Rogue with 1 level of wizard: viable?

[suszterpatt]

I never actually played PnP. Most of my experience with DnD comes from computer games that take their fair share of liberties with the rules (Neverwinter Nights 2 and Dungeon and Dragons Online, specifically), and perusing the SRD out of curiosity (mostly when OotS makes a reference to something I'm not familiar with, or comparing differences between video game and PnP rules).


Still, I might try PnP in later life, and just browsing through the SRD, I fancy the idea of a high INT rogue with just 1 level of wizard. Most 0th and 1st level spells seem to have excellent utility for a variety of tasks (Grease and Animate Rope for escaping tight spots, True Strike for when you absolutely need to get a sneak attack in, even Disguise Self combined with bluff checks for social situations, the list goes on). Sure, I wouldn't get many spells per day, and the ones that scale with level will be weak, but it looks like a great boost to the character's versatility, and it's my impression that that's what rogues are all about. And there's some other fringe benefits as well, like a weasel familiar for +2 reflex.


Perhaps I just reinvented the wheel and this is already a popular build. Perhaps it's not worth multiclassing for. I wouldn't know. So I turn to the collective experience of the playground for comments, stories, opinions etc. Fire away. :smallsmile:

[Ravens_cry]

Well, now a large chunk of wands are usable for you. That's a plus. Also, you can UMD scrolls, which are cheaper then wands. You already are likely to have highish intelligence, so it's good synergy there.
Did you know that you can sneak attack with weapon-like spells?
The only thing you are losing is 6 skill points for one level and delaying certain rogue class feature progression by one level, so yeah, definitely viable.

[paddyfool]

What Ravens_cry said. Just make sure it's not your first level, and you should be able to have fun with this.

[Gray Mage]

Well, you don't lose anything by having only 19 levels of rogue instead of 20, and some first level spells stay good at later levels (true strike, ray of enfeeblement, disguise self, the protection agains X line isn't bad as well, mainly any spell that doesn't allow a save). There are better dips, but wizard is a valid one.

[TechnOkami]

I'd give the name of that rogue wizard PrC, but I can't remember the name... daggerspell mage or something like that?

[Greenish]

I'd give the name of that rogue wizard PrC, but I can't remember the name... daggerspell mage or something like that?There are several. Daggerspell Mage is a bit meh, Unseen Seer is excellent, Spellwarp Sniper is decent. Well, the latter isn't exactly rogue/wizard, but still.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'd give the name of that rogue wizard PrC, but I can't remember the name... daggerspell mage or something like that?

There are a lot, to name a few, Arcane Trickster (SRD/DMG), Spellwarp Sniper (CSco), Unseen Seer (CMage), I think there are more but they are setting specific.

Edit:Somewhat Swordsag'ed; but at least I had the sources...

[Greenish]

There are a lot, to name a few, Arcane Trickster (SRD/DMG), Spellwarp Sniper (CSco), Unseen Seer (CMage), I think there are more but they are setting specific.What setting specific PrCs were you thinking of? Magelord?

[SilverClawShift]

The problem with dipping a level of wizard is that it's habit forming.

Cause two more levels of wizard and you can cast Invisibility as an extra layer of hiding goodness.
Or spiderclimb for those towers too high for grappling hooks and risky climb checks.
Or Levitate for those Mission Impossible "Stealing from the ceiling' moments.
Or Locate Object.
Or Detect Thoughts...

I mean. Come on, do you REALLY need that extra 1d6 sneak attack when you can trade it for the ability to crawl silently across the ceiling and levitate valuables up to you? Yeah. Yeah, take the extra two levels. It's no big deal, you can quit anytime you want, right?

Of course then you're only two more levels away from third level spells. Shrink Item, when, you know, you've got that wild urge to steal a marble statue.
And Water Breathing for hiding where they'd least expect.
And dispel magic for those tricky enchanted doors in your way.
And phantom steed for those unexpected quick getaways.

It's just two more levels. And hey, bonus feat! No big deal. You can stop there. Afterall, 4th levels spells aren't that great. I mean, stoneshape? What thief needs to be able to melt away stone walls and re-arrange castle hallways? Silly. Dimension door? Greater Invisibility? Why would a thief want to teleport around invisible in broad daylight. Pass.

Before you know it you're a wizard who happens to steal stuff and has a 1d6 sneak attack for reasons they can't remember.

[Ravens_cry]

Major off topic, but whenever I see the words "habit forming" I think of this (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/488.html) and all it's variation on this theme.

[Greenish]

Major off topic, but whenever I see the words "habit forming" I think of this (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/488.html) and all it's variation on this theme.And you just had to inflict that on us?

[Dusk Eclipse]

What setting specific PrCs were you thinking of? Magelord?

I didn't have one specifically in mind; but I am sure the must exist in some setting splatbook.

[Ravens_cry]

And you just had to inflict that on us?
Schadenfreude, share the pain.:smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

The problem with dipping a level of wizard is that it's habit forming.
...
I mean. Come on, do you REALLY need that extra 1d6 sneak attack when you can trade it for the ability to crawl silently across the ceiling and levitate valuables up to you? Yeah. Yeah, take the extra two levels. It's no big deal, you can quit anytime you want, right?
It's more than "that extra 1d6 sneak attack". You're also delaying access to the Rogue special abilities that don't become available until level 10 and the Savvy Rogue feat which improves on all of them. Depending on where you insert the Wizard dip(s) you're also leaving yourself vulnerable because you didn't yet obtain evasion, uncanny dodge, or improved uncanny dodge. You'll also keep your Reflex save low, meaning even if you have evasion you won't get as much benefit from it.

Alternatively, you could skip the Wizard levels entirely and obtain wands with the gp your class skills make much more readily available, and boost your Use Magic Device so you can use those wands. Why fritter away 3 whole levels to be able to cast Invisibility (good for just one attack), when you could instead acquire a wand of Greater Invisibility and stay hidden for many full attacks?

