Shield Other Optimization

[Jack Zander]

I love the idea of absorbing damage for the rest of the party with shield other. However, without some sort of rapid healing on my part, I may be quickly turned to mush from a simple AoE damage spell. Therefore, I ask the playground for ideas on minimizing damage to myself and others through the use of shield other.

My best idea so far is to take a few levels of dragon shaman for DR and fast healing. Very sub-par I know, but its a start.

[faceroll]

Vigor + psicrystal?
Add a wild cohort, too.

Have them share your pain.

[Growin]

What ECL are we talking?


ECL 1: Crusader with Iron Guard's Glare and Stone Power

[Cog]

Grab a few levels of Binder. perhaps with Anima Mage/Psion, for Dahlver-Nar? Don't just share your friends' pain, share it with your enemies too.

[Jack Zander]

Grab a few levels of Binder. perhaps with Anima Mage/Psion, for Dahlver-Nar? Don't just share your friends' pain, share it with your enemies too.

Yes, this is good. Does this reduce damage I take in any way, or just make them take it also?

[JaronK]

Dahlvar-Nar gives half your damage to the enemy, so you don't take it.

Crusader means you can take all kinds of punishment.

Maybe even do something crazy like Binder/Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator/Tenebrous Apostate? Not even sure if that works but it could potentially be very cool...

JaronK

[Cog]

Shield Self offers a Will save to negate the effect, so you don't want to lose too many binder levels unless you'll often have enemy mooks/disposable allies to drop it on.

[JaronK]

If you could get high enough to use Zceryll, you could spam mooks, then use shield self to drop the damage on them.

JaronK

[Last Laugh]

Go cleric, grab Divine Metamagic, grab Chain Spell, cast chain spell shield other. (kidding!)

Consider Warshaper instead of Dragon Shaman. A changeling cleric 6 qualifies without hassle. Level 1 grants +4 con/+4 str. Level 4 grants fasthealing 2, and the ability to heal with Concentration checks. (DC=damage taken, heals 10)

Crusader is a good choice.

Maybe some crazy duskblade thing using Vampiric Touch? OR a crazy sorcerer thing using Doom Scarabs. (changeling caster, can become a Recaster to grab any two spells)

[faceroll]

Use vampiric abilities to get HP back from hitting opponents?

[Jack Zander]

Go cleric, grab Divine Metamagic, grab Chain Spell, cast chain spell shield other. (kidding!)

Consider Warshaper instead of Dragon Shaman. A changeling cleric 6 qualifies without hassle. Level 1 grants +4 con/+4 str. Level 4 grants fasthealing 2, and the ability to heal with Concentration checks. (DC=damage taken, heals 10)

Crusader is a good choice.

Maybe some crazy duskblade thing using Vampiric Touch? OR a crazy sorcerer thing using Doom Scarabs. (changeling caster, can become a Recaster to grab any two spells)

Wow, this warshaper seems pretty serious. What book is that from? What level can I qualify as a dwarven cleric (if possible)?

[Keld Denar]

You can't. Warshaper is a shapeshifter PrC, and none of it's abilities function unless you are in a form other than your own. Changlings get their minor shapechange ability, and thus qualify by virtue of race. The only way you could qualify as a dorf would be to find some domain with Polymorph in it, and even then, the abilities would only work while Polymorphed, which has a rounds/level duration unless you can DMM it.

[ericgrau]

Rather than expecting healing to keep up on possibly multiple shielded allies, I'd get your own HP pool as high as possible. Dwarf with con as your primary stat, improved toughness, etc. Maybe wis 2nd and dex 3rd for saves. Then you can get spells like heal and mass cure X wounds which can actually keep up with damage unlike the single target cure X wounds spells. Instead I might use those lower level slots for spells like magic vestment and resist energy or protection from energy on your allies. Domains like the earth domain could add even more awesome spells like stoneskin. Also a perfect fit for dwarfiness.

Enlarge spell to extend the range of shield other, then cast it in the morning. Get a lesser rod of extend spell too for longer duration. The rod also works nicely on your other buffs. You might even want 2 or more.

