Question about Mechanics

[hoff]

I have some mechanics question about some events that happened on the comic

1) What are those instant-undead killing spells that durkon/V casted on roy during the dungeon of durokan battle with Xykon? Why hasn't durkon used those in the azure city siege before roy jumped on the dragon?

2) How did Roy (a level 12ish fighter during the dungeon of durokan) managed to grapple a demi-Lich Xykon (level 23+ during the dungeon of durokan). Also how did he knocked his head over with a punch?

3) Shouldn't an epic leveled Lich have some kind of Spell Resist? How can that not come up during the V vs Xykon magic battle?

4) If Banjo, the Clown actually get enough followers would he develop sentience and later (with more followers) ascend to godhood? Are there any evidence of something like this happening in a d&d setting? For example, tribals venerated the thunder out of fear, then a god was born out of that worship. That god then became the God of the Thunder.

5) What exactly are Girard class(es)? I see he using two scimitars but he is also a human master of illusions.

6) Is V soul-splices actually a rule in some kind of book? If so which one? How does it work?

7) In this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html) comic Durkon commands the druid with some words. Are those spells? Did the druid make the saving throw in the first sit command?

8) Where does Xykon shop for magic items? It's not like he can kill and or steal the owners of all the items he has. So he must have some Wizard friend that is good with divinations to get his widescreen scrying crystal ball...

9) What class is the Azurite blind mage? I don't remember if I saw her in the boats or the resistance, did she survive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html)? If not it's a shame, she was one of the coolest azurites.

10) What magic item does Elan have that gives him acess to TV Tropes wiki?

[HappyBlanket]

1) V's spell (Bull's Strength (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm)) doesn't kill undead. It provides a bonus to STR, which helps Roy deal damage. Durkon's spell (Disruption (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptingWeapon.htm)), only destroys Undead whose HD is lower than the Cleric's caster level. Xykon's level is too high to be affected, though Durkon probably didn't know that at the time.

2) Rule of Plot, or whatever it's called.

3) I don't think Liches have spell resistance, actually. You'll want to have a second opinion, however.

6) "Don't bother looking it up."

7) No mechanics involved there. Just "sit down or we go back to hitting you."

8) Magic mart. Best Buy. Etc.

9) Could've been a simple Wizard specializing in Divinations.

10) Some cursed Artifact.

[Thanatosia]

8) Where does Xykon shop for magic items? It's not like he can kill and or steal the owners of all the items he has. So he must have some Wizard friend that is good with divinations to get his widescreen scrying crystal ball...
He got the Teevo Crystal Ball at Quest Buy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html)
In Start of Darkness, he mentions he got a magic ring from eBay

But I suspect most of his magic items come from spending 8 hours a day and resenting the fact that he can't do more even though he's awake 24/7 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) making them himself.

[theNater]

2)The only things that affect grapple checks are attack bonus, strength, and size. Being a lich doesn't improve any of these things, a level 12 fighter has the same attack bonus as a level 23 sorcerer, and Roy is probably stronger than Xykon.

Removing Xykon's head inconvenienced him about as much as beheading the zombie dragon inconvenienced it, so there's no reason it shouldn't happen.

3)Spell resistance is not automatic to liches. Liches do get 15 points of damage resistance to magic and immunity to several damage types; acquiring more immunities(as Xykon has done) is probably more cost-effective than trying to gain SR.

4)Rules for this vary from setting to setting. We know something like this can happen in OotS, because the elves and goblins have raised up their own gods (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html).

5)Two swords and tracking abilities suggests ranger to me. He appears to be wearing a chain shirt, that plus illusions suggests bard. As such, my guess is that he's a bard with just a little ranger(to help with combat effectiveness), possibly with some prestige class that builds on that base.

Edit: misremembered how 3.5 DR worked.

[Thanatosia]

3)Spell resistance is not automatic to liches. Liches do get 15 points of damage resistance to magic
Liches get Damage Reduction 15/Magic and Blugeoning

This does not mean they resist magic damage, it means that magic and blugeoning weapons Bypasses their 15 damage reduction.

[FujinAkari]

2)3)Spell resistance is not automatic to liches. Liches do get 15 points of damage resistance to magic and immunity to several damage types; acquiring more immunities(as Xykon has done) is probably more cost-effective than trying to gain SR.

Even if Xykon has spell resistance from items, which is likely, SR works by making you make a caster level check against the SR rating, so if Xykon has SR 30 (meaning you have to roll 1d20+caster level) then a level 20 mage will fail half the time.

