how do you make death matter?

[big teej]

I've seen many people espouse the idea that 'starting one level below party average' or 'at same level, but minimum xp' is what they do to make death matter (especially in the event of a re-roll as opposed to bringing them back)


but, having run the numbers.


this permanently places the new character behind the survivors.

heck, in a recent thread regarding xp costs, somebody put forth the idea that if you fall so much as 100 xp behind everyone else, you will NEVER catch up.


so, I come to the playground with two questions.

1. is this true?
2. what do you do about character death? I believe it should matter, so I'm opposed to them just bringing in a new character like nothing happened. but I don't want to cripple a player's fun over that.


tl;dr - how does your party handle death so that death IS something to be avoided?

[TroubleBrewing]

Usually, if a player dies in one of my D&D games, I start them off with a new character at one level lower than their previous character. If the way they died was a) suitably epic for my tastes, b) just plain unlucky to the point of pity, or c) funny as hell, I'll occasionally let them re-roll at the same level.

In my Call of Cthulhu games, if a player dies, they are out for good. Death has real consequences in my CoC games.

[Aemoh87]

I make my characters start off at the starting level of the campaign. I also make resurrections difficult to get. So players often find themselves begging other players to quest to get them res'd.

[Starscream]

Some tricks I've used:

1) Make the remaining characters complete some sort of quest to return their comrade to life. Like the gods won't release their soul unless you do something for them. Way more involving than simply "cough up 5000 gp in diamonds". And this way even if the character comes back at the same level, the others will be a little bit ahead, because they get xp from this quest.

2) Make the dead person perform a quest. Perfect opportunity for a solo mission. They are in the afterlife, and either have to escape, or prove themselves worthy to whoever is in charge.

3) Make there be a decent chance of something going wrong. The dead character may return possessed, or undead, or with a radical alignment shift. Or maybe they are living on "borrowed time" now. In order to leave the afterlife, they had to make some sort of dodgy deal, and now must accomplish something important before the clock runs out, or they are damned. Think All Dogs go to Heaven.

Fun House Rule of mine to make deaths more epic: The Dying Badass Law.

When a character hits -10 hp they don't die right away. Instead they live for one more round and can be awesome. For this one round any rolls they make are 20s, damage rolls are maxed, and spellcasters get a free slot of their highest level (though depending on the class, other features may be free).

But nothing they do can save their life. They are dead, they just haven't stopped moving yet. They get to go out with a bang, make a major difference in the fight, and then die. This can make a big difference in an encounter that turned out too hard for the PCs, and turn the tide enough to prevent a TPK.

The downside is that if you choose to invoke this rule, your character can't come back ever. They are at peace, having sacrificed themselves heroically. So when you hit -10 you can either die normally and hope for resurrection, or make sure that your character's final moment was an awesome one.

[Hirax]

this permanently places the new character behind the survivors.

heck, in a recent thread regarding xp costs, somebody put forth the idea that if you fall so much as 100 xp behind everyone else, you will NEVER catch up.

1. is this true?
2. what do you do about character death? I believe it should matter, so I'm opposed to them just bringing in a new character like nothing happened. but I don't want to cripple a player's fun over that.


tl;dr - how does your party handle death so that death IS something to be avoided?

1. Bolded section is demonstrably false. D&D's exp system is designed to cause everyone to equalize their exp over time. Let's say you craft a magic item and it costs you 50 exp, and that 50 exp is exactly what you otherwise would have needed to level up with the party. The next time exp is handed out, you will, unless it's a very small exp gain, actually overtake everyone else on total exp, because since you're a lower level, you'll be getting more exp from the same encounter(s).

2. Depends on the party's level spread. Multiple deaths, resurrections, and other instances of exp loss can result in a spread of exp levels. The people I play with generally have the person that died most recently a level below the next lowest person if there isn't much spread. If putting them a level below the next lowest person would create a wider spread though, (IE, more than 2 levels of difference), we'll put them at the same exp level as whoever else in the party has the least exp.

[PollyOliver]

In my group, a new character usually comes in at the same level as the rest of the party. It isn't particularly fun otherwise, and given the mortality rate in some of our games, it would be really, really crippling. At low levels, resurrections are very hard to come by unless you've performed a suitably awesome service for a friendly high-level cleric.

We have one guy in our group who never comes back when he dies; strange things happen to to his body by DM fiat because the player prefers death to be final. Personally, I get rather attached to a character after a few levels.

But anyway, I think this is a more group-by-group thing. My real-life group doesn't think it's fun or fair to gimp a player's new character because the old one died. Some groups think that death having consequences is important enough to merit a level loss. I think it just depends.

