Getting passive search checks (like an elf)

[ffone]

So, elves have a 'passive/automatic' ability to make Search checks for secret doors without actually using an action (or the player thinking to ask about it).

The SRD Epic material, curiously, has two identical feats for getting passive/automatic Search checks traps, 'Epic Trapfinding' or 'Trap Sense'.

Are there other ways of getting either of these abilities (i.e. if you're not an elf who spends an epic feat)? Items, nonepic feats, class features, etc?

[Aemoh87]

So, elves have a 'passive/automatic' ability to make Search checks for secret doors without actually using an action (or the player thinking to ask about it).

The SRD Epic material, curiously, has two identical feats for getting passive/automatic Search checks traps, 'Epic Trapfinding' or 'Trap Sense'.

Are there other ways of getting either of these abilities (i.e. if you're not an elf who spends an epic feat)? Items, nonepic feats, class features, etc?

Yes! Dungeonscape has a feat that adds traps to the elf ability to detect secret doors. Not only does this feat end the argument over if pit traps are secret doors but when paired with trap sense it is incredibly handy and DM friendly!

[ffone]

Thanks. Too bad it requires being an elf. Better than spending an epic feat if you are one though.

Has a 'mechanical traps' limitation, but many magic traps aren't covered by Trapfinding anyway...and if the party has a character with permanencied Arcane Sight or Detect Magic that'll ping magical traps more reliably (and from greater distance) anyway.

[Curmudgeon]

Thanks. Too bad it requires being an elf.
It doesn't require being an Elf; it also works if you have trapfinding as a class ability. The sticking point is the "trap sense +2" requirement. There aren't many ways of getting that.

[true_shinken]

Yes! Dungeonscape has a feat that adds traps to the elf ability to detect secret doors. Not only does this feat end the argument over if pit traps are secret doors but when paired with trap sense it is incredibly handy and DM friendly!

Is that so?! Man, that's awesome. I never noticed this feat. Heck, elves seem like great Rogues now.

[Curmudgeon]

Is that so?! Man, that's awesome. I never noticed this feat. Heck, elves seem like great Rogues now.
They always have been, given the DEX boost, low-light vision, and not needing to sleep. Plus there are so many Elf types that you can pick one to emphasize whatever other stat is important for your build. I like Silvanesti (from Dragonlance Campaign Setting) because it also increases INT, and that makes for more skill points.

[true_shinken]

They always have been, given the DEX boost, low-light vision, and not needing to sleep. Plus there are so many Elf types that you can pick one to emphasize whatever other stat is important for your build. I like Silvanesti (from Dragonlance Campaign Setting) because it also increases INT, and that makes for more skill points.

The not needing to sleep is pretty weak in most campaigns. I've yet to find a DM that would allow a Rogue to break WBL as you suggest or a group that would want to sit in a corner while teh player of the elf rogue goes on a sidequest every night.
A bonus to Dex and low-light vision are found in many other races, some that actually grant you good racial features. A xeph, for example, has a bonus to Dex, no penalty to Constitution, a bonus to speed, access to a feat that grants an extra attack and darkvision instead of low-light vision.
What I'm saying is, there are so many better races for a Rogue that saying elves makes for good Rogues sounds weird... that is, until I heard of this one feat.

[Curmudgeon]

I've yet to find a DM that would allow a Rogue to break WBL as you suggest
There's no "breaking" Wealth by Level, as that's only a useful tool when creating characters above 1st level; it's certainly not a rule. After character creation wealth is just what each character manages to accumulate from what the DM makes available in the world. Some characters will be better at accumulating wealth than others, just as some characters will be better at accumulating magic.

[Aemoh87]

There's no "breaking" Wealth by Level, as that's only a useful tool when creating characters above 1st level; it's certainly not a rule. After character creation wealth is just what each character manages to accumulate from what the DM makes available in the world. Some characters will be better at accumulating wealth than others, just as some characters will be better at accumulating magic.

WBL is not a rule... BUT IT IS A RULE. You go over it and things get crazy... and by crazy I mean ridiculously easy for the players. Now you might say, well just increase the CR of the encounters. But the game doesn't work like that, you are going to create disparity in damage and Hp if you do this. This is both in the players and in the monsters. It gets even worse if the party focuses on defense because they can easily become untouchable.

On the other hand if you play under it goes the other way, and this is an idea many DM's include when playing with more experienced players since it makes the game more challenging.

Plus mini sessions are always a bad idea, it's just a way to bore your players.

[Volos]

Pathfinder Rogues can select Trap Sense as a Rogue Talent at 2nd level. All the more reason to play Pathfinder.