V, however, is a caster 14ish + 3 epic levels = 75ish. 1d20+75 always beats 30. :P

[Kish]

I have some mechanics question about some events that happened on the comic

2) How did Roy (a level 12ish fighter during the dungeon of durokan) managed to grapple a demi-Lich Xykon (level 23+ during the dungeon of durokan). Also how did he knocked his head over with a punch?

Just to say, Xykon is not a demi-lich.


5) What exactly are Girard class(es)? I see he using two scimitars but he is also a human master of illusions.

He mentioned a ranger dip for tracking. Other than that we don't know, and I don't know why him being human is relevant.


6) Is V soul-splices actually a rule in some kind of book? If so which one? How does it work?

The fiends explicitly said not to try to look it up, remember?


7) In this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html) comic Durkon commands the druid with some words. Are those spells?

No.


9) What class is the Azurite blind mage? I don't remember if I saw her in the boats or the resistance, did she survive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html)? If not it's a shame, she was one of the coolest azurites.

Xykon's undead dragon killed her before it was visible to anyone but her, remember?


10) What magic item does Elan have that gives him acess to TV Tropes wiki?
What?

[hoff]

I remember Xykon saying that during the soul-splicing V extra souls were tied to V "lame-ass mid-level" which mean that although she/he has epic magic she/he was still casting it using her/his own caster level. That is what I understood.


7) I thought that Durkon had a special spell called "Power Word Sit". That would be awesome.

8) I know that Xykon crafts his own magic items, but sorcerers are pretty bad at crafting because they can't swap spells around. Also the "Power beats Power" philosophy of Xykon goes against spending his XP with crafting. As I see it Xykon would never make himself weaker in order to have more trinkets. So Quest Buy is probably the way to go...

[suszterpatt]

8) I know that Xykon crafts his own magic items, but sorcerers are pretty bad at crafting because they can't swap spells around. Also the "Power beats Power" philosophy of Xykon goes against spending his XP with crafting. As I see it Xykon would never make himself weaker in order to have more trinkets. So Quest Buy is probably the way to go...That is completely the opposite of Xykon's "power equals power" philosophy. The entire point is that power isn't just a measure of XP, blasting capability or anything like that, it's the sum total of all your abilities and how you utilize them. Sacrificing a small chunk of XP to become immune to your favorite AoE spell certainly seems like a trade up.

[t209]

1) V's spell (Bull's Strength (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm)) doesn't kill undead. It provides a bonus to STR, which helps Roy deal damage. Durkon's spell (Disruption (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptingWeapon.htm)), only destroys Undead whose HD is lower than the Cleric's caster level. Xykon's level is too high to be affected, though Durkon probably didn't know that at the time.

I think he meant Turn Undead Spell from this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html).

[Kish]

Turn Undead is not a spell. A cleric's Turn Undead ability might--emphasis on might--make a lich run away, provided the Turning cleric's level equalled or exceeded the lich's hit dice.

Whether Durkon's level is equal to or greater than Xykon's, I leave as an exercise for the reader.

[Nimrod's Son]

I think he meant Turn Undead Spell from this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html).
He specifically said he wanted to know what spells were cast on Roy during the fight with Xykon, so he meant this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html) strip.

[theNater]

Liches get Damage Reduction 15/Magic and Blugeoning

This does not mean they resist magic damage, it means that magic and blugeoning weapons Bypasses their 15 damage reduction.
You are, of course, correct. I've edited my post to account for this.

Thanks for the heads up!

Even if Xykon has spell resistance from items, which is likely, SR works by making you make a caster level check against the SR rating, so if Xykon has SR 30 (meaning you have to roll 1d20+caster level) then a level 20 mage will fail half the time.

V, however, is a caster 14ish + 3 epic levels = 75ish. 1d20+75 always beats 30. :P
If the caster level for spells cast in the splice is the sum of the caster levels of the participants, then yes, any sort of vaguely realistic SR will be automatically overcome. However, if the caster level of the spell is based on the owner of the spell, checks would still need to be made.

We know that V's effective level is incredibly high, but that's not the same as caster level.

[Kish]

Xykon did not spell resist any of Vaarsuvius' spells. Xykon has actually never spell resisted a spell in his on-stage unlife. Those are facts. Why that is the case is speculation.

[FujinAkari]

If the caster level for spells cast in the splice is the sum of the caster levels of the participants, then yes, any sort of vaguely realistic SR will be automatically overcome. However, if the caster level of the spell is based on the owner of the spell, checks would still need to be made.

