distances in just two years the destruction of the Alpha Relay will slow them down only very little. Getting to another relay will take much less time than getting to the galaxy in the first place. The fact that they can move that quickly should be a huge source of concern to the characters and it's not addressed.
c) It just feels small. If it only takes two years for the Reapers to reach the galaxy from their lurking place under their own power, they don't feel so distant and looming and menacing. It makes them feel too immediate, too local, for my taste.

I addressed this in the same post you're quoting but snipped. In essence, because what the Reapers want to do is kill off the Galaxy's leaders, which are located on the citadel, before they attack anybody else.
I think you've overlooked the pertinent part of my own post, as BRC did. That exact same tactic can still work if they go via the Alpha Relay.

The dormancy until the signal, yes, but Sovereign sent the signal, remember?
He sent the signal to the Citadel. If that was relayed to the Reapers to wake them, rather than just being supposed (and failing) to activate the keepers, then he shouldn't have needed to go to the Citadel at all.

[BRC]

I think you've overlooked the pertinent part of my own post, as BRC did. That exact same tactic can still work if they go via the Alpha Relay.
.

Yes, but it won't work nearly as well.

Plan A is that they jump directly to the Citadel, take out the galactic leadership, and then start reaping the rest of the galaxy.
Plan B is that they FTL to the Alpha Relay, Jump to the Citadel Relay (Not the Citadel itself, the standard ME relay nearby), take out galactic leadership and then start reaping the rest of the galaxy.

The thing is, Plan A works Better for them. First of all, they don't know where galactic civilization will rise, they just assume that it will be centered in the Citadel. For all they know that fringe system with the Alpha relay could be the homeworld of a powerful galactic empire.

Secondly, even if they FTL to the Alpha Relay, unless they can capture the system before anybody sends a message, word will get out that Something is coming. Then, when they Alpha Relay to the Citadel, they have to approach as Sovereign did rather than Jumping right into the citadel, this means whoever holds the citadel gets to shoot at them. They'll probably still survive, but it's an extra risk.


Basically, the Alpha relay works for their plan, but not as well as directly jumping to the Citadel itself. Hence why it's a backup plan.

[HalfTangible]

So: why couldn't they just go to the Alpha Relay, then immediately go to the Citadel? The Alpha Relay can send them there. Same effect, no need to secure the centre of galactic civilization if the keepers don't work; just invade an out-of-the-way system and keep any word from getting out before you reach the Citadel, which should be a cakewalk.

Because you'd have to go through relays to get there, which:

A) takes time, and i'm pretty damn sure a star system going dark would scream 'invasion' to just about everybody anyway -_-

B) Leaves you at the front door, RIGHT WHERE THEY EXPECT ENEMIES TO COME.


My objections are several.
a) We have one benchmark for FTL in Mass Effect, which I'm getting from the wiki (not sure of their source), which pegs it at 4.4 kilolights. The Reapers look to be further than 9,000 ly from the galaxy at the end of ME2.
b) Yes, their drives could be faster... but then everything is screwed anyway, because if they can cover intergalactic distances in just two years the destruction of the Alpha Relay will slow them down only very little. Getting to another relay will take much less time than getting to the galaxy in the first place. The fact that they can move that quickly should be a huge source of concern to the characters and it's not addressed.

A) What makes you say that? They looked plenty close to me. And the distances aren't something that can be determined visually, they're too great for that.

C) I'm not sure how your local complaint is possible, the human mind is incapable of imagining such distances at any rate.


I think you've overlooked the pertinent part of my own post, as BRC did. That exact same tactic can still work if they go via the Alpha Relay.No, it can't. The Citadel relay pops them right there in the center (as i understand it) which means they can get the leaders immediately. Which is the WHOLE POINT.


He sent the signal to the Citadel. If that was relayed to the Reapers to wake them, rather than just being supposed (and failing) to activate the keepers, then he shouldn't have needed to go to the Citadel at all.

Soverign went to activate the citadel so they would not NEED plan b. If Soverign didn't send a signal to the other reapers to prepare to invade then activating the citadel is utterly pointless in any case. An unstoppable dreadnaught fleet isn't exactly unstoppable when they're all switched off. :smallannoyed:

[Illieas]

So: why couldn't they just go to the Alpha Relay, then immediately go to the Citadel? The Alpha Relay can send them there. Same effect, no need to secure the centre of galactic civilization if the keepers don't work; just invade an out-of-the-way system and keep any word from getting out before you reach the Citadel, which should be a cakewalk.

Sovereign could make it the citadel fine without the alpha relay. he and the geth forces came through the regular mass relays to attack the citadel in the first place

the point was that the citadel has a defense measure that closes the arm to make it impenetrable.
since his signal doesn't work anymore. he can't force it to open for him.
so he would be staring at the fortress unable to do anything on it and would be destroyed when the big fleets come inretaliation

this is why the conduit and Saren was so necessary. Saren was needed to open the arms and give sovereign the ability to interface with the citadel.

Edit:
the reapers are very efficient and very patient. they would not want to use that much engine fuel to drive when the citadel is much easier and also quicker. You could also say tha the repears are rather conceited. I think sovereigns failure was something none of them expected. once sovereign failed they decided to opt for plan B which was the alpha relay. that you also twarted.

What i don't get is why is it necessary for there to be a special alpha relay? you could have easily made that relay the closest relay to where they were stationed in dark space and the conclusion would have been the same and then we wouldnt need this non pair relay retcon

[kamikasei]

Because you'd have to go through relays to get there, which:
The Alpha Relay leads directly to the Citadel.

