Making a legendary villain: what would the greatest warrior in the world be?

[FMArthur]

Hey GitP, I'm having trouble thinking up an NPC's actual character build right now. The guy's backstory is pretty simple: he's a collector of heroes. Much of his life has been spent fighting wars, and more specifically the last half of his life has been orchestrating elaborate plans behind the scenes in politics to produce the optimal circumstances to give rise to the biggest, strongest heroes. When their stories are finished and their legends recorded, their marks firmly planted on history's pages, he fights them in single combat and has the corpses turned to stone for a place in his private Hall of Heroes.

Obviously, one such hero will be a player character, who happens to be a Swordsage.

But that's all I've got for this NPC, and I'm sort of drawing a blank for the 'greatest warrior in the world'. Is that a Warblade 20, a Swordsage 20 (even that is not real information, given that those classes are each designed to accommodate many types of melee characters), or does he have a ton of melee dips, does he have that Master of Masks level for proficiency with every exotic weapon, etc? The character's story might sound like scholarly knowledge-based classes would fit best, like Factotum or Bard material, but in reality all he actually needs to fit the fluff is not being illiterate.

I'd prefer he not something as mindless as a Barbarian charger - the man's an expert and should be able to show it through skill more than strength. I'm open to a gish character, but keep in mind this is supposed to be primarily a melee man. Massive damage cheese is unwelcome, given that I will be sending this against a player (or players).

What do you think, Playground? Can you think of any useful classes, feats, maneuvers, spells or even similar-sounding characters of your own to take ideas from? I don't even have a race written down.

[Frozen_Feet]

Warblade 20 // Haberdash the Masked 20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633). XD

Hey, he's an NPC. He's allowed to cheat a litte. Not that using gestalt is that big a cheat...

[FMArthur]

Nah, I don't want him to cheat at all. Kind of takes away from the thing. I'd be okay with giving him improbable ability scores, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go from the player character creation rules. But thanks for reminding me about Haberdash, anyway! :smallbiggrin:

[Kaeso]

What about a cleric with the war domain and DMM cheese? That's a pretty dangerous melee monster. Add the knowledge domain for fluff if it would suit you.

[Douglas]

For a supremely great warrior who is known far more for his skill than anything else, I'd definitely go with something from ToB. Personally, I'd pick Swordsage as the base class and Master of Nine would be a perfect fluff fit for the combat skill focus. A scholar of combat who has mastered (or at least learned the basics of) every major combat style in the world.

You could try looking up one of the various attempts to get all 9 9th level maneuvers in one level 20 non-gestalt character, but all of those that I've seen seem bizarre and overly contrived, sacrificing sense, logic, and lower level performance for the overriding goal. Plus, they all used some questionable rules interpretations (particularly using maneuvers from items to satisfy prerequisites), and with all 9 of those maneuvers being strikes there's so much redundancy that it's actually not a very useful goal. The best maneuver readied lists usually have a lot of variety in them.

I have a Swordsage/Master of Nine build I put together for a still-ongoing game that branches out into all 9 disciplines, riding the borderline of just enough maneuvers in each to qualify for cherry-picking what I thought were the best from each school. That game is still in the low levels, but I planned maneuver selection and feats all the way to level 20 because satisfying every prereq while spreading maneuver selection that thin requires that kind of advance planning, and I might be willing to give you that list. That character uses two significant house rules, though: that ToB PrCs advance base class maneuver swap progression (needed for balance, matches probable RAI, every group should use this house rule imo), and the Swordsage AC bonus counts as a "dodge-like" ability and satisfies the Dodge prereq of Master of Nine (the DM sprung this on me as a welcome surprise). The Dodge one can be ignored, one or two flaws will get you enough feats anyway. The other house rule, I'd strongly suggest implementing in your group if you haven't already.

[Anxe]

I'd go with the Samurai base class just so you can shame your players.