Some habits are never good for you. Smoking, Wizard dips, ... :smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

Just be a Factotum! They are better than rogues at roguing anyway, and get access to some useful spells...

[Darth Stabber]

It is a perfectly valid dip (I haven't done it but a sorcerer dip is similar enough, and I have done that), but as mentioned before, it's really hard to resist the temptation to just stay a wizard. If you do manage it, you are contending with really low duration spells, though that may not deter you. Just remember that you are adding one level of the best class to a mediocre class. Most wizard//rogue prestige classes require 2nd level spells, necessitating 3 levels of wizard (unless the gm allows the cheesy precocious apprentice trick). I can't remember any of the others off hand, but you need 2nd level spells and 2d6 sneak attack for arcane trickster. If you gm will let you cheese it, you can get in at wizard1/rogue3 via precocious apprentice.

For the uninitiated, precocious apprentice is a feat that allows a level1 wizard to have 1 2nd level spell per day. Depending on how it is read, it makes it really easy to get into a great many prestige classes.

[Ruinix]

take the variant martial wizard and that's a free feat. (UA p59)
also take the variant inmediate magic (PH2 p68) to get abrupt jaunt for improve you survival.
both on that only 1 level :D

[Greenish]

It is a perfectly valid dip (I haven't done it but a sorcerer dip is similar enough, and I have done that), but as mentioned before, it's really hard to resist the temptation to just stay a wizard. If you do manage it, you are contending with really low duration spells, though that may not deter you. Just remember that you are adding one level of the best class to a mediocre class. Most wizard//rogue prestige classes require 2nd level spells, necessitating 3 levels of wizard (unless the gm allows the cheesy precocious apprentice trick). I can't remember any of the others off hand, but you need 2nd level spells and 2d6 sneak attack for arcane trickster.Unseen Seer can be entered with just one level in wizard, if my memory serves.

[Lateral]

Yeah, Wizard can be a great dip. There are better ones (*cough*Cleric*cough*), but it's a good one for utilities.

[Thespianus]

It's more than "that extra 1d6 sneak attack". You're also delaying access to the Rogue special abilities that don't become available until level 10 and the Savvy Rogue feat which improves on all of them.
Buuut, with a one level Conjurer-dip, with the UA "Fighter Wizard"-ACF, you gain:

- Abrupt Jaunt (insanely good for a Rogue, either to avoid getting creamed, or getting that full attack in by teleporting to a flanking position, or just for general teleportation fun)
- One extra Fighter feat. Weapon Finesse may help a Rogue a lot, for example.

You can also go into Unseen Seer for a few levels, just for the fun of it.

It's not a bad dip. It ain't Cloistered Cleric, but it ain't Samurai either. ;)

EDIT: Swordsages, everywhere.

[Darth Stabber]

Cleric (especially the cloistered variant), make for a superior dip, because you still get spells (though from a different list), and 2 domains (Plus knowledge domain if cloistered), and several domain abilities are as good as feats on their own. Pick up the magic domain and you can avoid a lot of umd rolls. And you can still wear your armor without risking spell failure. I may be the only one, but I have twice ended up being responsible for out of combat healing as a rogue (via cureX wands), and let me say that you can get a lot out of a one level dip like that (especially with magic domain).

[Forged Fury]

I do it with the Silver Key Prestige Class (Focused Specialist Abjurer) since the PRC adds the ability to cast abjuration spells in light armor. With that said, Silver Key is not a particularly powerful combat PrC and has a very niche utility.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Warlock can make a very useful dip. It's whole shtick is doing stuff an unlimited number of times, and comes with a ranged touch attack that you can sneak attack with. A one-level dip, with a two-feat investment, can net you Hide in Plain Sight. Or, can net you +6 on various skill checks. Or you get Spiderclimb at-will. Or shatter at-will.

[Gaius Marius]

Warlock/ Or shatter at-will.

and since it only takes a semantic move, you can do it even in a Silence spell.

Shatter traps and locks away.

[Greenish]

and since it only takes a semantic move, you can do it even in a Silence spell."Semantic" and "somatic" are not synonymous. :smallamused:

[JaronK]

If you want to play a magical rogue character, consider Beguiler or Factotum, which are classes designed for this.

JaronK

[Ravens_cry]

Ah yes, the grand assumption that every player has every book ever.:smallannoyed:

[Gaius Marius]

"Semantic" and "somatic" are not synonymous. :smallamused:

But people said they loved Cicero's supreme semantic..

Oh.. Oooooooh... :smalleek:

[JaronK]

Ah yes, the grand assumption that every player has every book ever.:smallannoyed:

Because saying "consider" means "you have to do this."

Seriously though, it's not some horrible sin to mention that there are classes designed specifically for what the OP wanted. Having been through this same logical train (I like playing a Rogue, I want something more magical but still with that feel, I'll try dipping some Sorc/Wiz, this isn't working, Spellthief doesn't work either... oh look, this Factotum and Beguiler! They do what I wanted!) I'm just helping out.

JaronK

[HunterOfJello]

A PHB generalist wizard 1 is definitely a good dip for a rogue character. A Wizard 1 dip that uses multiple alternate class features and specializes well can be awesome.


Using one of the variants from Unearthed Arcana, you can give up Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Bonus feat.

There are also a ton of options available for giving up your familiar, or you can keep your familiar and gain Alertness, a small bonus based on the familiar's type and an extra set of eyes and ears.

[Ravens_cry]

Because saying "consider" means "you have to do this."

Seriously though, it's not some horrible sin to mention that there are classes designed specifically for what the OP wanted. Having been through this same logical train (I like playing a Rogue, I want something more magical but still with that feel, I'll try dipping some Sorc/Wiz, this isn't working, Spellthief doesn't work either... oh look, this Factotum and Beguiler! They do what I wanted!) I'm just helping out.

