On the subject of the coup de grace

[zephyrkinetic]

1920s Headline version:
ROGUE KILLS BBEG 4X HER LEVEL! DM FLABBERGASTED!

Longer explanation:
One of my PCs has a level 3 halfling rogue. Said rogue snuck into the level 12 (4 ftr/ 4 rgr/ 4 barb) Orc Warlord's tent, and killed him with a coup de grace while he was having a little nappy-nap. I didn't spoonfeed her anything; she rolled to sneak through camp, legitimately B&E'd the tent, and we rolled the Fort save vs critical damage. Orcie failed.

It's not as though my campaign can't continue; he wasn't an integral BBEG, more just a benchmark boss before the storyline progresses past this chapter. But I still had to dole out stupid XP, or be branded unfair for disallowing or cheapening a game mechanic of which rogues are designed to make good use. [before anyone says anything, I know the chart in the DMG doesn't provide XP for a CR 12 at level 3; I extrapolated it.]


Either way, my questions are thus:
- Has something like this happened to you?
- If yes, how did you handle it?
- If not, do you think I handled that properly?

Thanks, y'all.

[LOTRfan]

Doesn't the DMG mention that you do not get any XP at all if the CR is seven levels higher than the party ECL, because they mostly likely succeeded on dumb luck?

But, anyway, no, that hasn't happened to me (yet :smalleek:).

[Sarco_Phage]

Coup de "gras"? Like... blow of fat?

[zephyrkinetic]

Coup de "gras"? Like... blow of fat?

Yes. The fat that is in my brain.
Can't believe I did that.

Strike it from the records, please!

[Kumori]

I feel sorry for the rest of the party, now sitting 3 or 4 levels below the rogue...

[zephyrkinetic]

Doesn't the DMG mention that you do not get any XP at all if the CR is seven levels higher than the party ECL, because they mostly likely succeeded on dumb luck?

But, anyway, no, that hasn't happened to me (yet :smalleek:).

Yes, it says that. I alluded to that a little in the original post. I felt like she had done enough rogue-y stuff (sneaking, hiding, picked a pretty difficult lock, found a trap, slit his throat, etc) that she didn't just trip over a dying dragon, so to speak. It felt wrong to not reward her for utilizing her character.

I couldn't very well say "He died! Good job. You are awarded a grand total of 0 XP, because the DMG says he was too powerful for you to kill. Sorry."

Right?

[Traveler]

Actually yes, once.
We were first level character's escaping from prison (long story involing burning down 3 taverns and two barfights) at night. On our way out we came across a wizard writing in his spell book. A friend of the warden's evidently along with having it out for all of us. Anyway, the druid rolled move silently, snuck up on the guy, and coup de grace. Suddenly, we all uped to level 3. Turns out the wizard was going to be a major villian in our campaign history and was 10th level or something close to it. Not anymore :smallbiggrin:.

[Goonthegoof]

You shouldn't feel sorry for them. The rogue took a huge risk and earned her reward, and the party members will catch up sooner or later.

If you don't reward people for taking risks then they won't take them, and sneaking in and assassinating the BBEG was a huge risk. Give her the xp and remember that in future the party members will get more xp because they're lower level.

[zephyrkinetic]

I feel sorry for the rest of the party, now sitting 3 or 4 levels below the rogue...

Fortunately, we always play on an XP-by-group basis. They all shot from 3 to 5.

[Bugbeartrap]

First off, kudos for rolling with the punches and not taking the just reward from the risk taking PC.

On the other hand, the DMG does state that you cannot double level; the character is instead 1 XP away from gaining that second level. Although, it doesn't sound like thats going to stop you, so good for you! My group doesn't play by that rule either!

[Sarco_Phage]

The DMG is off on that count. What it does mean to imply is that you, as DM, should never give so much XP to a PC that they have enough to level up twice in a single go.

However I think extraordinary circumstances (such as a 3rd level rogue assassinating the bad guy in his sleep) call for it. Way to go, halfing rogue, you just done your entire class proud.

I just hope they're not expecting her to do the same thing to EVERY bad guy, else they're gonna need a reroll.

[Xuc Xac]

I think this is less of a problem if you don't assume "12th level orc = CR12" in every situation. If he's sleeping, then he's much less of a challenge. If the PCs fought him in regular combat but encountered him after he had already been badly injured by someone or something else, would you still count him as CR12 even though he only has 10 hit points left?

"Facing a 12th level orc warlord in combat" might be CR12, but "sneaking up on a sleeping orc without a lot of Listen skill ranks and stabbing him" isn't.

[Sarco_Phage]

He did point out that the Rogue undertook a legitimate challenge when she sneaked in and broke into the Warlord's tent.

[Canarr]

Yeah. If the players do clever things that end up making the fight less difficult than it should have been, that's something to be rewarded, not punished by giving out less XP.

We had that with a GM once, who wanted to give out less XP than CR-appropriate, because we'd caught the bad guys in a perfect ambush and thus managed to take them out without taking much damage ourselves. His argument was: "The fight wasn't tough, you hardly took damage. So, it's not worth a lot of XP." He backed down quickly, though.

