What tier is the swift hunter?

[Kaeso]

We all know that the ranger and scout are both tier 4 on their own, but combining them with the swift hunter feat makes for quite a versatile character. What tier is the swift hunter in your opinion(s)?

[SurlySeraph]

Versatile? It's pretty much a ranger that does more damage. Scout adds Trapfinding, but rangers can get that with an ACF anyway, and it lacks the social skills and Use Magic Device that help Rogues be more versatile. I'd say still Tier 4, just better than most Tier 4s.

[faceroll]

If you want to bump ranger up a tier, check out Mystic Ranger or whatever the spellcasting archer one is, from Dragon, and the Champions of Valor feat that lets you learn wizard spells.


Versatile? It's pretty much a ranger that does more damage. Scout adds Trapfinding, but rangers can get that with an ACF anyway, and it lacks the social skills and Use Magic Device that help Rogues be more versatile. I'd say still Tier 4, just better than most Tier 4s.

/thread

[true_shinken]

If you want to bump ranger up a tier, check out Mystic Ranger or whatever the spellcasting archer one is, from Dragon, and the Champions of Valor feat that lets you learn wizard spells.

That's not a single tier bump :smallamused:
Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order is a light version of Lightning Warrior

[Greenish]

That's not a single tier bump :smallamused:
Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order is a light version of Lightning WarriorAt least 'till mid-levels.

But yeah, Swift Hunter is a nice tier 4 in most cases. A volley archer might even beat it in straight damage, with enough trying.

[Grendus]

Generally speaking, the gestalt feats don't move a class up a tier, but they do improve them. The reason you don't see a lot of improvement - you'll notice that as you move up the tiers, magic becomes more common. T1's are full casters with dynamic access to their whole list, T2's are full casters with limited access to their whole list. T3's are mostly full casters with access to a limited list, T4's are mostly partial casters with access to a limited list. T5's have no magic. T6's have an extra helping of suck.

The gestalt feats don't give any extra magic. Thus, no tier bump.

[Greenish]

Generally speaking, the gestalt feats don't move a class up a tier, but they do improve them. The reason you don't see a lot of improvement - you'll notice that as you move up the tiers, magic becomes more common. T1's are full casters with dynamic access to their whole list, T2's are full casters with limited access to their whole list. T3's are mostly full casters with access to a limited list, T4's are mostly partial casters with access to a limited list. T5's have no magic. T6's have an extra helping of suck.Well, many half-casters make it to T3 (say, Psionic Warrior, Duskblade, Bard, Factotum), while said tier only holds two full casters (Beguiler & Dread Necromancer). T4 are mostly mundane characters or alternative systems. T5 has a full caster.

[faceroll]

That's not a single tier bump :smallamused:
Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order is a light version of Lightning Warrior

Hardly. Without anything higher than 6th level spells, you'd be better off going wizard into swiftblade, erudite into slayer, archivist into archivist, or druid.

[Doc Roc]

Hardly. Without anything higher than 6th level spells, you'd be better off going wizard into swiftblade, erudite into slayer, archivist into archivist, or druid.

Swifffffffffffftttttbladeeee, your bladddesss are the swiffffttttesssssttttt.

[Qwertystop]

Well, many half-casters make it to T3 (say, Psionic Warrior, Duskblade, Bard, Factotum), while said tier only holds two full casters (Beguiler & Dread Necromancer). T4 are mostly mundane characters or alternative systems. T5 has a full caster.

What's the T5 Full Caster? How horribly was it messed up to get dropped that low? I know you're not talking about the Truenamer, that's off the list.

[true_shinken]

Hardly. Without anything higher than 6th level spells, you'd be better off going wizard into swiftblade, erudite into slayer, archivist into archivist, or druid.
Mystic Ranger with SotAO is tier 1 until level 10. Then it lags behind.



What's the T5 Full Caster? How horribly was it messed up to get dropped that low? I know you're not talking about the Truenamer, that's off the list.
Healer.