We know that V's effective level is incredibly high, but that's not the same as caster level.

We don't know to a certainty, but we -do- know this is "Ultimate Arcane Power" and being able to automatically ignore Spell Resistance would certainly make sense, at least to me :)

[Thanatosia]

8) I know that Xykon crafts his own magic items, but sorcerers are pretty bad at crafting because they can't swap spells around. Also the "Power beats Power" philosophy of Xykon goes against spending his XP with crafting. As I see it Xykon would never make himself weaker in order to have more trinkets. So Quest Buy is probably the way to go...
Regaurdless of what you think of Sorceror item creation capacity or your interpretation of Xykon's Philosophy, Xykon has clearly and explicitly stated that he spends the maximum 8 hours every day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) that the rules allow him creating magic items.

[martianmister]

9) What class is the Azurite blind mage? I don't remember if I saw her in the boats or the resistance, did she survive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html)? If not it's a shame, she was one of the coolest azurites.

She is dead in third panel.

[Sarco_Phage]

Some people just say Roy rolled a triple 20, allowing him to outright slay Xykon with his hands.

[theNater]

We don't know to a certainty, but we -do- know this is "Ultimate Arcane Power" and being able to automatically ignore Spell Resistance would certainly make sense, at least to me :)
"Ultimate Arcane Power" continuing to obey the rules of arcane power(including issues with Spell Resistance) is what makes sense to me. /shrug

On the other hand, black dragons do get innate SR, and that didn't seem to be an issue for V. That doesn't tell us anything conclusive, other than the fact that V's normal caster level wasn't seeing heavy use during that fight.

[FujinAkari]

"Ultimate Arcane Power" continuing to obey the rules of arcane power(including issues with Spell Resistance) is what makes sense to me. /shrug

Having caster level represent the sum of all levels a character has in spellcasting classes isn't a violation of the rules of arcane powers.

[Nimrod's Son]

She is dead in third panel.
So how come she's alive again in the fourth?

(I agree she likely didn't survive that attack, by the way, but if she did die then we didn't see it.)

[adrejer]

7) In this comic Durkon commands the druid with some words. Are those spells? Did the druid make the saving throw in the first sit command?

It could be a spell named Command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/command.htm) but chances of it being this spell are not very good as the save DC of that spell would be abysmal and Leeky as a high (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html) level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireStorm.htm) druid would have a quite high will save modifier (at least 11 vs a DC of 14 if we assume a wis of Durkon to be 17).
Naturally if you were to use Greater Command you would have a DC of 19 but that would not be a great use of a fifth level spell slot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm#fifthLevelClericSpells).

[Sarco_Phage]

It could be a spell named Command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/command.htm) but chances of it being this spell are not very good as the save DC of that spell would be abysmal and Leeky as a high (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html) level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireStorm.htm) druid would have a quite high will save modifier (at least 11 vs a DC of 14 if we assume a wis of Durkon to be 17).
Naturally if you were to use Greater Command you would have a DC of 19 but that would not be a great use of a fifth level spell slot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm#fifthLevelClericSpells).

Leeky's probably 13th or 14th level though, given his spell list.

[adrejer]

Originally Posted by Sarco_Phage
Leeky's probably 13th or 14th level though, given his spell list.

I operated with a minimum level of 13 and a minimum wisdom of 17 for Leeky in my example of will save modifier.

[Sarco_Phage]

Indeed, I see that now.

[theNater]

Having caster level represent the sum of all levels a character has in spellcasting classes isn't a violation of the rules of arcane powers.
Sure it is. Caster level is (usually) the class level for the class granting the spell. A character with 8 sorcerer levels, 5 wizard levels, and 2 bard levels doesn't have a caster level of 15, they have a caster level of 8 with their sorcerer spells, 5 with their wizard spells, and 2 with their bard spells.

Also, we certainly don't know that the levels of the spliced souls counted as Vaarsuvius' levels for the duration of the splice.

[oswulf]

10) What magic item does Elan have that gives him acess to TV Tropes wiki?

Elan has dangerously genre savvy/medium awareness as a class feature.

[Sarco_Phage]

Elan has dangerously genre savvy/medium awareness as a class feature.

It's not a class feature, it's a feat he took at chargen that replaced his standard human bonus feat, that represents his descent from a man with similar adherence to dramatic convention.

[martianmister]

(I agree she likely didn't survive that attack, by the way, but if she did die then we didn't see it.)

