Range Increment for Colossal Whip?

[Sims]

Hey guys, I was reading up on Whips and couldn't find anything on the range. At first I thought it doubled per size, but I read a Balors Whip is only 20 ft, and not 30 ft as I had thought.

So whats the pattern? And what would it be for Colossal. (Really Im using a Scourge, which is a spiked whip, but you may not be familiar with it, so I just put Whip instead.)

[The Glyphstone]

It's 15ft, or normal for the creature of that type. Whips are really weird weapons, and require houseruling if you want to change the size of the wielder.

The weapon size has nothing to do with the weapon reach, though, that's entirely based on creature size. A Balor has a 20ft. reach with its whip because whips are Reach weapons, and the Balor's natural reach is 10ft. Doubled, that's 20ft, which is more than the 15ft. standard for a whip.

A Colossal creature has a reach of 25ft. so with a Whip it would reach 50ft.

[Greenish]

The weapon size has nothing to do with the weapon reachExcept that weapons too small will lose the reach property.

So, amusingly enough, a medium-sized whip has a longer (or the same) reach when wielded by a medium character than when wielded by a large one. Maybe.

[Necroticplague]

Whips aren't reach weapons. Their weapons with 15 ft reach. The difference is that a whips amount it increases doesn't scale with your reach. A fine creature using using a whip has 15 ft reach with it, while a large creature would have 25 ft (10 nat+15 whip).

[The Glyphstone]

Whips aren't reach weapons. Their weapons with 15 ft reach. The difference is that a whips amount it increases doesn't scale with your reach. A fine creature using using a whip has 15 ft reach with it, while a large creature would have 25 ft (10 nat+15 whip).

That doesn't add up. By your numbers, the Medium creature with a whip would have a 20ft. reach (5 nat +15 whip). So if anything, a Whip adds +10 ft. not +15ft.

And yes, whips are Reach weapons.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip



In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

[Thurbane]

Increasing range increments by size was something dropped from 3.0 to 3.5, I believe. I'm not sure if 3.0 counted whips as ranged weapons for this purpose...

[Mutazoia]

Easiest answer is: Natural reach (if any) + whip length = total reach (as stated above). As for increments... total reach divided by 1/4 = range increments (short/med/long/extreme). I usually house rule a -4 penalty (cumulative) for Medium to extreme range unless the character has put points into a whip skill, in which case the penalty drops to -2 (cumulative) from long and extreme. (Will some times negate those penalty's with a successful difficult skill check.) Whips are not easy to use.

[Veyr]

There is no Whip skill. Using a Whip without taking nonproficiency penalties requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip), and the feat entails all necessary training to use the Whip as advertised. Considering the massive penalties taken when using a Whip, houseruling in yet more strikes me as a poor decision.

Anyway, normal Reach weapons double your reach, but do not let you threaten within your natural reach. Some Reach weapons, such as the Spiked Chain, double your reach, and still let you attack inside your natural reach.

An appropriately-sized Whip allows a Medium creature (natural reach: 5 ft.) to attack up to 15 ft. away, while still attacking within double and normal reach (that is, squares 5 ft. and 10 ft. away, respectively). That is, it triples your natural reach. I think the only sensible way to handle this on scaling creatures is to continue the trend, and always triple the reach. Whips are such awful weapons, it seems as if it wouldn't matter anyway.

[Mutazoia]

There is no Whip skill. Using a Whip without taking nonproficiency penalties requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip), and the feat entails all necessary training to use the Whip as advertised.

A rule written by some one who has never used a whip :smallsmile: Myself I grant the ability to not kill yourself with the EWP and do normal strikes at close to medium range.

If you want to wrap that whip around a targets hand and pull his weapon aside, or Indiana Jone's it around a roof beam to swing like a monkey, you need to be able to do more than just snap it. That takes SKILL so as I said...I make my players take a whip skill if they want to use one.

What you do (or do not do) in your games is entirely up to you :smallsmile:
My post is how I handle whip's and range increments.

[Greenish]

If you want to wrap that whip around a targets hand and pull his weapon aside, or Indiana Jone's it around a roof beam to swing like a monkey, you need to be able to do more than just snap it. That takes SKILL so as I said...I make my players take a whip skill if they want to use one.You do realize, I hope, that a feat represents a far more significant investment of resources than a bunch of skill points.

Swinging about with a whip is a skill trick based on Use Rope, for the record, and disarm works just as normal.

[Veyr]

A rule written by some one who has never used a whip :smallsmile: Myself I grant the ability to not kill yourself with the EWP and do normal strikes at close to medium range.