Man whenever somebody comes up with an idea like this I want to go try it myself. I counted 9 unplayed character concepts in my notes.

[faceroll]

You can't. Warshaper is a shapeshifter PrC, and none of it's abilities function unless you are in a form other than your own. Changlings get their minor shapechange ability, and thus qualify by virtue of race. The only way you could qualify as a dorf would be to find some domain with Polymorph in it, and even then, the abilities would only work while Polymorphed, which has a rounds/level duration unless you can DMM it.

Polymorph is min/level.

But I'm sure you could find an item or something of alter self. Archivist gets the Druid spell Aspect of the Wolf, 1st level, 10 min/level, be a wolf. Gives you the animal type, too, which qualifies you for Animal Growth and some other animal-only buffs.

[Cog]

Warshaper is good for tearing faces off. There's better sources of healing.

With Zceryll combined with Dahver-Nar, I'm really liking Binder. Go Binder/Anima "Priest"; use Favored Soul if you've got a lower point buy and can only afford Cha and Con, or Cleric if you can afford the Wis. While you can use your own mooks to Shield Self on, it's better to send that damage back at your enemies instead; it's a Will save that isn't mind-affecting.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Warshaper is from complete warrior.

Anyway, crusader is the best thing you can have for this. Probably dwarf or dragonborn for the constitution bonuses, maybe even a DWARF DRAGONBORN!!! :smallbiggrin: It would give you +4 constitution for -4 charisma, plus whatever else the dragonborn template adds.

[Jack Zander]

stuff

This is pretty much the kind of things I had in mind when I came up with the concept. Going full cleric would be fine and dandy and fun. But if I could somehow top this with a little cheese I would be very happy. This concept reminds me of my SWSE invincible tanking build.

Cog, how does shield self work with damage taken from shield other? I'm inclined to think that you only can distribute damage that you take yourself, not damage absorbed from someone else.


Warshaper is from complete warrior.

Anyway, crusader is the best thing you can have for this. Probably dwarf or dragonborn for the constitution bonuses, maybe even a DWARF DRAGONBORN!!! :smallbiggrin: It would give you +4 constitution for -4 charisma, plus whatever else the dragonborn template adds.

Okay I keep seeing this. Why is crusader so good for this? And what LA is the dragonborn template?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Okay I keep seeing this. Why is crusader so good for this? And what LA is the dragonborn template?

Crusader is awesome because of the defensive abilities it has, like steely resolve, and it can bolster allies with white raven maneuvers and stances, and maybe some of the devoted spirit maneuvers.

Dragonborn is +0 LA, I don't have races of the dragon, but I know that much.

[Gnaeus]

Also it has lots of strikes that can heal you or your allies.

[Keld Denar]

When a Crusader takes damage, a certain amount of that damage goes into his Steely Resolve pool (also known as "delayed damage pool"). As long as its in there, he gets a +1 to hit and damage per point of damage in that pool. At the end of each of his turns, that pool dumps into HP. If you can somehow negate the pool, you don't take the damage. Crusaders ALSO have several mechanics to negate the pool. Stone Power gives you +2 temp HP per point of BAB you sacrifice when you attack a foe. That means you can take a -5 penalty to hit to gain 10 temp HP, which would be the first to go when your Steely Resolve dumps each round. That basically gives you fast healing 10, so long as you are taking at least 10 damage per round. You can also HEAL the damage in your Steely Resolve pool. Again, crusader's have an app for that. Healing strikes like Crusader's Strike, Revitalizing Strike, and Strike of Righteous Vitality all heal wounds. You heal damage first from your Steely Resolve pool, alowing you to negate the pool immediately prior to it dumping, meaning you never actually take the damage.

The more Crusader levels you have, the higher your Steely Resolve pool is, up to a maximum of 25 IIRC.

[JaronK]

Crusader just heals himself, and rather well, while he fights... in addition to soaking damage better.