[MeeposFire]

Yea it is subtle but it has never actually been spell levels themselves that make classes so good. It is the type of effects you can use that makes classes so good so spell lists and the like are where the power is. So even though healers and warmages have 9th level spells they are much lesser in ability than say clerics and wizards.

[JaronK]

Healer just doesn't get much variety in their spells or abilities (they do suddenly get Gate at level 17 and immediately get much stronger... but they only really have that). Like the Warmage, their specialty isn't that great and they don't even get the best spells for what they want to do.

Frankly, lots of classes are better at healing than a Healer, including Crusaders, Binders, Dread Necromancers, and Clerics.

JaronK

[Kaeso]

Mhh, but if the swift hunter feat doesn't bump the ranger/scout a tier up, why does it get so much love? It's considered to be one of the best ways to make archery viable.

[Eldariel]

Hardly. Without anything higher than 6th level spells, you'd be better off going wizard into swiftblade, erudite into slayer, archivist into archivist, or druid.

In a world capping out at level 6 spells, Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order has a very decent chance of being of the best classes in the game. You will miss out on level 6 spells, but you get level 5s from Wizard-list and Ranger-list, and full BAB and you can tack on Wildshape Ranger on all that for good measure. And you have 10 levels to PrC with as you please. You could be Mystic Ranger/Abjurant Champion/Swiftblade for great justice.

[elonin]

Mhh, but if the swift hunter feat doesn't bump the ranger/scout a tier up, why does it get so much love? It's considered to be one of the best ways to make archery viable.

The problem is archery itself. Swift hunter is the best of the poor choices out there. And archery prc's don't help much at all with the exception of arcane archer but I'm not sure what I'd do with that.

[Eldariel]

The problem is archery itself. Swift hunter is the best of the poor choices out there. And archery prc's don't help much at all with the exception of arcane archer but I'm not sure what I'd do with that.

Arcane Archer is a potential 2-level dip in arcane gish archers; that's about it. Most of the good archery PrCs (Peerless Archer [Silver Marches], Deepwood Sniper [Masters of the Wild], Order of the Bow Initiate [Sword & Fist]) are from 3.0 so meh. The only really good one in 3.5 is Cragtop Archer and it's superspecialized.

But non-PrCd Archers can draw much out of Warblade, Fighter-variants, Barbarian and Ranger so it's not all that bad. It does take a crapton of sources tho and thus I always extend any Archery-advice I give to include 3.0 sources since that's where the good ones lie.

[MarkusWolfe]

The only really good one in 3.5 is Cragtop Archer and it's superspecialized.

Superspecialized does not even begin to describe the level of specialization seen in an archer who needs a map to hit his target.

[tyckspoon]

Superspecialized does not even begin to describe the level of specialization seen in an archer who needs a map to hit his target.

Yeah.. Cragtop Archer had to have been written by somebody who's GM never applied Spot penalties. It's neat that you can fire your arrow most of a mile, but the class provides very little in the way of helping you actually pick out your target from that distance.

[elonin]

Don't think I'd want to take cragtop archer. Not sure if I'd take deepwood sniper either since that prc seems to cater to extreme range combat and that doesn't work much of the time. Though that +30' to precision damage is interesting with swift hunter.

[Eldariel]

Yeah.. Cragtop Archer had to have been written by somebody who's GM never applied Spot penalties. It's neat that you can fire your arrow most of a mile, but the class provides very little in the way of helping you actually pick out your target from that distance.

It reduces the penalties by ½. You can do it alright, though you do need magically enhanced Spot.

[Sacrieur]

Keep in mind Barbarian is tier 4, and he is capable of damage pumping, especially with FB or otherwise. Damage alone won't get you into a higher tier.

[JaronK]

It reduces the penalties by ½. You can do it alright, though you do need magically enhanced Spot.

