How Evil is Too Evil?

[Tokuhara]

I have a party member who's character just died, and he's sick of playing his usual Good PC, so now he wants to be sociopathically evil, to the point, as he put it, "To make Caligula blush with envy." He is going to use Vashar, but he and I combined cannot find an Evil enough build that follows his goal to be a million times worse than the most evil people of all time combined. Any ideas?

[Curious]

Are you asking us to give evil ideas? Or are you asking where 'being evil' crosses the line in real life? The title confuses me a little.

[Sacrieur]

There's I plan to erase all of existence ever kind of evil.

[Hirax]

Uh. I think that level of evil would come through RPing more than the build. And to give you RPing ideas to get you to a level of evil that you're describing...most of the ideas that came to my head are probably unfit to be posted on the forum, since NSFW stuff isn't allowed. Take an evil act and keep finding ways to make it more perverse.

[Tokuhara]

I appologize for the poor title.

What he wants is a build that reflects his plan for RPing. He also wants the means to commit these evil acts

[Sacrieur]

I appologize for the poor title.

What he wants is a build that reflects his plan for RPing. He also wants the means to commit these evil acts

Wizard, you can do everything with wizard. That or Ur-priest or even blight druid.

[Curious]

Well, first make sure that nobody at your gaming table is going to get offended at increasingly evil acts, that's the most important part. Second, you should choose what level of evil you want, based on alignment. City level, country level, world level, or multiverse level. Basically that just describes the ultimate goal he has in mind, whether it be conquest, or destruction. Other than that, just be creative in your perversity, and good role-playing should take him the rest of the way.

[Hirax]

Wizard, you can do everything with wizard. That or Ur-priest or even blight druid.

Pretty much. Or if that's too bland for you, we'll need some more direction. In addition to what Curious asked, do you have a preference towards a Gish? Raging hulk? Or is it totally open ended? Level? How much homebrew/rule bending is acceptable? IE, alignment restrictions on classes, prc entry requirements, house rules, level adjustment and RHD allowed, etc.

[Forum Explorer]

Cancer mage. Because nothing is more evil fun then creating a new disease and infecting civilians with it till you become a new demon god of disease and dispair.

[fryplink]

Artificer. Makes liquid pain extractors and items that drain the souls of his victims to power his artifice. Makes for a creepy character, beyond evil. Keeps people in his portable hole plugged into pain extractors then traps their soul after they've been tapped dry of pain. Then use the pain as power and souls as power rules to make items to enslave and drain more people. Could use the souls he captures in Faustian pacts with devils as to retain his own soul (not that he uses it anyway). has no specific goal other than to exist, and enjoy life and increase in power, using these methods.

This character is both beyond evil, but also not directly harmful to the party, as, since he is mostly trying to enjoy himself as much as possible and harming friends is contrary to that goal, he doesn't fall into Chaotic stupid pitfalls while being chillingly evil. I actually had this character banned from an evil game because the DM found that it just was too unsavory (burning orphans in poverty stricken villages is one thing, but turning them against each other so that they kill each other then trapping the souls of everyone in the village just made her regret DMing the campaign). I had spent over 1 million gold in black saphires (well, DM houseruled that I could just have one really pure black saphire). kept "spells" stored in verbal trigger (not spell completion, free action verbal trigger) in non-slotted items. Most were of the uses per day quality. with a word the character would kill entire towns and then trap everyones souls. Then sell all the stuff in the town to fund growth.

We played fast and loose with the rules, because it was an RP heavy game and we were well on our way to deicide (all the gods, not just good ones, we might be evil, but we aren't religious fanatics, we are equal opportunity god slayers)

[Tokuhara]

Artificer. Makes liquid pain extractors and items that drain the souls of his victims to power his artifice. Makes for a creepy character, beyond evil. Keeps people in his portable hole plugged into pain extractors then traps their soul after they've been tapped dry of pain. Then use the pain as power and souls as power rules to make items to enslave and drain more people. Could use the souls he captures in Faustian pacts with devils as to retain his own soul (not that he uses it anyway). has no specific goal other than to exist, and enjoy life and increase in power, using these methods.