In fourth panel there is Xs in her eyes.

[oswulf]

It's not a class feature, it's a feat he took at chargen that replaced his standard human bonus feat, that represents his descent from a man with similar adherence to dramatic convention.

Possibly. But it strikes me as a bard/nature of stories thing. And I'm wrong about medium awareness. Just the genre savvy. And I think it's wisdom-based which explains why he can be so hit-or-miss with it.

[Sarco_Phage]

In fourth panel there is Xs in her eyes.

From a non-mechanical perspective, let's look at it this way.

She just got bitten, by a dragon. A dragon that bit her WHOLE BODY. I'd think that's pretty fatal.

[Thanatosia]

Elan has dangerously genre savvy/medium awareness as a class feature.
Have we ever seen Elan use Bardic Lore? With his low Int, it probably would'nt be too effective even if he tried it, but I can't recall off the top of my head him ever even trying.

Maybe he has some form of Genre savvy power as an alternate class feature to Bardic Lore?

Roll Cha + Bard Level for chance to charm the Giant into granting insight through the 4th wall.

[Kish]

Have we ever seen Elan use Bardic Lore?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0260.html

[Swordpriest]

1. Got me.

2. Because it was still following Rule of Funny completely at that point.

3. For Pete's sake, didn't V have enough issues as an epic level caster in that fight, without manufacturing more?

4. Presumably Banjo could become a minor god with enough followers, since D&D seems to follow an election system of godhood.

5. Bard, mayhaps. Bards can wear chain shirts, so bard/ranger mix is most likely.

6. As pointed out a zillion times in the comic and on the forums, it was made up for the story.

7. No, he just realized that he'd lost.

8. Xykon complains about only being able to spend 8 hours a day making magic items. That pretty much sounds like he makes his magic items, doesn't it? :smallsigh:

9. Wizard specialized in divinations. Undoubtedly dead, since she was at least severely wounded by the dragon, then took a fall with far lower hit points that killed Roy, who undoubtedly has far more hit points.

10. Bardic knowledge. What on Earth is the use of a bard if they can't figure out the most basic storytelling tropes? :smallannoyed:

[HappyBlanket]

On the Diviner; she's dead. She's a full caster taking a melee attack from a goddamn dragon. Add the damage from that fall, and I think it's pretty certain that she won't be getting back up.

[Gift Jeraff]

On the Diviner; she's dead.
To build on this and answer part of question 9: Sangwaan (the blind mage) was probably a diviner (I can't remember if it was explicitly mentioned in the comic). That is, a wizard specializing in divination (presumably with necromancy barred, since it seems to be illegal in Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html)).

[theNater]

To build on this and answer part of question 9: Sangwaan (the blind mage) was probably a diviner (I can't remember if it was explicitly mentioned in the comic). That is, a wizard specializing in divination (presumably with necromancy barred, since it seems to be illegal in Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html)).
Given what we have since learned about Tsukiko, it is certainly possible that simply using spells in the necromancy school does not count as "Unnatural Acts of Wizardry".

[Sarco_Phage]

Given what we have since learned about Tsukiko, it is certainly possible that simply using spells in the necromancy school does not count as "Unnatural Acts of Wizardry".

Awww, now da's just nasty.

[Nimrod's Son]

In fourth panel there is Xs in her eyes.
No, in the forth panel she still has the same "True Seeing" eyes as in the other panels.

Interestingly, in the book the glow has been removed in panels two and four, leaving her eyes invisible. However, in panel four you can clearly see the parenthesis of surprise around her eyes, just as it is in panel two... so she was still alive at that point, at least. I've never seen a non-reanimated corpse that can make facial expressions.


She just got bitten, by a dragon. A dragon that bit her WHOLE BODY. I'd think that's pretty fatal.
Not that I don't tend to agree, but Haley was actually eaten by a dragon, and she managed to pull through. :smallwink:

[martianmister]

No, in the forth panel she still has the same "True Seeing" eyes as in the other panels.

No, she have Xs in her eyes:

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn265/martianmister/0tfLTF7QlFPevzVn2zb.gif

[Sarco_Phage]

Not that I don't tend to agree, but Haley was actually eaten by a dragon, and she managed to pull through. :smallwink:

It was a young black, not a zombified ancient Silver, though.

Actually, yeah, that should have killed Haley even harder.

[Nimrod's Son]

No, she have Xs in her eyes:
:smallconfused: Which you then illustrate with a picture that clearly shows the white True Seeing eyes, and not black Xs? Peculiar.