Yes, going to the Citadel is better than going to the Alpha Relay. But if the Citadel doesn't work properly, going to the Alpha Relay is better than Sovereign's approach, which had a whole bunch more points of failure.

I'm not saying the Reapers should always come through the Alpha Relay; I'm saying that they should have done so before the events of Mass Effect 1, instead of, you know, the plot of that game.

Illeas: yes, that's why Sovereign had to do what he did if he wanted to get access to the Citadel to interface with it. But I'm not talking about Sovereign, I'm talking about the entire Reaper armada. They don't need to interface with the Citadel. They can just sit outside it and destroy fleets with impunity. It might be annoying not to be able to get in and nom on the delicious leadership branes they so crave, if the Citadel really is totally impregnable even to the Reapers themselves, but it's a lot less risky than assaulting the place with one Reaper on his own.

A) What makes you say that? They looked plenty close to me. And the distances aren't something that can be determined visually, they're too great for that.
The entire disk of the Milky Way appears to be visible at once, not even taking up that large a portion of the view. That suggests they're at least an appreciable fraction of the diameter of the galaxy away, and that's not thousands but tens of thousands of light years.

[Closet_Skeleton]

So: why couldn't they just go to the Alpha Relay, then immediately go to the Citadel? The Alpha Relay can send them there. Same effect, no need to secure the centre of galactic civilization if the keepers don't work; just invade an out-of-the-way system and keep any word from getting out before you reach the Citadel, which should be a cakewalk.

Um, isn't that what they are doing?

For all we know Sovereign's plan from Mass Effect 1 was just him trying to save face and the other Reapers didn't really care whether he suceeded or not. Which would be ironic considering Shepard only exists as the messianic enemy of the Reapers as a reaction to Sovereign.



I'm not saying the Reapers should always come through the Alpha Relay; I'm saying that they should have done so before the events of Mass Effect 1, instead of, you know, the plot of that game.


They're a billions of years old Galactic menace. Why would they care about doing things the quickest way possible?

There's a possibility of several Reapers dying in a frontal attack on the citadel. Sending one Reaper on an alternate mission is still worth it.



The entire disk of the Milky Way appears to be visible at once, not even taking up that large a portion of the view. That suggests they're at least an appreciable fraction of the diameter of the galaxy away, and that's not thousands but tens of thousands of light years.

I'm not even going to bother with the obvious TVtropes link here.

[kamikasei]

Um, isn't that what they are doing?

For all we know Sovereign's plan from Mass Effect 1 was just him trying to save face and the other Reapers didn't really care whether he suceeded or not. Which would be ironic considering Shepard only exists as the messianic enemy of the Reapers as a reaction to Sovereign.
It's what they're doing now. If Sovereign's plan worked, though, they'd have had to have been at the/a corresponding relay in dark space in order to make use of the Citadel, so it's not something he could do on his own while they were already en route on their own initiative. Either as a desperate face-saving measure that was really quite stupid, or else as an ill-advised part of their overall strategy, Sovereign took risks that revealed a lot about the Reapers that the galaxy need never have known. Seriously, if Sovereign hadn't indoctrinated Saren and gone hunting for the Conduit the Reapers could simply have arrived in Bahak, the system gone dark with no one noticing or caring, and the Citadel buried under giant flying space prawns before they know what hit them.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Either as a desperate face-saving measure that was really quite stupid, or else as an ill-advised part of their overall strategy, Sovereign took risks that revealed a lot about the Reapers that the galaxy need never have known. Seriously, if Sovereign hadn't indoctrinated Saren and gone hunting for the Conduit the Reapers could simply have arrived in Bahak, the system gone dark with no one noticing or caring, and the Citadel buried under giant flying space prawns before they know what hit them.

Pride goeth before a fall?

The galaxy isn't exactly arming itself against the Reapers due to Sovereign's attack. Just one loony who the Reapers then had killed.

Maybe they were gathering data. The collector's projects don't really make much sense either with the information we have.

We don't even know what the Reaper's real goals are. For all we know their motivation for wiping out all life has no "do it as quickly as possible" clause.

Its not like military blunders don't exist in real life. Even giant cyborg space nautaloids are bound to have a glitch if they do something a thousand times.

Is it ever stated exactly where Harbinger is? Is he outside the galaxy with the other reapers or was he hiding somewhere in the galaxy?

[Illieas]

Is it ever stated exactly where Harbinger is? Is he outside the galaxy with the other reapers or was he hiding somewhere in the galaxy?

the last cinematic show him being among the rest of the reapers, when he releases control.

[Androgeus]

Question: Did the reapers in dark "awaken" when Sovergin first pinged the citadel to open (I'm not sure when this was though, it is could be about 20 years prior to the Citadel assault when he was discovered but there's nothing really to support this), or was it when he got control of the citadel?

[HalfTangible]

The Alpha Relay leads directly to the Citadel.It goes to the Citadel's mass relay, not to the Citadel itself. I think you're missing that distinction.


Yes, going to the Citadel is better than going to the Alpha Relay. But if the Citadel doesn't work properly, going to the Alpha Relay is better than Sovereign's approach, which had a whole bunch more points of failure.

To be frank, the Citadel battle was won largely through sheer dumb luck and/or plot convenience. Sovereign didn't think failure was probable enough to warrant concern.

In fact, Sovereign's failed attack was what made the citadel plan nonviable. Until Sovereign's destruction the Reapers had no reason to believe the plan would fail, just that it would be delayed a bit.


I'm not saying the Reapers should always come through the Alpha Relay; I'm saying that they should have done so before the events of Mass Effect 1, instead of, you know, the plot of that game.