JaronK
I am sorry, I am a bit prickly on this issue.:smallsmile:

[Jack Zander]

If you want to play a magical rogue character, consider Beguiler or Factotum, which are classes designed for this.

JaronK

Neither of these two classes can sneak attack as well as a rogue though. I'll take a 1 level wizard dip for the ability to cast any wizard spell up to 4th level ever while wearing armor plus all of my rogue abilities (rogue 20 is a dead level anyway) over those other options any day.

[ericgrau]

Normally I view wizard 1 dips as a way to get wand and scroll access. You can use wands of any level without spell failure chance. You can use scrolls of any level, but it's an easy caster level check for scrolls of caster level 2 and higher (DC 1 + scroll caster level). And scrolls have an armor spell failure chance. True strike and feather fall are also nice. These also have no somatic component and thus no spell failure chance in armor. At higher levels you can get a rod of lesser quicken to quicken your true strikes.

The thing about doing this on a rogue, however, is that once you hit about level 10-12 you can do the same thing with use magic device. Even at lower levels you can use utility scrolls by retrying multiple times until it works, since you usually have plenty of time to cast non-combat spells. I'd suggest using wizard 1 for early wand access and then at higher levels switching into a rogue/wizard prestige class so you don't waste that obsolete wizard level.

If you only want level 1 spells then potions, oils are only 50 gp a pop. Wondrous items are a little more but still cheap. Don't waste a level on it.

[Lateral]

Neither of these two classes can sneak attack as well as a rogue though. I'll take a 1 level wizard dip for the ability to cast any wizard spell up to 4th level ever while wearing armor plus all of my rogue abilities (rogue 20 is a dead level anyway) over those other options any day.

How are you doing this, exactly? Wizard 1 gets you 1st level spells and you'd have ASF in armor. Hell, Beguiler gets 9th level spells and armor, and Sneak Attack isn't that great of a mechanic anyway. Woo, I can do blargh-d6 damage to the dragon when he's flanked or loses Dex to AC. A factotum smashes the action economy into little tiny pieces, and a Beguiler would just mindrape the thing.

[ericgrau]

Probably wands. They have no ASF. But actually you can go up to 9th level spells with staffs and all it takes is 1 level of wizard.

[Curmudgeon]

Neither of these two classes can sneak attack as well as a rogue though. I'll take a 1 level wizard dip for the ability to cast any wizard spell up to 4th level ever
But the Wizard part is just ineffective. As Lateral and Thespianus have already pointed out, a Cloistered Cleric dip is that and much more:

more hit points
better saves
more class skills
more skill points
Cleric and Wizard spells (via wands & scrolls) from the Magic domain
Knowledge and one other domain, convertible to domain feats
undead turn attempts, which can power those domain feats

... vs. Scribe Scroll and Summon Familiar, which are both pretty much worthless when you're never going to go higher than Wizard level 1.

[Greenish]

... vs. Scribe Scroll and Summon Familiar, which are both pretty much worthless when you're never going to go higher than Wizard level 1.Of course, the Scribe Scroll can be swapped to any fighter feat, and familiar to, say, Abrupt Jaunt, as mentioned before.

Not as good as the cleric dip, but not bad.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Level of sorcerer is better, IMO, as you get two extra spells per day. The best first level spells are ray of enfeeblement (strength damage, no save) and true strike (+20 to hit, when you absolutely need a sneak attack).

[Greenish]

Level of sorcerer is better, IMO, as you get two extra spells per day. The best first level spells are ray of enfeeblement (strength damage, no save) and true strike (+20 to hit, when you absolutely need a sneak attack).Well, unless you take the AFCs into account. Focused Specialist matches the spellslots and has synergy with Int, which is arguably more important stat for a rogue than Cha.

Then there's the free feat and Abjurant Jaunt. No competition, really.

[Jack Zander]

But the Wizard part is just ineffective. As Lateral and Thespianus have already pointed out, a Cloistered Cleric dip is that and much more:

more hit points
better saves
more class skills
more skill points
Cleric and Wizard spells (via wands & scrolls) from the Magic domain
Knowledge and one other domain, convertible to domain feats
undead turn attempts, which can power those domain feats

... vs. Scribe Scroll and Summon Familiar, which are both pretty much worthless when you're never going to go higher than Wizard level 1.

I disagree, and here is why.

As a rogue, you'll most likely have a decent intelligence already. Wisdom isn't always guaranteed. I know many of my rouges actually dump wisdom in an effort to keep Dex and Int high, while also trying to keep Str, Con, and Cha respectable.

Wizard spell list is better. I'll give you that you can take the magic domain, but there isn't much that the cleric spell list could give my rogue that I wouldn't already have with my wizard spell list, and I'd rather be able to cast the few first level spells I have from a wizard list. Quickened grease? Yes please.

You can easily get light armor with no spell failure chance, and with a high enough dexterity, you may want to forgo armor all together and simply use mage armor, or bracers.

Scribe Scroll can be traded for a bonus feat, something all rogues are on short supply of.

Your familiar can be traded for Abrupt Jaunt, an ability useful to all, but even more so to rogues, who can use it to place themselves into a full-round sneak attacking position that may not have been possible otherwise. This alone would have me grab the wizard dip over the cleric, any day.

[Curmudgeon]

I disagree, and here is why.

As a rogue, you'll most likely have a decent intelligence already. Wisdom isn't always guaranteed. I know many of my rouges actually dump wisdom in an effort to keep Dex and Int high, while also trying to keep Str, Con, and Cha respectable.
And why should a Rogue character care? They're not going to be casting any appreciable number of spells with any 1-level caster dip in any case; the dip is primarily to gain wand use without a large investment in Use Magic Device. But WIS is needed for Will saves.

