Tips for building a torture master (specifically for a dragon)

[Sir_Chivalry]

Okay, the party in my game is going to be facing some fairly scary situations soon. The head of a paladin order (corrupt as all hell) finds out that one of the PCs (I won't say who) is feeding information to the BBEG for their own purposes.

Now he's going to capture them, and assuming his plans go accordingly, I have one problem presenting itself. One of the PCs has a silver dragon who is accompanying him at the moment (also his girlfriend), and she would be not so easy to torture (note, the torture's not for info, he gets that through other means, he's just having them "spiritually cleansed" before execution)

I said hot pokers, brands and hot lead would be best to use, but the player insists that the dragon's physical resistance to extreme temperatures as noted in the Draconomicon might make that less than ideal, and he makes an interesting argument. I feel however that extremely hot= extra damage on the cold subtype creature. So I turn to the playground with a few questions:


What kind of build would make a good torturer?
What kind of torture would be best for a silver dragon?
Combination of the two: If I made a special dragon torturer, what would the best build for that be?

[NNescio]

Okay, the party in my game is going to be facing some fairly scary situations soon. The head of a paladin order (corrupt as all hell) finds out that one of the PCs (I won't say who) is feeding information to the BBEG for their own purposes.

Now he's going to capture them, and assuming his plans go accordingly, I have one problem presenting itself. One of the PCs has a silver dragon who is accompanying him at the moment (also his girlfriend), and she would be not so easy to torture (note, the torture's not for info, he gets that through other means, he's just having them "spiritually cleansed" before execution)

I said fire would be best to use, but the player insists that the dragon's physical resistance to extreme temperatures as noted in the Draconomicon might make that less than ideal, and he makes an interesting argument. So I turn to the playground with a few questions:


What kind of build would make a good torturer?
What kind of torture would be best for a silver dragon?
Combination of the two: If I made a special dragon torturer, what would the best build for that be?

Silver dragons have the Cold subtype, and hence are vulnerable to fire (take 150% damage).

[AmberVael]

Given that Silver Dragons are not only cold dwelling, but have fire vulnerability, I'd have to disagree with your player. In general, dragons are probably pretty hardy and resistant to temperatures, but a silver dragon probably isn't going to like fire one bit. (I mean, they take more damage from it than a human... that has to point towards some kind of extra special hurt and pain).

That said, torture is not necessarily about efficiency, or even dealing damage, just inflicting pain. I'd imagine using significant amounts of fire might make it difficult to keep the dragon alive, unless you were using healing to keep it going.


But lets assume damage = pain. It's not the most accurate, but hey, HP isn't accurate either. In that case, you want someone who can deal consistent damage (too much variability might mean death, or at least incapability to get the creature near death), consistently keep the creature alive, and drag it out for as long as possible.

So probably...
1) Someone who can deal precise amounts of damage. No dice, or at least just one dice. Mostly working with modifiers.
2) Someone who can heal. Not necessarily all the way, given the goal- one of those handy abilities to heal up to half continually would probably be perfect.
3) Someone with nearly unlimited resources. Use reserve feats, or invocations, or something like that. Heck, even just a guy with a knife.

[NNescio]

Actually, given how silver dragons behave, the most effective way to torture her would probably be by torturing her boyfriend in front of her while she watches, helplessly.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Silver dragons have the Cold subtype, and hence are vulnerable to fire (take 150% damage).

Hence my idea that fire would be best. Well not really, this discussion came up when I mentioned hot lead, brands and pokers from the BoVD, in fact, come to think of it, his argument was:

Fire= extra damage

Just heat= not so much

But I feel that those items mentioned would be effective.


Given that Silver Dragons are not only cold dwelling, but have fire vulnerability, I'd have to disagree with your player. In general, dragons are probably pretty hardy and resistant to temperatures, but a silver dragon probably isn't going to like fire one bit. (I mean, they take more damage from it than a human... that has to point towards some kind of extra special hurt and pain).