[Aemoh87]

Pathfinder Rogues can select Trap Sense as a Rogue Talent at 2nd level. All the more reason to play Pathfinder.

No one is going to argue that Pathfinder isn't a better game, except the people who have invested a large sum of money into 3.5. Plus sometimes it's nice to play a game you know extremely well.

[Volos]

No one is going to argue that Pathfinder isn't a better game, except the people who have invested a large sum of money into 3.5. Plus sometimes it's nice to play a game you know extremely well.

People could (and will) argue what they will. I'm just mentioning a way to get access to Trap Sense sooner. I've heard that people like to mix Pathfinder classes/feats/items/skills into 3.5 without converting all the way. Not sure why they'd want to, but I know that people do it. Since an edition wasn't mentioned in the OP, I figured it couldn't hurt to mention that this ability is avaliable at low levels in a very similar game that belongs in these same sub-forums.

[true_shinken]

There's no "breaking" Wealth by Level, as that's only a useful tool when creating characters above 1st level; it's certainly not a rule. After character creation wealth is just what each character manages to accumulate from what the DM makes available in the world. Some characters will be better at accumulating wealth than others, just as some characters will be better at accumulating magic.

I'll just point you to everything written here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10748616&postcount=9), for it's the truth.

[Aemoh87]

I will take this moment to mention TBL. That's time by level. There is no table for this but it something DM's need to learn to balance. It's also called spotlight. And it is very hard to balance. This is because some players don't want the spotlight and some players refuse to give it up. Also because certain classes tend to hog it more than others. Fighters have to be brash and ultra violent to get half the spot light time of a rogue who insists on going solo every night to rob people. Another example of this is high level wizards who feel they are untouchable so they are the solution to ever conflict.

Letting your rogue go out every night even if he doesn't pick up a substantial amount of wealth they will take up time where your other players aren't allowed to play. How do you compensate this? Some DM's forgo the role play of sneak thievery and reduce it to a simple skill check that takes seconds. Others give every player a mini session (which just makes the problem even worse).

The reality is you need to build your character to play as a group if you want to your campaign to go anywhere. Disparity and selfishness quickly can lead to disinterest and one shot campaigns.

[Curmudgeon]

WBL is not a rule... BUT IT IS A RULE. You go over it and things get crazy... and by crazy I mean ridiculously easy for the players.
I'm not suggesting that the DM exceed DMG Table 3–3: Treasure Values per Encounter. I am suggesting that characters with the appropriate abilities will be likely to either have more encounters, and/or get more of the treasure in each encounter. Typically that's characters with classes like Rogue, Ninja, Scout, Dread Pirate, and Thief-Acrobat. I don't think I've ever heard people complain that players of such characters have it "ridiculously easy".

I will take this moment to mention TBL. That's time by level. There is no table for this but it something DM's need to learn to balance.
I understand this quite well. It's the thing that's eaten up in bits and pieces by every player who's got a PC plus a familiar, animal companion, special mount, cohort, followers, or whatever. That's rarely the case for a Rogue slipping out in the night for a little extra income. Don't you think they deserve equal treatment?

[Aemoh87]

I'm not suggesting that the DM exceed DMG Table 3–3: Treasure Values per Encounter. I am suggesting that characters with the appropriate abilities will be likely to either have more encounters, and/or get more of the treasure in each encounter. Typically that's characters with classes like Rogue, Ninja, Scout, Dread Pirate, and Thief-Acrobat. I don't think I've ever heard people complain that players of such characters have it "ridiculously easy".

I would complain if I was a fighter who relied on loot that I had to share from combat if the rogue was getting considerable wealth for doing solo missions that usually relies on skill checks. With that said I am sure the rogue would be angry if the fighter entered an arena and made a considerable amount of wealth and the rogue did not have a way to make that up.


I understand this quite well. It's the thing that's eaten up in bits and pieces by every player who's got a PC plus a familiar, animal companion, special mount, cohort, followers, or whatever. That's rarely the case for a Rogue slipping out in the night for a little extra income. Don't you think they deserve equal treatment?

The biggest thing these encounters take up time that other players are not involved in. Yes people who have a ridiculous amount of turns are annoying but just because the problem exist doesn't mean it's open warfare for spotlight. It means that rogues and summoners should (as well as every player) do their best to make their actions quickly. When I DM I do not allow summoners to summon anything they don't have pre-prepared resources for. If they are digging through monster manuals looking for something to do or reading up on the powers of the summon they just discovered I skip them. I do the same thing for casters who don't know the effects of their spells. My party has created a system for attacks en mass to bring followers and armies down to a single attack and damage roll. Players should think on their toes and know their capabilities to keep the game moving quickly as well as to give everyone a chance to shine. And if your shine doesn't fit into this party model, then maybe you should think about playing your character differently.