"You're having trouble fighting him? Come on! He's just a Samurai!"

As for the most successful warrior builds in my campaign? Hexblade Two-weapon Fighter was the most successful. Followed by Barbarian. After Barbarian was Soul Knife/Pyrokintecist. Sounds like a cool campaign idea. Did you get it from Lufia or did you think it up on your own?

[McSmack]

well technically speaking 'greatest warrior in the world' doesn't mean he has to be the most optimized. It just means he has to be better than anyone else.
A level 10 fighter is the 'greatest warrior in the world' if everyone one else is below lvl 5.

If the guy has been pulling major political strings he's gonna need some Diplomacy skills, and contacts.

I'm wondering what level the party member is going to be when he faces off against this NPC. That could really impact your choices.

Assuming from your post that he's level 20. I'd go with Warblade, because I like it more. And the image I'm getting of this guy looks like someone who'd be wearing armor. Plus the Warblade has more of a tactical feel to me, whereas the swordsage is more mystical.

By lvl 20 he could easily have bought off a few LA's as well, so that might help beef him up.

I'd also bump his gear up too. If he's got the power and influence to affect the world at this level, he's prolly got some pretty sweet bling.

[Cog]

If the guy is going to have some mooks, War Chief from Miniatures Handbook could be fun. He can inspire a frenzy that burns his mooks out to make them deal more damage and hit better (but not by too much), gets charisma boosts that could pump DCs for things like Goad, Frightful Presence, or even just Divine Grace saves/etc, and gets a reflex save to shove a mook in the way of any attacks that would strike him.

[JaronK]

A Factotum of War could work. Or, to slap together some optimization, consider a Factotum 8/Fighter 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Hexblade 1/Duskblade 1/OA Samurai 1/Ranger 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1 with a major bloodline (Titan might be interesting, but there are other options). Due to the way bloodlines work with initiator levels, this guy has an IL of 20.5 in all three martial adept classes, allowing him to use lots of high level maneuvers... and as a Factotum 8, he can use multiple standard action maneuvers per round. He might need a few items like Novice Shadow Hand Gloves and a Novice Iron Heart Vest to give him enough maneuvers to have prerequisites for the big ones... but he could indeed have all of the 9th level martial maneuvers.

Note that bloodlines don't actually increase your ECL, so he's a 17th level character (but has the experience of a 20th level character). You could even give him three more levels (Master of Nine would be obvious) before he goes epic. And note as an OA Samurai he does get an ancestral weapon, which means he's going to have an awesome custom magic weapon as a treasure to get from him.

Also, he's going to need Leadership or something to make sure his minions keep him from having to fight the whole party at once. Give him a battlefield control caster who can isolate single members of the party so he can fight them in one on one combat.

JaronK

[Zonugal]

How do you envision this guy fighting his foes? Does he always do one on one or is he the type to literally go through an entire army?

[FMArthur]

A Factotum of War could work. Or, to slap together some optimization, consider a Factotum 8/Fighter 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Hexblade 1/Duskblade 1/OA Samurai 1/Ranger 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1 with a major bloodline (Titan might be interesting, but there are other options). Due to the way bloodlines work with initiator levels, this guy has an IL of 20.5 in all three martial adept classes, allowing him to use lots of high level maneuvers... and as a Factotum 8, he can use multiple standard action maneuvers per round. He might need a few items like Novice Shadow Hand Gloves and a Novice Iron Heart Vest to give him enough maneuvers to have prerequisites for the big ones... but he could indeed have all of the 9th level martial maneuvers.

Note that bloodlines don't actually increase your ECL, so he's a 17th level character (but has the experience of a 20th level character). You could even give him three more levels (Master of Nine would be obvious) before he goes epic. And note as an OA Samurai he does get an ancestral weapon, which means he's going to have an awesome custom magic weapon as a treasure to get from him.