They still would've had to bear the brunt of the enemy's military force before victory.


The entire disk of the Milky Way appears to be visible at once, not even taking up that large a portion of the view. That suggests they're at least an appreciable fraction of the diameter of the galaxy away, and that's not thousands but tens of thousands of light years.

I'm gonna go look at the video to be sure, but i thought the Milky Way looked much closer than that. Still a biiiiig distance, but one that would be manageable via FTL.

Also: did anyone get a timeframe between Arrival and the Reaper invasion of Earth? A week? A month? Two years?

EDIT: Looking at the video, the milky way is at an angle, and while it doesn't take a whole lot of the screen, the Reapers appear to be near the rim where they attack in arrival. Also, i only see one spiral arm on the side the reapers are on, and it doesn't end within sight, so the reapers are, indeed, very close (relatively)

[Philistine]

Question: Did the reapers in dark "awaken" when Sovergin first pinged the citadel to open (I'm not sure when this was though, it is could be about 20 years prior to the Citadel assault when he was discovered but there's nothing really to support this), or was it when he got control of the citadel?

Much longer ago than that, I think. If you spare the Rachni Queen on Noveria, you're eventually told that the Rachni Wars were a result of that species coming under the influence of Indoctrination. The obvious conclusion is that Sovereign was actively trying to get at the Citadel via a pawn species - presumably because the "wake-up" signal failed to have the expected effect - at least a couple of thousand years prior to the events of the first game.

[VanBuren]

Um, isn't that what they are doing?

For all we know Sovereign's plan from Mass Effect 1 was just him trying to save face and the other Reapers didn't really care whether he suceeded or not. Which would be ironic considering Shepard only exists as the messianic enemy of the Reapers as a reaction to Sovereign.

Which still works for me. Even if Sovereign is considered a joke among the Reapers, he's still a Reaper. Shepard defeating him is like an ant taking down the class wimp. I mean sure, he's a wimp, but the ant still shouldn't be able to do that.

You're gonna take note.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm still confused about the time and distance issue. Just how long has it been between the Suicide Mission and Arrival?

[Derthric]

I'm still confused about the time and distance issue. Just how long has it been between the Suicide Mission and Arrival?

Its never established, in fact you can do Arrival BEFORE the suicide mission, which induces severe boggled mind syndrome. Honestly they should have made it only playable after the suicide mission and with a little blurb "1 year later" or some such. But no, its just the tuesday after the collectors went bye bye.

[Callos_DeTerran]

It's what they're doing now. If Sovereign's plan worked, though, they'd have had to have been at the/a corresponding relay in dark space in order to make use of the Citadel, so it's not something he could do on his own while they were already en route on their own initiative. Either as a desperate face-saving measure that was really quite stupid, or else as an ill-advised part of their overall strategy, Sovereign took risks that revealed a lot about the Reapers that the galaxy need never have known. Seriously, if Sovereign hadn't indoctrinated Saren and gone hunting for the Conduit the Reapers could simply have arrived in Bahak, the system gone dark with no one noticing or caring, and the Citadel buried under giant flying space prawns before they know what hit them.

Nothing was REALLY revealed about the Reapers from Sovereign's attack on the Citadel, there isn't even any hard proof that Sovereign was a Reaper. Heck, the most advanced things to be discovered via the attack was the Thanix Cannon and possibly EDI. While special, that's not exactly providing an overwhelming edge for the defenders.

More importantly, there's a very good reason for Sovereign to do what Sovereign did, the Citadel is key to the Reaper invasion plan. It doesn't just hold the seat of galactic government and censure data so they have an accurate head-count of how many people to kill, it can shut down other relays. That's what the Reapers do. They cut off the leadership 'head', take the info, then stop any form of appreciable movement between systems by turning off every relay but the one they plan on invading through next to pick off organic life piece-meal.

And as has been said, the Reapers can't just attack the Citadel en force. The arms would close and they'd be SoL. They built the Citadel to be as impregnable as possible (and as easy to use as possible) so new-comers wouldn't even TRY to understand it and so it would withstand the test of time. Sure, the Reapers might know a way in, but it could very well be time-consuming and energy consuming if the Citadel isn't responding to their signals. Time enough for fleets to rally against the Reapers. Sure, they might pick off the first desperate rescue attempts, but they'll still get banged up a bit in each attempt. Eventually races will back off and launch a mass attack. The Reapers might even win that, but they'll lose numbers in the attempt that they're likely not to want to lose, especially when they can eliminate that problem entirely by using Sovereign's plan, especially since it just risks Sovereign.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Whoa! I forgot about the Citadel being able to control the relay network. Right, that is another significant tactical advantage. With the Citadel now out of reach, the Reapers are forced to cover a lot more ground much more quickly.

Thanks for reminding me about that Callos!

[Callos_DeTerran]

Whoa! I forgot about the Citadel being able to control the relay network. Right, that is another significant tactical advantage. With the Citadel now out of reach, the Reapers are forced to cover a lot more ground much more quickly.

Thanks for reminding me about that Callos!

There's also the fact that the Reapers could be concerned that the organics might have figured out how to isolate the relays. This cycle of reaping has already been stalled as is, so organics have had more time to come up with innovations then previous cycles have, which makes this one more dangerous for the Reapers. If the Reapers discover that the Council could isolate relays from the network, then the Reapers are facing a far tougher cycle then usual, because the various races are going to have far more time to prepare.