Wizard spell list is better. I'll give you that you can take the magic domain, but there isn't much that the cleric spell list could give my rogue that I wouldn't already have with my wizard spell list, and I'd rather be able to cast the few first level spells I have from a wizard list. Quickened grease? Yes please.
Again, the spells from a 1-level dip aren't generally useful enough for a Rogue to waste the actions. Quickened Grease is going to cost 35,000 gp for the required Metamagic Rod, to slick up a small area for 1 measly round duration. There are a whole lot of magic items the Rogue can get better use of for 35,000 gp.

You can easily get light armor with no spell failure chance, and with a high enough dexterity, you may want to forgo armor all together and simply use mage armor, or bracers.
So? You can get light armor as a Cleric, too. There's absolutely no upside here if you go with a Wizard dip.

Scribe Scroll can be traded for a Fighter bonus feat, something all rogues are on short supply of.
I fixed that for you. Fighter bonus feats don't meet most of the usual Rogue needs:

Craven
Darkstalker
Quick Reconnoiter
Telling Blow
Arterial Strike
Hamstring
Savvy Rogue
Blend into Shadows


Your familiar can be traded for Abrupt Jaunt, an ability useful to all, but even more so to rogues, who can use it to place themselves into a full-round sneak attacking position that may not have been possible otherwise. This alone would have me grab the wizard dip over the cleric, any day.
Gee, let's see:
Abrupt Jaunt (conjuration): You teleport up to 10 feet. ...
Activating this ability is an immediate action, and you can use this spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1). Compare to:

Benefit: Once per day as a swift action, you can activate this ability to move up to your speed as a swift action each round. ... This effect lasts for 1 minute. ...
If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each two daily turn or rebuke uses you expend. So that's typically 2, maybe 3 daily 10' teleports from Abrupt Jaunt, vs. 3x10 rounds of 30' or 40' movement from Travel Devotion (*free* when converted from Travel domain). I would think 3x10x40' of movement daily is better than 3x10' of movement; in fact, I would think it's 40 times better.

Every single one of your claims for Wizard superiority ends up (at best) equal to the Cleric option or (more typically) inferior. And you didn't even address all the other ways in which Cleric is better (hit points, class skills, skill points, saves, use of both Cleric and Wizard spells in wands).

[avr]

If you can get some warning before a fight, the infusions you can get from a single level of Artificer are amazingly useful even up to the mid levels, dunno about high levels though. If you've sold off trapfinding with the Changeling rogue ACF that gets it back too.

True, you don't get a class spell list for using items (you do get another +2 to UMD with scrolls), but the direct usefulness is pretty good IMO.

[Darth Stabber]

Do you want to know the really funny thing? At 9 wisdom you are actually unlikely to care that you can't prepare any cleric spells, so long as you have the magic domain. The level is not for the spell slots, its for eschewing umd. If you are not eschewing umd, there is no reason to take wizard or cloistered cleric, as you would never get enough use out of the actual spell slots to make the dip worth it. Cloistered cleric + knowledge domain > wizard. That is true every day of the week, and regardless of your wisdom. Seriously your wis could be three and you are still better off in cleric, actually being able to prepare spells is just gravy.

[candycorn]

Level of sorcerer is better, IMO, as you get two extra spells per day. The best first level spells are ray of enfeeblement (strength damage, no save) and true strike (+20 to hit, when you absolutely need a sneak attack).

Ray of enfeeblement - not so much. What's Caster level 1 or 5 going to do to a CR 12's SR 22 or higher?

For roguish-types, I'd frankly prefer Grease, with Practiced spellcaster. Sneak attacks vs anything not flying without 5 ranks in balance. Wiggle out of grapples. No spell resistance, and the save doesn't matter for either use.

[Curmudgeon]

For roguish-types, I'd frankly prefer Grease, with Practiced spellcaster.
But then you've blown one of the Rogue's precious feat slots. So what do you sacrifice? Craven, meaning your sneak attack will underperform? Darkstalker, so all the enemies with scent, blindsense, tremorsense, and so on will find you regardless of your Hide skill? There aren't any good options.

That Grease spell only covers a 10' square, so a Reflex save (against your very low DC) and a 5' step is all it takes for enemies to get out of it. By the time your first turn after casting comes around, there probably won't be anybody affected. :smallsigh:

[Thespianus]

But then you've blown one of the Rogue's precious feat slots. So what do you sacrifice? Craven, meaning your sneak attack will underperform? Darkstalker, so all the enemies with scent, blindsense, tremorsense, and so on will find you regardless of your Hide skill? There aren't any good options.

While I agree that Practied Spellcaster isn't worth it for a Rogue with just one level of "Caster X", the feat that's easiest to drop from your otherwise excellent list earlier must be Telling Blow? It's a great feat, but there will be a lot of enemies that are immune to Crits, and as a Rogue you really should be good at finding yourself in a flanking or invisible attack situation.

If the OP decides to go for more levels in a casting PrC, like Unseen Seer, the Practiced Spellcaster feat becomes a more viable option, IMHO.

[Curmudgeon]

While I agree that Practied Spellcaster isn't worth it for a Rogue with just one level of "Caster X", the feat that's easiest to drop from your otherwise excellent list earlier must be Telling Blow?
OK, so starting at level 9 you'll have CL 5 instead of CL 1 for a few level 0 and level 1 spells. Please, try to contain your enthusiasm. :smallwink:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

and since it only takes a semantic somatic move component, you can do it even in a Silence spell.

Shatter traps and locks away.

Actually, not really. Shatter is still a [Sonic] spell. Silence will still block the effect.