Eh, the penalties are still too high to really fire that shot the vast majority of the time, even if you're pumping spot to obscene levels with Item Familiars and the like. That's why when I've done super long range archers, it's always been a Cleric using Chain of Eyes and a scout of some kind to paint targets.

With that said, there's an item (in MiC) that lets you view any area you like so long as you know where it is. You can use that to find targets.

JaronK

[Eldariel]

Eh, the penalties are still too high to really fire that shot the vast majority of the time, even if you're pumping spot to obscene levels with Item Familiars and the like. That's why when I've done super long range archers, it's always been a Cleric using Chain of Eyes and a scout of some kind to paint targets.

With that said, there's an item (in MiC) that lets you view any area you like so long as you know where it is. You can use that to find targets.

JaronK

Well, you can get to 2000' for 100 spot pretty reliably but beyond that it gets hard.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

As far as archery goes, I've actually become a fan of the Justice of Weald and Woe (Champions of Ruin, pg 48). it appears to be an eclectic mix of Ranger, Fighter, and Assassin.

[TroubleBrewing]

Well, you can get to 2000' for 100 spot pretty reliably but beyond that it gets hard.

There's always teamwork with the wizard for scrying.

Actually, that's not a bad idea for an adventure. The party walks out of a tavern, and a bystander next to them gets pinned to the building by what appears to be a javelin-sized arrow fired off of a nearby mountain...

[Eldariel]

As far as archery goes, I've actually become a fan of the Justice of Weald and Woe (Champions of Ruin, pg 48). it appears to be an eclectic mix of Ranger, Fighter, and Assassin.

It's good, except for the vexing Medium BAB, which is really painful for an archetype that doesn't get much out of...well, anything but basic numbers. Doubly so if you have access to Power Shot.

[nedz]

Combine Swift Hunter with a TWF Ranger using the Lion's Charge spell from SpC for a nova charger. Forget about archery.:smallsmile:

[Greenish]

Combine Swift Hunter with a TWF Ranger using the Lion's Charge spell from SpC for a nova charger. Forget about archery.:smallsmile:But then you're competing in exactly the same league as other chargers, with the same limitations and counters.

[nedz]

But then you're competing in exactly the same league as other chargers, with the same limitations and counters.

Yes, and other charger builds are probably better at doing massive damage. But you do have other options.

[Kaeso]

I know I'm getting off topic (In my own thread :smalltongue:) but if the swift hunter can't bump the ranger up a tier, why can the wildshape variant? They're both just subtle changes to the ranger chassis that allow it to do more damage.

[Eldariel]

I know I'm getting off topic (In my own thread :smalltongue:) but if the swift hunter can't bump the ranger up a tier, why can the wildshape variant? They're both just subtle changes to the ranger chassis that allow it to do more damage.

Wildshape variant does everything, not just more damage. Flight? Gotcha. Burrow? Gotcha. Swim? Gotcha. Scout? Yeah. Fight? Sure. Be a mount? Can do. Wildshape is Tier 3 'cause it offers versatile power rather than raw numbers like Swift Hunter.

[Gnaeus]

Wildshape variant does everything, not just more damage. Flight? Gotcha. Burrow? Gotcha. Swim? Gotcha. Scout? Yeah. Fight? Sure. Be a mount? Can do. Wildshape is Tier 3 'cause it offers versatile power rather than raw numbers like Swift Hunter.

To be fair, ranger can do most of those things by itself, either with its casting or its AC. Many of those he can do BETTER than the MoMF (Example, The ranger can take a Pegasus AC, then cast Wild Runner, and now he provides 2 mounts). Given that the standard Swift hunter build (Scout 4/Ranger 16) gets 4th level spells, and the most common WS build I hear (Ranger 5/MoMF10/Warshaper & Natures Warrior 5) gets 1st level spells, the Swift Hunter has a lot of utility the Wildshape Ranger lacks.