[kamikasei]

It goes to the Citadel's mass relay, not to the Citadel itself. I think you're missing that distinction.
The Citadel and the Citadel relay are very close together. Close enough that, if the entire Reaper force is coming through, one is pretty much as good as the other - spread them out as they are when we see them at the end of ME2 and they'd probably stretch across the gap immediately.

More importantly, there's a very good reason for Sovereign to do what Sovereign did, the Citadel is key to the Reaper invasion plan. It doesn't just hold the seat of galactic government and censure data so they have an accurate head-count of how many people to kill, it can shut down other relays.
That's a good point that I had forgotten.

[Xondoure]

So plan A) trigger citadel
plan B) use Ilos to trigger citadel
plan C) fly in from darkspace and use the alpha relay
plan D) fly in from darkspace without the alpha relay
...plan C still just feels lame.

[Yana]

Hey it's better than them not having a backup plan at all. Though it wouldn't be much of a game if they didn't

[HalfTangible]

So plan A) trigger citadel
plan B) use Ilos to trigger citadel
plan C) fly in from darkspace and use the alpha relay
plan D) fly in from darkspace without the alpha relay
...plan C still just feels lame.

That's because the other two plans are awesome and fun to stop. :smallcool:


The Citadel and the Citadel relay are very close together. Close enough that, if the entire Reaper force is coming through, one is pretty much as good as the other - spread them out as they are when we see them at the end of ME2 and they'd probably stretch across the gap immediately.

Except that if they go directly to the citadel (as opposed to the relay), they're either on all sides of the security forces, or directly behind, where they can strike with impunity. Also, they would be inside the arms, and thus closing them would be useless.

[Calemyr]

The Citadel strategy is their preferred method for several reasons, but the most critical is the fact that it's a decapitating strike. Whatever galactic organization holds the Citadel is almost by default the most powerful force on the map, simply because any stronger force would have taken it away from them by now otherwise.

Sneak attacking the Citadel not only renders the most powerful faction leaderless, it disrupts galactic communication, allows them to disable all the relays at once to stop movement, and gives them the aforementioned census data. The war is won with the first blow, everything else is clean up.

The Alpha Relay is a reluctant second choice at best. Sure, it can be used as a secondary hub, and is likely positioned in the Relay network so that it's not a desirable colonization point, but by opting to use it the Reapers already have lost their single-stroke victory and are forced to wage a more traditional campaign. I mean, sure, they are so much more powerful that it's not much of a challenge, but it's already a major setback and an unnecessary risk. Still, only an idiot puts all their effort in one tactic, no matter how fool-proof it is, as eventually you'll meet a bigger fool than you ever imagined.

[MechaKingGhidra]

Just realized something: I only gave Cerberus the dang Collector base because I wanted a hopefully more epic-level story to go through. Even though that was my sole renegade act throughout both 1 and 2, perhaps I bit off more than I can chew with this decision?

I'm beginning to have my doubts that Cerberus would be able to disable ALL the safeguards they most likely programmed into it. Imagine if Harbringer could remotely activate the defenses and completely cripple Cerberus when they thought it was safe enough to move their top teams into operating the bloody thing.

I may not exactly know how these sorts of things work but a bit of caution is certainly handy to have around.

Though in retrospect, it'd be nice to take The Illusive Man down a peg. That bugger pushed ALL the wrong buttons in 2.

[HalfTangible]

i kept the base because it probably COULD help stop the reapers, and Shepard had already pulled a few renegade moves to kill them already.

I will probably regret it later.

[chiasaur11]

Just realized something: I only gave Cerberus the dang Collector base because I wanted a hopefully more epic-level story to go through. Even though that was my sole renegade act throughout both 1 and 2, perhaps I bit off more than I can chew with this decision?

I'm beginning to have my doubts that Cerberus would be able to disable ALL the safeguards they most likely programmed into it. Imagine if Harbringer could remotely activate the defenses and completely cripple Cerberus when they thought it was safe enough to move their top teams into operating the bloody thing.

I may not exactly know how these sorts of things work but a bit of caution is certainly handy to have around.

Though in retrospect, it'd be nice to take The Illusive Man down a peg. That bugger pushed ALL the wrong buttons in 2.

Oh yeah, that's gonna come back and bite.

But hey! Some of the Paragon choices probably will too!

As will any ignored loaylty missions. Hooboy, those will be a mistake.

All my Shepards, from Renegade to Paragon, have blown the base up. But it's been less moral principle for the Renegade, and more a personal vendetta. Big time fan of vendettas.

[BRC]

Crazy theory about TiM

So, in the comics we learn that TiM got partially Husked by that artifact, that's why he has the crazy eyes.

Maybe that process messed with his mind, Husks are mindless zombies in service to the Reapers, maybe some of that got into TiM's head.

TiM is still pro-human, he dosn't want humanity wiped out and eaten. He wants to get the same deal the protheans got, he wants Humans to become the next Collectors.

[chiasaur11]

Crazy theory about TiM

So, in the comics we learn that TiM got partially Husked by that artifact, that's why he has the crazy eyes.

Maybe that process messed with his mind, Husks are mindless zombies in service to the Reapers, maybe some of that got into TiM's head.

TiM is still pro-human, he dosn't want humanity wiped out and eaten. He wants to get the same deal the protheans got, he wants Humans to become the next Collectors.

Like

Saren? Man. The more I deal with indoctrinated individuals, the more I like that scumbag. Sure, he hates humans, murders party members, and threatens to destroy all of civilization, but at least he has the courtesy to blow his own brains out at the end of it.

[HalfTangible]

Like

Saren? Man. The more I deal with indoctrinated individuals, the more I like that scumbag. Sure, he hates humans, murders party members, and threatens to destroy all of civilization, but at least he has the courtesy to blow his own brains out at the end of it.