[Thespianus]

OK, so starting at level 9 you'll have CL 5 instead of CL 1 for a few level 0 and level 1 spells. Please, try to contain your enthusiasm. :smallwink:

At level 9, I'd be a Rogue 3/Wiz2/Unseen Seer 4, with CL 9 (or 10/8 for Divination/The Rest) with 3rd level spells and 7D6+9 in sneak attack damage, which actually *can* be something to be enthuisiastic about. ;)

As I wrote, *if* you decide to go for a casting PrC, *then* Practiced Spellcaster makes a bit of sense. ;)

[Ruinix]

... vs. Scribe Scroll and Summon Familiar, which are both pretty much worthless when you're never going to go higher than Wizard level 1.

boths swaped out with a tasty abrupt jaunt (int bonus/per day) via ACF and a feat from fighter list via martial wizard variant.

[Thespianus]

boths swaped out with a tasty abrupt jaunt (int bonus/per day) via ACF and a feat from fighter list via martial wizard variant.

He addressed that here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10752002&postcount=41

The conclusion is that the Cloistered Cleric dip is a lot better than a Wizard dip for a Rogue, even if the Wizard dip in itself isn't bad.

[Tyndmyr]

Didn't read all the replies, but the short answer is yes.

You lose exactly one level of rogue progression. This is mildly annoying, but not crippling.

In return, you gain a will save boost that's generally quite welcome, and an ACF(the familiar is generally not worthwhile to you for anything more than it's bonus, so swapping it out is generally a win). I suggest focused specialist conjurer, so you can get abrupt jaunt, and have more first level spells at your disposal. This ACF alone should be adequate compensation for slower class progression.

Even minor tricks like Expeditious Retreat come in handy too. It's a solid dip.

[Gaius Marius]

If you had the choice between Sorcerer and Wizard for a 1-level dip, which would it be?

[Ravens_cry]

If you had the choice between Sorcerer and Wizard for a 1-level dip, which would it be?
Depends, am I a social rogue or a skill rogue? Both are quite viable, but if I am the party face, something that gives synergy for my already above average charisma is better in my opinion.

[Thespianus]

If you had the choice between Sorcerer and Wizard for a 1-level dip, which would it be?

Since the casting pretty much is out the window with a 1 level dip, you have to look for the other benefits you get from the class:

Sorcerers don't get a lot of different ACFs, but maybe there's something to be found in Dragon Magic. As a Silverbrow Human, you may get some additional benefits from a one level Sorcerer dip and the dragonblood subtype. I'm beginning to think that the Battle Sorcerer variant is almost ok in this case, compared to the normal Sorcerer.

Wizards have a ton of ACFs, including the Abrupt Jaunt ACF and Martial Wizard from UA. These two alone make Wizard > Sorcerer in this case, IMHO.

[Cog]

I'm beginning to think that the Battle Sorcerer variant is almost ok in this case, compared to the normal Sorcerer.
The only advantage Battle really has over Stalwart is the BAB, and even with fractional that .25 difference isn't going to matter often. Stalwart's HP boost works out to a d8 equivalent if it's not your first level, and you get weapon focus; not much, but maybe it'll be a prereq for something you like later.

Of course, if your Cha is already poor, there's no reason not to take both.

[Jack Zander]

And why should a Rogue character care? They're not going to be casting any appreciable number of spells with any 1-level caster dip in any case; the dip is primarily to gain wand use without a large investment in Use Magic Device. But WIS is needed for Will saves.

It's only a minor bonus, but its still a bonus. And I never put points into wisdom solely for will saves. I usually need another reason in addition to that. To each his own though.


Again, the spells from a 1-level dip aren't generally useful enough for a Rogue to waste the actions. Quickened Grease is going to cost 35,000 gp for the required Metamagic Rod, to slick up a small area for 1 measly round duration. There are a whole lot of magic items the Rogue can get better use of for 35,000 gp.

It's not just quickened grease though. It's also quickened true strike, and quickened , etc.


So? You can get light armor as a Cleric, too. There's absolutely no upside here if you go with a Wizard dip.

I wasn't saying that wizard had it better. I was just saying the casting in armor advantage a cleric had wasn't really an advantage over wizard.


I fixed that for you. Fighter bonus feats don't meet most of the usual Rogue needs:

[I]Craven
Darkstalker
Quick Reconnoiter
Telling Blow
Arterial Strike
Hamstring
Savvy Rogue
Blend into Shadows


Irrelevant. Most rogues still need the two weapon fighting tree AND weapon finesse OR the archery tree. Every little feat bonus helps, as long as its not a metamagic or item creation feat.


Gee, let's see: Compare to:
So that's typically 2, maybe 3 daily 10' teleports from Abrupt Jaunt, vs. 3x10 rounds of 30' or 40' movement from Travel Devotion (*free* when converted from Travel domain). I would think 3x10x40' of movement daily is better than 3x10' of movement; in fact, I would think it's 40 times better.

I'll admit I never heard of this travel devotion thingy so I can't really comment on it. I imagine it as its pros and cons, but I really don't know.


Every single one of your claims for Wizard superiority ends up (at best) equal to the Cleric option or (more typically) inferior. And you didn't even address all the other ways in which Cleric is better (hit points, class skills, skill points, saves, use of both Cleric and Wizard spells in wands).

So the fighter bonus feat is inferior to what? No bonus feat? How so?
Also, the cleric gets a total of +2 fortitude save, +2 hp, +2 skill points, and a skill list you won't likely use anyway. Over twenty levels I would hardly even consider these as reason to take a class.

I'm not saying cleric dip isn't good. But its only good if you can take cloistered cleric and travel and magic domains, and that travel devotion thing. If that is the case I'd honestly say they are both about equal. Neither one is going to put your build into a higher tier over the other.

[Thespianus]

The only advantage Battle really has over Stalwart is the BAB, and even with fractional that .25 difference isn't going to matter often. Stalwart's HP boost works out to a d8 equivalent if it's not your first level, and you get weapon focus; not much, but maybe it'll be a prereq for something you like later.