[Shpadoinkle]

The penalty of having to sit out a good portion of a session (usually,) cough up 5K, and lose a level is enough incentive for most players, I find. Then again, I've never played in a campaign that went beyond level 12.

[Ravens_cry]

It's hard. If you make resurrection too easy, death does not matter because you can just come back. If you make it so such things are not available or hard to get, they will likely just comeback with a different charachter, reducing investment and engagement as well as making death not matter.
I honestly do not have a solution, but it is something to think about.

[No brains]

The best way to make death matter is to take full advantage of it.

The notorious party of adventurers has lost one of the wheels of their battle machine. Now is the time to strike.

Make their enemies bloodthirsty in the extreme and have the party get sacked relentlessly in their weak spot.

This makes death matter a LOT not only can't the player play until they can get revived, but sleeping on the job could potentially effect everyone. Nobody wants to be the one who ruined the game, and if you make it clear that enemies will take every chance to hit as hard as they can if one of them falls, players will try really, really hard not to die for the whole party, nay, whole game's sake!

[bloodtide]

1.I'm not sure about 'never' catch up. First your assuming that every character in a group is exactly the same level and in 100 xp of each other? I'm not sure this can ever happen. After all spellcasting, item creation and level drain can all lead to XP loss.

2.I've almost always stared a new PC at 1st level. Even if the rest of the group is like 15th level. With good players, they will protect the lower level one(after all it will be them some day). It's easy enough for the lower level player to stay out of direct danger.

Sometimes I'll let a player start as a powerful race, but still at 1st level. This works out nice as the character gets AC,HP, and such...but no class abilities.

The powerful item trick also works. Give the 1st level character a sword +5, or an amulet of magic or such as part of a quest/destiny. Or anyone of a dozen useful magic items, something that gives +15 temp hp or heals 3/d.


Death often matters a lot as Players loose everything they had in the world. Not just items, but contacts and histories and such. For example they knew a wizard that sold them potions at half price...and now they don't know him any more(and even if they did, that character is not the one that saved his wife, so no discount).

[Alleran]

If somebody dies in one of my campaigns, I allow the party to attempt getting a Raise Dead, Resurrection or True Resurrection cast on the player. However, if they go to a temple or church for it, they will run into three things:

1) Spells like this are expensive in material components.
2) Spells like this require a moderately high level priest.
3) Why would the priest just agree to do it?

Assuming that the party has enough to fulfill the first condition, and find a temple that fulfills the second condition, this leaves the third. These are divine spells we're talking about, power granted to the priest directly by the deity he (or she) prays to. If the priest prays to the god to grant him the spell, why would the god agree? And why would the priest waste the casting of it? Usually, instead of casting it outright or just praying for the spell, he will require that the party first go on some sort of quest for him, one that serves the needs of his deity. Only then will the god grant the spell (or, rather, only then will he agree to pray for the spell and cast it once he has it).

It usually works out that the party gains maybe a level at the absolute most, so when the dead PC is returned, he'll be a level or two behind the party. That's also where I start new PCs anyway, so it comes out roughly even in the end.

[zephyrkinetic]

Honestly, my players are all super-invested in their characters. By the time we get to a point that I'd let them die for reals (I'll fudge rolls if something terrible happens in the first couple of sessions), they're in love. They'll stay alive because they feel like they really have to.

[PollyOliver]

They'll stay alive because they feel like they really have to.

This, definitely, in my RL group.

Alleran, that makes a lot of in-world sense, but what do you do with the character-less player for the duration of the quest? Depending on how long the quest is, that's a lot of thumb-twiddling. Anyone in our group would die of restlessness if they had to sit out for a whole level's worth of time, though maybe your players have more patience than us. :smallsmile:

[Amphetryon]

The grognards on the boards may remember the fact that in previous editions of D&D (before 3.0), it often cost you CON to come back from the dead. If that loss is made permanent in such a way that it can only be obviated by Miracle/Wish level magic, it becomes a pretty onerous cost.

[Particle_Man]

2. what do you do about character death? I believe it should matter, so I'm opposed to them just bringing in a new character like nothing happened. but I don't want to cripple a player's fun over that.

If you mean "how should it matter that the old character isn't in the party anymore", you could build a complex web of NPC associations that are now inaccessible because they were tied to the dead character.

But you might also go with the stick instead of the carrot. If the player keeps their old character, they start at the beginning xp for their current level instead of losing a level. If they start a new character they start one level down. Thus the players don't feel screwed but they have a reason to want their original character to be maintained.

[Frozen_Feet]

1. is this true?
2. what do you do about character death? I believe it should matter, so I'm opposed to them just bringing in a new character like nothing happened. but I don't want to cripple a player's fun over that.


tl;dr - how does your party handle death so that death IS something to be avoided?