[Timberboar]

No, she have Xs in her eyes

I see no Xs.

[martianmister]

:smallconfused: Which you then illustrate with a picture that clearly shows the white True Seeing eyes, and not black Xs? Peculiar.

X shaped true seeing eyes. Peculiar indeed...


I see no Xs.

Her eyes clearly in X shape.

[hoff]

Great, I created another forum conspiracy theory...

[Nimrod's Son]

X shaped true seeing eyes. Peculiar indeed...



Her eyes clearly in X shape.
What? No they're not. They're the regular shape, and if it looks any different to you then it's because of the fuzziness of the zoom. Why would she still have True Seeing activated when she's dead? Why would she still have the "surprise" brackets round her eyes (which you can see very clearly in the book) if she was dead? Why would Rich draw her with Xs in the online strip, but then remove them in the book?

[martianmister]

What? No they're not. They're the regular shape, and if it looks any different to you then it's because of the fuzziness of the zoom.

It's not fuzziness. Similar-sized soldiers in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0432.html) have normal eyes even when I zoomed them.


http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn265/martianmister/twosoldier.gif
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn265/martianmister/0tfLTF7QlFPevzVn2zb.gif



Why would she still have True Seeing activated when she's dead?

To show her being dead.


Why would she still have the "surprise" brackets round her eyes (which you can see very clearly in the book) if she was dead? Why would Rich draw her with Xs in the online strip, but then remove them in the book?

I don't know. Maybe he changed his mind?

[Nimrod's Son]

It's not fuzziness. Similar-sized soldiers in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0432.html) have normal eyes even when I zoomed them.
Not only are those soldiers quite a bit bigger than Sangwaan in that panel, but they're different colours and they haven't gone through a rotation like the Sangwaan template has, so they're no basis for comparison. And zooming in with your browser is a bad idea, because it blurs the hell out of the picture.

What you're seeing as "clear" Xs is indeed just the fuzziness of the picture, because here's the actual pixels of that panel:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/sangwaan.jpg

...and as you can see, there is simply no way of showing clear Xs there. There isn't room. They're just the regular white eyes, shrunk down to the point where they're no longer perfectly clear. Which Rich subsequently removed, but left the expression lines on her face. Sorry, but she's definitely still alive in that panel.

[factotum]

I agree with Nimrod's Son there--those white eyes don't look like Xs to me. I think it's far more likely that the picture in the book is the same as the one on the website, and it's just clearer that her eyes aren't Xs when there are more than 3 pixels in each one!

Note that I'm not actually saying Sangwaan is alive, mind you--she got bitten by a dragon and then thrown off the top of a 30-foot wall, she's a goner. Not to mention that we'd have seen her again by now if she were still alive (as a member of the Resistance if nothing else).

[monomer]

What you're seeing as "clear" Xs is indeed just the fuzziness of the picture, because here's the actual pixels of that panel:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/sangwaan.jpg

...and as you can see, there is simply no way of showing clear Xs there. There isn't room. They're just the regular white eyes, shrunk down to the point where they're no longer perfectly clear. Which Rich subsequently removed, but left the expression lines on her face. Sorry, but she's definitely still alive in that panel.

I think you forgot to click the "Enhance Button (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EnhanceButton)" after you resized it. :smalltongue:

[Sarco_Phage]

Wait, guys, I just noticed that there's actually three precedents for a character having open non-X'd eyes at the point of death. Although all three involve the separation of the head from the rest of the central nervous system.

The first is the death of The Chief (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0360.html). The second is when Belkar kills the stubbly assassin guy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) The third is in SoD, when
Xykon snaps Lirian's neck; it takes a panel for the X's to appear.

So it's possible that Sangwaan is dead in mid-flight, and simply hasn't realized it yet.

[martianmister]

They weren't completely dead in these panels.

[Sarco_Phage]

They weren't completely dead in these panels.

And neither is Sangwaan, which is why she doesn't have the X's in her eyes which you insist on arguing for the existence of. :smallamused:

[martianmister]

And neither is Sangwaan, which is why she doesn't have the X's in her eyes which you insist on arguing for the existence of. :smallamused:

I'm not arguing about her lack of Xs on her eyes. I'm arguing because I see Xs in her eyes. Completely different circumstances...

[Timberboar]

Much like the kid in The Sixth Sense, martianmister sees dead people.

... no, I have nothing further to contribute, but the joke amused me.

No offense intended, MM.

[Sarco_Phage]

Much like the kid in The Sixth Sense, martianmister sees dead people.