But the Binder thing would be pretty awesome, using the divine adaptation of Anima Mage along with Tenebrous Apostate. Plus, lots of Zceryll summons can heal stuff, so you can absorb damage from your party mates, send it to the summons (yes, you can pass it along), and the summons can heal you until they pop. Since you have an endless supply of summons, this is hardly a problem.

JaronK

[Cog]

Free dragonborn. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b)

[testpatternmih]

I guess it also mainly depends on what level you are starting with. JaronK's binder idea for the binder wouldn't be until about 8th-10th level ( dont have the book with me ) while you can start with Crusader 1 and grow into cleric levels for the shield others and healing spells. Eventually into RKV, cause why not right? .

[Cog]

I guess it also mainly depends on what level you are starting with. JaronK's binder idea for the binder wouldn't be until about 8th-10th level ( dont have the book with me ) while you can start with Crusader 1 and grow into cleric levels for the shield others and healing spells. Eventually into RKV, cause why not right? .
Dahlver-Nar is a second-level vestige, available at 3rd level, or sooner with Improved Binding. That's the key part.

[JaronK]

With Improved Binding, I believe you can have it at level 1.

JaronK

[Keld Denar]

You can get it at Binder1, but not ECL1. Improved Binding has the same HD clause that Practiced Spellcaster has. If you were a Cleric2/Binder1 and took Improved Binding, you could immediate get 2nd level vestages, yes.

[Darwin]

Complete Psionic's Ardent has a mantle ability that lets you absorb damage from a melee hit for an adjacent ally by expending psionic focus. In addition, he gives access to such powers as Vigor, Share Pain, Share Pain Forced, Empathic Transfer and Affinity Field. All of which shares, splits, or mitigates pain in some way. In short, he's the perfect tank.

If you can convince your DM to allow it, make a feat that allows you to take an active defense roll (1d20+AC-10) as an immediate action to defend an ally from a melee attack. We've been experimenting with it, and so far we're all pretty happy with the ability.

[JaronK]

You can get it at Binder1, but not ECL1. Improved Binding has the same HD clause that Practiced Spellcaster has. If you were a Cleric2/Binder1 and took Improved Binding, you could immediate get 2nd level vestages, yes.

No it doesn't. You can do it at ECL 1... it has no such clause. I'm looking at it right now.

JaronK

[ericgrau]

mongrelfolk, races of destiny page 98, +4 con, -2 int, -4 cha
Saurian Shifter, DR328, +2 con, -2 int, -2 cha; beasthide (free action) to temporarily get +2 more temporary con and +2 natural armor

Templates:
Mineral warrior, underdark page 96, is a nice cheesy +2 str, +4 con, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha, +3 natural armor, DR 8/adamantine all for LA 1
Lolth-touched: MM4, LA 1, Str +6, Con +6, alignment chaotic evil

So... Lolth-touched mineral warrior dragonborn mongrolfolk, +8 str, +16 con, -2 dex, -4 int, -2 wis, -6 cha, LA 2, chaotic evil. Ok maybe leave out lolth-touched. Actually that's a bit gouda. Probably more like dragonborn mongrelfolk, +6 con, -2 dex, -2 int, -4 cha.

You might try this too: Get a pair of rings of friend shield when you can afford the 50,000 gp, and leadership. Put one ring on an ally and another on your cohort. Have all your level 2-5 followers hang around the cohort and constantly heal him, safely at base miles away. I think you need to re-establish the link every time the 10 hour duration expires, but other than that there's no range limit.

[testpatternmih]

I'm sorry for being unclear, I was meaning jaronk's referance to Zceryll which is a 6th level vestige. If you were banking on using the summon trick, it would be awhile before that would come into play for the character. man i love binders. :)

[NNescio]

When a Crusader takes damage, a certain amount of that damage goes into his Steely Resolve pool (also known as "delayed damage pool"). As long as its in there, he gets a +1 to hit and damage per point of damage in that pool. ...
Per 5 points of damage in the pool, rounded down.