He was the least indoctrinated of the beings we encounter, remember? He thought for most of ME1 that he was saving lives, whereas the others thought letting all of life get whiped out was a good thing.

[thegurullamen]

Like

Saren? Man. The more I deal with indoctrinated individuals, the more I like that scumbag. Sure, he hates humans, murders party members, and threatens to destroy all of civilization, but at least he has the courtesy to blow his own brains out at the end of it.

That's probably the nicest thing that's ever been said about him. They should put that on his tombstone.

[Illieas]

new Information:

mechanics spoilers:
Mass Effect 3's Shepard has a "SWAT turn" and new melee attacks, including kicks and punches.
a new Heavy Melee class takes advantage of these new melee attacks.

Shepard can roll, jump small gaps, and hit cover in a way likened to Max Payne.

Space battles are possible, but unconfirmed at this stage. The Engineer can build turrets, and weapons are customisable.

Shepard and his party members are able to cause damage dynamically to enemies. enemies have a weak spot that must be shot. Arms can be cut off and armour can be broken.

The combat is described as "more dynamic", forcing players to move quickly. "Game rhythm" is 10-15 per cent faster.

Environments are bigger. We'll see people walking, ships fighting and more detailed architecture. BioWare is looking for photo-realism by using new lightning techniques for the environments. Atmosphere is also better and there are more interactive elements in the scenarios.

A new scanning system has been implemented, and we won't drive the vehicles of previous Mass Effect games.






slight story spoilers:

New locations include New York, London, the Salarian home planet, a Quarian moon, and Mars. Developing each location takes six months, and BioWare test them as soon as they start working on them.

Pro-human organisation Cerberus, which acts against Shepard in the game, has mechs, assault units and "ninja-style" shock troops at its disposal.

Mysterious alien robot race the Reapers come in different sizes, from 500-600 metres to two kilometres. Sovereign, for example, is a two kilometre Reaper.


link (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-04-20-new-heavy-melee-class-for-mass-effect-3)

[Zevox]

So... what the heck is a "SWAT turn"? :smallconfused:

Also, melee class intrigues me, though I am a bit curious about the fact that they mentioned kicks and punches for melee attacks, but didn't say anything about melee weapons.

Zevox

[Illieas]

So... what the heck is a "SWAT turn"? :smallconfused:

Also, melee class intrigues me, though I am a bit curious about the fact that they mentioned kicks and punches for melee attacks, but didn't say anything about melee weapons.

Zevox

a SWAT turn is the move you do to move from one wall to next. like a door way you do a quick step turn to go from the right side of the door frame to the left side of the door frame.

melee weapons. i think i saw enemies with electrified police batons and sword. so probably those two

[VanBuren]

It's about time. Gears of War had the SWAT turn down ages ago.

[Ailurus]

new Information:

mechanics spoilers:
Shepard and his party members are able to cause damage dynamically to enemies. enemies have a weak spot that must be shot. Arms can be cut off and armour can be broken.



Mix feelings on a lot of the mechanics things, but that one upsets me. Optional weak points, and shooting off limbs is a good thing (like the legs on LOKIs in ME2). But being required to shoot weak spots just gets me upset. On one or two boss units its one thing, but if it shows up frequently no thank you.

[Zevox]

a SWAT turn is the move you do to move from one wall to next. like a door way you do a quick step turn to go from the right side of the door frame to the left side of the door frame.
So, a minor gameplay mechanic I'm unlikely to use much. Okay then.

Zevox

[Illieas]

Mix feelings on a lot of the mechanics things, but that one upsets me. Optional weak points, and shooting off limbs is a good thing (like the legs on LOKIs in ME2). But being required to shoot weak spots just gets me upset. On one or two boss units its one thing, but if it shows up frequently no thank you.


sorry when i wrote that enemies part should have state some enemies rather than all enemies. we don't know how many will have it probably elite unit.



So, a minor gameplay mechanic I'm unlikely to use much. Okay then.


it adds a bit of fluidity. so now you don't have disengage having your back on the wall walk over to the next wall. and place your back against that. now it is do a SWAT turn and boom your ready to shoot.

but if your a vanguard or a infiltrator kinda pointless. one is just gonna bouce around and the other can walk casually to next piece of cover

[Callos_DeTerran]

Mix feelings on a lot of the mechanics things, but that one upsets me. Optional weak points, and shooting off limbs is a good thing (like the legs on LOKIs in ME2). But being required to shoot weak spots just gets me upset. On one or two boss units its one thing, but if it shows up frequently no thank you.


From what Game Informer implies, it's not a requirement so much as 'there if you want to'. It says you can make fights easier by shooting off equipment/limbs/weakpoints but I doubt it'll be required to progress through the game.

Like getting headshots in ME2. Great if you can/want to pull them off, not really required though.

[chiasaur11]

From what Game Informer implies, it's not a requirement so much as 'there if you want to'. It says you can make fights easier by shooting off equipment/limbs/weakpoints but I doubt it'll be required to progress through the game.

Like getting headshots in ME2. Great if you can/want to pull them off, not really required though.

Or blowing apart LOKIs?

Sounds good.

[Illieas]

COmpanion spoils also from the article

Characters returning in Mass Effect 3 include love interests Liara T'Soni, Kaidan Alenko and Ashley Williams. Squad members Garrus, Wrex, Mordin and Legion are pencilled in (providing they didn't die), as is Anderson. Whether these old faces can be recruited remains to be seen.