There is a place for every character model, maybe these rogue models should be saved for a stealth campaign when the whole party can be involved. This is the same as when the party decides to play evil but one character won't abandon his idea for a LG Paladin.

[Quietus]

I'm not suggesting that the DM exceed DMG Table 3–3: Treasure Values per Encounter. I am suggesting that characters with the appropriate abilities will be likely to either have more encounters, and/or get more of the treasure in each encounter. Typically that's characters with classes like Rogue, Ninja, Scout, Dread Pirate, and Thief-Acrobat. I don't think I've ever heard people complain that players of such characters have it "ridiculously easy".

I understand this quite well. It's the thing that's eaten up in bits and pieces by every player who's got a PC plus a familiar, animal companion, special mount, cohort, followers, or whatever. That's rarely the case for a Rogue slipping out in the night for a little extra income. Don't you think they deserve equal treatment?

You give a player extra time if they have extra critters along with them? Spotlight should be given out by player, not per character, so that Player X with his purely metamagic wizard doesn't get more spotlight time than Player Y with the druid, animal companion, and leadership. Also, if your Rogue is sneaking off every night with the intent to get extra loot/exp, sure they're going to get ahead if they pull it off, but as a DM, I'm going to politely ask them to knock it off, because it's boring for everyone else at the table to sit quietly while Sneaky McStealerpants is off having his solo adventure, again.

[Aemoh87]

You give a player extra time if they have extra critters along with them? Spotlight should be given out by player, not per character, so that Player X with his purely metamagic wizard doesn't get more spotlight time than Player Y with the druid, animal companion, and leadership.

Well put. Players need to play at the speed of the table to optimize fun.

[ffone]

It doesn't require being an Elf; it also works if you have trapfinding as a class ability. The sticking point is the "trap sense +2" requirement. There aren't many ways of getting that.

Oh thanks. I misread it as elf AND trapfinding rather than OR.

Too bad I traded away trap sense for the penetrating strike ACF!

[Thurbane]

Dwarves, Deep Gnomes and Deep Halflings get a similar ability, but only specific to stone items, or items disguised as stone.

[Aemoh87]

MAJOR UPDATE:

Find Relic (DR 347)
Gives you a search check if you pass within 10 ft. of an item worth 1,000+ gp. That is a sweet skill.

[true_shinken]

MAJOR UPDATE:

Find Relic (DR 347)
Gives you a search check if you pass within 10 ft. of an item worth 1,000+ gp. That is a sweet skill.

This gets boring.
"You walk into the palace. Make a Search check every time you take a step." :smalltongue:

[Aemoh87]

Even in a palace there is not a ton of items worth over 1k gold. Especially just sitting out. Maybe if your in a castle for a massive and rich kingdom, but this isn't average.

[true_shinken]

Even in a palace there is not a ton of items worth over 1k gold. Especially just sitting out. Maybe if your in a castle for a massive and rich kingdom, but this isn't average.

It was a joke, ya know.

[Aemoh87]

It was a joke, ya know.

I know... but this is the internet, one must always be on guard.

[Gadora]

Even in a palace there is not a ton of items worth over 1k gold. Especially just sitting out. Maybe if your in a castle for a massive and rich kingdom, but this isn't average.

So you're saying that a castle isn't worth 1,000 gold?:smalltongue:

[ffone]

MAJOR UPDATE:

Find Relic (DR 347)
Gives you a search check if you pass within 10 ft. of an item worth 1,000+ gp. That is a sweet skill.

AWESOME find, thanks! The 1,000 gp threshold covers pretty much every magic item, so if you don't have a char with permed Detect Magic that's grand.

Also, heh heh, that should cover a lot of magic traps....



This gets boring.
"You walk into the palace. Make a Search check every time you take a step." :smalltongue:

Take 10.

You can take 10 on almost all search checks (how often do you make them in combat?) and passive search checks by these hafta be made by the DM (if he tells you to make one, that by itself tells you there's an item nearby!). A good DM will either take 10 on such checks, or pre-roll them for important items so they don't slow things down (or give away the fact that a check is being made!)

[faceroll]

Any character with a craft magic item feat gets double WBL. Or maybe he doesn't? How do you handle Craft Wondrous Item or Artificers, Aemoh87?


So you're saying that a castle isn't worth 1,000 gold?:smalltongue:

The moat itself cost 50,000gp!

[Curmudgeon]

Take 10.
Close. I play Rogues, and take Skill Mastery and the Savvy Rogue feat.


I take 12.