... You heal damage first from your Steely Resolve pool, alowing you to negate the pool immediately prior to it dumping, meaning you never actually take the damage. ...
To clarify, the crusader can choose to have healing (from any source) affect his HP and/or delayed damage pool, and can split up the healing in any way he wishes.



... The more Crusader levels you have, the higher your Steely Resolve pool is, up to a maximum of 25 IIRC.

Max is 30, at Crusader level 20.

[Jack Zander]

Man, so many options... Now I just need to focus on a build. I think I can get away with a minimum of 6 cleric levels if I also grab extend spell (or a rod of extend spell). I would feel pretty comfortable with 12 hours of shield other, though the more cleric levels the better. I don't know how much cheese I can get away with with templates (Lolth-touched mineral warrior dragonborn mongrolfolk made me lul a bit). If I went the crusader route, which order should I take the classes? Binder does seem a bit more powerful though. How many binder levels do I need to make this effective? And of course, if Leadership doesn't get banned, I can always go with the ring of friendship, though to be honest, my Charisma is probably going to be my first dump stat.

[Jack Zander]

Hmm... I just had a thought. If I was able to gain regeneration of any amount, would my damage received from shield other be lethal or non-lethal?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, as I remember, you take half the damage, so it depends on whether the guy attacking the ally with shield other is dealing lethal or nonlethal damage.

[Tvtyrant]

It just occurred to me that this would be a good use of the sanctuary spell + Heighten. Then the enemy will have a more difficult time attacking you and you can passively suck up damage with some form of fast healing on.

[Jack Zander]

It just occurred to me that this would be a good use of the sanctuary spell + Heighten. Then the enemy will have a more difficult time attacking you and you can passively suck up damage with some form of fast healing on.

That's a good idea. More ideas like this please. I need ways to stop things from attacking me while I can soak damage from my allies and passively heal myself.

[ericgrau]

Oh yeah can't believe sanctuary didn't come up sooner, or that I didn't think of it. Sanctuary is the classic round 1 spell for "I'm a healer, and I don't have anything better to do yet." Well, I suppose buffing might be another option for very long fights.

I was thinking to go for basic defense to avoid damage to yourself. Get a feat for tower shield proficiency if you don't already have it. Your first 3 stats are con, wis and dex for your saves. Armor & shield enhancement, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor and dusty rose prism ioun stone for AC. Cloak of resistance for saves, maybe even a paladin dip (and cha bumped up to 2nd stat after con) for more saves at the expensive of healing. Craft to save money on the gear if your DM gives downtime and cash. Yeah you can replace some of these with cleric buffs but (a) they're cheap anyway (b) that's a lot of spells and (c) it scales slower than gear. Magic circle against evil is a good low level defensive buff though. Plant domain adds barkskin which is nice because the amulet of natural armor scales slower than the others. So does the ring but shield of faith doesn't last long enough so you might as well use the magic circle. There are likewise other domain specific spells but I don't want to suggest too many of those b/c so many other factors could affect your domains. Stoneskin for yourself and party (earth domain) might be worth the domain just for that though, once you can afford to set aside a large chunk of your cash to the 250 gp a pop casting cost. Tagging your party with defensive buffs in general provides amazing synergy between slowing down damage and providing healing that can actually keep up with damage.

[Rei_Jin]

If you're going to burn a feat on a shield proficiency, grab your copy of Races of Stone and take the "Exotic Shield Proficiency (Gauntlet Shield)" so that you can cast while you have a shield in one hand, and a weapon in the other.

Sanctuary is a good idea, as is trying to find a way to give yourself regeneration. There's a spell in Book of Exalted Deeds that heals someone of all the subdual damage they've taken, so if you used the two in conjunction with a high base of hitpoints, you could soak HP all day long and only have to heal your allies after battle is done.

If you don't mind psionics, there is a power called "Transfer Pain" (I believe) that lets you transfer your damage taken to an enemy, with a touch attack. Could be hilarious to use, especially when your DM goes "But I haven't even hit you yet! How can you do that?"

[Jack Zander]

Those are some nice suggestions. Any ideas on how to gain regeneration?