... no, I have nothing further to contribute, but the joke amused me.

No offense intended, MM.

This from the dude who's wearing Celia as a backpack?:smallamused:

[hoff]

One new question: How did Durkon managed dispel Xykon invisibility in the battle for Azure city? Xykon is probably 10 or more levels higher than Durkon. And how did he not dispel the overland flight spell?

[theNater]

One new question: How did Durkon managed dispel Xykon invisibility in the battle for Azure city? Xykon is probably 10 or more levels higher than Durkon.
It's fairly common for a natural 20 to be regarded as an automatic success, even if it shouldn't be. This is a (houseruled) extension of the rule that a natural 20 on an attack roll is always a hit, even if the target is unhittable by the numbers.

And how did he not dispel the overland flight spell?
Dispels check against each effect independently.

[factotum]

One new question: How did Durkon managed dispel Xykon invisibility in the battle for Azure city? Xykon is probably 10 or more levels higher than Durkon. And how did he not dispel the overland flight spell?

How do you know that the Invisibility that was cast on the Dragon was Xykon's spell? It might have been Redcloak's. If it was, then it would be an achievable DC for Durkon to make to dispel the Invisibility, whereas the Overland Flight (obviously Xykon's own spell) was beyond his reach.

[MReav]

I say the power of plot and call it a day.

[theNater]

How do you know that the Invisibility that was cast on the Dragon was Xykon's spell? It might have been Redcloak's. If it was, then it would be an achievable DC for Durkon to make to dispel the Invisibility, whereas the Overland Flight (obviously Xykon's own spell) was beyond his reach.
Clerics don't get Greater Invisibility. It's not Redcloak's.

That doesn't necessarily mean it's Xykon's, though. It could have come from an item. Also, I don't know all of the abilities of the Xykon decoys, so I can't rule out the possibility that it came from one of them.

[Sarco_Phage]

The decoy with casting abilities was a Huecuva, a fallen undead Cleric. We only see him casting Cleric spells.

[hoff]

New question: When did Xykon got to epic levels? Before the start of the strip, before he became a lich, after the dungeon of durokan (raiding his old tower) or after the battle for Azure City?

For some reason I got the impression Xykon was not epic during the dungeon of durokan. The only confirmation I know that Xykon is epic is from his battle with V...

[Gnoman]

Dorukan was an epic caster. Xykon killed him and has been casting an epic spell that Dorukan invented on a regular basis from the moment that that happened. Xykon was therefore epic before the battle.

[hoff]

The cloyster spell is used from a item made by durokan (a pendant or something, it showed up in one strip after the fall of Azure city), Xykon does not know how to cast it...

[Sarco_Phage]

New question: When did Xykon got to epic levels? Before the start of the strip, before he became a lich, after the dungeon of durokan (raiding his old tower) or after the battle for Azure City?

For some reason I got the impression Xykon was not epic during the dungeon of durokan. The only confirmation I know that Xykon is epic is from his battle with V...

SoD Spoilers
Xykon went epic loooooong before the events of the comic, but he's been previously shown to wipe the floor with more powerful opponents. He killed Lirian easily because she wasn't prepared to fight a Lich and had no idea what a Lich was in the first place, he killed Dorukan with sheer arcane force (multiple Energy Drains) and he hit Darth V with a goddamn boulder.

Regardless of his level, which is anywhere from 25-30, Xykon is frigging scary. That's why he's the BBEG after all.

[theNater]

The cloyster spell is used from a item made by durokan (a pendant or something, it showed up in one strip after the fall of Azure city), Xykon does not know how to cast it...
If I remember it right, the lame hippie headband is a material focus(a necessary ingredient) for the spell, not the source of the spell.

That is, in order to cast the spell you need to know how to cast it and have the item.

[hoff]

If I remember it right, the lame hippie headband is a material focus(a necessary ingredient) for the spell, not the source of the spell.

That is, in order to cast the spell you need to know how to cast it and have the item.

Good point, but how did a Sorcerer learned a (researched) spell from a wizard? Don't Sorcerers magic come naturally? Which means that the in-game character doesn't actually choose his own spells, it just comes to him. I find that a magic item that casts the spell to make much more sense.

[Sarco_Phage]

Good point, but how did a Sorcerer learned a (researched) spell from a wizard? Don't Sorcerers magic come naturally? Which means that the in-game character doesn't actually choose his own spells, it just comes to him. I find that a magic item that casts the spell to make much more sense.