[Aemoh87]

Any character with a craft magic item feat gets double WBL. Or maybe he doesn't? How do you handle Craft Wondrous Item or Artificers, Aemoh87?

The moat itself cost 50,000gp!

In stronghold builders guide book moats are architecture, not an item.

I count crafting as the price they paid to craft the item goes into their WBL. So say you craft a 10k gold item. It costs you (since your nice and didn't take any feats to lower the cost) 5k to make. That is 5k more to your wealth. It sounds like a bargain but it slows down level progression lowering the wealth I allow them to receive.

Artificers are tricky because the last way can hose their WBL but this is the easiest way to do it. Count the wealth you give them. I build my entire campaigns so I can monitor the average (while keeping every player close to the average) party wealth and keeping that close to WBL. Essentially every magic item the artificer eats counts towards the parties average wealth. This allows him to create as much as he pleases without creating a massive WBL outlier. For the rest he is using gold and that is easy to count and monitor.

Also even though you didn't ask, I give cohorts NPC WBL. So they only slightly increase the total party wealth and the total wealth to be had by an individual player. Followers is much tricker, but I have given them NPC WBL in the past, but they can become cash cows easily (as at low levels NPC WLB is higher than PC WBL). I help balance this with the idea that followers aren't as willing to hand over their money as cohorts and often focus it on spending on things they personally will use, tithing no more than 10% to the Leader.

[Solaris]

Just do what I did. My rogue player wanted to spend time sneaking off at night, stealing stuff. My other players didn't want to sit around while he did so. Thus, the rogue player and I got together for either a few hours before or a few hours after the regular gaming session where he could loot and plunder to his heart's content. Problem solutioned.

[Curmudgeon]

Just do what I did. My rogue player wanted to spend time sneaking off at night, stealing stuff. My other players didn't want to sit around while he did so. Thus, the rogue player and I got together for either a few hours before or a few hours after the regular gaming session where he could loot and plunder to his heart's content. Problem solutioned.
That's the best way to handle this, or other specific character needs (like the Wizard trying to locate scrolls of some obscure spells). Excellent DMing, Solaris. :smallsmile:

[Aemoh87]

Just do what I did. My rogue player wanted to spend time sneaking off at night, stealing stuff. My other players didn't want to sit around while he did so. Thus, the rogue player and I got together for either a few hours before or a few hours after the regular gaming session where he could loot and plunder to his heart's content. Problem solutioned.

My point is if the rogue gets extra hours a week so should everyone else. If I had to run 4 mini sessions each an hours long I would not be able to DM. It's only good DM'ing if you have the time and if the party is fair with the imbalance. If they are not happy about a player getting extra play time and wealth at little to no risk (I realize there is potential for risk, but come on these are skill checks) then it would be considered bad DM'ing.


That's the best way to handle this, or other specific character needs (like the Wizard trying to locate scrolls of some obscure spells). Excellent DMing, Solaris. :smallsmile:

Does it really take that long for a wizard to locate scrolls?

[Curmudgeon]

My point is if the rogue gets extra hours a week so should everyone else.
They're probably getting the extra time already, in bits and pieces for the actions of their familiar/animal companion/special mount. And let's not even start on Leadership ... :smallyuk:

Does it really take that long for a wizard to locate scrolls?
If they've got to travel to a bigger city, make Gather Information checks, and/or bribe someone to steer them in the right direction ─ yes, absolutely. While I know some DMs add a "Magic Mart" to their games, I prefer sticking to just what's in the D&D rules.

[Aemoh87]

They're probably getting the extra time already, in bits and pieces for the actions of their familiar/animal companion/special mount. And let's not even start on Leadership ... :smallyuk:

If they've got to travel to a bigger city, make Gather Information checks, and/or bribe someone to steer them in the right direction ─ yes, absolutely. While I know some DMs add a "Magic Mart" to their games, I prefer sticking to just what's in the D&D rules.

Usually the party travels with the wizard to the big city so they get to play and shop too. Plus its just a yes or no question. Is the scroll here or not, roll your gather info, get your answer. And I have talked about leadership before, but just because your house is on fire doesn't mean you should burn down the neighborhood.

I hold my players accountable for their extra actions, have 200 followers, pre-plan and have ideas ready so they can be implemented quickly. Also I consolidated rolls when it comes to those situations or use a victory point system so the action is focused on the party. As for animal companions, make it quick. Same with summons. If you need a great deal of time to find and play your summons maybe you shouldn't play a summoner.

In my sessions summons have to be pre-printed on their own piece of paper because players are not allowed to use Monster Manuals or the like in game. I usually don't let them rummage books in game either, pay attention and do your scouring for items, feats, and spells on your own time.