Uh, death being a crippling condition makes it something to be avoided. Absolute party balance is not required for fun. Being behind by one level rarely is a major decrease in effectiveness. A linear, always-upward level progression is not required for fun either. If you fool yourself into thinking that, you'll be shooting yourself in the foot, as it limits your options as a GM.

In my games, when a PC dies, they pick up one of their surviving retainers and start playing that character. If there aren't any, it's "start again from level one" time. This regardless of how high-level other party member might be. Of course, if resurrection magic (etc.) is available, that's an option too.

Sometimes, players bitch and moan about it, yes - but they bitch and moan about several other inconsequental things as well. I tackle that by being steadfast, consistent and enforcing the rule in each case it comes up. Sometimes, for an experience to be overall more enjoyable, you must disregard pleasing everyone all the time. In a system with a stated GM, the GM can't be too averse to making such decision calls. Once the players accept the given framework, they adapt to it and the game sets on its tracks.

My current group has heavily alternating amount of players per session. At most, there are ten plus me. New players come and go, and practically no-one makes it to all sessions, and new players come and go, which leads to their characters being all over the level spectrum. They have, on average, 1.5 characters per player - not counting level 1 NPCs who are there just to take care of their possessions.

The trick to handling this massive cast herd is being a flexible GM and open to player suggestions and inspiration. You also must learn to disregard such concepts as "WBL" or "four ECL-appropriate encounters per day" when necessary. They're guidelines, slavishly adhering to them limits possible games severly. You must learn to, for example, throw huge numbers of low-level adversaries at the mixed party. Higher-level people will be more effective, yes - but the lower level folk can contribute too! Many problems with some characters falling to wayside are caused by the fact that lot of people make their encounters too narrow - you absolutely must be above a certain treshold to be able to do much anything. Challenges the players face need not be in linear progression of difficulty! Neither need all the players be focused on single task - give options. More people can do more things, no matter their levels.

Back to my group: the players who've been around most obviously have highest-level characters - but as a direct result they're also more invested in them. They know it took work to get there, and they know they can lose significant amount of it if they're careless. Which is good, since it makes them think, and consequently makes them play their characters more as real people who do not want to risk their life needlessly.

I keep newer players involved by adressing them frequently and keeping them in a long leash - as convenient as it might be for a GM, I don't force my players to work as one all the time, and allow them to wander and focus on many things at once.

The XP system of D&D 3.5 is designed to even out differences in time, so players who stay involved eventually reach a similar level of power. Those who don't obviously stay behind, but don't think of it as a penalizing them, think of it as rewarding those who stick around.

But you know what else evens the playgroung? Death. Those who play more are also more likely to screw up sometime, which sets them back - sometimes so much that the tables are turned and the less frequent players find their time in the limelight when their characters are the strongest ones left. There's more to D&D, and definitely more to roleplaying than just getting to the next level. A game can be rewarding without character progression being a smooth upward curve. Teach your players to value things other than just pretty trinkets and nuggets of mechanical strenght.

[Alleran]

Alleran, that makes a lot of in-world sense, but what do you do with the character-less player for the duration of the quest? Depending on how long the quest is, that's a lot of thumb-twiddling. Anyone in our group would die of restlessness if they had to sit out for a whole level's worth of time, though maybe your players have more patience than us. :smallsmile:
It usually takes about a session, maybe two at the most. The currently-dead player either uses an NPC character temporarily (i.e. helps the DM - usually me - roll in fights and so on), or waits. We usually get them rezzed extremely fast, since the party never wastes time or resources about getting their friend back. Sometimes, they go into significant levels of overkill on how much they use up to get them resurrected.

[Jack_Simth]

tl;dr - how does your party handle death so that death IS something to be avoided?
You make a judgment call among conflicting goals.

The overall goal of the game is fun for everyone involved. You have a problem with death not mattering, making the game less fun from one perspective. However....

1) If you just get a replacement character at near the same power, death is cheap (ID'd as being a problem).
2) If it's just the cost of a Raise Dead spell and one lost level, death is reasonably cheap (ID'd as being a problem).
3) If you have a player sitting on the sidelines for an extended period of time (aka, quest to get him rezzed), that player is not having fun (contrary to the overall goal of the game - a problem).
4) If you have the player roll up a new character at campaign-start-level, then you've got something that works for a few levels, but unless it's a relatively short campaign, you end up with a wide power discrepancy among the players after a point - which pretty much means you have the newly-dead unable to contribute effectively, which is not fun for that player (and not fun for the DM in trying to balance encounters - contrary to the overall goal of the game).

There is no general solution. You can come to peace with one balance point for a given table... but there is no general solution.