While I haven't come across a situation like that, I think you handled that very well and fairly towards the players. Kudos.

[cfalcon]

Your group XP handled the one part that could have gone awry perfectly.

Sounds like you handled this correctly.



The only thing that you COULD have done wrong, maybe, is that the camp could have been too easy to stealth. A single guard-worg makes it more challenging tactically, and it's possible you didn't think like an actual important chieftan when designing the enemy camp. However, it's possible that he had no reason to suspect his guards weren't adequate (he probably wasn't stupendous on the mental stats), or was mobile and didn't expect the challenge, or just generally thought of himself as kind of invincible.

But regardless, you certainly handled it right. I've had similar crap go down, but normally the foes that challenge the PCs directly start out a bit above and level up over time through their conquests- the net result being that if the PCs would "likely" run into a character at 12th level who would be 15th then, then when the PCs are 3rd level the character would probably only be 7th still. But I've definitely had the "hrm, ok, I'll have to figure out what will go down now, because as written they just durned broke it all" moment.

[elpollo]

Fortunately, we always play on an XP-by-group basis. They all shot from 3 to 5.

Isn't there a rule about only being able to go up by one level at a time? I swear I've seen it somewhere, but I can't currently find it.

[Amnestic]

Isn't there a rule about only being able to go up by one level at a time? I swear I've seen it somewhere, but I can't currently find it.

It's in the PHB near the end of the classes section, and has another mention in the DMG about rewarding EXP.

From my point of view, it's a pretty stupid rule though, especially if it would reduce the awesome reward for pulling off something like the scenario mentioned in the OP.

[elpollo]

It's in the PHB near the end of the classes section, and has another mention in the DMG about rewarding EXP.

From my point of view, it's a pretty stupid rule though, especially if it would reduce the awesome reward for pulling off something like the scenario mentioned in the OP.

Ah, thanks. I was desperately trying to find it in the DMG (to no avail).

Eh, I think it (and the no experience for ECL+8 CR encounters) stops situations like this occurring. Since the rogue made and passed several rolls we can probably assume the DCs were level appropriate, which suggests that in all, despite ending with an ECL12 opponent getting killed, it was a level appropriate encounter.

Also, the awesome reward is surely seeing the orc warband tear itself apart and the local towns and stuff be saved, and the rogue player being able to say "I did that".

[The Dark Fiddler]

Also, the awesome reward is surely seeing the orc warband tear itself apart and the local towns and stuff be saved, and the rogue player being able to say "I did that".

This is an interesting point; killing the leader of a group rarely ends peacefully. The warband is going to be at constant turmoil now to see who becomes leader (unless they had a very specific chain of succession, and still possibly then), but it's possible that things might get worse now. Perhaps whoever is going to become the leader is the one who can get the most loot from nearby settlements, and orcish bands are going to become absolutely vicious now to try and become the leader.

[Canarr]

That's... quite brillant, actually.

Depending on what was the GM's original plan with the orc and his warband - straight route to whereever? - could disintegrate along with the warband's leadership, forcing the PCs to scramble in order to keep up with several smaller groups of orcs, trying to loot the surrounding countryside as quickly as possible, to increase their own chances of becoming the new warlord.

[candycorn]

I'd personally have his closest rival take the reins of power, after a very short, and very brutal (and very out-of-PC-sight) struggle. From there, I'd have him organize war parties, complete with worg riders, but not on the towns. In fact, the orc warlord leaves the towns mostly alone, to lessen the adventurer bounties on his orcs. He raids and pillages the less-organized ogres near the town.

Dispossessed, the ogres begin stirring up trouble, with small groups of 2-4 causing caravan problems... Killing horses for the meat, dragging the shinies back to their makeshift hovels all too near the humanoid settlement.

There are fewer ogres, but individually, they're much more fearsome. And the ogres sleep in a clearing. A well-lit clearing. One where such a rogue would have to cross open ground before having anything to hide behind.

[Claudius Maximus]

Make sure there's some bounty on the chief or a really grateful wealthy town around to get them to their new WBL. If you play with WBL that is.

[zephyrkinetic]

Make sure there's some bounty on the chief or a really grateful wealthy town around to get them to their new WBL. If you play with WBL that is.

I do use WBL; I also assumed that an Orc warlord of this guy's stature would have amassed a considerable amount, and would probably keep it in a pile by his throne, Genghis Khan-style. So, they're covered for appropriate wealth.

[zephyrkinetic]

I'd personally have his closest rival take the reins of power, after a very short, and very brutal (and very out-of-PC-sight) struggle. From there, I'd have him organize war parties, complete with worg riders, but not on the towns. In fact, the orc warlord leaves the towns mostly alone, to lessen the adventurer bounties on his orcs. He raids and pillages the less-organized ogres near the town.

Dispossessed, the ogres begin stirring up trouble, with small groups of 2-4 causing caravan problems... Killing horses for the meat, dragging the shinies back to their makeshift hovels all too near the humanoid settlement.

There are fewer ogres, but individually, they're much more fearsome. And the ogres sleep in a clearing. A well-lit clearing. One where such a rogue would have to cross open ground before having anything to hide behind.

That's a really elegant epilogue to this encounter. :smallsmile: I wish I had room to use it before the next chapter. I already have plans for them, though. Lemme 'splain.

If any of my players are around, don't read this spoiler:
See, that warlord's camp was the northernmost of three orc camps. In skipping the southern two and only sacking the top (and most important) one, they are making it so that the impending Orc invasion will begin with no general and no auxillary soldiers. The party's uber-Charismatic bard snuck into the tent after the Orcs figured out their were intruders and a battle had started. He chopped the chieftan's head off, and rolled a 20 to intimidate while brandishing said head. I have awesome players. :smallbiggrin:

So, they're taking the info they gathered back to King NPC, who will subsequently make them Lieutenants, giving them command over a battalion (to coincide with their 6th level, I'm giving them Helms of the King's Officers, which essentially grant them the Leadership feat when dealing with the King's soldiers.), and sending them off to fight the Orc army.

So, Orc battle will rage for a little while, and then the Magic battalion will cast a couple of massive group spells; based on their strange and arcane interminglings, a big ugly rip in space-time will occur, and the party will be forced down a Sliders-esque trip through dimensions. They're in Greyhawk now, but I have plans to send them through every alternate D&D setting, picking up strange and fearsome equipment and Prestige classes as they go.

[Ormur]

The orc should have had someone keeping watch or had an alarm spell or something. If however he took precautions that the players negated then they deserve the XP. But if it doesn't ruin anything then I guess a few extra levels are fine.

Nothing this bad has happened to me as a DM but my players forgot to take precautions once and a party member ended his life as the orc. I didn't do it intentionally but I guess neither I nor the players realized just how bad a status condition sleeping is.

[zephyrkinetic]

The orc should have had someone keeping watch or had an alarm spell or something. If however he took precautions that the players negated then they deserve the XP. But if it doesn't ruin anything then I guess a few extra levels are fine.

Nothing this bad has happened to me as a DM but my players forgot to take precautions once and a party member ended his life as the orc. I didn't do it intentionally but I guess neither I nor the players realized just how bad a status condition sleeping is.

He had a camp full of 100 other orcs; it was chow time, and they (being impatient, stupid, aggressive beasts) were all fighting over thin stew. There was also a trap, but she avoided it. She cut her way into the back of the tent, and her hide and move silently checks were sufficient to beat a dozen "average" (because I'm not rolling 100 orcs' spot and listen checks) rolls. She was actually seen after her assassination; one of the "average" rolls was a nat 20.

[Ravens_cry]

Was a 20 on the dice plus their bonuses enough to see her? It is a common houserule, but skill checks are not auto-successes on Natural 20's.
Which is good thing, otherwise you could jump to the moon about 5% of the time.

[zephyrkinetic]

Was a 20 on the dice plus their bonuses enough to see her? It is a common houserule, but skill checks are not auto-successes on Natural 20's.
Which is good thing, otherwise you could jump to the moon about 5% of the time.

Incidentally, no, it would have been 3 off (she rolled a 26. Not bad for a level 3 rogue, eh?). Since it was designed to be an "average" roll, though, that would surely have consisted of at least one bionic orc commando with binocular eyes who must have rolled a 27.

Or something. :smalltongue:

Anyway, that was my justification. Had it been a one v. one scenario, I wouldn't have allowed it.

[Ravens_cry]

OK, you're the DM. All in all ,good work by the rogue, and good job for you allowing a class that some find sub-par a chance to shine at their strengths, sneaky infiltration and silent death dealing.
Our group did something similar and it basically broke the module because it did not expect this. It was supposed to be a long protracted fight with a boss with reinforcements. Instead we, and by we mean the rogue and the ranger, but we were all there, knocked him out while he was asleep with a houseruled non-leathal damage coup de grâce using a non-leathal damage weapon, and carried the boss off with none the wiser.
And it was beautiful.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Incidentally, no, it would have been 3 off (she rolled a 26. Not bad for a level 3 rogue, eh?). Since it was designed to be an "average" roll, though, that would surely have consisted of at least one bionic orc commando with binocular eyes who must have rolled a 27.

Or something. :smalltongue:

I'm sure it'd be worth at least a +3 circumstance bonus from aid another :smalltongue:

[Talakeal]

Actually yes, once.
We were first level character's escaping from prison (long story involing burning down 3 taverns and two barfights) at night. On our way out we came across a wizard writing in his spell book. A friend of the warden's evidently along with having it out for all of us. Anyway, the druid rolled move silently, snuck up on the guy, and coup de grace. Suddenly, we all uped to level 3. Turns out the wizard was going to be a major villian in our campaign history and was 10th level or something close to it. Not anymore :smallbiggrin:.

Sneaking up on someone isn't a coup de grace. Its just an attack against his flat footed AC, or a sneak attack if you are a rogue unless I am missing something.

[Sarco_Phage]

Either he or his DM don't know the coup de grace rules, or the DM ruled that the wizard was helpless while writing the book and just took 8d4+Str bonus to the back of the neck.

That's certainly how I'd do it, but you might disagree.