Now with the wizard example he may need a spell and there is no other reason for the party to go to the city. Well he should ask them to go with him anyways so they can be involved. Who knows what plot hook awaits them. I have seen quests where one character is searching for an item, usually he makes deals with other players to aid them on with their goals for their assistance. Then even though the reward is for one character the encounters involve everyone!

Another thing about the wizard example is who is making the gather info check hmmm? Prolly not him, defiantly another party member.

But when rogues go on their theft missions they often don't want/cant' get help. On the other hand, why not build the party for these kinds of encounters so everyone can be involved in the fun and you can go after bigger bounties. Another example of this is when a player wants to play paladin whiles everyone else agreed to be evil. Usually this just results in PC killing and short lived campaigns.

[ffone]

In stronghold builders guide book moats are architecture, not an item.

I count crafting as the price they paid to craft the item goes into their WBL. So say you craft a 10k gold item. It costs you (since your nice and didn't take any feats to lower the cost) 5k to make. That is 5k more to your wealth. It sounds like a bargain but it slows down level progression lowering the wealth I allow them to receive.


lolwut. So basically you ask your players to metagame: "I'd better level up rather than spend XP on crafting so that that dungeon will have more treasure in it."

Also, how does this work with party treasure division? Are the PCs expected to say "hey Bob, you're one level lower than us, so you get about 2/3rds as much of the loot as each of us, since that tracks our respective WBL."

[Curmudgeon]

But when rogues go on their theft missions they often don't want/cant' get help. On the other hand, why not build the party for these kinds of encounters so everyone can be involved in the fun and you can go after bigger bounties.
The issue is that spellcasters need their daily 9 hours (rest + preparation), whereas an Elf Rogue has an extra 5 hours every night starting from level 1, and they'll have the full extra 9 hours when they can afford magic to alleviate the fatigued condition. That 35-63 hours each week is enough time for the Rogue to generate a whole second income, circumstances permitting. It's just not possible that "everyone can be involved" unless you don't have any spellcasters in the party. It's also going to be problematic if other characters aren't Elves or Warforged, or capable of triggering a wand with a Cleric 1 spell in it (Ray of Resurgence) to remove fatigue.

[Aemoh87]

lolwut. So basically you ask your players to metagame: "I'd better level up rather than spend XP on crafting so that that dungeon will have more treasure in it."

Also, how does this work with party treasure division? Are the PCs expected to say "hey Bob, you're one level lower than us, so you get about 2/3rds as much of the loot as each of us, since that tracks our respective WBL."

I go off of average WBL. So if one person is lower level the whole parties WBL is lowered to the average. Also it's not asking them to metagame, it's a built in consequence so that crafters can't break WBL. This also means that the crafter isn't punished for crafting items for his/her party members.

But just for funzies... isn't the WBL table metagaming enough? They know how much they "should" have or can "expect" to have. Your playing a game, no matter what there is metagaming involved. How many character choices do players make just because of game mechanics.


The issue is that spellcasters need their daily 9 hours (rest + preparation), whereas an Elf Rogue has an extra 5 hours every night starting from level 1, and they'll have the full extra 9 hours when they can afford magic to alleviate the fatigued condition. That 35-63 hours each week is enough time for the Rogue to generate a whole second income, circumstances permitting. It's just not possible that "everyone can be involved" unless you don't have any spellcasters in the party. It's also going to be problematic if other characters aren't Elves or Warforged, or capable of triggering a wand with a Cleric 1 spell in it (Ray of Resurgence) to remove fatigue.

Spellcasters can easily just rest and prepare during the day so they can go out at night. Even clerics who prepare during the morning can just rest after they prepare. But just because you have extra time to go out at night doesn't mean that you have to use it. Believe me there isn't a class in this game that can't play in a stealth campaign... I have seen a knight played before. You seem to be under the impression characters have to rest at night.

The reality is are you players okay with it though? Is it fair? These are the same arguments that are generated with most character issues.

[ffone]

I go off of average WBL. So if one person is lower level the whole parties WBL is lowered to the average. Also it's not asking them to metagame, it's a built in consequence so that crafters can't break WBL. This also means that the crafter isn't punished for crafting items for his/her party members.

That doesn't mean you're not asking them to metagame, it means you think it's justified.

And your fix is hosing the other party members by reducing their treasure. In a non-altruistic multi-caster party your rule might even *encourage* item crafting for prisoner's-dilemma reasons ("Bob is crafting, which increases his wealth and decreases mine, so maybe I should take an item crafting feat too...")