This character is both beyond evil, but also not directly harmful to the party, as, since he is mostly trying to enjoy himself as much as possible and harming friends is contrary to that goal, he doesn't fall into Chaotic stupid pitfalls while being chillingly evil. I actually had this character banned from an evil game because the DM found that it just was too unsavory (burning orphans in poverty stricken villages is one thing, but turning them against each other so that they kill each other then trapping the souls of everyone in the village just made her regret DMing the campaign). I had spent over 1 million gold in black saphires (well, DM houseruled that I could just have one really pure black saphire). kept "spells" stored in verbal trigger (not spell completion, free action verbal trigger) in non-slotted items. Most were of the uses per day quality. with a word the character would kill entire towns and then trap everyones souls. Then sell all the stuff in the town to fund growth.

We played fast and loose with the rules, because it was an RP heavy game and we were well on our way to deicide (all the gods, not just good ones, we might be evil, but we aren't religious fanatics, we are equal opportunity god slayers)

Fryplink, you are a sadistic bastard... He'll love it...

Now, is this Artificer 20 or is it PrC'd at all?

And how exactly does this work. Our party has never had an artificer, so we wouldnt have a clue

[Tokuhara]

Pretty much. Or if that's too bland for you, we'll need some more direction. In addition to what Curious asked, do you have a preference towards a Gish? Raging hulk? Or is it totally open ended? Level? How much homebrew/rule bending is acceptable? IE, alignment restrictions on classes, prc entry requirements, house rules, level adjustment and RHD allowed, etc.

Okay. Currently, we are level 5, all books (including non-WotC sources that use d&d 3.5, such as Green Ronin or Mongoose Publishing products) are allowed, along with Dragon Magazine stuff (note: If you do post Dragon Magazine material, plz spoiler a copy for me on this, since I'll be C&P'ing it to a word document and printing it up l8r). He was recently running a Paladin tank-y guy, who died because a sumnmoning spell went HORRIBLY wrong (let's say somebody summoned a devil, who took him as "payment" against the party's will). He told me he doesn't really care, though our party IS short an "aggro-puller"

[fryplink]

Fryplink, you are a sadistic bastard... He'll love it...

Now, is this Artificer 20 or is it PrC'd at all?

And how exactly does this work. Our party has never had an artificer, so we wouldnt have a clue

Heck, its Artificer 15ish, nothing else, the class is in the Main Eberron book, and has "experience points" and "gold" for free with each level up (for item making uses only). Granted, I was given significant freedom with this character so ymmv. The X as power rules are in the BoVD. Im quite sure I wasn't playing anywhere close to RAW. The idea though could be a Wizard or Warlock just as easily.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Hmmmm.

Howabout an unarmed Warblade dipping into Soul Eater (BoVD) with the Dread Crown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76218) discipline? That's fairly decent, is eeeeeeeevil, and satisfies your party's need for a tank.

Though really, evil is more pure RPing then crunch. There's not a class that says, "welp you're killing orphans for fun now" (okay, maybe Paladin of Slaughter). And good evil, the sort that's memorable and makes for a good game, is almost entirely roleplaying. I mean, you can take a class that says you eat souls, but without being willing to play that out, you're just an alignment, not a character.

[Tokuhara]

Hmmmm.

Howabout an unarmed Warblade dipping into Soul Eater (BoVD) with the Dread Crown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76218) discipline? That's fairly decent, is eeeeeeeevil, and satisfies your party's need for a tank.

Though really, evil is more pure RPing then crunch. There's not a class that says, "welp you're killing orphans for fun now" (okay, maybe Paladin of Slaughter). And good evil, the sort that's memorable and makes for a good game, is almost entirely roleplaying. I mean, you can take a class that says you eat souls, but without being willing to play that out, you're just an alignment, not a character.

Well, he has his heart set of Vashar, so Soul Eater is out, mostly because of the type problem.

And trust me, our party role plays instead of talking

[Mr.Bookworm]

Well, he has his heart set of Vashar, so Soul Eater is out, mostly because of the type problem.

And trust me, our party role plays instead of talking

Excuse me while I apply my palm to my face. I completely forgot about the type requirement of Soul Eater.