[Zevox]

COmpanion spoils also from the article

Characters returning in Mass Effect 3 include love interests Liara T'Soni, Kaidan Alenko and Ashley Williams. Squad members Garrus, Wrex, Mordin and Legion are pencilled in (providing they didn't die), as is Anderson. Whether these old faces can be recruited remains to be seen.


We already knew that - that information is from the Game Informer article that prompted the creation of this thread.

Zevox

[Acanous]

you think they're intentionally saying nothing on tali to irk the fanboys?

[chiasaur11]

you think they're intentionally saying nothing on tali to irk the fanboys?

Rumor I heard, no confirmation, is that she's back...

And things can go really bad for her. Like, she could be better off dead. Massive schadenfreude time.

[The Rose Dragon]

Rumor I heard, no confirmation, is that she's back...

And things can go really bad for her. Like, she could be better off dead. Massive schadenfreude time.

Even worse than Mass Effect 2?

I'm strangely interested if that turns out true, because after all she's been through, I want to see how much further they can take torturing her.

[HalfTangible]

Even worse than Mass Effect 2?

I'm strangely interested if that turns out true, because after all she's been through, I want to see how much further they can take torturing her.

Physical torture instead of mental?

[chiasaur11]

Physical torture instead of mental?

Probably mental.

Judging from past records, Bioware finds it funnier.

[Dienekes]

Awesome! I love schadenfreude time!

[Mewtarthio]

Rumor I heard, no confirmation, is that she's back...

And things can go really bad for her. Like, she could be better off dead. Massive schadenfreude time.

The cheerful, relatively young girl who's still barely hanging on to her innocence? In a story featuring the apocalypse? Hey, I've got another spoiler for you:
Mass Effect 3 could very well feature the return of Commander Shepard! :tongue:
I only laugh to keep from weeping. It's like watching a happy couple in a Joss Whedon series. You know torment and suffering are inevitable, but... whyyyyyy?

[Acanous]

Hey, look what they did with DA2, only recurring character was Anders, and he was from the expansion :p

I don't take any casting calls for granted with Bioware. While the fans would riot if they didn't put Tali in ME3, the origional release of ME2 had Liara and Ashley/Kaidan only in as camios.

of course, in my playthrough, Tali is the hero of the migrant fleet, the concubine of Commander Shepard, and chief engineer of the Normandy, so :p

[Zevox]

Hey, look what they did with DA2, only recurring character was Anders, and he was from the expansion :p
The Dragon Age and Mass Effect series are rather significantly different. Mass Effect is a trilogy of games telling a single overarching story in which all of the games star the same character. Dragon Age is a series simply set in the same world during the same age (century). For the former, recurring party members makes a great deal of sense. For the latter, not so much.

Zevox

[Acanous]

Although with DA2 it really looks like they're taking it in a much more ME direction, with Hawke being the new Shepard and the plot focusing more on your party.

[Eliirae]

Although with DA2 it really looks like they're taking it in a much more ME direction, with Hawke being the new Shepard and the plot focusing more on your party.

Well the thing with dragon age 2 and only one recurring character is simple: They followed the Grey Warden. Once the GW disappeared without a trace or whatever, they decided to move on with their lives, much like your crew in ME1 did at the start of ME2. It just so happens that you ran across some characters that were with the warden in DA2 because you're a completely different character.

In ME3 you're still Shepard. All your crew still know you, and would only leave if 1: you died. 2: they were ordered to. 3 in the case of Tali: Had very serious personal issues to take care of. Don't know why personal issues with the Geth would take priority over being with Shepard and fending off the reaper invasion, but oh well.

That and storyline reasons aside, it would be EXTREMELY unfair if only one gender's possible love interest from ME2 made it into ME3 (Garrus) with the other disappearing from the face of the earth.

[Gamerlord]

PC gamer has two new screens.
The second one looks a lot like ME2.
Link. (http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/04/21/mass-effect-3-first-screens-released/)

[chiasaur11]

PC gamer has two new screens.
The second one looks a lot like ME2.
Link. (http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/04/21/mass-effect-3-first-screens-released/)

Except for the lack of Shepard.

Where is she, anyway? So few official screenshots have her anywhere.

[HalfTangible]

Except for the lack of Shepard.

Where is she, anyway? So few official screenshots have her anywhere.

Male default shepard is treated as default. They gotta focus on one or the other and they picked male.

[Androgeus]

Except for the lack of Shepard.

Where is she, anyway? So few official screenshots have her anywhere.

While I agree that hardly any offical sceenshots show Shepard, I think you're a tad confused. Shepard is male, silly. :smalltongue:

[Zorg]

Shepard is male, silly.

No, she's definately female:

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/40k/ME2LotSBDM.jpg

and Liara should know, she's a scientist :smalltongue:

[Calemyr]

This isn't Mythbusters. You don't get to reject reality and substitute your own. Canon Shep is male. Awesome Shep is female.

[Zevox]

This isn't Mythbusters. You don't get to reject reality and substitute your own. Canon Shep is male. Awesome Shep is female.
Except that there is no canon Shep. Advertising Shep is male, but is not canon.

Zevox

[memnarch]

Except that there is no canon Shep. Advertising Shep is male, but is not canon.

Zevox

The default pre-made Shepard is a male Soldier named John, with the Earthborn/Sole Survivor profile if I remember right. or the wiki is right

[Zorg]

Default =/= canon.

The secondary sources, including the ME2 prequel comic, are very non-specific about Shepard's race and gender - Miranda and Jacob even comment that looking at the recovered corpse you couldn't tell if 'the Commander was male or female'.
So yeah, it seems the intention is pretty heavily towards there being no canon Shep, but default is Boron McGenericface the angsty gangland army dude.