If you want to wrap that whip around a targets hand and pull his weapon aside, or Indiana Jone's it around a roof beam to swing like a monkey, you need to be able to do more than just snap it. That takes SKILL so as I said...I make my players take a whip skill if they want to use one.

What you do (or do not do) in your games is entirely up to you :smallsmile:
My post is how I handle whip's and range increments.
And I'm telling you that this is explicitly contrary to the rules and intent of the feat system. The taking of a feat represents intense skill and practice. Feats are big deals, both in terms of flavor and mechanics: you do not get many of them, and they represents large portions of your character's skills. Do you think that the Spiked Chain of all things requires less skills than a Whip?

Killing yourself (or anyone else) with a whip is preposterously unlikely anyway. A bullwhip has no ability to cause serious injury, it can only cause (extremely painful) lacerations. In theory someone could bleed out eventually, but that is not going to happen at a timescale relevant to combat. As a matter of fact, I do know a fair amount about whips as a weapon, and I object to your assumption that I do not. I am merely stating that be that as it may, the feat still represents more than enough investment of a character's ability to represent learning how to actually use a whip effectively (which is to say, not quite as the rules in 3.5 say the whip works, but that's another matter).

[Mutazoia]

You do realize, I hope, that a feat represents a far more significant investment of resources than a bunch of skill points.

Swinging about with a whip is a skill trick based on Use Rope, for the record, and disarm works just as normal.

*sigh* and you do realize, I hope, that not every one uses the rules exactly as written, and if they want to and or change things then they are free to do so?
And for the record...try disarming some one with a sword, and then try it with a whip...see if you can do it the same way with both. I bet you that you can't.

Yes feats represent a more significant investment that skill points. But that doesn't mean that you blow a feat and are instantly the best (blank) on the smegging planet. That's the major problem I've always had with EWP's. Just because you blow a feat doesn't instantly make you a grand master of that weapon. It takes years of skill and practice. Look at any exhibition shooter alive today. There are marksmen that can shoot a smegging asprin out of the air, do you think they got that good the moment they learned how to hold the darn gun?

Again...I'll run my games my way..you rules lawyer until the cows come home...we'll both have fun either way.:smallsmile:

[Worira]

Your insistence that skill with a weapon can only be represented with skill points is perplexing to me.

[Greenish]

*sigh* and you do realize, I hope, that not every one uses the rules exactly as written, and if they want to and or change things then they are free to do so?By all means do feel free to write your alternative skill system up in the homebrew section.

Weapon use, as written, is a function of several variables, among them the basic proficiency (presented by class/race proficiencies and the proficiency feats), BAB (presenting your competence at fighting) and relevant ability score. You can most certainly make up an alternative system that uses skill points and skills, but few people here would find it relevant for discussion.

[Mutazoia]

And I'm telling you that this is explicitly contrary to the rules and intent of the feat system. The taking of a feat represents intense skill and practice. Feats are big deals, both in terms of flavor and mechanics: you do not get many of them, and they represents large portions of your character's skills. Do you think that the Spiked Chain of all things requires less skills than a Whip?

Killing yourself (or anyone else) with a whip is preposterously unlikely anyway. A bullwhip has no ability to cause serious injury, it can only cause (extremely painful) lacerations. In theory someone could bleed out eventually, but that is not going to happen at a timescale relevant to combat. As a matter of fact, I do know a fair amount about whips as a weapon, and I object to your assumption that I do not. I am merely stating that be that as it may, the feat still represents more than enough investment of a character's ability to represent learning how to actually use a whip effectively (which is to say, not quite as the rules in 3.5 say the whip works, but that's another matter).

I admit it is highly unlikely that you will kill yourself with a whip. That was a bit of dramatization. I'll try not to take poetic license again. You CAN however kill some one with a whip (say wrap it around the neck and JERK...I've seen this done (to a rabid animal)).

As I've stated above, I run my games a little different and alter some rules based on what I think they should be. You run them just as written if you like. Nobody says we have to run things exactly the same.

[Mutazoia]

You can most certainly make up an alternative system that uses skill points and skills, but few people here would find it relevant for discussion.

Well the OP was about Range Increment's for a whip. Now the 3.5 PHB does not list range increments for a whip. So in order to pose an answer to said question one must homebrew somthing, am I correct? I proposed a simple formula to address this. Then mentioned that I impose a few more rules and penalty's (after all what use is having range increments if the hitting at extreme range is just as easy as hitting at short range?) and then caught the excrement storm about how my rules suck and what a monster I am for changing the rules. (ok dramatization there but still...)

The other posts seemed to want to deal with reach...which is different from Range increments.