I'd still recommend Warblade, though, if you need a tank. TDO is an excellent homebrewer, and Dread Crown is neat all around. And if you want more EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL in your tankly-goodness, Warrior of Darkness is a pretty neat PrC that everyone seems to forget about.

[Tokuhara]

Excuse me while I apply my palm to my face. I completely forgot about the type requirement of Soul Eater.

I'd still recommend Warblade, though, if you need a tank. TDO is an excellent homebrewer, and Dread Crown is neat all around. And if you want more EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL in your tankly-goodness, Warrior of Darkness is a pretty neat PrC that everyone seems to forget about.

What about a rebuild of Unholy Warrior (essentially Blackguard as a 20 level class) so instead of Paly spells, its maneuvers

[fryplink]

Maybe adapting the artificer character to a wizard instead, who uses souls as power using the trap the soul/soul bind line (or really, anything that isolates a soul) and keeping them in a bag of holding like a big battery to cast limited and regular wishes from. Essentially a fullmetal alchemist-esque "I use human souls to rewrite reality according to my whim". A locate city bomb or similar along with a method of applying {insert soul capturing method here} a lot of times really quickly could create a tremendous bank of power to cast wishes from without being an endless supply.

Or a warlock fluffed to eat souls (I don't know if warlocks have a method of soul isolation, perhaps in the form of controlling intelligent undead?) and then occasionally gets a psudo-free magic item via his imbue item abilities, it's imperfect but doesn't feels much more violently evil than the other for some reason. What flavor of evil is he looking for?

Or if you need something tank-y, try glaivelock which can sorta be combine with soul consumption to make it really evil (and boost its power a little bit in the form of creating the occasional scroll for the party) glaivelock isn't a tank straight, but it plays a little like one, and could fill the role if built right and not pushed too hard, especially if he is well supported with magic items.

[Tokuhara]

Maybe adapting the artificer character to a wizard instead, who uses souls as power using the trap the soul/soul bind line (or really, anything that isolates a soul) and keeping them in a bag of holding like a big battery to cast limited and regular wishes from. Essentially a fullmetal alchemist-esque "I use human souls to rewrite reality according to my whim". A locate city bomb or similar along with a method of applying {insert soul capturing method here} a lot of times really quickly could create a tremendous bank of power to cast wishes from without being an endless supply.

Or a warlock fluffed to eat souls (I don't know if warlocks have a method of soul isolation, perhaps in the form of controlling intelligent undead?) and then occasionally gets a psudo-free magic item via his imbue item abilities, it's imperfect but doesn't feels much more violently evil than the other for some reason. What flavor of evil is he looking for?

He said "sophistocated sociopath who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty and wear armor. Someone truly diabolical, who can do whatever he wants and not have to worry about autorities"

[Telonius]

Yeah, a lot of this is going to depend on what sort of eeeevil the guy is looking for. There's so many flavors... which one do you have in mind?

There's the straight up murder/carnage/Reaver type. Frenzied Berserker is a pretty good chassis for something like that. A more cerebral, psychological, Hannibal Lecter-esque evil would probably be built something like the "Joker Bard" concept. Destroy the multiverse? Wizard sounds obvious. Bring down the gods and snuff out all good in that way? Ur-Priest. Genocidal destruction could be any class or race, though Fallen Paladin/Blackguard is a stereotypical start for it. Political power-mongering is great for a Rogue or Beguiler. Dread Emperor or Sewer King-like taboo-busting could be had with a Cleric, Bard, or Wizard who spams enough Dominate spells. Destroying the multiverse through summoning That Which Should Not Be Known is an obvious job for a Tainted Scholar.

[Mr.Bookworm]

What about a rebuild of Unholy Warrior (essentially Blackguard as a 20 level class) so instead of Paly spells, its maneuvers

It's a good idea. I'd just give it Warblade maneuver progression and call it a day. Thematically, the best schools that fit with that are Dread Crown and Devoted Spirit. Give it Stone Dragon, too, because all martial adept classes get it. Maybe Shadow Hand, too, if the Unholy Warrior has the Blackguard's Sneak Attack. Paladin isn't exactly a powerhouse, so no real need to worry about breaking the game.