But just for funzies... isn't the WBL table metagaming enough? They know how much they "should" have or can "expect" to have. Your playing a game, no matter what there is metagaming involved. How many character choices do players make just because of game mechanics.

There are two sources of metagaming here:

1. planning character based on an expectation of getting WBL.

2. knowing that your character's actions might actually affect how much treasure is found in an existing dungeon, on an existing NPC, etc.

Your proposal induces #2 (and doesn't help with #1). It's true #1 exists either way - but you're invoking the classic "there's already one bad thing, so I might as well do more of it!" argument, aka "the game system isn't perfect, so I might as well do whatever the heck I want". Which is not good reasoning, since you can easily make things worse.

Also in my experience #1 is not too bad, since while players typically do plan on what to do with their character's future treasure, it's the same irrespective of how much of it they get (they have a certain ordered list of things they'll buy/upgrade, and they go down the list as they get money, at whatever rate that happens), and also b/c there's some natural variation in the pace of treasure do to the monster treasure entries, placement of hoards in the campaign, etc.

#1 is an example of the type of metagaming which is 'using OOC knowledge'. #2 is an example of the type of metagaming which is 'knowing that your actions have illogical consequences on the game world, and acting accordingly'.

If you feel crafting is too powerful / breaks WBL too bad, just do something like raise crafting costs to more than 50%. (You might also want to raise the fraction of market value that PCs get for selling stuff, so that a character who crafts and sells stuff doesn't LOSE money.) what you're basically doing is metagame-punishing a character for acting rationally in-character.

Another option is to encourage or even insist that instead of XP costs they pay an additional 20% in gp cost, for a total of 70% (the XP cost is 1/25th the gp cost, and buying items with extra gp costs, like scrolls of permanency, have a 1 XP = 5 gp conversion, so at this rate 'buying' the XP to craft an item would come out to 1/5th of its market price.)

I encourage this when I DM, since it's convenient for me when every PC stays at the same XP total and level, and it avoids the "XP is a river" issue (lower level chars get more XP for a given encounter and thus level up faster and will catch up or possibly leapfrog, so in the long run XP costs are actually free.)

[Aemoh87]

That doesn't mean you're not asking them to metagame, it means you think it's justified.

And your fix is hosing the other party members by reducing their treasure. In a non-altruistic multi-caster party your rule might even *encourage* item crafting for prisoner's-dilemma reasons ("Bob is crafting, which increases his wealth and decreases mine, so maybe I should take an item crafting feat too...")

Remember there are 4 members in the party sometimes more so one craft doesn't affect it a whole lot. Plus if you look at the value of the items their wealth is higher than it should be. I don't know how this isn't fair? Also it encourages the crafter to craft for everyone not just himself since it is such a huge advantage to the party. At the same time what is your party crafting that it is setting them so far behind? I have never seen a crafter go a full levels worth of exp behind before except in epic situations where the character didn't plan on leveling anyways.


There are two sources of metagaming here:

1. planning character based on an expectation of getting WBL.

2. knowing that your character's actions might actually affect how much treasure is found in an existing dungeon, on an existing NPC, etc.

Your proposal induces #2 (and doesn't help with #1). It's true #1 exists either way - but you're invoking the classic "there's already one bad thing, so I might as well do more of it!" argument, aka "the game system isn't perfect, so I might as well do whatever the heck I want". Which is not good reasoning, since you can easily make things worse.

Also in my experience #1 is not too bad, since while players typically do plan on what to do with their character's future treasure, it's the same irrespective of how much of it they get (they have a certain ordered list of things they'll buy/upgrade, and they go down the list as they get money, at whatever rate that happens), and also b/c there's some natural variation in the pace of treasure do to the monster treasure entries, placement of hoards in the campaign, etc.

#1 is an example of the type of metagaming which is 'using OOC knowledge'. #2 is an example of the type of metagaming which is 'knowing that your actions have illogical consequences on the game world, and acting accordingly'.

Your talking about metagaming like it is a bad thing. It is a double edge sword but it's very important. I metagame when I look at the other players in my party to see what I should play. There are some cons when characters start remembering Monsters stat blocks or try and calculate save DCs.

Also I am not introducing #2. It's a natural consequence of this game, if you play by WBL then your level determines the wealth you get. Change your level and your treasure will change too. Still characters have no idea where their wealth will come from. Will it be drops in a dungeon, a chest full of loot, or a quest reward? They don't know when or where it's going to happen. And the difference of 1 character being a level behind does not change WBL that much at all. Especially when you factor in all the gear he is creating at half cost! Usually this would put the party ahead!