[chiasaur11]

Default =/= canon.

The secondary sources, including the ME2 prequel comic, are very non-specific about Shepard's race and gender - Miranda and Jacob even comment that looking at the recovered corpse you couldn't tell if 'the Commander was male or female'.
So yeah, it seems the intention is pretty heavily towards there being no canon Shep, but default is Boron McGenericface the angsty gangland army dude.

Who is awful and a failure at everything.

I look forward to seeing how he mucked up the suicide mission. If there is no default for the next one, we can assume he died.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Who is awful and a failure at everything.

I look forward to seeing how he mucked up the suicide mission. If there is no default for the next one, we can assume he died.

Not necessarily. Though that was because I simply played that default through Mass Effects 1 and 2, so his outcomes were likely very different than just the default.

[Dienekes]

Not necessarily. Though that was because I simply played that default through Mass Effects 1 and 2, so his outcomes were likely very different than just the default.

Nah he means if you just pick default character for ME2 without bringing in your own it seems Shep picks every renegade-stupid option, and this is coming from someone whose favorite Shep has strong renegade tendencies.

[chiasaur11]

Nah he means if you just pick default character for ME2 without bringing in your own it seems Shep picks every renegade-stupid option, and this is coming from someone whose favorite Shep has strong renegade tendencies.

Yup.

Wrex dead. Council dead. Udina in charge. Parasini dead.

You get the idea.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Hey, look what they did with DA2, only recurring character was Anders, and he was from the expansion :p

Also: Isabella.
Bodahn.
Sandal.
Zevran
Leliana.

[Dienekes]

Also: Isabella.
Bodahn.
Sandal.
Zevran
Leliana.

Isn't it obvious he means squadmates? And Leliana appears in 1 cut scene and Zevran only in a rather pointless side quest. Color me not impressed.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Isn't it obvious he means squadmates? And Leliana appears in 1 cut scene and Zevran only in a rather pointless side quest. Color me not impressed.

Not true, he shows up to help you in the final battle, depending on your conversations with him.

[Dienekes]

Not true, he shows up to help you in the final battle, depending on your conversations with him.

Where he has no dialogue or anything to indicate he's actually there except that his name appears if you look close enough. I'm not sure that even counts. It could have been a real epic moment to see those you helped along the way come and defend you against the villain, but no. It's just a name over a figure.

[Acanous]

If Tali showed up in ME3 the same way Leliana shows up in DA2, the fans would riot. Hard. Possibly harder than if she didn't show up at all. (Because that way, we'd all assume it was DLC to be released later :p)

Also, Zevran helps in the final battle? Whoa.

[Thanatos 51-50]

If Tali showed up in ME3 the same way Leliana shows up in DA2, the fans would riot. Hard. Possibly harder than if she didn't show up at all. (Because that way, we'd all assume it was DLC to be released later :p)

Also, Zevran helps in the final battle? Whoa.

Brutally murdered the boss too fast for Zev to help me. Or maybe he left after the three-way. I dunno.

That being said - he said returning "Character", not "Companion" or "Squaddie". He was sorely wrong.
Isabella even gets UPGRADED to Squaddie from "Unimportant side-character who teaches a specialization".

Also: I forgot to mention Flemeth, Merril, (Who was a temporary companion in DA:O) and the entire rest of the Dalish clan which somehow made its way up from Ferelden. And Alistair.

[Zorg]

So, how 'bout them mass effects?

[Illieas]

newer spoilers
Characters:
The new characters list show new confirmed squad mates as below:

-Tali: Has unfinished business with Shepard.
-Jack: Had a character redesign. Was a popular romance option.

Confirmed Part of Squad:
-Liara
-Garrus
-Kaiden/Ashley (Has achieved Spectre status)
-James Sanders

Present:
-Admiral Anderson
-EDI
-Joker
-The Illusive Man
-Mordin (The plot dictates that he stays close to Shepard)
-Legion
(And, from Game Informer earlier, Wrex)


Locations:

Confirmed Locations:

-Salarian Homeworld
-Quarian Homeworld Rannoch (The Geth Occupied One)
-Mars (A human-mining operation)
-A human mega city that formed when Vancouver and Seattle merged.
Add: That’s where you’ll spend your time on Earth. So not London or New York like previously mentioned. Describes the planet: ‘It’s curved, futuristic buildings bathe in beautiful light as the sea laps into the waterfront and docks.’ They also saw the aftermath in which the Reapers decimate it.
Additional Details- Combat and Plot Info


mechanics

Heavy Melee Attacks

-Class based one hit kill melee move.
-There is a new charged-up melee attack where Shepard uses his Omni-Tool to inflicting a big burning hit.

-The Turret that Engineers can use won’t kill enemies, but distract them.




Additional Details:


-Casey Hudson says, the game will have some epic moments, as well as ‘smaller, more personal moments’ that exceeds the previous 2 games. The player will start realising things from Shepard’s personal life. He will have to deal with the consequences of the sacrifices he’s had to make.
-Obvious: Your choices will all have an impact in ME 3 such as the genophage, the collector base, your LI choices etc.
-New enemy type: The Cannibal. Part Batarian, part Human and part Reaper. Consumes other enemies in combat to gain strength.
-Gunfights are quicker and more deadly (confirmation).
-Visually it’s tapping the heels of games such as Killzone 3 and Crysis 2, with 6 months development time left.
-The Rachni decision may haunt you in ME 3.
-Character customisation will be as extensive as ever.
-The action, rather than the all-linear affair of ME 2, will be more along the lines of Uncharted.
-New Cerberus troops are called Phantoms and Assassins.
-Shepard faces full-on bosses in the game’s story. Some are really huge. One part, you have to lure a Reaper up to a Thresher Maw so they can duke it out.
-”Many of the core story levels are built around the largest, most dramatic moments in the galaxy.”
-The Mass Effect series has sold over 7 million copies.