[Lhurgyof]

I appologize for the poor title.

What he wants is a build that reflects his plan for RPing. He also wants the means to commit these evil acts

You, my friend, need to read the Book of Vile Darkness.

Give him some torture equipment, poisons, drugs, execution equipment, evil spells, evil feats, etc.

Take a lot of vile spells and the most evil spells you can find.

So wizard sounds the way to go.

[fryplink]

He said "sophistocated sociopath who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty and wear armor. Someone truly diabolical, who can do whatever he wants and not have to worry about autorities"

I changed my above post to include glaivelock, but that still doesn't hit the nail. Armored classes don't fit the bill as well. Perhaps a little bit of ur-priest paired with a figher, warblade or some other similar class to meet requirements. It's evil in that it steals power from the gods when they aren't looking. It can probably tank similar to the cleric, though if you tank with it, defiantly look at meeting the reqs with warblade and take abilities that enhance survivability.

[Tokuhara]

It's a good idea. I'd just give it Warblade maneuver progression and call it a day. Thematically, the best schools that fit with that are Dread Crown and Devoted Spirit. Give it Stone Dragon, too, because all martial adept classes get it. Maybe Shadow Hand, too, if the Unholy Warrior has the Blackguard's Sneak Attack. Paladin isn't exactly a powerhouse, so no real need to worry about breaking the game.

It gets domains, contaigin, spellcasting, stuff like that. Take paladin and cleric and blend them

[Flickerdart]

Artifice? Fah. Psionics (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925a) is what you want. This is a PrC based around capturing people in cocoons and feeding off their bodies. The class can also usurp the body of one of its victims, cheating death - and any villain needs a way to make the good guys think they've won. Another advantage is that it doesn't screw over WBL or force you to use the awful BoVD.

[fryplink]

Artifice? Fah. Psionics (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925a) is what you want. This is a PrC based around capturing people in cocoons and feeding off their bodies. The class can also usurp the body of one of its victims, cheating death - and any villain needs a way to make the good guys think they've won. Another advantage is that it doesn't screw over WBL or force you to use the awful BoVD.

Wow, its pretty much the same in what happened (I kill people and use them as power), except you aren't using a T1 class, you're right, it is even more beautiful than my artificer (It doesn't feel quite as evil, but there is something more... elegant... about it, it isn't exploiting the rules as much and it is also cleaner, I've never been a huge fan of psionics, but rp wise, its the same concept, only mechanically more sound). The body hopping upon death also sounds great

Not liking psionics (If I must use a point-based magic system I usually use spell point varient and promise my DM I won't break the game) I don't know how mind switch works, but it makes me think of a character who, whenever he comes across someone more powerful than himself, lures them into a cocoon (or trap then cocoons them, I only just skimmed the class) and then intentionally kills himself after preparing his new body.

[*.*.*.*]

Necrocarnate? YOU DESTROY SOULS TO RECHARGE YOUR CLASS ABILITIES!

[Sinon]

Vermin Lord from BoVD.

Let him use his swarms to create hiveminds, and he'll be the second most evil being ever.

[Crossblade]

Be a Monk.
Unarmed damage can be lethal with monks.
Use unarmed damage to kick things.
Start small. Mail boxes, trash cans, wagon wheels, etc.
Work your way up. Full grown men able to defend themselves.
Escalate to the biggest evil of kicking. Puppies, children, little old ladies and daffodils.

[Zaq]

What? No Necrocarnum? (Edit: I see the good Mr. Stars-and-Dots beat me to it, but oh well.)

Necrocarnum is . . . well, let's put it this way. Incarnum usually doesn't hurt the souls it uses. Necrocarnum is a flavor of Incarnum that, well, does. Innocent ones. I forget offhand if it destroys the souls outright or merely tortures them, but either way? Yeah. Bad stuff. If this sounds like fun, you can just dabble with feats, you can go Incarnate and use all the melds, or you can use the Necrocarnate PrC and literally suck the souls out of things you kill for your own personal profit. (Warning: Necrocarnates must walk a fine line between "huh, I'm actually weaker than I was before PrCing" and "INFINITE ESSENTIA MWAHAHAHA.")