Epic magic.

It doesn't work the same way as standard magic.

That's all.

[Kish]

There's no such thing as an item which can cast an epic spell.

[hamishspence]

Excepting the occasional artifact, yes (in the Epic Handbook, Eclavdra has an artifact amulet that can cast the epic spell Crown of Vermin).

[hoff]

Also why would Xykon waste one of his "know spells" (especially one of such high level) with a spell that not only is not useful in combat but that he only used once so far?

[Nimrod's Son]

Also why would Xykon waste one of his "know spells" (especially one of such high level) with a spell that not only is not useful in combat but that he only used once so far?
He's been renewing the Cloister every few weeks. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html)

[factotum]

Also why would Xykon waste one of his "know spells" (especially one of such high level) with a spell that not only is not useful in combat but that he only used once so far?

As Sarco_Phage points out, epic magic does not work in the same way as normal magic does--epic spells do not count against a character's normal limit of spells known. Besides, if you're worried about Xykon wasting known spell slots for useless magic, surely "Xykon's Moderately-Escapable Forcecage" would be a much better candidate?

[hoff]

As Sarco_Phage points out, epic magic does not work in the same way as normal magic does--epic spells do not count against a character's normal limit of spells known. Besides, if you're worried about Xykon wasting known spell slots for useless magic, surely "Xykon's Moderately-Escapable Forcecage" would be a much better candidate?

Hm, I don't know anything about epic magic, but I assumed that they still consumed spells know for sorcerers. "Xykon's Moderately-Escapable Forcecage" is probably a house-rule (or metamagic feat) to allow a spell to be weaker than it normally is, in any case it would be of a much lower level anyway.

[Dvandemon]

No, in the forth panel she still has the same "True Seeing" eyes as in the other panels.

Interestingly, in the book the glow has been removed in panels two and four, leaving her eyes invisible. However, in panel four you can clearly see the parenthesis of surprise around her eyes, just as it is in panel two... so she was still alive at that point, at least. I've never seen a non-reanimated corpse that can make facial expressions.


Not that I don't tend to agree, but Haley was actually eaten by a dragon, and she managed to pull through. :smallwink:

No, she was swallowed whole, I'm not sure how much damage that deals, but I know victims can survive and try to escape before they die

[Thanatosia]

Maybe the greater invisibilty was from a low level potion or scroll Xykon was using. Since he's a sorceror who's usually given to the 'hit it until it dies' approach who scorns most forms of tactics and subtlety when he can get away with it (which is virtually always), it's not hard to imagine he never took invisibility as one of his known spells.

[Sarco_Phage]

No, she was swallowed whole, I'm not sure how much damage that deals, but I know victims can survive and try to escape before they die

He's talking about it from a realistic, not mechanical perspective. Granted, Haley wasn't chewed, but the experience should have killed her anyway.

[Wardog]

:smallconfused: Which you then illustrate with a picture that clearly shows the white True Seeing eyes, and not black Xs? Peculiar.

Clearly?

I don't see how anything in that picture can be described as "clear".

And given the scale and rotation, I don't see how live white eyes could be distinguished from dead white crosses.

(Honestly - this reminds me of people arguing about whether the freeze-frame determined speed of the debris from the Alderaan or Death Star explosions "canonically" proves that some sort of black-hole / hyperspace effect was occuring).

[Nimrod's Son]

And given the scale and rotation, I don't see how live white eyes could be distinguished from dead white crosses.
And why, pray, would the crosses be white? The white eyes are there to indicate True Seeing. If she was dead, the crosses would be black.


(Honestly - this reminds me of people arguing about whether the freeze-frame determined speed of the debris from the Alderaan or Death Star explosions "canonically" proves that some sort of black-hole / hyperspace effect was occuring).
Yeah? Don't see the similarity myself. We're talking about a named, recurring character, and whether she was alive or not last time we saw her. Pretty different from speculating on unrelated physics issues, or even assuming Star Wars and physics have anything to do with each other in the first place.

[Sarco_Phage]

Yeah? Don't see the similarity myself. We're talking about a named, recurring character, and whether she was alive or not last time we saw her. Pretty different from speculating on unrelated physics issues, or even assuming Star Wars and physics have anything to do with each other in the first place.

Speaking of which, it's pretty clear to me that Sangwaan was alive when the dragon bit and flung her, but likely died when she hit the ground.

[martianmister]

And why, pray, would the crosses be white? The white eyes are there to indicate True Seeing. If she was dead, the crosses would be black.