Also, he's going to need Leadership or something to make sure his minions keep him from having to fight the whole party at once. Give him a battlefield control caster who can isolate single members of the party so he can fight them in one on one combat.

JaronK

This sounds really good; I think I will mostly stick to that and maybe try and squeeze in some of Haberdash's tricks (they are very low-investment in terms of requirements). Leadership is off-limits in my campaigns: you can hire people as you like and you don't need a feat to be in command of men. A major bloodline also sounds cool flavorwise. I really am sticking to only building to ECL 20, though, so that's 17 levels. I haven't even decided how this campaign will handle epic levels if it goes on long enough to get there, but since I don't think I'll do it in any normal way I want to keep away from using epic rules for a while.

I'll post what I've got tomorrow.

edit:

How do you envision this guy fighting his foes? Does he always do one on one or is he the type to literally go through an entire army?
Ideally, both! He sure as hell better be able to handle both war and duels since he's been in so many of each.

[Telonius]

I'd go with the Samurai base class just so you can shame your players.

"You're having trouble fighting him? Come on! He's just a Samurai!"

As for the most successful warrior builds in my campaign? Hexblade Two-weapon Fighter was the most successful. Followed by Barbarian. After Barbarian was Soul Knife/Pyrokintecist. Sounds like a cool campaign idea. Did you get it from Lufia or did you think it up on your own?

I have a half-mad idea along these lines... WarbladeX/Artificer1/Green Star Adept10/WarbladeX, level 25-ish. (Fudge it so that Artificer allows him to qualify for GSA).

[Zonugal]

How do you envision this guy fighting his foes? Does he always do one on one or is he the type to literally go through an entire army?Ideally, both! He sure as hell better be able to handle both war and duels since he's been in so many of each.

If so I might advocate two levels of totemist for the incredible boost towards versatility but primarily for combat you will be able to bind Shedu Crown which grants you immunity to being pushed back via bull rush (or any spell which initiates a bull rush) as well as giving you a trample equal to double your speed. Just envision a character throwing off the efforts of giants and than smashing 80ft. of soldiers under his feet.

[JaronK]

A major bloodline also sounds cool flavorwise. I really am sticking to only building to ECL 20, though, so that's 17 levels.

Bloodlines don't increase ECL (while they do take more experience, the reduced ECL means you gain experience faster... so in a normal party setting, by level 20 someone with a major bloodline probably is level 20 along with the rest of the party... with the exp of a level 23 character).

JaronK

[RaginChangeling]

I think a decent question would be what kind of weapon do you want him wielding? I mean, I usually like to subvert people's expectations of what the 'Greatest Warrior' is so I'd go something with Hulking Hurler and Warhulk and have him throw around some impressive Returning throwing weapons. Or do the thing with the Gnomish Quickrazor and Factotum.

[Cog]

Bloodlines don't increase ECL...
Considering that this is for an NPC, it's CR that's relevant, not ECL.

[Cespenar]

Just go with something like Warblade 20 or Swordsage 20 as you first said, but be sure to focus on different disciplines than the Swordsage in your party for the sake of a more colorful final battle.

Also, make sure you get some Diamond Mind, because it messes with time and is awesome.

[JaronK]

Considering that this is for an NPC, it's CR that's relevant, not ECL.

Bloodlines don't increase CR either IIRC. And the OP did specify "ECL 20."

JaronK

[FMArthur]

Yeah, my mistake there. Bloodlines are so wierd. :smallsigh:

[Tytalus]

A crusader is an easy fighter that keeps on going pretty much forever. If you want to go crank that up, go for Ruby Knight Vindicator - more actions are always good for a single NPC.


Or, to slap together some optimization, consider a Factotum 8/Fighter 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Hexblade 1/Duskblade 1/OA Samurai 1/Ranger 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1 with a major bloodline (Titan might be interesting, but there are other options). Due to the way bloodlines work with initiator levels, this guy has an IL of 20.5 in all three martial adept classes, allowing him to use lots of high level maneuvers...