Of course, if your Cha is already poor, there's no reason not to take both.
Ofcourse, I forgot about the Stalwart Sorcerer and that you could combine the two. It seems crazy, but it gives you D8+2 hitpoints, weapon proficiency for one melee weapon and Weapon Focus.

No level 1 spells known, though. But Acid Splash is all a Sneak Attacker needs anyway. ;)

[Thespianus]

So the fighter bonus feat is inferior to what? No bonus feat? How so?
Also, the cleric gets a total of +2 fortitude save, +2 hp, +2 skill points, and a skill list you won't likely use anyway. Over twenty levels I would hardly even consider these as reason to take a class.

I'm not saying cleric dip isn't good. But its only good if you can take cloistered cleric and travel and magic domains, and that travel devotion thing. If that is the case I'd honestly say they are both about equal. Neither one is going to put your build into a higher tier over the other.

The Cloistered Cleric gives you, apart from Bardic Knowledge: Travel Domain (which you can translate into Travel Devotion, which is *awesome*), Magic Domain and Knowledge Domain, which you can translate into the Knowledge Devotion feat, which is *awesome*)

Travel Devotion gives you an extra Move action, so you can move and full attack in the same round, an amazing ability.

Knowledge Devotion gives you bonuses on attack and damage depending on a Knowledge(X) skill check. It's ridiculously good, granting you up to +5 on attack rolls. If you're a Rogue, you have tons of skill points to sink into Knowledge-skills.

I really recommend you to read up on both Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion. You will then realize why the Clositered Cleric is immensly superior to the Wizard for a one level dip.

The Wizard can give you Weapon Finesse (which you really want) and Abrupt Jaunt. I think, however, that the C-C abilities listed above clearly trumps those two.

[Jack Zander]

The Cloistered Cleric gives you, apart from Bardic Knowledge: Travel Domain (which you can translate into Travel Devotion, which is *awesome*), Magic Domain and Knowledge Domain, which you can translate into the Knowledge Devotion feat, which is *awesome*)

Oh so those are feats? So we're adding even more feats into a feat starved character? I'm not saying that those aren't worth it, they definitely are, but wizard will give you more for less of an investment. If you've got the feats to spare somehow then I agree, cleric is better.

However, all of this is is really irrelevant to the OP's question. 1 level of wizard dip in a rogue build is probably one of the better dips you can take, even if there are more optimized options. Saying you shouldn't take that wizard dip is like saying you shouldn't ever play a cleric, because druid does it better.

[Cog]

Oh so those are feats? So we're adding even more feats into a feat starved character? I'm not saying that those aren't worth it, they definitely are, but wizard will give you more for less of an investment. If you've got the feats to spare somehow then I agree, cleric is better.
No, you trade away the domains to get the devotions. They're free feats on a feat-starved character.

[Jack Zander]

No, you trade away the domains to get the devotions. They're free feats on a feat-starved character.

What? Who thought that was a good idea?

[Cog]

Most domains give you a feat or feat-equivalent ability and access to a broad range of spells otherwise not on your list. Each domain can only be traded for the matching devotion, and most devotions are only 1/day unless you start blowing through anywhere from one to three TU uses per pop.

[Thespianus]

What? Who thought that was a good idea?
It's in Complete Champion: You trade access to a Domain for a Domain-related Devotion Feat.

Some are *really* good, some are Meh.

[Forged Fury]

Knowledge Devotion gives you bonuses on attack and damage depending on a Knowledge(X) skill check. It's ridiculously good, granting you up to +5 on attack rolls. If you're a Rogue, you have tons of skill points to sink into Knowledge-skills.
The problem is that you are essentially putting Knowledge Devotion on a chassis that only has Knowledge (Local), depending on whether you interpret Cloistered Cleric as receiving the normal cleric Knowledge skills as a base or not. The SRD, at least, is mute on the issue. By the way the SRD is written, a Cloistered Cleric would lose ALL knowledge skills if they traded out Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion.

[Cog]

By the way the SRD is written, a Cloistered Cleric would lose ALL knowledge skills if they traded out Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion.
That list merely gives the additions to the basic Cleric list. Do you think Cloistered Clerics don't have spellcraft, diplomacy, heal, or concentration either?

[erikun]

Assuming you just have the PHB, it's not worth much. All spells with a duration will only last 1 round, meaning potentially useful spells like Grease will be over before you can take advantage of them. Anything that forces a saving throw will be saved against, due to the low 11+stat DC, and due the same damage as a crossbow bolt. Arcane Spell Failure is also a problem. There are some spells that are still usable - True Strike and Feather Fall were mentioned, both for use at high level and being castable in armor - but a lot of the 1st-level Wizard's spell list won't be practical for a mid-to-high level Rogue.

That said, you don't really lose much from a single level of multiclass. Being able to use cheap scrolls and wands without Use Magic Device checks can be handy at low levels, although I'd think a level of Cleric + Wand of Cure Light Wounds would be more practical. And, of course, there are ways to make the Wizarding more useful - prestige classing being one of them. There are also other classes you can take besides Wizard (Bard being the most noteworthy) and prestige classes that can grant some spellcasting (Assassin comes to mind).

[Curmudgeon]

The problem is that you are essentially putting Knowledge Devotion on a chassis that only has Knowledge (Local), depending on whether you interpret Cloistered Cleric as receiving the normal cleric Knowledge skills as a base or not.
The Cloistered Cleric is a variant of the Cleric class; the variant's description describes additional or different characteristics of the base Cleric.

Anyway, the Knowledge domain only makes all Knowledges class skills for your 1-level Cloistered Cleric dip. Since you're going to convert Knowledge to Knowledge Devotion, the answer is the Education feat (Eberron Campaign Setting), which makes all Knowledges class skills for all your classes. This is how I generally build my fighting-focused Rogues. At Rogue 10 select Skill Mastery as your Rogue special ability, and master all 6 Knowledges related to creature types. Then pick up Savvy Rogue as the level 12 feat, so you can "take 12" on all those Knowledge checks and never have to worry about rolling numbers in the 1-11 range. Somewhere in the mid-teens you can guarantee the maximum of +5 to attack and damage vs. everything.