[Curmudgeon]

And yes, whips are Reach weapons.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip
True. However, that doesn't mean that whips will ever let you attack at more than 15' distance, regardless of the creature's natural reach.
Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach Since a whip clearly doesn't double natural reach for Small and Medium size characters, it strikes me as unreasonable to assume that it would double natural reach for larger size characters.

[Greenish]

Well the OP was about Range Increment's for a whip. Now the 3.5 PHB does not list range increments for a whip.It should be fairly obvious that OP meant the reach of a whip, given that only thrown and projectile weapons have range increments in 3.5 (as opposed to 3.0, where I believe whip indeed acted as a projectile weapon for some purposes).

So in order to pose an answer to said question one must homebrew somthing, am I correct?You're not, and even if you were, it would not mean that one has to change the whole basis of how weapons and attacking work in 3.5.

I proposed a simple formula to address this.There's nothing simple in your formula, which looks like a bunch of purposeless complications, especially when brought up outside the context of your general revamps to the core rules.

(after all what use is having range increments if the hitting at extreme range is just as easy as hitting at short range?)Range increments, as mentioned, are used for ranged weapons. Even if one's melee reach extends to 100 feet, there are no penalties, by the usual rules that are taken as the basics of our discourse here because bringing in everyone's houserules would complicate the matters and erode what common ground can be found (and that was needlessly long sentence, I must be drunk).
and then caught the excrement storm about how my rules suck and what a monster I am for changing the rules. (ok dramatization there but still...)You caught a bunch of replies pointing out how far your houserules and the basic design principles behind them are from the standard game, which is a valid point to raise and hardly something worth playing a martyr over.

The other posts seemed to want to deal with reach...which is different from Range increments.Ref. my first point in this post. It's easy to confuse similar technical terms. For example, when did you last devote a thought to the difference between "visible universe" and "observable universe"?

(Okay, I'm rambling again.)

[Mutazoia]

It should be fairly obvious that OP meant the reach of a whip, given that only thrown and projectile weapons have range increments in 3.5 (as opposed to 3.0, where I believe whip indeed acted as a projectile weapon for some purposes).
You're not, and even if you were, it would not mean that one has to change the whole basis of how weapons and attacking work in 3.5.
There's nothing simple in your formula, which looks like a bunch of purposeless complications, especially when brought up outside the context of your general revamps to the core rules.
Range increments, as mentioned, are used for ranged weapons. Even if one's melee reach extends to 100 feet, there are no penalties, by the usual rules that are taken as the basics of our discourse here because bringing in everyone's houserules would complicate the matters and erode what common ground can be found (and that was needlessly long sentence, I must be drunk).You caught a bunch of replies pointing out how far your houserules and the basic design principles behind them are from the standard game, which is a valid point to raise and hardly something worth playing a martyr over.
Ref. my first point in this post. It's easy to confuse similar technical terms. For example, when did you last devote a thought to the difference between "visible universe" and "observable universe"?

(Okay, I'm rambling again.)

I'm not playing Martyr...I honestly don't care if you don't like my added rules or not....I'm just carrying on a discussion.

as for your first point? Area of affect is quite different from areas of effectiveness. An explosion may have an area of affect of 50 feet, but will lose effectiveness the further one gets from the center point. A long weapon, such as a whip, while not a ranged weapon is harder to use the further out your target is. It is relatively easy to hit an opponent at close range, not so much at max range. This is a flaw in the PHB as written. Any weapon over 5' in length becomes harder to use the further out you attempt to strike with it. Take a 10 foot pole and try to pool que some one with it. The further they are from you the easier it is for them to dodge it. The further an opponent is from a person with a whip, the harder it is going to be to swing it around and land the tiny tip somewhere on your target before they can move. Granted once in motion a whip is blindingly fast and hard to dodge. For general combat I would agree that the normal EWP is fine as written. Its the trick shots and long range combat that I tend to house rule to reflect this.

Reach implies maximum range. A 10' whip has a reach/range of 10' (arm length not withstanding). If one asks about range increments, then one must be curious about breaking down that maximum range (reach) into varying degrees of effectiveness.

If the title of the post had be What's the max range for Colossal whip? or whats the Reach for Colossal whip that would be different.

[Veyr]

I admit it is highly unlikely that you will kill yourself with a whip. That was a bit of dramatization. I'll try not to take poetic license again. You CAN however kill some one with a whip (say wrap it around the neck and JERK...I've seen this done (to a rabid animal)).
That action is not the one indicated by the attack action in 3.5. That would be a special use of a grapple, or perhaps a coup d'grace. At the very least, it's not a function of whipping.