Given that the OP doesn't want to cheat, I assume he doesn't want to cheese it up (bloodlines, especially with initiators) either, but YMMV.

[Sacrieur]

Warblade 20 / Swiftblade 20 / Swordspell 1 / Wizard 15 / Abjurant Champion 5

Or alternatively, Warblade 20 / Swiftblade 20.

[JaronK]

Given that the OP doesn't want to cheat, I assume he doesn't want to cheese it up (bloodlines, especially with initiators) either, but YMMV.

He's trying to make a level 20ish melee only character that's actually a serious threat... some cheese will be needed. Otherwise, a simple Cleric would be far better.

JaronK

[Cespenar]

He's trying to make a level 20ish melee only character that's actually a serious threat... some cheese will be needed. Otherwise, a simple Cleric would be far better.

JaronK

He's aiming for an one on one with the group's Swordsage. No cheese whatsoever is needed.

[Endarire]

Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon). Preferably a Trancer.

If he's a leader, possibly give him Sanctum Spell, Enlarge Spell, and War Weaver levels.

[JaronK]

He's aiming for an one on one with the group's Swordsage. No cheese whatsoever is needed.

Consider the fact that he'll probably have NPC wealth (if he doesn't, winning will give the Swordsage WAY too much loot). As such, he's at a severe disadvantage.

JaronK

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ideally, both! He sure as hell better be able to handle both war and duels since he's been in so many of each.

Then I'd go with warblade, focused on iron heart and diamond mind.

For the ability to take down an army, iron heart has mithral tornado and adamantine hurricane, and diamond mind has time stands still.

For the ability to fight one on one, iron heart has strike of perfect clarity, and diamond mind has the insightful strike and gem blade lines.

For good stuff all around, there's diamond mind's saving throw boosting maneuvers, and iron heart has wall of blades.

[Douglas]

I don't think anything a Warblade gets can really match Inferno Blast for taking out armies.

[erikun]

Wouldn't the Master of Nine make more sense as the "greatest swordsman"? I haven't played the class, though, so I can't say for sure.

I also put together a Sublime Chord/Jade Phoenix Mage at one point. Bard 8/Warblade 1, take a level of Jade Phoenix Mage (the first level doesn't grant spellcasting), take a level of Sublime Chord, then 9 more levels of Jade Phoenix Mage. You end up with a character with 9th level spellcasting of wizard/sorcerer spells, +17 BAB, and the ability to Inspire Courage themselves for +2 through Song of the White Raven. Bard 7/Warblade 2 will work as well, with better combat maneuvers but Inspire Courage only grants a +1. If you can fudge the character up to 21st level, then Bard 9 can give himself Inspire Greatness instead.

Bard 8 / Warblade 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 9

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't think anything a Warblade gets can really match Inferno Blast for taking out armies.

I don't think a swordsage can match a warblade one on one.

[Epsilon Rose]

If you don't mind homebrew the enyo dragon from the 30+ dragons thread on this forum would be fairly apropriate. It's a bipedal true dragon that has manuevers instead of casting. It would explain how he's lived through so many wars, and a great werm wielding an (insert artifact weapon here) makes for a rather nice BBEG.
I'm not sure if you'd actualy need much in the way of classes ontop of that, but I'd go with something like binder or dragonfire adept to complement his already impressive martial ability rather than just stacking on it.

[Runestar]

For simplicity's sake, I like the idea of a warblade/master of nine combination. Your feats are pretty much spent qualifying for said prc, so no headaches over what to take. You get a wider selection of maneuvers as well as slots readied as well.

[herrhauptmann]

An idea for his tactics,
The party makes it to his throne room where he's waiting with minions and cohorts galore, and he challenges the swordsage to single combat.
He'll actually keep his word of single combat, even if he starts losing. But if the party intervenes directly, his minions will as well. If the party has given the swordsage some buffs, his minions will give him similar buffs.