The great thing about Knowledge Devotion and Craven is that those bonuses don't come from dice, so they get multiplied on critical hits. The Rogue's best melee weapon is the keen rapier anyway; getting to add an extra (1d6 + 5 + character level + numerical weapon enhancement + STR bonus) on each critical just makes it that much better. (And of course Knowledge Devotion's +5 bonus also gets included when you're rolling to confirm those crits.)

[Thespianus]

The problem is that you are essentially putting Knowledge Devotion on a chassis that only has Knowledge (Local), depending on whether you interpret Cloistered Cleric as receiving the normal cleric Knowledge skills as a base or not. The SRD, at least, is mute on the issue. By the way the SRD is written, a Cloistered Cleric would lose ALL knowledge skills if they traded out Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion.

I fail to see how that would be true. The base Cleric still gets Knowledge(religion) and Knowledge(the planes) (and Knowledge(history), but I don't think there are any attack and damage bonuses to be had from that).

As others have mentioned, there are other ways too to gain further Knowledge-skills.

[Thespianus]

At Rogue 10 select Skill Mastery as your Rogue special ability, and master all 6 Knowledges related to creature types. Then pick up Savvy Rogue as the level 12 feat, so you can "take 12" on all those Knowledge checks and never have to worry about rolling numbers in the 1-11 range.

BTW, what's your take on the Collector of Stories skill trick, in combination with Knowledge Devotion? The skill trick gives a +5 competence bonus to Knowledge-checks to "identify a creature or to learn its special powers or vulnerabilities". To me it would seem reasonable to allow this to apply to the Knowledge-checks for Knowledge Devotion too, but since the sources are so different, there's naturally no explicit RAW support for that.

Have you any thoughts on the matter?

[Coidzor]

Alternatively, keep knowledge domain and take some domain like oracle or inquisition and trade it for knowledge devotion.

Though that does preclude taking that 3rd domain in order to get a feat, possibly of weapon proficiency, or a power... If the first domain is devoted to Magic in order to make it so all cleric and wizard wands are usable w/out UMD.

[Thespianus]

Alternatively, keep knowledge domain and take some domain like oracle or inquisition and trade it for knowledge devotion.

Or, just keep the Knowledge domain and the Magic domain, trade Travel Domain for the Travel Devotion feat, and grab Knowledge Devotion as a Feat on, say, level 3.

I'm guessing, since Curmudgeon's advise on taking the Feat "Education" also requires buying one extra feat, you might as well stay with the Knowledge domain as is, and grab Knowledge Devotion as a normal Feat, instead of Education.

That's extra fine, since this is a solution that doesn't depend on the compaign setting .

[Curmudgeon]

I'm guessing, since Curmudgeon's advise on taking the Feat "Education" also requires buying one extra feat, you might as well stay with the Knowledge domain as is, and grab Knowledge Devotion as a normal Feat, instead of Education.
That only works if you keep taking Cleric levels. As a Rogue, you'd still pay the cross-class rate for boosting 5 of those 6 skills. That's too much even for a skillful class.

That's extra fine, since this is a solution that doesn't depend on the compaign setting .
Education is a general feat, and has nothing to do with Eberron except being revised for 3.5 in that book. (It was previously in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, a 3.0 book.)

[Coidzor]

I believe Education appeared in Ghostwalk as well.

[Thespianus]

That only works if you keep taking Cleric levels. As a Rogue, you'd still pay the cross-class rate for boosting 5 of those 6 skills. That's too much even for a skillful class.
Ah, yes, I've been playing with a lenient DM for too long, we get Able Learner for free. My bad.


Education is a general feat, and has nothing to do with Eberron except being revised for 3.5 in that book.
Ok, thanks.

[Particle_Man]

In Pathfinder, the Rogue can take some low level spells as spell-like abilities, which is an interesting variant. You would still need UMD for wands and the like, though.

[Ravens_cry]

In Pathfinder, the Rogue can take some low level spells as spell-like abilities, which is an interesting variant. You would still need UMD for wands and the like, though.Yeah , spending two rogue talents, a minor and a major, to get a once a day use for each level? I'll take the wizard level, thanks, especially considering that 0 level spells are now infinite use.

[suszterpatt]

Wow, this thread certainly took off. :)


I took a quick look at the prestige classes mentioned, but most of them seem too caster-heavy for my taste. I'd essentially like to stay a TWF combat/trap rogue, but exchanging the dud that is rogue level 20 for some extra tricks.

To give you some more info, the way I envisioned the char would be (and again, I could be way off here, remember, no real PnP experience):


Drow male (true neutral, definitely NOT another Drizzt knockoff, with an actual backstory)

high DEX and INT
decent CON
average-ish STR and CHA
pretty much dump WIS

Skills would be focused around trapping and sneaking, not so much on social stuff.

Based on this, I'm quite torn between Wizard with fighter feat + abrupt jaunt, and Cloistered Cleric with Knowledge and Travel Devotion + Magic Domain.

Wizard fits my stats better, and is a favored class. I can definitely use the feat for Finesse or some TWF, and I think I prefer teleporting over a shorter distance vs swift movement over a larger distance. Also, free spells per day! \o/

On the other hand, Cleric gives me wizard AND cleric wand/scroll usage, which I could use with my lowish UMD. At the same time, I wouldn't be able to use the Devotion abilities a lot of times / day, so they might not measure up to a fighter feat in value. Also, some XP penalty for not being a favored class (that one could be fixed by switching to female, but I'd very much prefer not to do that).