[Zonugal]

What he wants is a build that reflects his plan for RPing. He also wants the means to commit these evil acts

I'd say something like an Ardent can be a really fun experience. It offers the player a fun contrast between the heavy armored paladin builds he may be more experience with and instead grants a being who can climb around someone's mind.

And once they reach level eight they can start forcing people to commit suicide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/deathUrge.htm).

Now that is a nice type of evil.

[Xuc Xac]

So is the rest of the party just going to sit idly by and watch him do all this evil stuff? If they're good like his previous characters, they won't just say "Welcome to the team!" If they're neutral, they'll still oppose him out of self-interest because he's just that nasty. Even if they're evil, if he's trying to be the ultimate in wickedness, they'll still oppose him because he's ruining the world where they keep all their stuff. Just look at what happens when you put a child molester in prison with a bunch of hardened amoral killers.

[Aharon]

Thrallherd?
Few things beat sending waves of fanatical followers that just come to you because you are awesome to their death - both to amuse you and to achieve goals.

[paddyfool]

So, the requirements are these:


He said "sophistocated sociopath who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty and wear armor. Someone truly diabolical, who can do whatever he wants and not have to worry about autorities"


Vashar

OK, debased human, charismatic, wears armour, Evil with a capital E. How about a Favoured Soul gifted with power by some evil deity or archfiend, who particularly delights in corrupting the strong and drawing them into the darkness? So he can be all helpful to the party, but at the same time seek to lead them down a dark path (or, as he'd call it, an "effective" path). Alternatively... high Cha would also suit a LE knight or any of the various flavours of evil Paladin, a Crusader, a Wilder, or, if lighter armour is acceptable, a Bard or Beguiler. To get around the party, he could both be very helpful and charming to them, and put on a public act of heroics in between more private acts of wanton cruelty.

Would any of those be the sort of thing he might enjoy?

[stainboy]

Necrocarnate? YOU DESTROY SOULS TO RECHARGE YOUR CLASS ABILITIES!

Necrocarnum being super double evil is kind of an informed trait. If the book didn't tell you how bad it was at every opportunity, nobody would get worked up about turning glowy blue stuff into glowy black stuff.

It's a good starting point, but it won't make Caligula blush with envy any more than just being a blackguard.

[Zaq]

Necrocarnum being super double evil is kind of an informed trait. If the book didn't tell you how bad it was at every opportunity, nobody would get worked up about turning glowy blue stuff into glowy black stuff.

It's a good starting point, but it won't make Caligula blush with envy any more than just being a blackguard.

Most of the abilities labeled as evil are pretty much informed traits. (Plenty of evil ACTIONS are not, but until I see a spell that specifically says that it only burns starving children . . .) There's still great potential for what you do with it.

Besides, that's also kind of ignoring the Necrocarnate PrC, which literally sucks the souls out of your foes. So there's that.

[Sarco_Phage]

Most of the abilities labeled as evil are pretty much informed traits. (Plenty of evil ACTIONS are not, but until I see a spell that specifically says that it only burns starving children . . .) There's still great potential for what you do with it.

Or "every time you cast this spell, Pelor kills a kitten".

Although the justification for labeling the Negative Energy spells as [evil] as far as I recall has something to do with the fact that they are inherently harmful. When you cast a negative energy spell on the Prime Material Plane, you are drawing Negative Energy into your plane, which is harmful and a Bad Thing.

However casting NE spells in the NE plane should be non-evil.

[Yora]

What about the other party members? If they traveled with a paladin, I don't think they would tollerate an "OMG I am so Evil!!!" guy for long.

[Zaq]

Playing the charming evil guy can be an exercise in fun roleplaying. Remember that most people are generally willing to listen to and work with someone who agrees with them on a few important points and tells them what they want to hear, even if they know on some level that there's probably part of the situation they don't quite like.

That may or may not be what he's going for here, but with the talk about sophistication, it's not impossible.

[Sarco_Phage]

What about the other party members? If they traveled with a paladin, I don't think they would tollerate an "OMG I am so Evil!!!" guy for long.