Bonus points if he's not left handed.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Warblade's still my top choice, as iron heart and diamond mind are basically the two best disciplines there are.

You could also make him gestalt, warblade//fighter or swordsage//fighter. Though crusader//fighter also is good, but that requires him to be religious.

[Claudius Maximus]

Yeah I can't imagine this guy having less than 16 BAB, so I wouldn't go with full on swordsage. I'd do Warblade or some kind of multiclass (Master of Nine might show up too).

[TechnOkami]

They guy. 'nuff said.

[Geigan]

I think warblade probably fits best. High int for manipulating nations that also benefits him in combat. High cha would be good but not necessary since he doesn't need to influence directly so much as scheme behind the scenes.

I personally don't like master of nine mechanically before 20th lvl and especially if I'm already that far into warblade. Dual stance is my favorite part of master of nine and warblade does that better with it's 20 feature. Though the extra maneuvers and stances are nice, they could be gotten through feats since you wouldn't be using so many feats qualifying for MoN. And do remember that the really cool maneuvers he'd want to get from the new styles mean he needs to hit prereqs in his MoN lvls eating up new maneuvers that he'd probably like to spend on 9th lvl ones.

I don't see the need for many of the styles he loses by not getting MoN(setting sun, shadow hand, devoted spirit, desert wind) also. If the guy is the greatest warrior in the world that doesn't mean he has to be the best at every style, only the best at HIS style that also happens to be the best versus anything else. Plus I'm thinking there's an emphasis on skill here versus quasi-mystical powers which the other 4 styles bring more of(or quasi-divine in the case of dev. spirit). Not to say he couldn't pick and choose through the extra maneuver feats, whatever works well for his own style I think he'd take.

Also what would work would be crusader though he'd also have to be divinely inspired or something which is a bit of additional flavor that I'm not sure if the OP wants. Swordsage fits scholarly knowledge bent perfectly though I think the low BaB hurts the greatest warrior claim. Of course the feel of each class is pretty subjective and you can bend em every which way to make em fit whatever you want fluff wise. I just think warblade has the best feel for the epitome of the traditional martial character that also manipulates behind the scenes with all the skill and guile of a master tactician. Just my 2 bits.

[Seharvepernfan]

I would make him a low epic, personally. Like, warblade 20 with additional levels in master of the nine.

Id also give him pc levels of wealth, and at least one artifact item, like a minor artifact sword or something. But otherwise dont give him any epic items, just spend all that extra post-twentieth level money on non epic items to give him a well rounded list of weapons and protections. So, he should have several different types of weapons that are each heavily enhanced.

You really dont even need to give him especially powerful stats.
Hell, just starting at 1st level with the elite array he could have something like
Str 30
Dex 22
Con 22
Int 22
from ability enhancing items and wishes.

Really though, your biggest problem will be finding an optimal selection of maneuvers and feats.

[Eldariel]

I do think you should make him dedicated to beating other warriors, then. Warblade-shell definitely works; it doesn't take much for all the Warblade goodies to rock your socks off. Depending on the amount of levels you have to work with, I'd consider Factotum 8/Warblade -> into low epics, with Master of the Nine in the mix.

I do think you want some Fightery levels in the mix for the feats; at the very least you'll want to have Elusive Target, so he can deal with the most common way of nuking with tons of damage on melee. You could take the two levels of Barbarian for Pounce and Improved Trip, too. Build into Knock-Down from Improved Trip and use Pounce in conjunction with all the maneuvers to expand upon their functionality.


I'd also try to pick at least Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment on him. Those build pretty well off the prerequisites of Master of the Nine. Factotum 8/Barbarian 2/Warblade Dozen/Master of the Nine 5.

[Particle_Man]

For how long has he been doing this? Is the warrior meant to be long-lived?

You could have an insane elf (Warblade/Eternal Blade).

You could have a rakshasha? A dragon? An actual devil?