If you feel crafting is too powerful / breaks WBL too bad, just do something like raise crafting costs to more than 50%. (You might also want to raise the fraction of market value that PCs get for selling stuff, so that a character who crafts and sells stuff doesn't LOSE money.) what you're basically doing is metagame-punishing a character for acting rationally in-character.

Another option is to encourage or even insist that instead of XP costs they pay an additional 20% in gp cost, for a total of 70% (the XP cost is 1/25th the gp cost, and buying items with extra gp costs, like scrolls of permanency, have a 1 XP = 5 gp conversion, so at this rate 'buying' the XP to craft an item would come out to 1/5th of its market price.)

Your solution is destroy crafting and change the cost of every item?? My solution is just use a WBL averaging system that takes crafting into account. But your so scared that one character maybe being a level behind is going to hose the parties loot. I have never had this complaint from a player but I have had the complaint that crafting can throw off WBL.


I encourage this when I DM, since it's convenient for me when every PC stays at the same XP total and level, and it avoids the "XP is a river" issue (lower level chars get more XP for a given encounter and thus level up faster and will catch up or possibly leapfrog, so in the long run XP costs are actually free.)

Sounds like you just don't like the XP system in general. That's fine, but most players do. Also Leap Frogging is 1 in a million with perfect conditions where one player is literally a level behind but not even a handful of exp behind. And I just wouldn't allow that.

But for bonus funzies at the end, in your no XP game how do you handle Wish? Because it sounds like free +5 to every stat, which sounds alittle broken but you might have to run that by the forums. It sounds like your taking out an important balancing mechanic.

Either way this is a system to make the game more fun, and if your players are sitting and calculating when the optimal time to open that treasure chest is they prolly aren't having fun.

[ffone]

Remember there are 4 members in the party sometimes more so one craft doesn't affect it a whole lot. Plus if you look at the value of the items their wealth is higher than it should be. I don't know how this isn't fair?

So how does your solution - to reduce the party's loot haul (and thus the noncrafters' wealth as well as the crafters')- help 'fairness'?

Sounds like you're arguing for a solution more like what I suggested (increase the % cost to craft).



Also it encourages the crafter to craft for everyone not just himself since it is such a huge advantage to the party.

But how dos *your* solution encourage it?

Everything we know about player psychology suggests the reverse - since you penalize the party (including the crafter) for item creation, the crafter who make things for his buddies is now making a bigger sacrifice.



At the same time what is your party crafting that it is setting them so far behind? I have never seen a crafter go a full levels worth of exp behind before except in epic situations where the character didn't plan on leveling anyways.


Wait - but you originally brought up the case where the crafter *is* a level behind b/c of crafting; that was the whole point of your solution. If the crafter never actually has an encounter where he's at a lower level, then it's all moot.

Or if you refer here to being a 'whole' leve behind XP wise (say a delta of 15,000 XP at 15th level), why does that matter? This sounds like a straw man / irrelevance.



Your talking about metagaming like it is a bad thing. It is a double edge sword but it's very important. I metagame when I look at the other players in my party to see what I should play. There are some cons when characters start remembering Monsters stat blocks or try and calculate save DCs.

That's irrelevant. What I'm referring to is the kind fo fiat DMing where players realize that what they do, in-character, will have effects on the game world *not* through logical-in-game reasons, but b/c of the way the DM handles things. In fact you're making Schroinger's treasure chests where how much they contain depends on whether the party opening them spent all their XP on leveling vs crafting.



Also I am not introducing #2. It's a natural consequence of this game, if you play by WBL then your level determines the wealth you get. Change your level and your treasure will change too.

Wrong.

You can track WBL without inducing that type of metagaming. It's simple. The campaign starts at a certain level, and the treasure that will be found from various points / encounters is a function of what you already designed (and just happens to roughly track WBL)....but if the party deviates from their expected level increases by crafting, etc., then you *don't* change it. (And it's hardly necessary to plan out every gold piece; this is what the 'treasure level' tables etc. are for, or you just peg a total gp value for loot you design yourself.)




Your solution is destroy crafting and change the cost of every item?? My solution is just use a WBL averaging system that takes crafting into account. But your so scared that one character maybe being a level behind is going to hose the parties loot. I have never had this complaint from a player but I have had the complaint that crafting can throw off WBL.


I didn't actually say my solution is better than the core rules, just that it's preferable to yours, b/c

1. it attributes extra cost to the guy actually crafting (and usually, getting the benefit) - not his buddies. (And if he's crafting for his buddies, they can pitch in extra or whatever they decide in-character.)
2. it doen't induce metagaming or turn treasure chests into Schrodinger boxes

In other words, my point is "if you must nerf crafting, here's a simpler and preferable way," as well as "since increasing the % cost of crafting is closely related to another optional houserule for gp/xp substitution, which has its own motivations- the XP is a River phenomenon - I'll mention that."