Normally we can't see her eyes behind band. Her True Seeing eyes with Xs indicate her being dead at that moment.

[Nimrod's Son]

Speaking of which, it's pretty clear to me that Sangwaan was alive when the dragon bit and flung her, but likely died when she hit the ground.
Yes, that seems by far the most likely situation to me, too.


Normally we can't see her eyes behind band. Her True Seeing eyes with Xs indicate her being dead at that moment.
So, again, why were they removed for the book? The Sangwaan in panel four is the same as the one in panel two, only rotated and shrunk down. Putting white Xs there would require actively changing the eyes of the template. If he'd gone to the trouble of doing that, why would he get rid of them again for the printed version?

You really think it's more likely that Rich drew her as being dead for the online strip, and then changed his mind and brought her back to life for the book? 'Cause I reckon it's a million times more likely that he just rotated the same Sangwaan template he used in panel two, and later realised that when the dragon bit her, her True Seeing should have been deactivated - hence the corrections.

[HappyBlanket]

Normally we can't see her eyes behind band. Her True Seeing eyes with Xs indicate her being dead at that moment.
emphasis mine

This is literally impossible.
She can't have True Seeing active while she's dead. It's mechanically impossible.

[Sarco_Phage]

Again, I cite the precedent of Lirian, Assassin Guy, and the Chief. Her eyes don't have to be X's, they clearly aren't X's, and arguing that they are X's is just silly.

[martianmister]

She can't have True Seeing active while she's dead. It's mechanically impossible.

Really? We are talking about dead peoples who had X shaped eyes and you talking about mechanics?


Again, I cite the precedent of Lirian, Assassin Guy, and the Chief. Her eyes don't have to be X's, they clearly aren't X's, and arguing that they are X's is just silly.

I really don't know what are you talking about...


So, again, why were they removed for the book?

I don't really know. May he changed his mind? So anyway, we'll agree to disagree. Discussion about that anymore is unnecessary and infertile.

[Nimrod's Son]

Discussion about that anymore is unnecessary and infertile.
Yes, I'd gathered that; your position is baseless and illogical but you're clearly absolutely adamant about sticking to it anyway. Ah well.

[Gift Jeraff]

I feel the need to point out if she does have X's in her eyes, then she'll be the only character to have the :smalleek: look plus X's.
{scrubbed}
Schrodinger's Diviner?

[martianmister]

Yes, I'd gathered that; your position is baseless and illogical but you're clearly absolutely adamant about sticking to it anyway. Ah well.

Well then, if you want to discuss it more...

At first I show you these pictures:

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn265/martianmister/0tfLTF7QlFPevzVn2zb.gif
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn265/martianmister/twosoldier.gif

Then you claimed this:


Not only are those soldiers quite a bit bigger than Sangwaan in that panel

As you can see in these first (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0432.html) and fourth (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html) panels, they nearly same and not bigger than Sangwaan.


I feel the need to point out if she does have X's in her eyes, then she'll be the only character to have the :smalleek: look plus X's.

Where? :smallconfused: Mom! I want to marry Edgar! I'm in love with him!

[Deliverance]

emphasis mine

This is literally impossible.
She can't have True Seeing active while she's dead. It's mechanically impossible.
Why?

The description of True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) at d20srd says nothing about requiring a live target. Heck, it only appears to require the target to have eyes due to needing an ointment for the eyes. :smallwink:

There's nothing in the spell description about requiring concentration or consciousness to maintain, it is just a magical effect affecting the eyes. It might not be of much practical use after death, there being no active mind to interpret what the eyes see, but why would the effect disappear upon death? (of either the caster or the target - Sangwaan was in this case both).

[ThePhantasm]

Methinks everyone in this thread should take a step back and say "Who cares?" The point is that she is dead.

[Nimrod's Son]

Methinks everyone in this thread should take a step back and say "Who cares?"
I'd imagine the answer to that question is likely, "The people who are still arguing about it." Feel free to join in or not, as you wish. "Did Sanwaan survive?" was one of the questions asked in the OP, so it's not like we're off topic here.


The point is that she is dead.
Except we don't know that. Yes, it's very likely, but not proven. In the book, which overrides the online comic (even if we do accept the ludicrous claim that Rich changed her eyes to white Xs and then shrank the template down so small that they're literally indistinguishable from regular eyes anyway) in terms of canonicity, Sangwaan's eyes are not visible at all but the brackets of surprise around them are. She was still alive in that panel, even if she was dead the next round.