A Pally, according to the Code, can't knowingly travel with a kitten-eating evil character. Maybe he could travel (knowingly) with a mildly evil type, but not a kitten-eater.

[HalfDragonCube]

Take a flaw where you fall into uncontrollable fits of laughter every time you witness something suffer.

Buy golf clubs and stick boots to the ends. Then stick them all together and run around kicking five puppies at once.

[lord pringle]

I'd just go for a rogue. Ever read Terry Pratchet's Going Postal? Be Reacher Gilt.

[Voldecanter]

Well it really depends on the Character Concept, but I would say one seemingly random act of evil after another, that is detrimental to every other party member is more or less The Line that people should consider not crossing. I find that Evil characters without some grandiose overarching purpose tend to fizzle out.

[thorgrim29]

I like the artificer idea a lot. Who needs a demiplane when you can build a network of portable holes with evil workshops, torture rooms, slaves, undead and construct minions, and a few bottles of air. When you need crafting xp, just go kidnap some bandits and drain them, or if you want to make a point raid a convent or an abbey dedicated to the local LG god, and when they start sending pallies your way capture them, drain them of xp, make flesh golems out of them, and use them to fight the next wave. Also, death knights, etc... Basically, act like a very smart BBEG.

[paddyfool]

Incidentally, to answer the question raised in the title: Evil that screws over the party or the campaign is too evil. Otherwise, it's all good, just not Good good ;-)

[nedz]

Maybe you shuold consider some of the Fiend PrCs in Fiend Folio ?

[Tokuhara]

Favored Soul? Don't vashar avoid serving anyone? They oppose all gods and refuse to be thralls/servants of greater evil... Ur Priest however would be fun tho...

This is how he plans on being evil. Apparently, he offers 5-10 poor villagers to a remote location with promise of money. He then tells them to kill each other, saying the survivor gets to live and take a sum of money. When one is left standing, he kills the villager just for the pleasure of it. He also wants to cause wanton destruction just because he may suddenly feel the need to.

So perhaps some way to early enter Ur Priest with a decent BAB would be ideal for him. Remember: let your dark side loose...

[Flickerdart]

Ardent/Ur-Priest going into Cerebremancer and Body Leech could be pretty effective, and considering Ardent's awesomeness there's room in there for multiclassing and still being able to get double nines.

[fryplink]

Tarquin maybe? We don't know what his build is, but we know he is defiantly evil and that he is a refined likable character. For your character, how about something none traditional, such as a Marshal or a mix of aura classes and bard. Imagine a character like a Marshal X/Dragon Shaman X/Bard X I imagine its sub-par but its always been something I've wanted to try. A support character who uses a non scaling Dragon Shaman aura (maybe healing aura and that aura that causes damage when a party member is attacked), two levels of marshal to get a major and minor aura at the same time and then go straight bard from there for Bardic Music (what you are looking for) and light casting (would have to be out of combat utility stuff).

Its probably a horrible character idea split too many ways, but it feels like it would grow in power with larger parties. But being made of Marshal and Bard it can be refined and horrible telling speeches about how we are going to destroy our opponents and hold no mercy right before cutting someone in two. The dragon shaman would just be to add some supernatural feeling to it. Nothing says evil like being capable of breathing fire and having ties to evil reptiles!

[Element Zero]

Now, I don't know if it fits into the character concept exactly, but no one here I believe has mentioned the Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror. The class is centered around raising, creating, and controlling undead...even the class description says the most well-meaning of DN's can't avoid evil acts as a part of their profession.

Personally I've been trying to play one for years, but haven't found a game yet where the other PCs won't slaughter me just for existing...

[Tokuhara]

My buddy digs the Psi Theurge, but he asks how can he early enter Ur Priest and how can Human Paragon be incorporated

[Coidzor]

A couple of rules of thumb I live by:

If you get the cops or campus security called on you for what you're saying in character, that's too Evil.

If you'd get the cops or campus security called on you if any innocent bystanders could hear what you're saying, that's too Evil.

If you'd put off any members of the sexes you'd consider the pool of potential lovers for you that you wouldn't just by playing D&D at all from what you're saying, that's probably too Evil.

If the DM has to ask you to tone it down, that's probably too Evil.