I just wish Assassin didn't have that pesky alignment requirement. :P

[Forged Fury]

I fail to see how that would be true.
It's mainly in the way Cloistered Cleric is written. For some odd reason, it doesn't use the standard "Add Skill X, Skill Y, and Skill Z to the Cleric's skill list" that every other variant class uses. Instead it simply says, "The cloistered cleric's class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below)." With that said, I think the Skills description in the Cariant Character Classes section probably answers it: "Additions or subtractions from the class skill list, and/or changes in the number of skill points gained per level."

Why it isn't written like the other classes, I don't know.
For example, the Thug Fighter:
Add the following skills to the fighter's class skill list: Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand.

[Particle_Man]

Yeah , spending two rogue talents, a minor and a major, to get a once a day use for each level? I'll take the wizard level, thanks, especially considering that 0 level spells are now infinite use.

Actually, more times a day than that.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue

"Major Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 11 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. The rogue must have an Intelligence of at least 11 to select this talent. A rogue must have the minor magic rogue talent before choosing this talent.

Minor Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. The rogue must have an Intelligence of at least 10 to select this talent."

[Skaven]

Even better, make it a divination specialist for an extra spell per day and bar evocation, which is pretty much useless for a level dip while getting an extra useful divination spell per day.

[Jack Zander]

Even better, make it a divination specialist for an extra spell per day and bar evocation, which is pretty much useless for a level dip while getting an extra useful divination spell per day.

That actually makes the build worse because now you can't abrupt jaunt.

Also, this is one of those rare instances where banning evocation is actually a bad idea. You lose out on shatter and all the roguish stuff that spell will grant you. (Unless of course you can still use wands from your banned schools. If that's the case then ignore that statement and you can ban whatever schools you feel like, it won't really matter.)

[Thespianus]

It's mainly in the way Cloistered Cleric is written. For some odd reason, it doesn't use the standard "Add Skill X, Skill Y, and Skill Z to the Cleric's skill list" that every other variant class uses. Instead it simply says, "The cloistered cleric's class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below)." With that said, I think the Skills description in the Cariant Character Classes section probably answers it: "Additions or subtractions from the class skill list, and/or changes in the number of skill points gained per level."

Why it isn't written like the other classes, I don't know.
For example, the Thug Fighter:
Add the following skills to the fighter's class skill list: Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand.
While I agree that it would have been better to use the "Add the following skills..."-phrasing for the C-C, the argument that the C-C loses all Knowledge skills if Knowledge Domain is traded for Knowledge Devotion seems wrong. If you remove the benefits you get from the Knowledge Domain when taking Knowledge Devotion, you still have the skills on the original Cleric list, and, you also get Decipher Script and Speak Language.

There is absolutely no text that mentions removing any skills from the Cleric skill list, the only thing you lose when trading Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion is the benefit gained by the Knowledge Domain. It doesn't remove anything from the original Cleric skill list.

But maybe this is just a matter of interpretation. I find no text to support removing skills from the Cleric skill list, that's all. :)

[Jack Zander]

There is absolutely no text that mentions removing any skills from the Cleric skill list, the only thing you lose when trading Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion is the benefit gained by the Knowledge Domain. It doesn't remove anything from the original Cleric skill list.

A CC as written doesn't gain or lose skills to the cleric's skill list, it has its own skill list instead.

However, I'm almost positive this is just an oversight on the wording, because I do not think they would remove skills such as concentration, profession, and spellcraft from the CC.

[Cog]

The introduction states the class skill entries to be additions and removals, so that's the basic assumption. When it's a replacement instead, it says so specifically; you can see this in the Paladin variants, for example. But, yeah, it is lousy wording either way,

[Curmudgeon]

A CC as written doesn't gain or lose skills to the cleric's skill list, it has its own skill list instead.

However, I'm almost positive this is just an oversight on the wording
Perhaps it's an oversight in the reading rather than the writing.
Class Skills

The cleric’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Class Skills

The cloistered cleric's class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below). "Are" denotes a full list. "Includes" denotes additions. From Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/include)'s entry for include:
to add as part of something else; put in as part of a set, group, or category

[Jack Zander]

English language shenanigans

Okay, that makes sense. Your logic is sound.

[Cog]

I think that might be redundant. I'm pretty sure the only consistent rule in the English language is that it must involve shenanigans.

[Coidzor]

I think that might be redundant. I'm pretty sure the only consistent rule in the English language is that it must involve shenanigans.

And occasionally shendigs. :smallbiggrin:

[Thespianus]

Or "shindigs"?

As long as there's a flame war about spelling and grammar, you know you're playing DnD the right way. ;)

[Curmudgeon]

As long as there's a flame war about spelling and grammar, you know you're playing DnD the right way. ;)
... by which you mean D 'n' D (or D&D), right?

[Thespianus]

... by which you mean D 'n' D (or D&D), right?
I set them up, you keep smashing away. ;)

Yes, I meant D'n'D.

[Forged Fury]

Okay, that makes sense. Your logic is sound.
It makes sense, although the whole thing could be avoided if they just followed the standard covention:

Class Skills
Add the following skills to the cleric's class skill list: Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below).

That would have been a lot easier, in my opinion. Again, not a fan of the reading, but I've seen it argued before on the internets.

[Curmudgeon]

It makes sense, although the whole thing could be avoided if they just followed the standard covention:
The basic problem is with the mindset of the authors. They're being paid for their contributions, which they largely regard as a creative effort. But if they follow some other author's writing conventions, their demonstration of creativity is stifled. The result is that we get innumerable examples of somebody phrasing things a bit differently in the many D&D supplements. Sometimes this just alleviates some monotony ─ and sometimes it creates confusion. (But hey, it's still creative!)

[MeeposFire]

They could have just said "add Decipher Script and Speak Language to the clerics class skills". Since this cleric automatically gets the knowledge domain it is no more confusing or intuitive as a standard cleric and would prevent some kinds of misreading the information.