[Thanatos 51-50]

newer spoilers
Characters:
The new characters list show new confirmed squad mates as below:

-Tali: Has unfinished business with Shepard.
-Jack: Had a character redesign. Was a popular romance option.



-Tail: Set down your Torches and Pitchforks, men. Seriously.
-Jack: Thank the Goddess. Please tell me the new design includes a shirt.

[Muz]

newer spoilers
Characters:

Confirmed Locations:

-Salarian Homeworld
-Quarian Homeworld Rannoch (The Geth Occupied One)
-Mars (A human-mining operation)
-A human mega city that formed when Vancouver and Seattle merged.
Add: That’s where you’ll spend your time on Earth. So not London or New York like previously mentioned. Describes the planet: ‘It’s curved, futuristic buildings bathe in beautiful light as the sea laps into the waterfront and docks.’ They also saw the aftermath in which the Reapers decimate it.
Additional Details- Combat and Plot Info


Wow--Vancouver and Seattle are pretty darned far away. (150 miles, or so?) So much for Tacoma and Olympia and all the other cities in between that got swallowed up. (Awww, I don't want to share my city with VANCOUVER! They'll just get in the way! What about when my friends come over?! MOMMMMM!!!) :smallwink:

Edited to remove spoiler tags because, as Zevox points out, this is a spoiler thread...

[Zevox]

Query: Why are you guys putting things in spoilers when the thread title itself is marked "Spoilers!" :smallconfused:


-Jack: Had a character redesign. Was a popular romance option.
Very good to know. I'll second the hope that she has shirt of some sort now, and add that I hope her combat abilities were redesigned so that she's more useful now.


-Mordin (The plot dictates that he stays close to Shepard)
Getting a bit anxious about him not being mentioned as a squad-mate thus far though. :smallfrown:


-The action, rather than the all-linear affair of ME 2, will be more along the lines of Uncharted.
I've never played Uncharted - what does this mean? :smallconfused:

Zevox

[Illieas]

Query: Why are you guys putting things in spoilers when the thread title itself is marked "Spoilers!" :smallconfused:


force of habit also because there are various spoilers like mechanics which some people want to know. and then there is story base spoilers that people would not want to know, such as companions and worlds that could give away some surprise.

[Illieas]

BTW apparently the melee class do not exist.

links (http://twitter.com/#!/truffle/status/61231745139355648)

PS3 magazine scans are out
here (http://www.nanoaugur.net/masseffect3/)

[Zorg]

Yes, some people may only want mechanics spoilers, but nothing else, so tags would still be appreciated.

[Zevox]

Frankly I don't see how mechanics qualify as "spoilers" at all. Isn't the entire point of spoilers that they "spoil" the story? Mechanics have nothing to do with that. Heck, I can't honestly say that much we've learned so far even qualifies as a mild "spoiler" in my mind, given all we've heard about the story is little hints and extremely basic setup.

Zevox

[Fawkes]

I find it odd the way PSM says James Sanders' inclusion means no Jacob. I mean, I'm not complaining, Jacob sucks, but did Bioware actually say that, or are they projecting?

[Illieas]

I find it odd the way PSM says James Sanders' inclusion means no Jacob. I mean, I'm not complaining, Jacob sucks, but did Bioware actually say that, or are they projecting?

there seems to be quite a bit of speculation on their part so i guess it best to say the new information should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Couldn't they like, turn Jacob into a cyborg ninja and make him awesome or something?

[Dienekes]

Couldn't they like, turn Jacob into a cyborg ninja and make him awesome or something?

Well they did manage to make Liara interesting in ME2. So, I suppose it's possible.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I find it odd the way PSM says James Sanders' inclusion means no Jacob. I mean, I'm not complaining, Jacob sucks, but did Bioware actually say that, or are they projecting?

I'd assume that PSM is assuming the standard "Your starting Squad is Two Other Humans Who Are Love Interests" set-up. IE, the one also present in both of the other Mass Effects (Except Jenkins, who doesn't count because he dies before the first fight). And, since Snaders is showing up, that ticks off the "Male Human" checkbox.

[Mewtarthio]

Couldn't they like, turn Jacob into a cyborg ninja and make him awesome or something?

He's already a psychic privateer. Yes, he mentions that around the start of the game. He is so anti-awesome that he manages to bland away being a pirate who can kill you with his brain. The guy could charge into battle on a zombie tyrannosaurus and nobody would give him a second glance.

[VanBuren]

Wow--Vancouver and Seattle are pretty darned far away. (150 miles, or so?) So much for Tacoma and Olympia and all the other cities in between that got swallowed up. (Awww, I don't want to share my city with VANCOUVER! They'll just get in the way! What about when my friends come over?! MOMMMMM!!!) :smallwink:

Edited to remove spoiler tags because, as Zevox points out, this is a spoiler thread...

I'm not sure why, but for whatever reason I instantly assumed that they were referring to Vancouver, BC. I mean, it's not like we're not friendly enough with Canada that it would happen.

Anyway, not really looking forward to the Reapers tearing up my home. Definitely gonna have to kill them all for that slight.

[Xondoure]

So... Battle in Seattle? :smalltongue: