Help Me: Competitive RPG

[Weimann]

So, something that I've been thinking about recently. Many RPGs focus on cooperation, narrative story-telling and GM judgement. Now, none of these are bad, of course. However, I've been thinking about there is any RPG that embrace the PvP aspect? Some kind of gladiator or kung-fu tournament system that was made to pit players against each other?

Any ideas?

[dsmiles]

If you don't mind the comedic aspect, Paranoia is good for fostering a competitive spirit amongst your players.

[Weimann]

Comedy is always neat. I've heard about Paranoia but I've never actually read it. I'll put it on The List, thanks :smallsmile:

[Sarco_Phage]

Why would you want that? Don't you know how many homes Monopoly alone has wrecked?

[dsmiles]

Comedy is always neat. I've heard about Paranoia but I've never actually read it. I'll put it on The List, thanks :smallsmile:
Excellent. My evil plan is working.

[Weimann]

Why would you want that? Don't you know how many homes Monopoly alone has wrecked?That's kind of why I'm asking. Just pulling any old system and letting players go at it seem volatile and risky, given that the system probably isn't meant to be used that way. I'm hoping that systems specifically designed for PvP (is they exist) will be better at handling such concerns.

[Caemos]

Was going to suggest Exalted (There are scenarios where one character will go crazy and the rest have to try and take him/her down. And there's a lot of kung fu), but then I saw your sig, so I guess you're already familiar with it:smallsmile:. I have heard of people doing pvp in other White Wolf games (Werewolf and Vampire Crossover?). Are you look for any type of system in particular (d20, etc.)?

[Sarco_Phage]

That's kind of why I'm asking. Just pulling any old system and letting players go at it seem volatile and risky, given that the system probably isn't meant to be used that way. I'm hoping that systems specifically designed for PvP (is they exist) will be better at handling such concerns.

Humh. Yeah, that's sensible. 4e for example is awful at PvP, being built as a team game, whilst 3.5's problems are more rooted in the fact that the top tier builds are on top because they don't merely break the game but snap it in half over one knee.

[Caemos]

Sorry, just remembered: You could also check out the Munchkin d20 RPG. The game's intention is to have the players fight and back-stab each other. I can't vouch for the RPG itself, but I've played the card and board game versions and they were a lot of fun.

[Weimann]

Was going to suggest Exalted (There are scenarios where one character will go crazy and the rest have to try and take him/her down. And there's a lot of kung fu), but then I saw your sig, so I guess you're already familiar with it:smallsmile:.You could say that :smallwink: While I wish Exalted would work, the fact of the matter is that the combat mechanics are broken as hell. In a PvP game, you will be wanting to optimise your character, and optimised characters either means that the game will be oven in one attack or it will dredge on with great predictability until someone throws their hands up and surrenders out of frustration and because they have better things to waste their time on. I have a flickering hope set to errata arriving, but I'm not sure I actually think it will manage to dig deep enough into the foundation of the game to do any good.


I have heard of people doing pvp in other White Wolf games (Werewolf and Vampire Crossover?).That could be interesting. It's on The List.


Are you look for any type of system in particular (d20, etc.)?Nah, any system is fine, I'm here to pick up tips, not settle on anything.


Humh. Yeah, that's sensible. 4e for example is awful at PvP, being built as a team game, whilst 3.5's problems are more rooted in the fact that the top tier builds are on top because they don't merely break the game but snap it in half over one knee.I had a feeling the D&D incarnations wouldn't be high on the list :smalltongue:


Sorry, just remembered: You could also check out the Munchkin d20 RPG. The game's intention is to have the players fight and back-stab each other. I can't vouch for the RPG itself, but I've played the card and board game versions and they were a lot of fun.I've not played Munchkin, but I have played Ninja Burger from the same company. Thanks for the tip, it's on The List.

[Caemos]

You could say that :smallwink: While I wish Exalted would work, the fact of the matter is that the combat mechanics are broken as hell. In a PvP game, you will be wanting to optimise your character, and optimised characters either means that the game will be oven in one attack or it will dredge on with great predictability until someone throws their hands up and surrenders out of frustration and because they have better things to waste their time on. I have a flickering hope set to errata arriving, but I'm not sure I actually think it will manage to dig deep enough into the foundation of the game to do any good.

:smalleek:Interesting. What makes the fight drag on predictably? Does everyone just do perfect defenses until they run out of juice? Sorry, I'm asking because I've actually just started up an Exalted campaign two months ago with some friends, and I'm about to throw some Terrestrial NPCs I'm building at them in two sessions. They did just release some more errata this year (Scroll of Errata) that seemed to clear up a large number of problems I was having earlier. I don't know if that will fix the broken aspects of combat, or combat between players.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hackmaster is good for competitive Players vs DM, if you want to do that. It's overtly designed that way...

[Teln]

:smalleek:Interesting. What makes the fight drag on predictably? Does everyone just do perfect defenses until they run out of juice?

Afraid so. At high optimization, they make and spam entire Combos designed to do nothing except "keep me invincible".


Sorry, I'm asking because I've actually just started up an Exalted campaign two months ago with some friends, and I'm about to throw some Terrestrial NPCs I'm building at them in two sessions. They did just release some more errata this year (Scroll of Errata) that seemed to clear up a large number of problems I was having earlier. I don't know if that will fix the broken aspects of combat, or combat between players.

Frankly, Errata Team Prime doesn't have the authority to delve deeply enough into Exalted's mechanics to fix the "paranoia combat" problem. Any real fix is going to have to wait for a hypothetical 3rd Edition.

[Weimann]

:smalleek:Interesting. What makes the fight drag on predictably? Does everyone just do perfect defenses until they run out of juice?
Afraid so. At high optimization, they make and spam entire Combos designed to do nothing except "keep me invincible".Yeah, as Teln says. The problem is complex. In a nutshell:

1) Lethality in the system is great. If you don't defend against incoming attacks, there's a good chance you'll last only one hit even using only basic charms. Taking damage is generally not an option, and if your DV doesn't stop it, then you have to use charms. This is a design choice, but it got out of proportion as the system evolved.

2) Perfects are both cheap to activate, easy to obtain and spammable. So when you have a situation where you use a charm, why not use a perfect? It negates all of the incoming attack perfectly, often for a set price of 3 or 5 motes.

3) This makes your mote pool your effective health pool. This wouldn't be such a great problem if it was the intention of the designer, because after all, health levels is the same thing; a resource that dwindles and then you lose. The problem is, motes can be recovered in battle. By stunting. When you succeed on a stunted action, you regain a number of motes. Guess what the point of perfect defenses are? They always succeed. You can see where this is going.

Exalted is an awesome system fluffwise, but the mechanics are either well-intentioned and poorly executed or just straight copy-pasted from the earlier edition and not paid further heed. It's being worked on, but it's slow coming.


Sorry, I'm asking because I've actually just started up an Exalted campaign two months ago with some friends, and I'm about to throw some Terrestrial NPCs I'm building at them in two sessions. They did just release some more errata this year (Scroll of Errata) that seemed to clear up a large number of problems I was having earlier. I don't know if that will fix the broken aspects of combat, or combat between players.It can be avoided, but one of the problems with it is that it's so darn easy to stumble over. The system really encourages you to do this; it's not a PunPun type build where you have to look at obscure source books and make questionable interpretations of poorly worded text and think through several lines of reasoning to encounter; no, it's in fact something that any newbie who looked at the characters and said "I want to fight with a huge hammer and be super strong and never lose!" could simply do by accident and not even realise it's breaking the game.

The best way to avoid it is knowing about it and actively not go there. If the players promises to not take the broken stuff, the ST promises that they won't need them. But yeah, it's far from ideal.

On the other hand, your group might not have a problem with it, or it may not come up at all. Remember, I'm cynical and bitter :smallbiggrin:


Frankly, Errata Team Prime doesn't have the authority to delve deeply enough into Exalted's mechanics to fix the "paranoia combat" problem. Any real fix is going to have to wait for a hypothetical 3rd Edition.In fact, Michel Goodwin (Nephilial on the offiial forums), one of the people in Errata Team Prime, an Ink Monkey and author of Abyssals and Infernals have stated that he has drawn the preliminary first draft of a solution to lethality, but it will "be playtested to hell and back" before we even get to peek at it. He has put this forth as a part of what the freelancers have stared to call "edition 2.5" between themselves. This makes my hopeful, if not entirely convinced it'll actually work.

[Weimann]

Hackmaster is good for competitive Players vs DM, if you want to do that. It's overtly designed that way...Hm, I'll look at it. However, I was more hoping for a system where the DM did not have to be involved; in fact, the more one could rely on consistent rules rather than GM judgement, the better. Still, adding it to The List. Thanks.

Another question thrown out there: theoretically, what do you think would be good things to have in a PvP game?

I'm personally thinking high survivability, but at cost of resources. Likewise, dice and other random effects should be kept on the low. Performance should depend more on the outcome of the individual match than on the numbers at at character creation. I'm thinking super and ultra meters like in street Fighters, and some kind of Fate Point equivalent to interact with environment and such. Sounds horribly hard to write, though.

[sailor_grenoble]

well, there was the Street Fighter RPG published by WW in 1994, which was surprinsigly not bad (it was designed for martial arts and people hitting each other in the face).
it has been out of print for quite some time, but it might be possible to find one copy on ebay (just checked: there's one for sale right now, for around 15 dollars, shipping included)

otherwise, any system where hitting people actually matters, and in which characters have actual combat skills and techniques, might do the trick (GURPS, for example, works perfectly for this, especially if you add Martial Arts and Power Ups 1: Imbuements (for things like putting your fist or sword on fire, for example))

[Caemos]

You might also try the Marvel Universe RPG. That was entirely variable-less. You committed a certain number of 'points' for each action-certain attacks, defending, moving, flying or shooting eye lasers, whatever. Whoever spent the most energy into a certain task was going to succeed (in that task), the problem was you didn't usually know what the other guy was doing, or how easily he could do certain things.

Thanks for the info on Exalted, Teln and Weimann. Last question concerning the pvp there: would putting a limit on the number of perfect defenses a player can perform help with fixing the issue?

[Feriority]

You might also try the Marvel Universe RPG. That was entirely variable-less. You committed a certain number of 'points' for each action-certain attacks, defending, moving, flying or shooting eye lasers, whatever. Whoever spent the most energy into a certain task was going to succeed (in that task), the problem was you didn't usually know what the other guy was doing, or how easily he could do certain things.

Thanks for the info on Exalted, Teln and Weimann. Last question concerning the pvp there: would putting a limit on the number of perfect defenses a player can perform help with fixing the issue?

It would prevent endless perfect defense spam, but then brings you back to the problem of overly high lethality.

[Weimann]

GURPS, Marvel Universe and Street Fighter added to The List. Thanks.


Thanks for the info on Exalted, Teln and Weimann. Last question concerning the pvp there: would putting a limit on the number of perfect defenses a player can perform help with fixing the issue?Not as such. It would help end battles faster, sure, but it would also essentially be like saying that "every battle will last for X actions, then you die". That's not a good way of doing it. There is no excitement in that.

This problem is hard. Single games can be able to solve it through house rules or gentlemen's agreements, but a consistent, high quality solution to the problem has been discussed for ages on the Exalted forum and no one can come up with anything better than "rewrite the combat system and every weapon and combat charm in the game from the ground up". I dare say the promise of a lethality fix from the freelancers is what warrants the 2.5e title they've started using recently; fixing lethality would indeed involve reshaping the entire system at the core.

But again, my advice is to begin playing, and if you find that combat presents problems for you, then see if you can work out something that works for you. There's no need for surgery if a band-aid does the trick.