Actually whipping someone will be excruciating, but is extremely unlikely to even draw very much blood. A flogging can be very bloody, but only after extensive whipping. And with a bullwhip (clearly what the 3.5 seems to be attempting to model), the chance of breaking a bone or causing other serious injury is remote at best, even if you're trying. Which is why many who fight with a bullwhip either have a dagger in their off hand, or have a downward-facing dagger-blade extending from the handle of their whip.


Speaking of issues with the 3.5 whip (and this is completely separate from my discussion with Mutazoia), it's absurd that they do not threaten squares (and therefore cannot take AoOs) — sudden attacks against foes attempting to reach the whip-wielder is one of the very few advantages that a bullwhip actually has in a fight. The inability to damage armored opponents or deal lethal damage are appropriate. The inability to threaten squares is not.


As I've stated above, I run my games a little different and alter some rules based on what I think they should be. You run them just as written if you like. Nobody says we have to run things exactly the same.
Your statement was issued in the 3.5 section of these forums, and stated a single houserule without any background. I have no idea how you run your games, but apparently there is an extensive system of changes that may make such a rule relevant — I would, however, contest that if this is the case, your games are no longer anything really approaching 3.5 but would probably fall more into D20 Other. Because nothing in a 3.5-like game would make an entire feat not enough of a cost for using the Whip without penalty.

[Mutazoia]

Your statement was issued in the 3.5 section of these forums, and stated a single houserule without any background. I have no idea how you run your games, but apparently there is an extensive system of changes that may make such a rule relevant — I would, however, contest that if this is the case, your games are no longer anything really approaching 3.5 but would probably fall more into D20 Other. Because nothing in a 3.5-like game would make an entire feat not enough of a cost for using the Whip without penalty.

Granted. I was merely attempting to define a set of range increments for said whip. The mention of the house rules I use was an aside. I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition :smallsmile:

I merely respond to responses as I feel that making trick shots requires more skill that the normal use of a weapon requires. I know snipers that can't shoot Aspirin tablets out of the air, but I've seen exhibition shooters that can. I would say that the exhibition shooter has put extra time and skill into the weapon that a normally proficient person would. The penalties I apply ...screw it...bored now

[Veyr]

I'd be all for rules for doing trick shots and things (and note that 3.5 does have a few — there's a whip-based Skill Trick in Complete Scoundrel, for instance), I was mostly objecting to the addition of more penalties for a whip-user on top of the already considerable ones in place, even after they'd paid the feat for proficiency. Proficiency means proficiency, means not taking attack or damage roll penalties.

Of course, you're right about it having been an aside and this being a bit of a derail; I apologize for that. It's primarily because as someone who thinks whips are cool as weapons and is annoyed how difficult/impossible 3.5 makes them to use effectively, I was appalled to hear of someone hitting them with yet more penalties. Maybe the other changes to your system are sufficient to off-set it, but at least in 3.5 the skill point tax would reduce the Whip from "probably strictly sub-optimal in all cases" to "don't even bother considering it, there's nothing there worth the cost".

[Mutazoia]

I was appalled to hear of someone hitting them with yet more penalties. Maybe the other changes to your system are sufficient to off-set it, but at least in 3.5 the skill point tax would reduce the Whip from "probably strictly sub-optimal in all cases" to "don't even bother considering it, there's nothing there worth the cost".

Well that's why I added a whip skill to offset those penalties, to show that some one has taken the time to master such a tricky weapon...and then only if one were using the added range increments. As is..with out using increments you are correct..the rules are fine as written. As for the whip as a weapon...the damage they do is abysmal enough to discourage their use as a primary weapon. I've really only seen them used as flair.

[pres_man]

Hey guys, I was reading up on Whips and couldn't find anything on the range. At first I thought it doubled per size, but I read a Balors Whip is only 20 ft, and not 30 ft as I had thought.

So whats the pattern? And what would it be for Colossal. (Really Im using a Scourge, which is a spiked whip, but you may not be familiar with it, so I just put Whip instead.)

Well it is not 100% clear as some of the relevant posts above showed.
For small and medium creatures we see it gives 15 ft reach, this is 10 ft more than standard reach of these creatures and 5 ft more than the typical reach weapon for that size.

The other source we have is a balor. A large creature with a normal 10 ft, but with a whip it has a 20 ft reach.

So what can we draw from these? A few interpretations:
A)The whip increases the normal range by only 10 ft no matter the size.
B)The whip increases the range like other reach weapons (double normal reach), except for the special cases of the small and medium whip.
C)The whip triples the range, except in the special case of the Balor.

Personally, I would go with the (B) interpretation.