That said, torture is not necessarily about efficiency, or even dealing damage, just inflicting pain. I'd imagine using significant amounts of fire might make it difficult to keep the dragon alive, unless you were using healing to keep it going.


But lets assume damage = pain. It's not the most accurate, but hey, HP isn't accurate either. In that case, you want someone who can deal consistent damage (too much variability might mean death, or at least incapability to get the creature near death), consistently keep the creature alive, and drag it out for as long as possible.

So probably...
1) Someone who can deal precise amounts of damage. No dice, or at least just one dice. Mostly working with modifiers.
2) Someone who can heal. Not necessarily all the way, given the goal- one of those handy abilities to heal up to half continually would probably be perfect.
3) Someone with nearly unlimited resources. Use reserve feats, or invocations, or something like that. Heck, even just a guy with a knife.

Well healing is a must, but I've got a magic item to cover that. And the pain/damage relationship is actually covered in the rules in the BoVD (though for this I might use the rules from Fiendish Codex II, thoughts?) in that the modifier presented and the damage done are two different things, knife deals massive damage (2d4) but provides a small bonus, a fairly nonlethal iron maiden does 1 point but gives you a +6.


Actually, given how silver dragons behave, the most effective way to torture her would probably be by torturing her boyfriend in front of her while she watches, helplessly.

That works nicely and I can't believe I haven't thought of it, but the high cardinal wants them cleansed before execution (no idea how he's going to execute a dragon). Awesome idea though

[dgnslyr]

If you really want to torture your PCs, I guess you could have an aspiring Arctic Mineral Warrior Orc performer read them love poetry, or maybe let them hear his newest song, in original orcish.

[NNescio]

Hence my idea that fire would be best. Well not really, this discussion came up when I mentioned hot lead, brands and pokers from the BoVD, in fact, come to think of it, his argument was:

Fire= extra damage

Just heat= not so much

But I feel that those items mentioned would be effective. ...

The Druid spell Heat Metal has the Fire descriptor and deals fire damage to creatures in contact with the heated metal.


If you really want to torture your PCs, I guess you could have an aspiring Arctic Mineral Warrior Orc performer read them love poetry, or maybe let them hear his newest song, in original orcish.

Now that would be uncivilised. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html) :smallwink:

[Sir_Chivalry]

The Druid spell Heat Metal has the Fire descriptor and deals fire damage to creatures in contact with the heated metal.



Now that would be uncivilised. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html) :smallwink:

Right, extreme heat equals fire.

[MarkusWolfe]

If you really want to torture your PCs, I guess you could have an aspiring Arctic Mineral Warrior Orc performer read them love poetry, or maybe let them hear his newest song, in original orcish.

You......MONSTER!

[Zonugal]

What kind of build would make a good torturer?

I'm of the opinion that one should go big or go home with signature non-player characters. If you want this guy to be remembered he needs to be the torturer that they always remember. Willing Deformity and Deformity (Madness) grants him immunity to mind-effecting effects while also transforming him into a proper sadist. And that's the important thing, he is a sadist to the core.


What kind of torture would be best for a silver dragon?

Looking at their abilities there is the fire vulnerability, which can be useful. You'll also want to look out for their alternate form ability should they transform into a rat to escape their bondage.

But ideally you should be torturing them for a reason. Torture in D&D is really hard to pull of because hp loss is pretty common and the players ultimately know you won't kill them via torture. So there has to be a reason for the torture.

If you attempting to break their spirits here might be a fun way for the silver dragon. Find some way within the rules to contain the dragon that the dragon's mouth is facing a wall. Have a powder, substance or alchemical item that can trigger its breath weapon. Then simply bring in individuals and physically force the dragon to kill them via the breath weapon.


Combination of the two: If I made a special dragon torturer, what would the best build for that be?

Combine the two answers above. You could have the sadist ripping off dragon scales and making them into pieces of art in their free time. Really present a person who is scary to the players and they'll always remember them.