[Rei_Jin]

There are very few creatures in D&D with regeneration, and I don't know of any feats or templates that give it to you, nor magic items. Fast Healing is fairly common though.

The only way I can think of, is Polymorph into a Troll (or similar creature). There are several other monsters that you could use, but right now I'm tired and can't be bothered looking them up.

The Ring of Regeneration does not give you regeneration, per se, rather it gives you the ability to regenerate lost limbs, and heal a little bit very slowly.

[ericgrau]

If you can make damage done to you selectively nonlethal, even better:


When a spell or a magical power cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.
Perhaps if the shield other is lethal (?) and damage done directly to you is nonlethal. Another option is the spell regeneration if you can't find that other spell. It also removes all nonlethal damage.

At high levels load up on resist energy / protection from energy for yourself and allies. Better yet, find the mass versions.

A Pathfinder game I'm in is short on clerics so I stole this idea btw as my backup character in case I die. I made an oracle (spontaneous cleric) with the trait "magical lineage(shield other)" so I can apply enlarge spell for free. I dipped fighter 1 for heavy armor and tower shield proficiency (PF clerics/oracles get neither), plus the bonus feat for 6 AC. I took channel energy to heal in a 30' burst multiple times per day, plus selective channeling to hit only allies. Since in PF you die at -con HP, I plan on diehard next, then (improved) toughness. I also got energy body which basically heals (1d6+level) as a move action per round for (level) rounds; adds up to a lot for 1 standard action initiation. I plan on another oracle power for a free quicken cure 1/day. I went gnome for +2 con, +2 cha (needed for channel energy and oracle), and +1 AC. He's a 41 lb. gnome in 40 lbs. of armor. Other than that I loaded up on party buffs. Once I get my cha a bit higher I may dip paladin for saves and swift action cha based healing so I can swift, move standard heal stack each round. With dex and str dumped and cleric damage spells not yet worth it (especially with cha behind con), he can't really hurt anything himself.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Those are some nice suggestions. Any ideas on how to gain regeneration?

Hmmm... only thing I can think of (save the ring) is the Shadow Creature template (Manual of the Planes). 3.0 book, unfortunately, but what can you do?

One of the template benefits is Regen 2 (you die if brought to 0 hp, not -10)

[Eldariel]

Those are some nice suggestions. Any ideas on how to gain regeneration?

Your best bet is:
Wildshape with Extraordinary Wildshape
Polymorph (EDIT: Wait, I don't think there's Extraordinary Polymorph-spell...)
Trollshape [PHBII]

and later, of course, Shapechange. You could also use the Delay Death+Beastland Ferocity combination to be immune to stuff. And then Contingent Revivify for when you die so once Delay Death runs out, you get revived immediately.

[The Boz]

As was mentioned on the previous page, Sanctuary, Shield Other, heal without the hassle of touching people. If you get some DR, all the better, but the magical workings behind that are wonky. DR from armor probably won't work, it needs to be natural or magical or something like that.

[Curmudgeon]

My best idea so far is to take a few levels of dragon shaman for DR and fast healing. Very sub-par I know, but its a start.
The fast healing will certainly help, but damage reduction will only benefit the actual character being attacked. Damage taken through the Shield Other spell ignores DR.
Damage Reduction

A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

[ericgrau]

Hence stoneskin to give away DR, and other defensive buffs on others. For yourself I'd get a good chunk of defense so you don't become the target, but focus on HP.

[Jack Zander]

The fast healing will certainly help, but damage reduction will only benefit the actual character being attacked. Damage taken through the Shield Other spell ignores DR.

Right, but wouldn't the damage first be reduced through DR, and then halved? The DR would still stop some damage to me in that regard, but only the DR that is on my allies, not me.

[Curmudgeon]

Right, but wouldn't the damage first be reduced through DR, and then halved?
If the DR is on the character actually being attacked, yes. If it's on the Shield Other spellcaster, no.

[Jack Zander]

That's what I thought. So the dragon shaman's aura would still be good as a means to shield your party even more.