How am I 'destroying crafting'? You said you thought crafting was too powerful and that the wealth increase needed to be toned down. I showed a way to do that. Which method tones it down more just depends on the numbers (how much you lower treasure rewards, vs how much I increase the % of market price that the cost is), and yours has less preferable side effects.

Your tone is designed to make me sound paranoid or 'scared' or draconian or something. But think quantitatively: how much you nerf crafting with either rule is a function of th numbers.



Sounds like you just don't like the XP system in general.

Um, where did I say that? I just pointed out that players can game it. This is not a new observation - google "XP is a River" for a good thread on it .



That's fine, but most players do.

Well of course they do, b/c they can game it.



Also Leap Frogging is 1 in a million with perfect conditions where one player is literally a level behind but not even a handful of exp behind.

Irrelevant; the point is, you catch up (the odds of leapfrogging are higher than you think, but it doesn't recall matter if they do, since they'll eventually leapfrog back). XP costs in the long run are free.



And I just wouldn't allow that.

OK, so more DM fiat, great.



But for bonus funzies

I gather you tend to use this word when you believe you're about to make a really awesome point.



at the end, in your no XP game

What? Where did I say I do a no XP game? This is your "bonuses funzies at the end"-drumrolled point?



how do you handle Wish? Because it sounds like free +5 to every stat, which sounds alittle broken but you might have to run that by the forums. It sounds like your taking out an important balancing mechanic.

First, I never mentioned subbing gp for XP in spels with XP costs, only item crafting. You have a veritable farm field of straw men in your post.

Second, you picked a terrific example of how allowing substitution of gp for xp *does* make sense.

The manuals/tomes in the core Wondrous Items allow the same stat increases at a cost of 27,500 gp for point. At the 1:5 xp/gp conversion factor I mentioned, using Wish would cost 25,000 gp if you allowed the substitution. The ratio of this ant the 27,500 gp number is 10:11, very close, and much closer than the 1:2 premium that potions have over scrolls (potions, like manuals/tomes, can be used by anyone.) A scroll of Wish is also close at 28,825 gp.

In fact, if you look at the item crafting details fo the manuals/tomes, they use Wish or Miracle, suggesting the 1:5 version is probably precisely why the designers priced the manuals/tomes where they did. Note that in the item crafting costs, almost all the cost is the XP rather than gp. 5,100 XP per point in this case. So it's like having a 2% premium (over casting Wish) on being able to put the spell into an item. Much milder than potion rules, perhaps b/c of the 6 day reading time.

You may very well be right that being able to buy the XP for a stat-boosting Wish is broken - but if so, that's not a problem with the houserule I suggested (oh wait, I didn't, you brought it up, I only did for item crafting), it's a problem with the existence of the manuals/tomes and scrolls of Wish. And if you don't like those, well, you can just ban them by Rule Zero, but your complaint i snot worth gp:xp conversion specifically.




Either way this is a system to make the game more fun, and if your players are sitting and calculating when the optimal time to open that treasure chest is they prolly aren't having fun.

That's not only a straw man, but projection. *Your* houserule is the one which would induce that behavior (the aforementioned Schrodinger chests where the loot you give depend on the party's average level at that moment). Mine specifically avoids that by using an in-character mechanism (crafting rules).

It's amazing how much of your post argues against your own proposal and for mine (this point, the point about fairness, the example of Wish). Humorously enough - and I understand that, for psychological reasons, you won't actually write it down for me or others to read - you appear to be actually convincing yourself of my original points, while attributing all the downsides of your original proposal to me. It's quite common psychologically (assuming the preferable stance but swapping credit and blame about whose it was) but it's fine! Coming to the best conclusion about the actual subject material is the important thing, and some people are much better at doing it when they feel they can 'own' it. Since you appear to actually agree with me on the substance (you just don't realize it yet) this is my last post in this thread.

[Aemoh87]

I feel that you have missed the general idea of what I am talking about.

DnD is a game. People expect certain things out of games, to be more exact rules. Games that do not involve a physical skill often involve skill with rules. Therefore since there is no running in DND it is an exercise in Metagaming.

Create craft so it is not a huge advantage but the disadvantage is only present with excessive use and you stabilize your game (my rules still leaves craft a advantage as it could give a party double wealth). I am just giving players crafting cost to WBL and using it with a averaged party WBL. Which is all A-Okay as written. No changes needed. No house rules. No straw men.

If you have a different idea it prolly means it works for you. Different groups play different, if selfishness is a problem in your groups you may have to rule with that in mind.