[Sir_Chivalry]

I'm of the opinion that one should go big or go home with signature non-player characters. If you want this guy to be remembered he needs to be the torturer that they always remember. Willing Deformity and Deformity (Madness) grants him immunity to mind-effecting effects while also transforming him into a proper sadist. And that's the important thing, he is a sadist to the cure.



Looking at their abilities there is the fire vulnerability, which can be useful. You'll also want to look out for their alternate form ability should they transform into a rat to escape their bondage.

But ideally you should be torturing them for a reason. Torture in D&D is really hard to pull of because hp loss is pretty common and the players ultimately know you won't kill them via torture. So there has to be a reason for the torture.

If you attempting to break their spirits here might be a fun way for the silver dragon. Find some way within the rules to contain the dragon that the dragon's mouth is facing a wall. Have a powder, substance or alchemical item that can trigger its breath weapon. Then simply bring in individuals and physically force the dragon to kill them via the breath weapon.



Combine the two answers above. You could have the sadist ripping off dragon scales and making them into pieces of art in their free time. Really present a person who is scary to the players and they'll always remember them.

Interesting, especially if I give the dragon a Vow of Nonviolence . . . would really break her.

[SlashRunner]

Wait a second. Wait a second. Is the dragon's boyfriend a...human?

[Sir_Chivalry]

Wait a second. Wait a second. Is the dragon's boyfriend a...human?

changeling posing as a half-elf, why?

[SlashRunner]

I don't know much about D&D fluff, but a half-elf and a dragon don't seem to strike me as particularly compatible. Do dragons regularly engage in romantic relationships with creatures that are not quadrupedal, winged, reptilian, and fire-breathing?

[NNescio]

I don't know much about D&D fluff, but a half-elf and a dragon don't seem to strike me as particularly compatible. Do dragons regularly engage in romantic relationships with creatures that are not quadrupedal, winged, reptilian, and fire-breathing?

Yes they do. Frequently. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) The only things less amorous than them are humans.

Fortunately (or not so fortunately for some people), most dragons are able to shapeshift.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Yes they do. Frequently. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) The only things less amorous than them are humans.

Fortunately (or not so fortunately for some people), most dragons are able to shapeshift.

What NNescio said.

Mara (the dragon), is a silver dragon. They, along with gold and bronze dragons, can take human form. They also like human cuisine (except sweet things, which dragons cannot digest) and culture.

The changeling met her when he was taking a year off from the rest of the group. They had fled the city they were previously in (devil cultists) and he set about helping his current girlfriend at the time (a ghost who had been forced into work as a librarian) to pass on. Once she had seen the world outside and passed on to the afterlife, the changeling took up work as a chronicler for a mercenary company, and when they were hired to slay a red dragon, BAM, they ran into Mara, who the changeling (being a knowledge mule) immediately recognized as a silver dragon from esoteric mannerisms.

Now he's back with the actual party, and she's been accompanying them everywhere, but not getting involved in fighting.

[HalfDragonCube]

They had fled the city they were previously in (devil cultists) and he set about helping his current girlfriend at the time (a ghost who had been forced into work as a librarian) to pass on.

...

*Backs away slowly*

[Sir_Chivalry]

...

*Backs away slowly*

What?:smallconfused:

What part of that statement makes you back away?

[Gavinfoxx]

In general, I would look toward the fear handbook for ideas of what a torture master might look like:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0

Also, torture MIGHT fall under "Profession: torturer", so maximizing that check might help.

[Sir_Chivalry]

I noticed interestingly enough that the favored enemy bonus can be applied to Intimidate with the right feat, Trophy Hunter from Dragon magazine. Thoughts on that?

[sengmeng]

The book of vile darkness had torture rules: it was an intimidate check that dealt damage. Specialized (serrated) weapons gave a +2 circumstance bonus. Thus, a "torture dagger" would deal 1d4 damage per check and grant a +2 circumstance bonus to the intimidate check (no str bonus, because you aren't trying to kill them). On the other hand, I've always thought that Inflict Minor Wounds ad nauseum would represent a pretty awful death, and then there's using a whip to just beat on them (can't even kill them).

[Sir_Chivalry]

The book of vile darkness had torture rules: it was an intimidate check that dealt damage. Specialized (serrated) weapons gave a +2 circumstance bonus. Thus, a "torture dagger" would deal 1d4 damage per check and grant a +2 circumstance bonus to the intimidate check (no str bonus, because you aren't trying to kill them). On the other hand, I've always thought that Inflict Minor Wounds ad nauseum would represent a pretty awful death, and then there's using a whip to just beat on them (can't even kill them).

Close, but the rules in the BoVD say the dagger deals 2d4. Interesting though. Would you say this would work on a dragon though?

[sengmeng]

The real question is, if you don't know how to torture a dragon, then why would your torturer? I predict them starting off with normal methods, the dragon laughs at them, and then they began to get more drastic and crazy, finally just torturing the dragon's boyfriend in frustration.

[tanderson11]

Please, for your players' sake, do not use crunch for torture. Personally, I love to be fully immersed in whatever game I play, especially horror games. Nothing breaks me out of the atmosphere more than an intimidate check. Make the torturer actually terrifying to your players and they'll love you for it.

I recommend giving your torturer a memorable look. My favorite is Willing Deformity [Tongue]. Nothing freaks a party out more than a villain with a white tongue like a maggot. Perhaps when he talks, he goes so close to the characters that his tongue brushes their face dripping burning acid onto their body, and if they listen closely enough, they can hear the tongue hissing like a snake.

Cleansing you say? What if the torturer cuts a hole right into the stomach of the characters or the dragon, and then he takes a bottle with a swarm of spiders inside and pours it down their throat. When they crawl out of the character's stomach (after laying eggs of course, nothing makes a better subplot than something hatching inside a character) the character is cleansed.

EDIT:
Just to add a little to my final idea. What could be more horrible for a Good creature like the Silver Dragon than becoming evil, what could be more horrible for her romantic interest, than having to kill said Silver Dragon?

Instead of having the torturer cut open the Silver Dragon's gullet, simply allow the swarm to live inside the Silver Dragon. Fluff the swarm as a horde of fiendish larva. Once inside the silver dragon, they burrow everywhere in her body and corrupt her thoughts. The torturer uses the now evil Silver Dragon to kill the party, maybe? I am not sure, but I know you can think of something creative to have her do.

[sengmeng]

In Fable II, torture cost XP

[Sir_Chivalry]

Please, for your players' sake, do not use crunch for torture. Personally, I love to be fully immersed in whatever game I play, especially horror games. Nothing breaks me out of the atmosphere more than an intimidate check. Make the torturer actually terrifying to your players and they'll love you for it.

I recommend giving your torturer a memorable look. My favorite is Willing Deformity [Tongue]. Nothing freaks a party out more than a villain with a white tongue like a maggot. Perhaps when he talks, he goes so close to the characters that his tongue brushes their face dripping burning acid onto their body, and if they listen closely enough, they can hear the tongue hissing like a snake.

Cleansing you say? What if the torturer cuts a hole right into the stomach of the characters or the dragon, and then he takes a bottle with a swarm of spiders inside and pours it down their throat. When they crawl out of the character's stomach (after laying eggs of course, nothing makes a better subplot than something hatching inside a character) the character is cleansed.

EDIT:
Just to add a little to my final idea. What could be more horrible for a Good creature like the Silver Dragon than becoming evil, what could be more horrible for her romantic interest, than having to kill said Silver Dragon?

Instead of having the torturer cut open the Silver Dragon's gullet, simply allow the swarm to live inside the Silver Dragon. Fluff the swarm as a horde of fiendish larva. Once inside the silver dragon, they burrow everywhere in her body and corrupt her thoughts. The torturer uses the now evil Silver Dragon to kill the party, maybe? I am not sure, but I know you can think of something creative to have her do.

Well, obviously I'm not using the crunch, that's as you said bad roleplaying. But I try to justify with crunch first, it's how I brainstorm ideas.

Having things grow inside them seems strange considering they are executing them after, what's the reasoning behind that?